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MSU in the Crosshairs - Lawsuit Alleges MSU Encouraged Woman not to Report Rape by Basketball Players; Ohio State University Doctor Abused 177 Athlete (3 Viewers)

I was willing to just argue that the athletic department needs to be ended. After reading the new Outside the Lines report..... I have no problem arguing that MSU should lose its charter and be decertified as an educational institution.   There better be more criminal charges for the people in charge there. I'm done playing nice.

Michigan State University, under U.S. Department of Education oversight since 2014 because of its mishandling of sexual assault and gender discrimination cases, asked federal officials last fall to end their monitoring of the university because administrators had been acting in "good faith" and had "gone above and beyond" in meeting standards laid out by federal officials, according to documents obtained by Outside the Lines.

The Oct. 17 request was rejected outright by federal officials for several reasons but in large part because of how the university has handled sexual assault allegations against former MSU athletics physician Larry Nassar, the documents obtained by Outside the Lines show:

Michigan State administrators in 2014 did not notify federal officials that the university had dual Title IX and campus police investigations of Nassar underway even though federal investigators were on campus that year scrutinizing how MSU dealt with sexual assault allegations.

MSU administrators still have not provided to federal officials all documents related to the Nassar allegations.

The Department of Education first became involved with Michigan State in 2010, when its Office for Civil Rights offered informal guidance to university administrators as they came under media scrutiny after a female student reported that she had been raped by two Michigan State basketball players. The woman filed a federal complaint about MSU's handling of her case in 2011.

In 2014, another female student alleged that MSU had mishandled a sexual assault allegation she had made, and she, too, filed a federal complaint. Based upon both complaints, the Office for Civil Rights opened a formal investigation.

Federal investigators visited the campus and reviewed documents in 2014. That year, a recent MSU graduate reported that Nassar had assaulted her under the guise of medical treatment. MSU campus police and Title IX investigations began. Federal investigators were not told of the allegations at the time, according to the correspondence obtained by Outside the Lines. Nassar was cleared in both investigations.

Even without knowledge of the Nassar allegations, the Office for Civil Rights investigation into how MSU handled sexual assault and gender discrimination cases ended with findings that MSU had fostered a "sexually hostile environment" on campus. Under terms of a 2015 agreement with the Office for Civil Rights to settle the findings, MSU administrators faced a litany of requirements and continuing federal oversight. One of those requirements mandated that the university provide the Office for Civil Rights notification and documentation of all prior complaints of sexual assault and harassment by a January 2016 deadline.

The records obtained by Outside the Lines show that MSU did not do so until almost a year later. Among the documents not provided by the deadline: reports made against Nassar.

Outside the Lines has learned that MSU still has not provided the complete Nassar paperwork. On Jan. 17 -- 10 months after MSU acknowledged the "unfortunate oversight" -- an attorney with the Office for Civil Rights wrote Michigan State to further inquire about the review of those missing files, because the office had not received any additional documentation. A university attorney responded by email later that day promising an update by Jan. 31.
This really isn't that uncommon.  There are over 200 colleges and universities under investigation under Title IX.  It's the reason for the Obama administration's changes to handling Title IX in the first place - which, of course, has been rolled back by the current administration.  The initial list in 2014 - when MSU was on it to start - had 55 schools on it.  Obviously those were just investigations, not determinations.

Ohio State, Harvard, the University of Virginia... lots of schools have been found to not be in compliance with Title IX in the same kinds of ways MSU has been.  

 
This really isn't that uncommon.  There are over 200 colleges and universities under investigation under Title IX.  It's the reason for the Obama administration's changes to handling Title IX in the first place - which, of course, has been rolled back by the current administration.  The initial list in 2014 - when MSU was on it to start - had 55 schools on it.  Obviously those were just investigations, not determinations.

Ohio State, Harvard, the University of Virginia... lots of schools have been found to not be in compliance with Title IX in the same kinds of ways MSU has been.  
They still haven't turned over all the Nasser files. 

Still. 

MSU has made it clear by their actions... they do not care about the children entrusted to them.

 
MSU President having resigned, still gets a boatload of $$$ and benefits thru her contract.

