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Muslims in NYC Planning to Build Second Mosque Near Ground Zero (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Chadstroma
- Start date
You do realize realize half the world's Muslim population has a favorable view of bin Laden and most support the use of suicide bombers to kill civilians. Yes there are A LOT of muslims who see this as a sign of triumph against America. Certainly those numbers are much much smaller for American muslims, but I am certain the majority of the money will be flowing in from overseas for this little project.
drummer
Footballguy
Fixed for Canadians.
drummer
Footballguy
Better not lend your new neighbors a shovel.
timschochet
Footballguy
Can you provide evidence of the bolded? That's a pretty big claim. I've seen numbers like 10-20% support bin Laden, but half? Never seen anything close to that.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
So, will they be shipping people over from the Middle East to hold their triumphant celebrations?What evidence do we have this money is coming from America. Sounds like they are soliciting from all over.at the "symbol of triumph"/American Muslims celebrating 9/11 shtick.
drummer
Footballguy
Was it over when Islam bombed Pearl Harbor? - jon_555
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Sorry if I do not fit your sterotypical anti-mosque cabbie-stabbing islamophobe.
Actually you do and are lying through your teeth right now. You'd have no problem with a mosque next door, funded by your shadowy "evil" men (apparently part owner of Fox)? Massive BS. A mosque from the same people "marking a territory" next door to you? Not in a million years. You're not fooling anyone here.Towers down does not = "Defeated", Einstein. Furthermore, with such a majority opposed, it's hardly a radical right-wing matter.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
What evidence do we have this money is coming from America. Sounds like they are soliciting from all over.
X 1000 at you demanding evidence. You've never given one iota of evidence at all, yet claimed definitively over and over again that it's supported by the evil terrorists (and if it's coming in part from Fox, then you're at least part right).
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Oh, you're certain. That's definitely all the proof I need! What a complete joke.
BRITISH MUSLIMS BACK BIN LADEN: POLL.
Al-Jazeera Poll: 49.9% of Muslims support Osama bin Laden
Muslims like Osama, Musharraf: survey
Almost three fourths (of British Muslims) find statements by Osama bin Laden more believable than evidence from the British and American governments.
CNN reports Poll finds Majority of Nigerian Muslims support Osama bin Laden
McJose
Footballguy
Yeah, that's still not half of the world's muslims. And except for the Nigerian one those polls are outdated.2001
2006
2004
2002
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Exactly. Nigerian Muslims? British Muslims? Even if 50% of them support Bin Laden, what % of overall Muslims are they in the world?I think a telling question in one of those was that 80% believed that the Iraq War is a war on Islam. True or not, if a lot of people over there believe that it's a scary thing.
Radio Free Homer
Footballguy
LMAO at you demanding evidence.What evidence do we have this money is coming from America. Sounds like they are soliciting from all over.at the "symbol of triumph"/American Muslims celebrating 9/11 shtick.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Also lost in these discussions is that political beliefs <> religious beliefs.
Just because a Muslim speaks out about the policies of the US and that they are waging unjust wars in the ME does not mean they want to blow up civilians or that their religion is teaching them these things. I just think it's sad that we believe we are the only people who can their religion in the context that it belongs or that it doesn't dictate 100% of our decisions or opinions. Believe it or not, a Muslim can hate the US and what it stands for but not want to blow us up.
Just because a Muslim speaks out about the policies of the US and that they are waging unjust wars in the ME does not mean they want to blow up civilians or that their religion is teaching them these things. I just think it's sad that we believe we are the only people who can their religion in the context that it belongs or that it doesn't dictate 100% of our decisions or opinions. Believe it or not, a Muslim can hate the US and what it stands for but not want to blow us up.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
JRogers=Jim11? Or is Jon doing alias double-duty here?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Well the link above points to exactly that - support for Bin Laden and violence decreasing over the last 5 years.
drummer
Footballguy
Probably Stat switching it up a bit.
That doesn't carry much weight coming from the author of these gems:and?...your logic was weak. very weak.
Statorama
Footballguy
nah, I save all the good stuff for myself. Plus, I've done what I wanted to do in here. You guys can finish it up however you like.
If you posted the whole response, they would make a lot of sense. If this is truely going to be predominately a cultural center, then the argument that about freedom of religion goes out the door. This is just some non-profit organization wanting to build some building. They should be treated like every other oganization in the zoning approval desicion. Is this the highest and best use, does this fit in with the zoning, is this project desirable, etc. Religious freedom does not come into play in this case. I am not sure where you are confused. It is a non-church organization, building a non-religious building. What religious freedom are we talking about?
mad sweeney
Footballguy
If that's true then why your objection to it as a monument to Islam's assault on America?
