MSU in the Crosshairs - Lawsuit Alleges MSU Encouraged Woman not to Report Rape by Basketball Players; Ohio State University Doctor Abused 177 Athlete (1 Viewer)

[Politician Spock]

Do you think the Civil Rights Office is still going to bring the thunder? It seems like DeVos (and the Trump administration) have ... softened the civil rights investigations of the Dep't of Ed and DOJ.

Given this is likely to be the biggest Title IX violation in history, I think they have to. If they don't, then everyone can pretty much ignore Title IX moving forward. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Maybe this has been asked already in this thread, if so I apologize: Why did MSU protect Nassar? Was he so great of a doctor that they needed to keep him on staff regardless of his criminal activities? 
Did he have dirt on the school board members? I don't understand why they didn't just fire him and hire someone else that's not a kid-toucher. Why set aside $10MM for a predator?

I’m still flabbergasted that people don’t realize that the problem is primarily that people don’t believe women who report being raped, harassed, or molested.

That’s it.  It’s pretty much just pure sexist drivel.  You want to know why Nassar wrote that his accusers just wanted money and attention to the judge?  Because that’s probably how he’s gotten out of these accusations for decades.  Men in this country don’t believe that women get harassed, groped, molested, and raped at anywhere near the level they actually are in this country.  They just don’t believe women.  They think women are making it up.  That’s what MSU decided here.  

 

[tri-man 47]

I have absolutely no connection to MSU, aside from knowing a couple of alumni.  My attitude doesn't have anything to do with circling any wagons.  Where I'm coming from is that we have recently seen a large number of organizations that have coddled/tolerated sexual predators, from Miramax to Fox News to Congress.  In literally every other case, we all agree that the right thing to do is to go after the wrong-doers either through prosecution or by driving them out of the workplace and rendering them publicly radioactive.  Nobody proposes nuking the entire organization.  The sole exception is when college sports are involved, in which case people strangely insist on making it a "sports story" when the sports side of things is actually tangential.  I mean, this one particular scandal happens to involve MSU athletics and USA Gymnastics, but you we've seen the same story a bunch of times now in other contexts and ought to realize that this is an issue that goes way beyond the sports world.  

IK, you thoughtful comments come from a different perspective, then, than the harsh tone of this article now on SI's site.  It states, in part:

"Burn it all down. That is the calm and reasoned conclusion to which I have come as one horror story after another unspooled in the courtroom. Nobody employed in the upper echelons at USA Gymnastics, or at the United States Olympic Committee, or at Michigan State University should still have a job. If accessorial or conspiracy charges plausibly can be lodged against those people, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Those people should come out of civil courts wearing barrels. Their descendants should be answering motions in the 22nd Century. In fact, I can argue convincingly that none of those three institutions should continue to exist in its current form. USA Gymnastics and the USOC should lose their non-profit status forthwith. Michigan State should lose its status within the NCAA for at least five years. American gymnastics is no longer a sport. It’s a conspiracy of pedophiles and their enablers."

 

[Henry Ford]

Given this is likely to be the biggest Title IX violation in history, I think they have to. If they don't, then everyone can pretty much ignore Title IX moving forward. 

At some point there will be a version of this thread in the politics forum.  Might even be this thread. 

I look forward to the discussion on whether and how this was handled. 

 

[Henry Ford]

IK, you thoughtful comments come from a different perspective, then, than the harsh tone of this article now on SI's site.  It states, in part:

"Burn it all down. That is the calm and reasoned conclusion to which I have come as one horror story after another unspooled in the courtroom. Nobody employed in the upper echelons at USA Gymnastics, or at the United States Olympic Committee, or at Michigan State University should still have a job. If accessorial or conspiracy charges plausibly can be lodged against those people, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Those people should come out of civil courts wearing barrels. Their descendants should be answering motions in the 22nd Century. In fact, I can argue convincingly that none of those three institutions should continue to exist in its current form. USA Gymnastics and the USOC should lose their non-profit status forthwith. Michigan State should lose its status within the NCAA for at least five years. American gymnastics is no longer a sport. It’s a conspiracy of pedophiles and their enablers."

Uh huh.  “Gymnastics.”  