Simon's contract has a number of details about what she gets if she resigns. She can choose to return to the faculty, at which point she will get a 12-month research leave at her current salary of $750,000. She then gets her current salary for the next year and 75% of her salary for the next two years. She also gets office space and secretarial support. She also gets the title of "president emeritus."

The contract also spells out a number of lifetime perks Simon and her husband will receive.

  • Parking passes for on-campus parking
  • Two free tickets to home football games for the Spartan Club suites
  • Two free tickets to women's basketball games
  • The option to buy up to four men's basketball tickets in the same location she currently has seats
  • Reduced-price tickets for bowl games and post-season play for football, men's and women's basketball and ice hockey
  • Parking pass for all home sporting and cultural events
 
They still haven't turned over all the Nasser files. 

Still. 

MSU has made it clear by their actions... they do not care about the children entrusted to them.
None of them do.  Is that surprising to you?  When UVA was investigated regarding Title IX compliance, they were found to have improperly responded to 22 out of 50 complaints.  

44% of their responses were not in compliance with Title IX.  But the only talking point about UVA is the Rolling Stone article.  

It's not a very well kept secret, but the country at large doesn't really care all that much about the children entrusted to colleges and universities.

 
None of them do.  Is that surprising to you?  When UVA was investigated regarding Title IX compliance, they were found to have improperly responded to 22 out of 50 complaints.  

44% of their responses were not in compliance with Title IX.  But the only talking point about UVA is the Rolling Stone article.  

It's not a very well kept secret, but the country at large doesn't really care all that much about the children entrusted to colleges and universities.
Probably true.  Doesn't change my opinion of MSU.  Nor does it take away from this story and what needs to be done to MSU.

 
MSU President having resigned, still gets a boatload of $$$ and benefits thru her contract.
And she's, what, about 70 years old?  She was never inclined to take one for the team here - probably too proud or stubborn to do that - but given the ongoing heat that wasn't going to go away, the compensation plus her age makes it rather easy to say "meh, I don't need this.  I'll walk."

--

Speaking of walking, I wonder if high school seniors will react to all this by walking away from MSU as a choice.  I don't recall that PSU took an enrollment hit, but Missouri got socked hard with enrollment drops following publicity of the 2015 racial protests.

 
Probably true.  Doesn't change my opinion of MSU.  Nor does it take away from this story and what needs to be done to MSU.
I guess. But it isn’t going to happen. Otherwise intelligent posters on this very board talk about the horrors of Title IX and how schools shouldn’t have to comply with its draconian regulations.  Nobody’s going to care enough to shut down MSU just because it has obvious contempt for Title IX compliance. 

 
I can't imagine my rage if my daughter had been one of the victims.  I know myself and my emotional control. My restraint may apply when I am wronged, at least I have striven over the years to obtain that control.  I know this also, though; if my daughters are hurt my intellect may not reign in my emotions, and my abilities, other than the ability to restrain myself, would be in service of my emotions.  That could be a volatile brew for whoever my emotions held accountable.  I am glad that others are more mature, reasoned, and retrained than am I.  I am not really fit for society, at least not as currently structured.

I hope the young ladies all have found some modicum of peace and healing through this process. 

 
My youngest is 15.  She dances.  Occasionally she gets injured.  She does not get examined without my wife present, not ever.  She does not get treated without my wife present or a second person in the room.

 
I can't imagine my rage if my daughter had been one of the victims.  I know myself and my emotional control. My restraint may apply when I am wronged, at least I have striven over the years to obtain that control.  I know this also, though; if my daughters are hurt my intellect may not reign in my emotions, and my abilities, other than the ability to restrain myself, would be in service of my emotions.  That could be a volatile brew for whoever my emotions held accountable.  I am glad that others are more mature, reasoned, and retrained than am I.  I am not really fit for society, at least not as currently structured.

I hope the young ladies all have found some modicum of peace and healing through this process. 
:goodposting:  as usual, DW. Right there with you. And admittedly my personal bias, as a father of a teenage daughter, is probably why I didn't mind the little bit of I guess what might be best described as "#### you" in the judge's tone while handing down the sentence to Nassar. 

 
It probably was.  It should be.  Judges do things they don't want to do all the time.  They make decisions and change people's lives in terrible ways - sometimes good people.  This wasn't that.

Whatever the thing is that most of us do at our jobs that does the most good for the world, that judge did more good in that moment than most people do in a year.

