Muslims in NYC Planning to Build Second Mosque Near Ground Zero (3 Viewers)

[jon_mx]

Can you provide a link for that other than the Wiki "previously edited" page? Not to doubt you bonafides as a scholar of Islam or pan-Arabic history.

Here is a BBC sourced piece which provides a fairly balanced article albeit from a leftist source of the Muslim rule in spain. I will pull a few that shed a different light than what the utopia Muslim version.

The true position is more complicated. The distinguished historian Bernard Lewis wrote that the status of non-Muslims in Islamic Spain was a sort of second-class citizenship but he went on to say:

Second-class citizenship, though second class, is a kind of citizenship. It involves some rights, though not all, and is surely better than no rights at all...

...A recognized status, albeit one of inferiority to the dominant group, which is established by law, recognized by tradition, and confirmed by popular assent, is not to be despised.

Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam, 1984

In Islamic Spain, Jews and Christians were tolerated if they:

acknowledged Islamic superiority

accepted Islamic power

paid a tax called Jizya to the Muslim rulers and sometimes paid higher rates of other taxes

avoided blasphemy

did not try to convert Muslims

complied with the rules laid down by the authorities. These included:

restrictions on clothing and the need to wear a special badge

restrictions on building synagogues and churches

not allowed to carry weapons

could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim

could not bequeath anything to a Muslim

could not own a Muslim slave

a dhimmi man could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)

a dhimmi could not give evidence in an Islamic court

dhimmis would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury

At times there were restrictions on practicing one's faith too obviously. Bell-ringing or chanting too loudly were frowned on and public processions were restricted.

Many Christians in Spain assimilated parts of the Muslim culture. Some learned Arabic, some adopted the same clothes as their rulers (some Christian women even started wearing the veil); some took Arabic names. Christians who did this were known as Mozarabs.

The Muslim rulers didn't give their non-Muslim subjects equal status; as Bat Ye'or has stated, the non-Muslims came definitely at the bottom of society.

 

[mad sweeney]

Can you provide a link for that other than the Wiki "previously edited" page? Not to doubt you bonafides as a scholar of Islam or pan-Arabic history.

Here is a BBC sourced piece which provides a fairly balanced article albeit from a leftist source of the Muslim rule in spain. I will pull a few that shed a different light than what the utopia Muslim version.

The true position is more complicated. The distinguished historian Bernard Lewis wrote that the status of non-Muslims in Islamic Spain was a sort of second-class citizenship but he went on to say:

Second-class citizenship, though second class, is a kind of citizenship. It involves some rights, though not all, and is surely better than no rights at all...

...A recognized status, albeit one of inferiority to the dominant group, which is established by law, recognized by tradition, and confirmed by popular assent, is not to be despised.

Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam, 1984

Sounds a lot like the Right's views on homosexuals. I mean, afterall, those second class citizens chose not to convert.While you're looking up stuff from more than a thousand years ago, will you post some examples of how civilly Christians treated those they conquered?

Utopia No wonder you get things wrong all the time. Whoever said it was a utopia?

 

[jon_mx]

Tim is the one who wanted to use Wiki as a source. The only thing Wiki represents is whose activists are more active in editing the site.

Can you actually make a response instead of just some some lame emoticon response? It is an accurate statement of what Wiki is on political subjects, so I have no idea what your counterpoint is, except maybe you don't have one.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Stability in Muslim Spain came with the establishment of the Andalusian Umayyad dynasty, which lasted from 756 to 1031.

The credit goes to Amir Abd al-Rahman, who founded the Emirate of Cordoba, and was able to get the various different Muslim groups who had conquered Spain to pull together in ruling it.

The Muslim period in Spain is often described as a 'golden age' of learning where libraries, colleges, public baths were established and literature, poetry and architecture flourished. Both Muslims and non-Muslims made major contributions to this flowering of culture.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

 

[Parrothead]

Stability in Muslim Spain came with the establishment of the Andalusian Umayyad dynasty, which lasted from 756 to 1031.