Just wait.  Every single sport that pushes underage performers - ice skating, swimming, diving for example - is probably going to have one of these type of scandals at some point.  

When you have a “type a” personality endeavor like international sports (or acting, or the music industry) where the main performers are children pulled away from their parents and told to act like adults, you’re going to have massive abuses like this. 

 

[DA RAIDERS]

It pisses me off that we, the tax payers, now get to pay for this m'fer for the rest of his life. 

 

[culdeus]

Maybe this has been asked already in this thread, if so I apologize: Why did MSU protect Nassar? Was he so great of a doctor that they needed to keep him on staff regardless of his criminal activities? 
Did he have dirt on the school board members? I don't understand why they didn't just fire him and hire someone else that's not a kid-toucher. Why set aside $10MM for a predator?

And he wasn't even a real doctor, he was an osteopath which is basically something above a witch doctor and below a physical therapist.  

 

[Henry Ford]

And he wasn't even a real doctor, he was an osteopath which is basically something above a witch doctor and below a physical therapist.  

That's not an accurate description of a D.O.

 

[msudaisy26]

It pisses me off that we, the tax payers, now get to pay for this m'fer for the rest of his life. 

I used to look at this way, now I try to look at we are paying the wages of the guards all the way up to the warden and their job is to keep this guy miserable as humanly possible for the rest of his life. I hope they earn every penny too. 

 

[skillz]

Now the investigations of just how bad the MSU administration failed begin. 

By an Attorney General who will be running for Governor too.  He will have some low hanging fruit to pick and use as part of his gubernatorial campaign. 

 

[skillz]

It pisses me off that we, the tax payers, now get to pay for this m'fer for the rest of his life. 

If they put him in the general population he wouldn't be around long. 

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

This guy is an ####### no doubt and should never see the light of day.   And, hopefully, some inmates will administer daily "exams" that will release pressure and improve his performance during his incarceration. 

The judge I guess wanted her 10 minutes of fame with her speech?  Just read the sentence lady.   

Oh, I hope he gets butthole raped on the daily.  

 

[bro1ncos]

There needs to be special exceptions to the "cruel and unusual punishment" ideal for monsters like him. 

 

[Tom Servo]

By an Attorney General who will be running for Governor too.  He will have some low hanging fruit to pick and use as part of his gubernatorial campaign. 

If he can bring home the bacon severed heads, he could win in a cakewalk.

 

[skillz]

Do you think the Civil Rights Office is still going to bring the thunder? It seems like DeVos (and the Trump administration) have ... softened the civil rights investigations of the Dep't of Ed and DOJ.

It doesn't matter what the government agencies do since MSU is already being sued by the victims in court.  I think the last count is 150 lawsuits.  The plaintiff's lawyers are going to fill any void left by what the DOE or DOJ don't do. 

 

[whoknew]

I'd prefer we lay off the "this guy should be raped and assaulted in prison" stuff.

He's going to prison for the rest of his life. That's sufficient. 

Rape is wrong. Regardless of the victim.

 

[EYLive]

If they put him in the general population he wouldn't be around long. 

That's what I figure. If other inmates know about him... bad news.

 

[TobiasFunke]

IK, you thoughtful comments come from a different perspective, then, than the harsh tone of this article now on SI's site.  It states, in part:

"Burn it all down. That is the calm and reasoned conclusion to which I have come as one horror story after another unspooled in the courtroom. Nobody employed in the upper echelons at USA Gymnastics, or at the United States Olympic Committee, or at Michigan State University should still have a job. If accessorial or conspiracy charges plausibly can be lodged against those people, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Those people should come out of civil courts wearing barrels. Their descendants should be answering motions in the 22nd Century. In fact, I can argue convincingly that none of those three institutions should continue to exist in its current form. USA Gymnastics and the USOC should lose their non-profit status forthwith. Michigan State should lose its status within the NCAA for at least five years. American gymnastics is no longer a sport. It’s a conspiracy of pedophiles and their enablers."

I love Charlie Pierce and I agree with a lot of what he wrote, but not the bolded. I'm not a fan of the NCAA as a substitute for law enforcement or a vehicle by which angry people can obtain their pound of flesh. The NCAA has its own (stupid) rules. If someone violates those (stupid) rules it can dole out (stupid) punishments in accordance with its (stupid) guidance and history. There's no reason to punish some 19 year old volleyball player or basketball fan or any other innocent party for the sins of people they've never met and have nothing to do with. There are much bigger fish to fry here.