It would be an honor and a privilege to send someone who's molested over 150 little girls to prison.  Just like it would be an honor and a privilege to be the officer who arrested him, booked him, and slammed the jail cell shut on him the first day he was picked up.
110% agree and she could have done all that without her statements. 

 
My youngest is 15.  She dances.  Occasionally she gets injured.  She does not get examined without my wife present, not ever.  She does not get treated without my wife present or a second person in the room.
Many times the parents were in the room during Nassar's treatment.  Repeated testimony was that the parents were often in the room and he would shield the "treatment" and/or the fact that his hand would slip into his own shorts with his body.

 
Many times the parents were in the room during Nassar's treatment.  Repeated testimony was that the parents were often in the room and he would shield the "treatment" and/or the fact that his hand would slip into his own shorts with his body.
I'm guessing parents and kids have learned a hard, and a very sad lesson on trust and where to place it.  That is among the evil this Convict has done.  He has potentially complicated millions upon millions of doctor patient relationships moving forward.  He has taken a bit of childhood from many children, and childhood is already too short.  He has added a bit to millions becoming jaded and suspicious at too young an age.  he has created obstacles to bonds and trust for millions he will never even see.  he has taken much to get his nut.  The scales will never be balanced when it comes to him.  We cannot possibly take enough from him to weigh in the balance all he took, and all he will continue to take.

 
Many times the parents were in the room during Nassar's treatment.  Repeated testimony was that the parents were often in the room and he would shield the "treatment" and/or the fact that his hand would slip into his own shorts with his body.
I didn't really connect the dots but I read a piece last night that pointed out the fact Nasser did it while the parents were in the room made the girls less likely to tell anyone because they didn't realize the parents could not see what was happening and assumed if the parents were there and didn't stop it, Nasser must not have done anything wrong.  He used the parents being present to protect himself.

 
I didn't really connect the dots but I read a piece last night that pointed out the fact Nasser did it while the parents were in the room made the girls less likely to tell anyone because they didn't realize the parents could not see what was happening and assumed if the parents were there and didn't stop it, Nasser must not have done anything wrong.  He used the parents being present to protect himself.
Yup.

 
I didn't really connect the dots but I read a piece last night that pointed out the fact Nasser did it while the parents were in the room made the girls less likely to tell anyone because they didn't realize the parents could not see what was happening and assumed if the parents were there and didn't stop it, Nasser must not have done anything wrong.  He used the parents being present to protect himself.
Holy ####. Never thought I’d think worse of a human being than Jerry Sandusky but here we are. That’s just terrible. It made the girls think their parents supported what he was doing. 

 
Even if it's just his hands, I still don't understand how the parents don't see what's happening.  I guess I just won't ever know.  Is it possible that parents just subconsciously ignore it because the long term goals?

 
That's a great start. USAG needs to meet these goals at a much faster pace, though.
USA gymnastics can sit out an olympics too... who exactly will want to tune this in with their flowerly BS of how much they've "overcome" as if the problem was a lack of institutional control.  Clean the decks.

 
Does anybody know which facility in the Federal system this convict is assigned to, and what conditions, if any, he will be serving under.  To my way of thinking he is very fortunate to be in the federal system rather than the Michigan state system. In the federal system he is somewhat less likely to run into some hardcore characters. 

I generally believe it is wrong to have prisoners mete out the Punishment I want prisoners to suffer.  We have an obligation under the 8th amendment and probably under a decent moral code to administer justice directly rather than through the capricious hands of fellow inmates.  That said, I do want this convict to come to have an intimate understanding of fear and victimization.

 
Thoughts on the judge being maybe a little too vengeful in this case?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/26/victims-champion-or-vengeful-nassar-judge-rosemarie-aquilina-stirs-controversy/

“I would not send my dogs to you, sir,” the judge told Nassar at one point, before dismissively tossing aside a self-serving letter the defendant had written to the court. She also mused in court that U.S. Constitution did not allow for cruel and unusual punishment. “If it did, I have to say, I might allow what he did to all of these beautiful souls ― these young women in their childhood ― I would allow some or many people to do to him what he did to others.”

Many took the comment to suggest Nassar’s own possible sexual assault as retaliation.