The credit goes to Amir Abd al-Rahman, who founded the Emirate of Cordoba, and was able to get the various different Muslim groups who had conquered Spain to pull together in ruling it.

The Muslim period in Spain is often described as a 'golden age' of learning where libraries, colleges, public baths were established and literature, poetry and architecture flourished. Both Muslims and non-Muslims made major contributions to this flowering of culture.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

were you there??

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Tim is the one who wanted to use Wiki as a source. The only thing Wiki represents is whose activists are more active in editing the site.

Can you actually make a response instead of just some some lame emoticon response? It is an accurate statement of what Wiki is on political subjects, so I have no idea what your counterpoint is, except maybe you don't have one.

You stepped in it with your dumb response to Tim. I was just pointing out your hilarious gaffe. I'm not actually trying to debate with you; you've consistently demonstrated your inability to do so in any reasonable way. It's not worth anyone's time.

 

[timschochet]

Jews don't have as fond of memories of Cordoba as the Muslims seem to. It is quite a debate between the historians between the two sides.

Yeah, well let me tell you, as someone who studies a lot of Jewish history- Jews don't have fond memories of ANYTHING. How many other people have major holidays that mark various periods of suffering? The basic theme of Jewish holidays is "Thank you God, for not killing all of us that time..."

 

[jon_mx]

Stability in Muslim Spain came with the establishment of the Andalusian Umayyad dynasty, which lasted from 756 to 1031.

The credit goes to Amir Abd al-Rahman, who founded the Emirate of Cordoba, and was able to get the various different Muslim groups who had conquered Spain to pull together in ruling it.

The Muslim period in Spain is often described as a 'golden age' of learning where libraries, colleges, public baths were established and literature, poetry and architecture flourished. Both Muslims and non-Muslims made major contributions to this flowering of culture.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

That is the Muslim utopia spin I was telling you about, which wasn't quite the whole truth.

 

[timschochet]

And speaking of holidays, do you suppose some Greek gets offended whenever I light a Hannukah candle?

 

[McJose]

From Wiki:

The sponsors of Cordoba House said the name was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, Spain, a time and a place where Muslims, Christians, and Jews co-existed peacefully.

The funny thing about wiki is a month ago the entry for Cordoba Spain read as:

During this time Cordoba was one of the largest cities in the world whose name continues to represent a symbol of Islamic conquest to many faithful Muslims around the world.

Funny how it changed after the crap hit the fan.....the city was conquered and ruled by ruthless thugs, and you want to spin that as peaceful coexistance. Come on Tim, you are smarter than that. It is like saying America stands for the peaceful coexistence with Indians...

I taught 7th grade History for a while...many years before 9/11. One of the units was on the spread and empires of Islam. I distinctly remember a passage in the textbook mentioning that Cordoba was well known as a place where Christians, Jews and Muslims lived together in peace. I never saw it portrayed as a "symbol for Islamic conquests". If anything it was seen as center of culture and learning. From what I recall it was probably the most "advanced" city in Europe during that time frame.

 

[El Floppo]

Stability in Muslim Spain came with the establishment of the Andalusian Umayyad dynasty, which lasted from 756 to 1031.

The credit goes to Amir Abd al-Rahman, who founded the Emirate of Cordoba, and was able to get the various different Muslim groups who had conquered Spain to pull together in ruling it.

The Muslim period in Spain is often described as a 'golden age' of learning where libraries, colleges, public baths were established and literature, poetry and architecture flourished. Both Muslims and non-Muslims made major contributions to this flowering of culture.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

That is the Muslim utopia spin I was telling you about, which wasn't quite the whole truth.

So if it doesn't jibe with something that backs your acute point of view, it's "spin"?

Did you study this "history" anywhere, or are you just brushing up only from sources that are against this cultural center?

 

[Radio Free Homer]

Can you provide a link for that other than the Wiki "previously edited" page? Not to doubt you bonafides as a scholar of Islam or pan-Arabic history.