In retrospect I don't think the PSU NCAA punishment was justified, but this isn't even that. As far as I can tell the cover-up was not in any way a product of the University placing too big an emphasis on athletics and people not wanting to upset that apple cart. This was more about ignorance and gender/age bias and undeserved deference to medical authority, which are much bigger problems and should be the focus. Am I missing something?

 

[simey]

The judge I guess wanted her 10 minutes of fame with her speech?  Just read the sentence lady.   

I don't believe her goal was to get 10 minutes of fame. 

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

I don't believe her goal was to get 10 minutes of fame. 

Yeah she wanted her 10 minutes when she stated, "I just signed your death warrant!"      

 

[Politician Spock]

I love Charlie Pierce and I agree with a lot of what he wrote, but not the bolded. I'm not a fan of the NCAA as a substitute for law enforcement or a vehicle by which angry people can obtain their pound of flesh. The NCAA has its own (stupid) rules. If someone violates those (stupid) rules it can dole out (stupid) punishments in accordance with its (stupid) guidance and history. There's no reason to punish some 19 year old volleyball player or basketball fan or any other innocent party for the sins of people they've never met and have nothing to do with. There are much bigger fish to fry here.

In retrospect I don't think the PSU NCAA punishment was justified, but this isn't even that. As far as I can tell the cover-up was not in any way a product of the University placing too big an emphasis on athletics and people not wanting to upset that apple cart. This was more about ignorance and gender/age bias and undeserved deference to medical authority, which are much bigger problems and should be the focus. Am I missing something?

The NCAA views intercollegiate competition as a privilege for each member school, not a right.

In order to be granted the privilege of competing, the NCAA requires certain standards to be upheld by the schools.

Among these is the NCAA's Sexual Violence Policy

 

[Henry Ford]

Yeah she wanted her 10 minutes when she stated, "I just signed your death warrant!"      

I like how you added an exclamation point when it doesn't fit at all with her tone.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The NCAA views intercollegiate competition as a privilege for each member school, not a right.

In order to be granted the privilege of competing, the NCAA requires certain standards to be upheld by the schools.

Among these is the NCAA's Sexual Violence Policy

I don't see a violation there, but feel free to walk me through it. What rule was broken and by whom?

Generally speaking I don't like the NCAA as a governing body and I think it has way too much power and is ill-equipped to handle anything that happens off the field.  We have government for that. 99% of any punishment the NCAA might dole out would be borne by innocent people.

 

[Politician Spock]

I don't see a violation there, but feel free to walk me through it. What rule was broken and by whom?

Generally speaking I don't like the NCAA as a governing body and I think it has way too much power and is ill-equipped to handle anything that happens off the field.  We have government for that. 99% of any punishment the NCAA might dole out would be borne by innocent people.

From: http://www.ncaa.org/governance/committees/executive-committee-statement-sexual-violence-prevention-and-complaint-resolution

At the meeting of the Executive Committee of the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) on August 8, 2014, the following Resolution was proposed and unanimously approved by the Executive Committee.

WHEREAS  NCAA Constitution Article 4.1.2 charges the NCAA Executive Committee with identifying core issues that affect the Association as a whole and with overseeing Association-wide issues and ensuring that each division operates consistent with the basic purposes, fundamental policies and general principle of the Association;

WHEREAS the Executive Committee regularly takes action to preserve and enhance student-athlete health, safety and well-being and promote nondiscriminatory and effective learning and competitive environments;

WHEREAS NCAA Constitution Article 2.2.3 requires each member institution to protect the health of, and provide a safe environment for, each of its participating student-athletes;

WHEREAS the U.S. Department of Education Office for Civil Rights has issued guidance related to sexual harassment, bullying and violence against all students under Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (Title IX), 20 U.S.C. §§ 1681 et seq, which applies to all educational activities, including athletics programs, of higher education institutions receiving federal financial assistance and which states that sexual violence includes rape, sexual assault, sexual battery, sexual coercion and gender-based harassment.