Because it is a disgusting statement. We as people have the right to object. You have the right to support such hatred.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
How is it a disgusting statement if you just said that "it was a non-church organization, building a non-religious building"? Because either you're p/o'd that it's Islam declaring victory or you're p/o'd for another reason, or just as likely you aren't really sure why you're p/o'd.
Sorry, I should stay up to midnight to respond to everyone.
But they have a point, more recent polls show support for terrorism has declined steadily since 9-11. It was up above 50% up until around 2005. But there is still evidence of strong support. Here is one from this year.Currently, it is probably in the 20-30% range, but polling seems lacking and Pew skews their results a bit by wrapping religion into the question. Muslims are starting to be against suicide bombings in the name of Islam, but still large numbers support it as a tactic against US policies. And a real concern is that there is also budding extremism growing among the young Muslims in this country with some 25% supporting the use of suicide bombings against civilians. Considering there are well over 1 billion Muslims around the world (I believe they claim a quarter of the worlds population is Muslim), even at 20-30% that means there are over 300 million Muslims throughout the world who support bin Laden and the use of suicide attacks against civilians. I happen to be coming to the logical conclusion that the money for this project is coming overwhelmingly from those 300 million radicals. IMHO, liberals are giving them cover by supporting this project instead of condemning it as an ugly and divisive project that it is.
You do like to present a moving target, don't you?
Not at all. It was never about being a mosque that made this building offensive. My issue has always been who is supporting it, where the money is coming from, and what is the purpose of this building. The stated purpose of wanting to build bridges between Muslims and the west is completely bogus since it has already accomplished the opposite of its stated goal. The people behind this project seem a lot more radical than the moderate face they try to put forward now. The money behind this is a complete mystery and will continue to be so. I happen to strongly believe that such a radical proposal that is causing such emotional outrage is almost certainly financially supported mostly by radicals. Is that my opinion? Yes, but it is about like blaming the KKK for that burning cross. It is a logical conclusion.
Balance
Footballguy
Are you implying the churches in the area are anything less than $100 million? If it is the cost that has you all worked up, I can point you to a couple (dozen) cathedrals/churches in the area that should really get you going. But that isn't the real problem is it?
22% seem to be the ones getting it. Kinda like the 70%+ that still think there is a link between Iraq and 9-11. No link here either, but fear and bigotry rule the day.
Not surprising.
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A church has no relevance to this debate. But for the sake of arguement, let's just say there was this location where there was a plot by a bunch of Chrisitans to blow up a gay rights convention, and they successfully killed hundreds of gays and lesbians and others. Now let's suppose there is this non-profit Christian right organization that was some little known group with no money all of a sudden proposed bulding a huge $100 million Chrisitan Cultural Center that just happens to be next to that site where this massive killing occured. And then magically, this little organization with no money had huge sums of money roll in to make this project a reality. Would you support it, or would you see it as a hateful statement that should be condemned? Would you not question their motives for the location and the question where all money behind it is coming from???Are you implying the churches in the area are anything less than $100 million? If it is the cost that has you all worked up, I can point you to a couple (dozen) cathedrals/churches in the area that should really get you going. But that isn't the real problem is it?
22% seem to be the ones getting it. Kinda like the 70%+ that still think there is a link between Iraq and 9-11. No link here either, but fear and bigotry rule the day.
Not surprising.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
The outrage has seemed to come from people like you who believe or seem or could or logically or maybe or might or any other of a number of non definitive words you want to put in there (think is another one that would apply to you) that don't add up to diddly squat. The outrage has come from people who want to lump all Islam into one and blame any of them for 9/11 if they want to put a mosque or a community center too close to where radicals attacked the US. During all of this outrage, how many Muslims have attacked NYers? Right now the number of hate crimes against Muslims is up to 10 (for the whole year so far) from the 6 all last year combined. However, I did find someone that thinks exactly like you. As I was reading it, I thought, if only he'd use some neat word like canard, then I'd know for sure that this was another exact version of you. As it is, it's pretty much the Pakistani version of you.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
You're not questioning where the money's coming from, you've already decided. So you're little example is already skewed on that point.A church has no relevance to this debate. But for the sake of arguement, let's just say there was this location where there was a plot by a bunch of Chrisitans to blow up a gay rights convention, and they successfully killed hundreds of gays and lesbians and others. Now let's suppose there is this non-profit Christian right organization that was some little known group with no money all of a sudden proposed bulding a huge $100 million Chrisitan Cultural Center that just happens to be next to that site where this massive killing occured. And then magically, this little organization with no money had huge sums of money roll in to make this project a reality. Would you support it, or would you see it as a hateful statement that should be condemned? Would you not question their motives for the location and the question where all money behind it is coming from???Are you implying the churches in the area are anything less than $100 million? If it is the cost that has you all worked up, I can point you to a couple (dozen) cathedrals/churches in the area that should really get you going. But that isn't the real problem is it?