Here is a BBC sourced piece which provides a fairly balanced article albeit from a leftist source of the Muslim rule in spain. I will pull a few that shed a different light than what the utopia Muslim version.

The true position is more complicated. The distinguished historian Bernard Lewis wrote that the status of non-Muslims in Islamic Spain was a sort of second-class citizenship but he went on to say:

Second-class citizenship, though second class, is a kind of citizenship. It involves some rights, though not all, and is surely better than no rights at all...

...A recognized status, albeit one of inferiority to the dominant group, which is established by law, recognized by tradition, and confirmed by popular assent, is not to be despised.

Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam, 1984

In Islamic Spain, Jews and Christians were tolerated if they:

acknowledged Islamic superiority

accepted Islamic power

paid a tax called Jizya to the Muslim rulers and sometimes paid higher rates of other taxes

avoided blasphemy

did not try to convert Muslims

complied with the rules laid down by the authorities. These included:

restrictions on clothing and the need to wear a special badge

restrictions on building synagogues and churches

not allowed to carry weapons

could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim

could not bequeath anything to a Muslim

could not own a Muslim slave

a dhimmi man could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)

a dhimmi could not give evidence in an Islamic court

dhimmis would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury

At times there were restrictions on practicing one's faith too obviously. Bell-ringing or chanting too loudly were frowned on and public processions were restricted.

Many Christians in Spain assimilated parts of the Muslim culture. Some learned Arabic, some adopted the same clothes as their rulers (some Christian women even started wearing the veil); some took Arabic names. Christians who did this were known as Mozarabs.

The Muslim rulers didn't give their non-Muslim subjects equal status; as Bat Ye'or has stated, the non-Muslims came definitely at the bottom of society.

Damn, that completely destroys the Muslim Utopia I was trying to sell.

 

[McJose]

Damn, that completely destroys the Muslim Utopia I was trying to sell.

band name

 

[jon_mx]

So if it doesn't jibe with something that backs your acute point of view, it's "spin"?Did you study this "history" anywhere, or are you just brushing up only from sources that are against this cultural center?

The source I posted offered both views of history. So yes, history is spun on how it is presented. If some historians want to call something a 'Golden Age' and ignore that the predominately Christian population was conquered by Muslims and treated as second class citizens, then yes they are spinning. I don't consider living under the rule of oppressors a Golden Age. I will give the Muslims credit for at least knowing how to rule places where they were the minority. But they were clearly the rulers and Christian and Jews were clearly the subjects. Christians and Jews tend to make good peaceful subjects. If your idea of promoting multiculturalism is an example of westerners living under Muslim rule, then we will just have to disagree.

 

[timschochet]

So if it doesn't jibe with something that backs your acute point of view, it's "spin"?Did you study this "history" anywhere, or are you just brushing up only from sources that are against this cultural center?

The source I posted offered both views of history. So yes, history is spun on how it is presented. If some historians want to call something a 'Golden Age' and ignore that the predominately Christian population was conquered by Muslims and treated as second class citizens, then yes they are spinning. I don't consider living under the rule of oppressors a Golden Age. I will give the Muslims credit for at least knowing how to rule places where they were the minority. But they were clearly the rulers and Christian and Jews were clearly the subjects. Christians and Jews tend to make good peaceful subjects. If your idea of multiculturalism is living under Muslim rule, then we will just have to disagree.

But that wasn't your point. You and others have asserted that the reason this particular movement is called "The Cordoba Initiative" is to symbolize the conquering of the west by Islam. That's not what they've ever stated. There's no shred of evidence that this is what was intended. So all you have is a little conspiracy with nothing to back you up.

 

[McJose]

So if it doesn't jibe with something that backs your acute point of view, it's "spin"?Did you study this "history" anywhere, or are you just brushing up only from sources that are against this cultural center?

The source I posted offered both views of history. So yes, history is spun on how it is presented. If some historians want to call something a 'Golden Age' and ignore that the predominately Christian population was conquered by Muslims and treated as second class citizens, then yes they are spinning.