Now, Therefore, Be It Resolved, that the Executive Committee recognizes the importance of addressing the abhorrent societal issue of sexual violence, especially when it occurs on our campuses.  The Executive Committee acknowledges that it is our members’ collective responsibility to maintain campuses as safe places to learn, live, work and play.  The Executive Committee expects NCAA members to ensure that the values and principles articulated in the Constitution to protect the health and safety of student athletes, operate fairly and ethically, and further to assure that student athletes are neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by special treatment and that institutions' athletics departments must:

• Comply with campus authorities and ensure that all athletics staff, coaches, administrators and student-athletes maintain a hostile-free environment for all student athletes regardless of gender or sexual orientation; know and follow campus protocol for reporting incidents of sexual violence; report immediately any suspected sexual violence to appropriate campus offices for investigation and adjudication;
  
• Educate all student-athletes, coaches and staff about sexual violence prevention, intervention and response;
  
• Assure compliance with all federal and applicable state regulations related to sexual violence prevention and response; and
  
• Cooperate with but not manage, direct, control or interfere with college or university investigations into allegations of sexual violence ensuring that investigations involving student-athletes and athletics department staff are managed in the same manner as all other students and staff on campus.
  

 

[TobiasFunke]

 The Executive Committee expects NCAA members to ensure that the values and principles articulated in the Constitution to protect the health and safety of student athletes, operate fairly and ethically, and further to assure that student athletes are neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by special treatment and that institutions' athletics departments must:

• Comply with campus authorities and ensure that all athletics staff, coaches, administrators and student-athletes maintain a hostile-free environment for all student athletes regardless of gender or sexual orientation; know and follow campus protocol for reporting incidents of sexual violence; report immediately any suspected sexual violence to appropriate campus offices for investigation and adjudication;
  

Thanks. Seems like what you bolded in this section would be the applicable language. But I'm not sure if that's an actual NCAA rule or just a finding/resolution by the Executive Committee.

 

[Politician Spock]

Thanks. Seems like what you bolded in this section would be the applicable language. But I'm not sure if that's an actual NCAA rule or just a finding/resolution by the Executive Committee.

I think this one is equally important:

• Assure compliance with all federal and applicable state regulations related to sexual violence prevention and response
  

The response of numerous employees in the athletic department are very likely to have violated Title IX federal regulations. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

I think this one is equally important:

• Assure compliance with all federal and applicable state regulations related to sexual violence prevention and response
  

The response of numerous employees in the athletic department are very likely to have violated Title IX federal regulations. 

Same problem though, not clear if that's a binding rule or just an "expectation" of the executive committee as set forth in a resolution. 

 

[Politician Spock]

Same problem though, not clear if that's a binding rule or just an "expectation" of the executive committee as set forth in a resolution. 

The 2014 resolution was in response to Penn State suing the NCAA for the penalty they received from the NCAA for Paterno looking the other way from Sandusky's crimes. The intent of the resolution is to communicate to the schools that the NCAA can and will penalize schools who fail to meet these expectations.  

 

[culdeus]

That's not an accurate description of a D.O.

I see, had to go to wiki.

Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine (DOs) are fully licensed physicians who practice in every medical specialty. They provide a full range of services, from prescribing drugs to performing surgery, and they use the latest medical tools. But DOs offer something special—their unique approach to patient care.

I think I get it now.

 

[culdeus]

That's not an accurate description of a D.O.

I see, had to go to wiki.

Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine (DOs) are fully licensed physicians who practice in every medical specialty. They provide a full range of services, from prescribing drugs to performing surgery, and they use the latest medical tools. But DOs offer something special—their unique approach to patient care.

I think I get it now.

 

[Dedfin]

I don't see a violation there, but feel free to walk me through it. What rule was broken and by whom?

Generally speaking I don't like the NCAA as a governing body and I think it has way too much power and is ill-equipped to handle anything that happens off the field.  We have government for that. 99% of any punishment the NCAA might dole out would be borne by innocent people.

Could the NCAA just decide MSU isn't an organization they wish to have a relationship with and remove their membership?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

MSU President resigning.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

MSU President resigning.

Good. Anyone think she is criminally culpable and will be held accountable that way? 