22% seem to be the ones getting it. Kinda like the 70%+ that still think there is a link between Iraq and 9-11. No link here either, but fear and bigotry rule the day.
Not surprising.
Balance
Footballguy
You are asking the wrong guy here. I'm not the hypocrit. All religion is nonsense to me.But I would of course go on to say that there are indeed christian churches in locations where events of violence were justified by christianity. Doubt it is a stretch to say there are chtistian churches near every single one of these events.. probably multiple churches. And I wouldn't blame the church itself for any of the violence.A church has no relevance to this debate. But for the sake of arguement, let's just say there was this location where there was a plot by a bunch of Chrisitans to blow up a gay rights convention, and they successfully killed hundreds of gays and lesbians and others. Now let's suppose there is this non-profit Christian right organization that was some little known group with no money all of a sudden proposed bulding a huge $100 million Chrisitan Cultural Center that just happens to be next to that site where this massive killing occured. And then magically, this little organization with no money had huge sums of money roll in to make this project a reality. Would you support it, or would you see it as a hateful statement that should be condemned? Would you not question their motives for the location and the question where all money behind it is coming from???Are you implying the churches in the area are anything less than $100 million? If it is the cost that has you all worked up, I can point you to a couple (dozen) cathedrals/churches in the area that should really get you going. But that isn't the real problem is it?
22% seem to be the ones getting it. Kinda like the 70%+ that still think there is a link between Iraq and 9-11. No link here either, but fear and bigotry rule the day.
Not surprising.
Religion is a tool. People can use it for good or evil - like anything else. To say Islam had anything to do with 9-11 outside of being a tool to motivate and justify people's actions is a poor effort. Just like christianity has nothing to do with people blowing up abortion clinics. The abortion bombers use jesus as an crutch and excuse to do what they otherwise couldnt justify on their own. Same difference.
A group of individuals committed the atrocities on 9-11. People like you trying to label an entire religion with the actions of a few is pure laziness... driven by fear.
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Balance
Footballguy
pretty obvious to those who dont have any skin in the game.just read a few pages of this thread, the "driven by fear" line getting used over and over
This isn't just some mosque. There are already mosque within a few block of ground zero. The scope of this project and location that raises many suspicions. I agree with your assessment that you can't blame religion, it is obviously being abused by radicals to promote their agenda. The problem I have with this project is I believe it is the radicals who are behind it. I don't like the message that this project is sending and oppose it for that reason.This argument that this opposition is driven by fear is just a bunch of rhetoric that isn't helping the debate in any way shape or form. Most people who oppose this project also support their right to build it. Certainly they can find some nuts out there to use in the effort to demonize 70% of the US population as a bunch of hate-mongers, but that is not the US I know and love. If people really think that 70% of the US population is just a bunch of hateful bigots, what are they doing living here?You are asking the wrong guy here. I'm not the hypocrit. All religion is nonsense to me.But I would of course go on to say that there are indeed christian churches in locations where events of violence were justified by christianity. Doubt it is a stretch to say there are chtistian churches near every single one of these events.. probably multiple churches. And I wouldn't blame the church itself for any of the violence.A church has no relevance to this debate. But for the sake of arguement, let's just say there was this location where there was a plot by a bunch of Chrisitans to blow up a gay rights convention, and they successfully killed hundreds of gays and lesbians and others. Now let's suppose there is this non-profit Christian right organization that was some little known group with no money all of a sudden proposed bulding a huge $100 million Chrisitan Cultural Center that just happens to be next to that site where this massive killing occured. And then magically, this little organization with no money had huge sums of money roll in to make this project a reality. Would you support it, or would you see it as a hateful statement that should be condemned? Would you not question their motives for the location and the question where all money behind it is coming from???Are you implying the churches in the area are anything less than $100 million? If it is the cost that has you all worked up, I can point you to a couple (dozen) cathedrals/churches in the area that should really get you going. But that isn't the real problem is it?