I'm pretty sure "Golden Age" refers to culture, education, art etc. Do a little research into the kinds of things they did in Islamic Spain during this time. While you're at it check out what was going on in Baghdad during its "Golden Age".

 

[Radio Free Homer]

So if it doesn't jibe with something that backs your acute point of view, it's "spin"?Did you study this "history" anywhere, or are you just brushing up only from sources that are against this cultural center?

The source I posted offered both views of history. So yes, history is spun on how it is presented. If some historians want to call something a 'Golden Age' and ignore that the predominately Christian population was conquered by Muslims and treated as second class citizens, then yes they are spinning. I don't consider living under the rule of oppressors a Golden Age. I will give the Muslims credit for at least knowing how to rule places where they were the minority. But they were clearly the rulers and Christian and Jews were clearly the subjects. Christians and Jews tend to make good peaceful subjects. If your idea of promoting multiculturalism is an example of westerners living under Muslim rule, then we will just have to disagree.

Wow. I really wish you could make like a weekly thread where you shine that brilliant light upon other aspects of human history.

 

[mad sweeney]

So if it doesn't jibe with something that backs your acute point of view, it's "spin"?Did you study this "history" anywhere, or are you just brushing up only from sources that are against this cultural center?

The source I posted offered both views of history. So yes, history is spun on how it is presented. If some historians want to call something a 'Golden Age' and ignore that the predominately Christian population was conquered by Muslims and treated as second class citizens, then yes they are spinning. I don't consider living under the rule of oppressors a Golden Age. I will give the Muslims credit for at least knowing how to rule places where they were the minority. But they were clearly the rulers and Christian and Jews were clearly the subjects. Christians and Jews tend to make good peaceful subjects. If your idea of promoting multiculturalism is an example of westerners living under Muslim rule, then we will just have to disagree.

Wow. I really wish you could make like a weekly thread where you shine that brilliant light upon other aspects of human history.

Jon could do the play by play and Burton could be the color guy.

 

[timschochet]

jon mx is upset at me because I referred to his side on this issue as ignorant. Conservatives here in general are upset with me because I have written that opposition to this cultural center is based on ignorance and fear. But if you read the last series of exchanges, what other conclusion can we draw? They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

 

[El Floppo]

So if it doesn't jibe with something that backs your acute point of view, it's "spin"?Did you study this "history" anywhere, or are you just brushing up only from sources that are against this cultural center?

The source I posted offered both views of history. So yes, history is spun on how it is presented. If some historians want to call something a 'Golden Age' and ignore that the predominately Christian population was conquered by Muslims and treated as second class citizens, then yes they are spinning. I don't consider living under the rule of oppressors a Golden Age. I will give the Muslims credit for at least knowing how to rule places where they were the minority. But they were clearly the rulers and Christian and Jews were clearly the subjects. Christians and Jews tend to make good peaceful subjects. If your idea of multiculturalism is living under Muslim rule, then we will just have to disagree.

But that wasn't your point. You and others have asserted that the reason this particular movement is called "The Cordoba Initiative" is to symbolize the conquering of the west by Islam. That's not what they've ever stated. There's no shred of evidence that this is what was intended. So all you have is a little conspiracy with nothing to back you up.

Somewhat fair point about history, jon- one of the best teachers I ever had (US HIstory in HS.... relative of GEn Sherman) had us for our first homework assignment find an example of history being told "differently" based on source material. HAd us limit to "fact only" rather than opinion.... that was an eye-opener. Archaeology courses in college backed that up- had a segment about trhe history of archaeology and how each culture digging would transpose their own values onto whatever it was they were finding (Chinese saw collective work behind everything, etc...)And my idea of multiculturalism is this precise moment in history in this country.... but there's always room for improvement. I wonder though- during this reign of Cordoba, how were Jews and Muslims treated under Christian rule elsewhere? Hugs and kisses and equally?And fwiw-what I've heard straight along from the people behind this cultural center is that they wanted something like the JCC on the upper west side. Main difference, I think, is that the JCC doesn't have a temple (could be wrong there).