In the New Republic, writer Andrew Cohen argued that in her “relentless hostility and anger toward Nassar” Aquilina had “abdicated her role as an impartial arbiter and became instead a tribune for prosecutors and the victims. . . . She did this by treating Nassar as if he were something far less than an American entitled to all of the constitutional protections of a fair tribunal.”

 
Thoughts on the judge being maybe a little too vengeful in this case?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/26/victims-champion-or-vengeful-nassar-judge-rosemarie-aquilina-stirs-controversy/

“I would not send my dogs to you, sir,” the judge told Nassar at one point, before dismissively tossing aside a self-serving letter the defendant had written to the court. She also mused in court that U.S. Constitution did not allow for cruel and unusual punishment. “If it did, I have to say, I might allow what he did to all of these beautiful souls ― these young women in their childhood ― I would allow some or many people to do to him what he did to others.”

Many took the comment to suggest Nassar’s own possible sexual assault as retaliation.

In the New Republic, writer Andrew Cohen argued that in her “relentless hostility and anger toward Nassar” Aquilina had “abdicated her role as an impartial arbiter and became instead a tribune for prosecutors and the victims. . . . She did this by treating Nassar as if he were something far less than an American entitled to all of the constitutional protections of a fair tribunal.”
There is certainly a case to be made, as some have made in here, that a judge should be less emotional in such cases. I would invite those making that case to preside over sentencing of a man who pleaded guilty to child pornography charges and charges of first degree sexual assault on minors, with 156 victim statements.  But there’s a case to be made. 

I think it might be best if someone other than the New Republic makes that case right now. It feels a little extra slimy after they allowed 20 years of sexual harassment and assault in their offices by Leon Wieseltier and Ham Fish that just came out at the end of last year.  Seems a touch self serving.  

 
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Thoughts on the judge being maybe a little too vengeful in this case?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/26/victims-champion-or-vengeful-nassar-judge-rosemarie-aquilina-stirs-controversy/

“I would not send my dogs to you, sir,” the judge told Nassar at one point, before dismissively tossing aside a self-serving letter the defendant had written to the court. She also mused in court that U.S. Constitution did not allow for cruel and unusual punishment. “If it did, I have to say, I might allow what he did to all of these beautiful souls ― these young women in their childhood ― I would allow some or many people to do to him what he did to others.”

Many took the comment to suggest Nassar’s own possible sexual assault as retaliation.

In the New Republic, writer Andrew Cohen argued that in her “relentless hostility and anger toward Nassar” Aquilina had “abdicated her role as an impartial arbiter and became instead a tribune for prosecutors and the victims. . . . She did this by treating Nassar as if he were something far less than an American entitled to all of the constitutional protections of a fair tribunal.”
I'm ok with it for the circumstances, but she did get close to crossing a line.  Justice is supposed to be somewhat above the fury and anger that I personally have over this episode.  I don't agree with Cohen though.  She did the things we are talking about within the confines of the victim impact statements, not instructions to a jury.

 
Thoughts on the judge being maybe a little too vengeful in this case?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/26/victims-champion-or-vengeful-nassar-judge-rosemarie-aquilina-stirs-controversy/

“I would not send my dogs to you, sir,” the judge told Nassar at one point, before dismissively tossing aside a self-serving letter the defendant had written to the court. She also mused in court that U.S. Constitution did not allow for cruel and unusual punishment. “If it did, I have to say, I might allow what he did to all of these beautiful souls ― these young women in their childhood ― I would allow some or many people to do to him what he did to others.”

Many took the comment to suggest Nassar’s own possible sexual assault as retaliation.

In the New Republic, writer Andrew Cohen argued that in her “relentless hostility and anger toward Nassar” Aquilina had “abdicated her role as an impartial arbiter and became instead a tribune for prosecutors and the victims. . . . She did this by treating Nassar as if he were something far less than an American entitled to all of the constitutional protections of a fair tribunal.”
Did she go a little overboard/partial?   Maybe Yes

Do I care?  Not even a little

 
Thoughts on the judge being maybe a little too vengeful in this case?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/26/victims-champion-or-vengeful-nassar-judge-rosemarie-aquilina-stirs-controversy/

“I would not send my dogs to you, sir,” the judge told Nassar at one point, before dismissively tossing aside a self-serving letter the defendant had written to the court. She also mused in court that U.S. Constitution did not allow for cruel and unusual punishment. “If it did, I have to say, I might allow what he did to all of these beautiful souls ― these young women in their childhood ― I would allow some or many people to do to him what he did to others.”