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Good. Anyone think she is criminally culpable and will be held accountable that way? 

No idea.  I hope ahe is found guilty and or liable of everything possibly supported by evidence.

Also reading that she was a loud voice calling for the death penalty for PSU. 

Good idea.  Only that first letter is off a little.

 

[Galileo]

The Raisman clip here in this CNN collection is pretty powerful

 

[Kal El]

No idea.  I hope ahe is found guilty and or liable of everything possibly supported by evidence.

Also reading that she was a loud voice calling for the death penalty for PSU. 

Good idea.  Only that first letter is off a little.

If Penn State didn't get the death penalty, Michigan State won't, either. Everybody in charge at both schools deserves jail time. Maybe it's time for the B1G to kick both out and find new schools.

 

[flranger]

If you have a daughter, I suggest having her watch what was likely his final victim, 15 years old.  Soooo much stronger than Raisman (who was also very strong).  She was amazing.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlqFrgUud6Y

 

[Galileo]

I’m still flabbergasted that people don’t realize that the problem is primarily that people don’t believe women who report being raped, harassed, or molested.

That’s it.  It’s pretty much just pure sexist drivel.  You want to know why Nassar wrote that his accusers just wanted money and attention to the judge?  Because that’s probably how he’s gotten out of these accusations for decades.  Men in this country don’t believe that women get harassed, groped, molested, and raped at anywhere near the level they actually are in this country.  They just don’t believe women.  They think women are making it up.  That’s what MSU decided here.  

I think that is part of the problem, but maybe not the whole story.  Maybe it is just semantics, but I think there is a large population of males that do not interpret some of these abusive behaviors in the same way (do not mistake this statement in any way as justification for such behavior).  I honestly think there are those that just think they are "being a guy"..."this is what guys do"...driven by fantasies, perhaps, that their actions will lead to consensual encounters.   Hell, many guys wish this kind of stuff were happening to them.  How many times do we see reactions to those teacher-student stories where guys proclaim how lucky that victim was...or how they wished it was them in that situation.  Rather than simply not believing women's claims, I think in many situations guys just don't equate some of these abuses as true abuses and end up shrugging it off.     

 

[Underachievers]

MSU President resigning.

Good....now if we could get Oprah and the Hollywood elite who covered for Weinstein to take accountability, we would have hope for the future 

 

[Politician Spock]

No idea.  I hope ahe is found guilty and or liable of everything possibly supported by evidence.

Also reading that she was a loud voice calling for the death penalty for PSU. 

Good idea.  Only that first letter is off a little.

Seriously? 

Good god!

Gotta link?

 

[Politician Spock]

Wait a minute... am I seeing this correctly?

It appears to me that when the NCAA decided to lift the sanctions they issued to Penn State, it was Lou Anna Simon who chaired the NCAA Executive Committee that made that decision to let Penn State off the hook. 

From a September 2013 article: http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/education/penn-state/jerry-sandusky/article42829215.html

"The NCAA will also consider rescinding the postseason bowl ban if Penn State continues to show progress, officials said. That would be an incentive for Penn State to continue its work, said Lou Anna Simon, the chairwoman of the NCAA’s executive committee and the president of Michigan State University."

So Simon not only looked the other way for Nassar, she looked the other way for Penn State too.

 

[msudaisy26]

Wait a minute... am I seeing this correctly?

It appears to me that when the NCAA decided to lift the sanctions they issued to Penn State, it was Lou Anna Simon who chaired the NCAA Executive Committee that made that decision to let Penn State off the hook. 

From a September 2013 article: http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/education/penn-state/jerry-sandusky/article42829215.html

"The NCAA will also consider rescinding the postseason bowl ban if Penn State continues to show progress, officials said. That would be an incentive for Penn State to continue its work, said Lou Anna Simon, the chairwoman of the NCAA’s executive committee and the president of Michigan State University."

So Simon not only looked the other way for Nassar, she looked the other way for Penn State too.

I wouldn't go that far on the Penn State angle. I think I remember a lot of people were on the side of reducing the punishment on Penn State. 

Plus it is a lot different in lowering the punishment after an organization or person shows cause to then looking the other way or helping a pedophile or sex predator. 