 

[jon_mx]

So if it doesn't jibe with something that backs your acute point of view, it's "spin"?Did you study this "history" anywhere, or are you just brushing up only from sources that are against this cultural center?

The source I posted offered both views of history. So yes, history is spun on how it is presented. If some historians want to call something a 'Golden Age' and ignore that the predominately Christian population was conquered by Muslims and treated as second class citizens, then yes they are spinning. I don't consider living under the rule of oppressors a Golden Age. I will give the Muslims credit for at least knowing how to rule places where they were the minority. But they were clearly the rulers and Christian and Jews were clearly the subjects. Christians and Jews tend to make good peaceful subjects. If your idea of multiculturalism is living under Muslim rule, then we will just have to disagree.

But that wasn't your point. You and others have asserted that the reason this particular movement is called "The Cordoba Initiative" is to symbolize the conquering of the west by Islam. That's not what they've ever stated. There's no shred of evidence that this is what was intended. So all you have is a little conspiracy with nothing to back you up.

It is circumstantial, but there is plenty of evidence to indicate something fishy is going on here. Why would a group that stated purpose is to promote multiculturism chose the most provocative site imaginable? How did the smallish organization which only had about $20,000 on record, come up with $100 million for this project? Why does a peace-loving and provider of goodwill of an organization choose a name a city which was the centerpiece of their conquered kingdom? It is not exactly rocket science to put 2 + 2 together. If you wish to continue the demagoguery with your numerous false assertions, that is your prerogative. I just look at this situation and know something is wrong. Of course the facts will not come out until it is too late. But I will keep pushing for those facts. The story being pushed makes zero sense to anyone of intelligence.

 

[tommyboy]

Cordoba may be held up as a place of tolerance but also its a place where muslims conquered and then built a mosque on a christian church. Just a little history for you.

 

[Phase of the Game]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

 

[timschochet]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

 

[Phase of the Game]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

That comment alone shows once again that you are an idiot.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

So Fox news is the only reason why people don't want the mosque built there? Wow!

 

[MongoL3]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

Ya know Tim. I seldom agree with what you post but you seem ok for the most part. But sometimes you are really wacked man....

 

[Parrothead]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

wow.. so FoxNews is behind this.. no wonder the Obama administration is terrified of them.. they must weild some serious power..

 

[jon_mx]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

So Fox news is the only reason why people don't want the mosque built there? Wow!

And they think I am the paranoid conspiracy freak.

 

[MongoL3]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

So Fox news is the only reason why people don't want the mosque built there? Wow!

And they think I am the paranoid conspiracy freak.

Tim needs to volunteer to have them build the mosque in his backyard, that would impress me....

 

[badmojo1006]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

That comment alone shows once again that you are an idiot.

Ahhh, you don't agree with his comment call him an idiot. I don't agree with tim a lot of the time, but he is intelligent and has well thought if not long posts.Is that the best you got? Or is the schoolyard insults the best you can do?

 

[Phase of the Game]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

That comment alone shows once again that you are an idiot.

Ahhh, you don't agree with his comment call him an idiot. I don't agree with tim a lot of the time, but he is intelligent and has well thought if not long posts.Is that the best you got? Or is the schoolyard insults the best you can do?

Well...considering what he wrote what I said was very very mild. And no....it wasn't the best I have.....I want to keep it clean.

 

[jon_mx]

Ahhh, you don't agree with his comment call him an idiot. I don't agree with tim a lot of the time, but he is intelligent and has well thought if not long posts.Is that the best you got? Or is the schoolyard insults the best you can do?

Seems to be the tactic used 90% of the time to my posts. Tim just got done calling everyone ignorant who disagrees with his viewpoint. So what is wrong with a bit of turnabout?

 

[Ookie Pringle]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

Ya know Tim. I seldom agree with what you post but you seem ok for the most part. But sometimes you are really wacked man....