Many took the comment to suggest Nassar’s own possible sexual assault as retaliation.

In the New Republic, writer Andrew Cohen argued that in her “relentless hostility and anger toward Nassar” Aquilina had “abdicated her role as an impartial arbiter and became instead a tribune for prosecutors and the victims. . . . She did this by treating Nassar as if he were something far less than an American entitled to all of the constitutional protections of a fair tribunal.”
In principle and answering unemotionally. Yes, I think she either crossed, or at least came very close to crossing, the line.

Answering emotionally as the father to a 13 yo daughter. I'm OK with her comments.

Call me a hypocrite I suppose but that's my honest answer.

 
I have sympathy for her Honor.  Had she been as staid as I suggested might have been what I would have done if I were she and I were exercising maximum judicial restraint, her Honor would have been open to criticism that she did not express the proper opprobrium and condemnation of his crimes nor the proper respect and support of the victims.  Is her Honor's job to sentence for the crimes he has committed against "the people", an abstract construct, or against the victims in court before her petitioning that she uphold their sense of justice?    

To an extent, some of this can be fudged or finessed when a judge makes findings that lead then to the sentencing, two different matters.  In the end I land where I did earlier, I think she did all right.  I expressed my view because this criticism coming was well evident to any who have been involved in the system, but she did all right.  Criticism was coming no matter what, it is who we are, as a people.

 
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It is a rare Judge indeed who captures proper Judicial decorum and restraint while coloring in their sentencing the  more ephemeral qualities of justice coupled with the more turgid portion of justice that tends towards retribution.  The components of justice are weighed differently by different folks.  This is a tricky high wire act to be sure, the sentencing of the most vile I mean. 

 
In principle and answering unemotionally. Yes, I think she either crossed, or at least came very close to crossing, the line.

Answering emotionally as the father to a 13 yo daughter. I'm OK with her comments.

Call me a hypocrite I suppose but that's my honest answer.
I can respect this. You are aware of the inconsistency of your position. I appreciate the honesty.

 
Wow....just......wow.  This is utterly indefensible.  For anybody left who believes MSU should not be punished as a whole, I urge you to read this carefully.  This is just revolting.

Michigan State campus police and Michigan State's Title IX office did not formally begin investigating him until 2014 -- 17 years after the first complaint was made to a Michigan State coach. Nassar remained employed at MSU until September 2016, a few weeks after a former Spartan gymnast had filed a criminal complaint against him with campus police.

For months, Michigan State officials, including then-president Lou Anna Simon, have been criticized for a lack of transparency and for not properly handling sexual assault allegations made against Nassar. Several survivors of Nassar's abuse excoriated Simon and Michigan State during Nassar's sentencing hearing this month, repeatedly saying that MSU's inaction let Nassar thrive at MSU and that he was able to continue abusing scores of young girls and women as a result.

Nassar saw patients for 16 months at Michigan State while he remained under criminal investigation. At least a dozen young women and girls have reported to police that Nassar assaulted them after he was allowed to return to work.

 
eoMMan said:
She did this by treating Nassar as if he were something far less than an American entitled to all of the constitutional protections of a fair tribunal.”
I am one who comes down on the side that she was overly dramatic at times.  It was Judge Judy-ish.

But, nothing she did precluded Nassar from getting a fair hearing, imo.  He pled guilty.  He was guilty.  His plea accepted a minimum sentence of 40 years.  He is already serving 60 years in federal prison.  He still faces additional sexual assault trials.  He was never, ever getting out of prison alive.  Nothing Aquilina said or did changed that outcome.

I do applaud her for ensuring that all of the victims had a chance to be heard.  I think that is an important part of the process for all involved - including Nassar - he needs to hear, in no uncertain terms, the harm he caused.  (It was also agreed to in the plea agreement)  I don't think any of that was improper - including putting Nassar in the witness chair - as if on display.  The women all deserved their chance to look him in the eye when they gave their statements.