 

[Politician Spock]

I wouldn't go that far on the Penn State angle. I think I remember a lot of people were on the side of reducing the punishment on Penn State. 

Plus it is a lot different in lowering the punishment after an organization or person shows cause to then looking the other way or helping a pedophile or sex predator. 

This woman is clearly inept when it comes to handling sexual assault issues. That's not on PSU. That's on her!

 

[Spartans Rule]

Simon's resignation letter released

Key passage here:

As you and many in the Spartan family know, I planned to retire in December 2016, and we had begun a conversation about a smooth transition. Then the Indianapolis Star article appeared about USAG and one of the victims contacted MSU police to file a complaint. The MSU Police investigation commenced. Nassar’s employment was terminated shortly thereafter. Work began within the HealthTeam and other areas of the university to improve safety. Given the challenges, my transition was postponed. I appreciate the support you provided.

Great job with this over the last year! So glad you stayed!

 

[JuniorGong]

Simon's resignation letter released

Key passage here:

Great job with this over the last year! So glad you stayed!

Don’t really care what she said in her letter, just glad she is gone

 

[Henry Ford]

I think that is part of the problem, but maybe not the whole story.  Maybe it is just semantics, but I think there is a large population of males that do not interpret some of these abusive behaviors in the same way (do not mistake this statement in any way as justification for such behavior).  I honestly think there are those that just think they are "being a guy"..."this is what guys do"...driven by fantasies, perhaps, that their actions will lead to consensual encounters.   Hell, many guys wish this kind of stuff were happening to them.  How many times do we see reactions to those teacher-student stories where guys proclaim how lucky that victim was...or how they wished it was them in that situation.  Rather than simply not believing women's claims, I think in many situations guys just don't equate some of these abuses as true abuses and end up shrugging it off.     

Yeah, I think we’re having a semantic difference not a substantive one.  We agree. Saying “oh, she wanted it because I would have wanted it” or “it wasn’t really assault” is included in what I mean. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Holy #### this story is awful. Poor girls. Yes give the US Gymnastics board the Penn State treatment.

 

[belljr]

Was driving my daughter to her winter workouts with her team.  They are all 12 turning 13 this year.

As we are driving I ask her if she knows what it means if someone touches her inappropriately or molests her.

She says yes very quietly, I tell her you tell me or mommy or someone  you trust if someone does something to you that makes you feel uncomfortable or wrong.

That is not your fault.

I can tell she is uncomfortable and she quietly just says - I don't want to get older and have to deal with this.  

I said ME EITHER!!! But for some people it doesn't matter how old you are.

She nodded and said ok. 

If anything good has come from this it has made me want to talk and "comfort" my daughter about this topic.   I'd probably would never have even thought about discussing this before to be honest.   As someone who coaches these female athletes it disgusts me how something like this could happen.  And the extra sad thing is I've known most of these girls for years and little things in the past (like a kid giving a hug goodbye, or sitting next to me on the bench closely etc) has me concerned of the perception of what it means.  :(

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Yeah she wanted her 10 minutes when she stated, "I just signed your death warrant!"      

Or when she said it was an “honor” and a “privilege” to sentence Nassar.

 

[whoknew]

I think that is part of the problem, but maybe not the whole story.  Maybe it is just semantics, but I think there is a large population of males that do not interpret some of these abusive behaviors in the same way (do not mistake this statement in any way as justification for such behavior).  I honestly think there are those that just think they are "being a guy"..."this is what guys do"...driven by fantasies, perhaps, that their actions will lead to consensual encounters.   Hell, many guys wish this kind of stuff were happening to them.  How many times do we see reactions to those teacher-student stories where guys proclaim how lucky that victim was...or how they wished it was them in that situation.  Rather than simply not believing women's claims, I think in many situations guys just don't equate some of these abuses as true abuses and end up shrugging it off.     

There's a really good This American Life about this where a reporter in Australia (weird - This Australian Life, I guess) goes around confronting guys who catcall women. And she finds one guy willing to talk and he catcalls and smacks women on the ### all the time. And he explains that he believes they love it and are flattered by it. And she tells the guy how horrible it is when a guy does that. And he is stunned. It never even occurred to him that what he was doing was horrible for women.