 

[timschochet]

Well first off, I am whacked. And sometimes I behave like an idiot. But I am not sure what is either whacked or idiotic about what I wrote. This was a story in a few newspapers and on the internet. Fox News picked it up and ran with it, and turned it into a major story, which it has been ever since. There is no conspiracy here; I accuse Fox of nothing except trying to make money by promoting sensational news stories. Because of the ramifications of this one, I happen to deplore their decision to run with it, but that's nothing new for me.

 

[Christo]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

That comment alone shows once again that you are an idiot.

Ahhh, you don't agree with his comment call him an idiot. I don't agree with tim a lot of the time, but he is intelligent and has well thought if not long posts.Is that the best you got? Or is the schoolyard insults the best you can do?

Give me a break. Tim's MO is to take a stand on shaky ground, not budge until everyone and their dog has told him he's wrong and then admit he might have to re-think his position based upon "new" facts. And usually that only happens after someone he claims to respect chimes in.

 

[jon_mx]

Well first off, I am whacked. And sometimes I behave like an idiot. But I am not sure what is either whacked or idiotic about what I wrote. This was a story in a few newspapers and on the internet. Fox News picked it up and ran with it, and turned it into a major story, which it has been ever since. There is no conspiracy here; I accuse Fox of nothing except trying to make money by promoting sensational news stories. Because of the ramifications of this one, I happen to deplore their decision to run with it, but that's nothing new for me.

FoxNews, Rush Limbaugh, whoever. They don't make news big. They report news and sometimes it resonates with lots of people. It is whacky that you really think FoxNews is so powerful that it controls how people think. I haven't watched FoxNews or listened to any talk radio personal in months. I just read the story and responded to it. I have no idea what Newt Gingrich said, I researched it myself. Just because you don't understand people's viewpoints doesn't make them dumb or brain-dead robots, they just have different values and view stories differently. You are getting very frustrated and resorting to personal attacks, which makes no sense at all. I thought I have offered rationale arguments throughout this thread and all you can do is accuse me of being an ignorant bigot. That is BS.

 

[MongoL3]

 

[mad sweeney]

Cordoba may be held up as a place of tolerance but also its a place where muslims conquered and then built a mosque on a christian church. Just a little history for you.

And the US is a place where anglos conquered and built a nation while enslaving, slaughtering, removing, etc... almost an entire indigenous population, yet we celebrate Thanksgiving Day and Independence Day by focusing on the good things those actions did for us.

 

[El Floppo]

fwiw, from the NYTimes a bit ago.... captures what my impression of this has been

For Mosque Sponsors, Early Missteps Fueled Storm

By ANNE BARNARD

Published: August 10, 2010

Joy Levitt, executive director of the Jewish Community Center on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, remembers her first conversation with Daisy Khan around 2005, years before Ms. Khan’s idea for a Muslim community center in Lower Manhattan morphed into a controversy about Sept. 11, Islam and freedom of religion.

Joy Levitt is the head of the Jewish Community Center, the model for the Muslim center.

“Strollers,” said Ms. Levitt, whom Ms. Khan had approached for advice on how to build an institution like the Jewish center — with a swimming pool, art classes and joint projects with other religious groups. Ms. Levitt, a rabbi, urged Ms. Khan to focus on practical matters like a decent wedding hall and stroller parking.

“You can use all these big words like diversity and pluralism,” Ms. Levitt recalled telling Ms. Khan, noting that with the population of toddlers booming in Manhattan, “I’m down in the lobby dealing with the 500 strollers.”

Clearly, the idea that Ms. Khan and her partners would one day be accused of building a victory monument to terrorism did not come up — an oversight with consequences. The organizers built support among some Jewish and Christian groups, and even among some families of 9/11 victims, but did little to engage with likely opponents. More strikingly, they did not seek the advice of established Muslim organizations experienced in volatile post-9/11 passions and politics.

The organizers — chiefly Ms. Khan; her husband, the imam of a mosque in the financial district; and a young real-estate investor born in New York — did not hire a public-relations firm until after the hostility exploded in May. They went ahead with their first public presentation of the project — a voluntary appearance at a community board meeting in Lower Manhattan — just after an American Muslim, Faisal Shahzad, was arrested for planting a car bomb in Times Square.