22% seem to be the ones getting it. Kinda like the 70%+ that still think there is a link between Iraq and 9-11. No link here either, but fear and bigotry rule the day.
Not surprising.
Religion is a tool. People can use it for good or evil - like anything else. To say Islam had anything to do with 9-11 outside of being a tool to motivate and justify people's actions is a poor effort. Just like christianity has nothing to do with people blowing up abortion clinics. The abortion bombers use jesus as an crutch and excuse to do what they otherwise couldnt justify on their own. Same difference.
A group of individuals committed the atrocities on 9-11. People like you trying to label an entire religion with the actions of a few is pure laziness... driven by fear.
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Balance
Footballguy
It raises your suspicions because you project those individuals' actions on to the religion as a whole. You "believe" the radicals are behind it. Great - show me. Because what I'm reading is that the Imam of the mmosque has been on our side from day one, assisting the Bush and Obama administration since day one.If there is something factual to base your beliefs on - please share. Obviously if there are bad people behind this or any project, I'd be opposed. I have seen nothing to make me think this is true.John555 said:
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Imam Feisal Rauf has written papers on support of Shariah Law. Has made statements blaming the US for killing 500,000 Iraqis who died under Saddam. Rauf has made it clear he is willing to accept money coming from places like Iran. Rauf has made it clear he has no intentions of disclosing his sources of money. Rauf has made it clear he is unwilling to meet with moderates such as Governor Patterson to discusss possible alternative locations. Unless you can get into someones head, it is impossible to prove what the motivation is, but there is enough there to make a reasonable person think he may not have the best intentions.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
No, you simply get what you want to get out of it. None of those, even pit together, represents what you want it to. You're aware that there are moderates in Iran trying too modernize Islam? They had a little mini revolution attempt a little while ago, perhaps you missed it while futiley looking for links to stuff that doesn't exist. But keep on trucking. You're a shining example of how it's possible for fear to take over and American ignorance to be showcased worldwide.
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm betting you haven't read these papers, John555. This issue of "Sharia Law" needs to be explored a little more deeply, since there are misconceptions about it that go to the heart of the issue. Sharia translates as "the law of Islam." Islam, like Judiasm, but unlike Christianity, is a religion in which God imposes a significant number of regulations upon it's practitioners. In Christianity Jesus replaces the laws of the Old Testament. In Judiasm there are the Ten Commandments, the laws of the books of Moses, and the laws of the Talmud, which is an interpretation of the Ten Commandments, essentially adding the principles behind them to hundreds of worldly matters. But here's the important part: among religious (observant) Jews, there are great degrees of difference of opinion as to how one obeys the Laws in the modern world. Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox, and Hasidic Jews will all tell you they are observant of the Laws, but they do it quite differently. The Hasidic Jews, for example, are far more fundamentalist and literal than the others I have mentioned, but in order to achieve this they almost have to completely separate themselves off from the modern world. Finally, it's important to point out that observant Jews have no interest in non-Jews being observant; unlike Christians, Jews do not try to evangelize non Jews.OK, why is any of this important? Because every aspect I just described about Judiasm also applies to modern Islam. Sharia, like the Ten Commandments, has 5 "Main laws"- praying 5 times a day, declaring the oneness of God, visiting Mecca once in your life, giving a portion of your income to the religion, and I don't remember what the 5th one is at this moment. Like the Jewish Talmud, Sharia has hundreds of other laws written in the Koran which are a source of constant debate and discussion among Muslim scholars. And like Judiasm, there are many differing interpretations of Sharia. The sect that Imam Rauf belongs to, the Sufi, is among the LEAST fundamentalist interpretations- it is almost a 180 degree diffrerence in opinion from the Shia intepretation that the Mullahs of Iran practice. Again, to suggest that Rauf, as a believer in Sharia, is a fundamentalist, would be like suggesting that a reformed Rabbi was exactly the same as a Hasidic Rebbe. I know this has been a rather long explanation but I think it's important to make these distinctions. All Muslim clerics practice Sharia; that is the soul of their religion. By linking them together we practice a crude sort of bigotry which doesn't help anyone.
CBusAlex
Footballguy
Pretty sure it's "death to America".
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Triumph Mosque? 
timschochet
Footballguy
I looked it up; it's fasting during Ramadan.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
It was only a matter of time before the martyr shtick. It's been a good run.
Phurfur
Footballguy
You always add so much to these threads. So, why is Islam the only religion the left will defend? Either you can't answer or you don't want to.
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