But, in the end - Nassar received all of the constitutional protections to which he is entitled.  He was given access to counsel.  He had the right to a trial by a jury of his peers.  He pled guilty, and nothing that flowed from the sentencing phase affected his constitutional rights.

 
whoknew said:
Mark Hollis (MSU AD) is resigning today.
This situation is a disaster for MSU.   Hollis does not say a word about Nasser and then abruptly retires?   Then I heard yesterday that MSU hid files from the federal investigation.      Simon and Hollis and many others could be prosecuted before this is all said and done. 

 
Men been hanged for better things
Than half the things you did today
You go find some other place to stay

Arizona thundershower
Count the days and kill the hour
Six foot deep don't seem so awful low, you know
When the eagle hits the ground
You can hear the sparks will fly for miles around
Who could blame a man to curse or pray

Strike a light or curse the shade
Some of us have got it made
While some men's children got to stall for time
What you get for what you got
Still don't leave an awful lot
Could be you've got nothing left to give away

California lightning chain
Kicked out in the driving rain
You broke every law of God and man
An honest man would stand and die
If he had one good reason why
Or even half a leg on which to stand

Some Snippet from Robert Hunter running through my head.

 
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Maybe there could be other punishments for MSU instead of just closing it down right away.  Maybe let it die a slightly slower death.  Kick them out of the B1G.  No longer televise any more of their sporting events.  That alone would do plenty to hurt their revenue.  Students could continue going there and athletes could continue competing for a while, they most likely wouldn't have a desire to go there anymore and the school would lose a lot of boosters.  They are most likely losing a lot of financial support already which is deserved.

 
I'm really glad to see people upset about MSU.  I'm also patently confused about what people think usually happens when women are dismissed and disbelieved.  Yes, the abusers keep on abusing victims who would have been saved if the accusers had been believed.  That's pretty much what happens every single time.

 
Should campus police departments even be investigating a faculty member?  It seems like that is really leaving the investigation open to undue influence from the administration.  I would think they would be better served turning the investigation over to municipal police (I realize that in many college towns it may not make much of a difference).

 
https://twitter.com/OTLonESPN/status/956954323338121217

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

In what Title IX investigators called “a sexually hostile environment," at least 16 Michigan State football players have been named in accusations of rape or violence against women since Mark Dantonio became head coach in 2007.
Maybe, but each one got an excuse note from their doctor. 

 
The guilt these parents must have is unimaginable.    Working in healthcare for so long I don't understand how he was allowed to examine these children without another medical professional in the room.   It would be very easy for him to manipulate the child's position so that he could do evil things and every doctor I have ever worked with wanted another person in the room for liability reasons.  Of course, he was molesting them so he didn't want the extra person, but someone in the office should have known better.  So confusing that this pattern of abuse happened for so long and so many people burying their heads in the sand.     

Doesn't matter at this point other than to stop it from happening again.    

 
General Malaise said:
Wow....just......wow.  This is utterly indefensible.  For anybody left who believes MSU should not be punished as a whole, I urge you to read this carefully.  This is just revolting.
At this point, anyone who doesn't believe that could only be a homer, an idiot, or someone no one should leave children alone with. . 

 
The guilt these parents must have is unimaginable.    Working in healthcare for so long I don't understand how he was allowed to examine these children without another medical professional in the room.   It would be very easy for him to manipulate the child's position so that he could do evil things and every doctor I have ever worked with wanted another person in the room for liability reasons.  Of course, he was molesting them so he didn't want the extra person, but someone in the office should have known better.  So confusing that this pattern of abuse happened for so long and so many people burying their heads in the sand.     

Doesn't matter at this point other than to stop it from happening again.    
In some cases, he molested the girls with their parents in the same room.  

And it's worse than having their heads in the sand - parents, coaches and other personal were TOLD about the abuse and either didn't believe the girls or ignored their claims.  Just makes me sick.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
I'm ok with it for the circumstances, but she did get close to crossing a line.  Justice is supposed to be somewhat above the fury and anger that I personally have over this episode.  I don't agree with Cohen though.  She did the things we are talking about within the confines of the victim impact statements, not instructions to a jury.
also this was a sentence thing right so he had already plead guilty i think at that point the judge gets a little more room in my mind to call a pile of crap a pile of crap take that to the bank brohans 

 

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