“It never occurred to us,” Ms. Khan said. “We have been bridge builders for years.”

How Ms. Khan’s early brainstorming led to today’s combustible debate, one often characterized by powerful emotions and mistaken information, is a combination of arguable naïveté, public-relations missteps and a national political climate in which perhaps no preparation could have headed off controversy.

As a result, supporters of the $100 million center, named Park51, which received its final approval from the city last week, are now beginning their fund-raising and detailed planning amid a broader battle. The future of the center — organizers say it will have a mosque, but its 15 floors will be mainly for other functions — has become grist for talk radio, cable television and election fights across the country.

Sharif el-Gamal, the developer on the project, said ironically in an interview Friday, “This might become the most famous community center in the world.”

For American Muslims, the stakes have become painfully high.

“It has repercussions for the entire community,” said Robina Niaz, who runs Turning Point, a group that fights domestic violence among Muslims. “What it has done is suddenly made it legitimate for everybody else out there to lash out at Muslims. It has brought us together. But it also shows how much work we have to do.”

In 1999, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, Ms. Khan’s husband, tried to buy the former McBurney Y.M.C.A. on 23rd Street in Manhattan, telling the seller’s broker, David Lebenstein, that he planned a kind of Muslim Y.

Knowing that the 1993 World Trade Center bombing still left raw nerves in New York, the imam assured Mr. Lebenstein, “We’re not the ones doing bombs; we’re moderates and Americans.”

The sale would have gone through but for financing difficulties, said Mr. Lebenstein, the son of a Holocaust survivor. Imam Feisal is in Malaysia and could not be reached for comment for this article.

Imam Feisal, 62, moved to the United States as a teenager with his father, an Egyptian imam, and graduated from Columbia University. Until 2009, he was the Friday prayer leader at Masjid al Farah, a mosque in the Sufi tradition, which emphasizes mysticism and tolerance. The mosque was established two decades ago and is 12 blocks from the World Trade Center.

His sermons were infused with a “sweet spirituality,” not focused on “rules and regulations” or politics, said Adem Carroll, director of the Muslim Consultative Network, an advocacy group based in New York. Those sermons attracted his two allies in the current project, slated to be built at 45-51 Park Place.

isy Khan, who immigrated, also as a teenager, to Jericho, on Long Island, from Kashmir, married Imam Feisal in 1997. They founded a Sufi organization advocating melding Islamic observance with women’s rights and modernity. After 9/11 they raised their profile, renaming the group the American Society for Muslim Advancement and focusing on connecting Muslims and wider American society. They spoke out against religious violence; the imam advised the F.B.I.; his wife joined an advisory panel of the 9/11 memorial and museum.

Sharif El-Gamal, chief executive of SoHo Properties, is the real estate developer behind the Muslim center. After meeting with opponents, he said, he bridled at constantly defending himself.

A few years later, Sharif el-Gamal, a developer whose Egyptian father was a Chemical Bank executive, asked the imam to perform his wedding.

Mr. Gamal, who headed SoHo Properties, agreed around 2006 to join the effort. In 2009, he bought two adjacent buildings on Park Place, where the imam began holding services. Only then did the organizers start reaching out more widely about their idea.

On top of the fear and confusion in New York about Islam after 9/11, a movement had begun to spring up against Muslims seeking a larger role in American public life. In 2007, Debbie Almontaser, a Muslim educator, had been forced to resign as the principal of an Arabic-language public school in Brooklyn after such groups helped paint her as supporting terrorism.

But the center’s organizers said they had little indication they were flying into a storm.

Ms. Khan had continued meeting with Ms. Levitt; she remembers worrying less about strollers than “the street cart problem” — where would Senegalese street vendors, a subset of Muslims working downtown, stow their wares while at the center?

Ms. Levitt remembers advising the organizers to line up potential members and financiers — for instance, Muslims throughout the region — before proposing a building. But Mr. Gamal said he wanted to first find property and make sure downtown residents and officials wanted the center.

If he promised something to Muslims and did not deliver, he explained, “I would lose face within my community.”

Ms. Khan said they were confident Muslims would back the center and thought it more important to talk to politicians and leaders of other religious groups.

Leaders of Muslim advocacy groups in New York note the imam and his wife had not often worked with grass-roots Muslim groups, and wonder if they wanted to avoid appearing “too Muslim.” The organizers say they did not.

Organizers talked with Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg about the plan in September 2009, at a Gracie Mansion Ramadan fast-breaking for Muslim leaders. A New York Times article last December about the project drew little negative comment.

In February, the staff of Scott M. Stringer, the Manhattan borough president, who liked the idea, suggested the organizers present it to Community Board 1, the largely advisory body that represents the neighborhood. Planners agreed to share information before the board and respond to expected questions about congestion and how the neighborhood could benefit.

Mr. Stringer said nobody warned them of “an Islamic issue,” adding with a weary chuckle, “We really give good advice.”

Preparing for a May 5 community board meeting, Ms. Khan got support from her usual allies, like the United Jewish Federation of New York; Trinity Church; and the September 11 Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow.

Some people raised concerns about the feelings of 9/11 victims, but the meeting was dominated by logistical concerns and support from those who welcomed new facilities downtown. The board gave a unanimous yes.

The next day, the uproar began. Some newspapers referred to the project as the “W.T.C. mosque.” Mr. Shahzad had been arrested late on May 3 in the attempted Times Square bombing. The community board office began receiving “hundreds and hundreds” of angry calls, and e-mails from around the world, said its chairwoman, Julie Menin, some threatening enough that she requested riot police for the next meeting.

The organizers were shocked. Many supporters say that their failure to imagine the backlash left them ill prepared to defuse it.

On May 18, the organizers held a conference call with supporters, and soon hired a crisis public-relations firm.

Ms. Menin of the community board urged Ms. Khan and the mayor’s office to hold a public forum to clear the air before the next community board meeting on May 25; they could, for instance, make clear that their congregation had worshiped in the neighborhood for years.

“It would have defused some of the problems, absolutely,” Ms. Menin said. But the public forum was not held.

Nevertheless, the project’s original backers held firm. When the city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission on Aug. 3 removed the only legal hurdle, Mr. Bloomberg gave a passionate speech assailing the project’s critics as trampling religious freedom. American Muslims — including some groups not initially consulted — rallied to the project’s defense.

Mr. Gamal said that since May, he had started meeting in private with opponents to explain himself. But he bridled at constantly defending himself publicly. He said he didn’t want to tell angry opponents how he had injured his eye handing out water to emergency workers on 9/11.

He didn’t feel that he should have to, he said. He refused recently to appear on CNN to debate Rick A. Lazio, the Republican candidate for governor who has come out against the project.

“This is not a debate,” Mr. Gamal said. “I’m an American. I’m a New Yorker. I’m exercising my freedoms in this country.” There is little he would do differently, he said. “There’s no textbook that you can follow.”

Nor, it seems, a blueprint about what to do next.

On Tuesday night, organizers met with a wider range of 9/11 victim families. Ms. Menin is still calling for a town hall meeting.

“You have to deal with the uncomfortableness and controversy head-on,” Ms. Menin said.

 

[mad sweeney]

Well first off, I am whacked. And sometimes I behave like an idiot. But I am not sure what is either whacked or idiotic about what I wrote. This was a story in a few newspapers and on the internet. Fox News picked it up and ran with it, and turned it into a major story, which it has been ever since. There is no conspiracy here; I accuse Fox of nothing except trying to make money by promoting sensational news stories. Because of the ramifications of this one, I happen to deplore their decision to run with it, but that's nothing new for me.

FoxNews, Rush Limbaugh, whoever. They don't make news big. They report news and sometimes it resonates with lots of people. It is whacky that you really think FoxNews is so powerful that it controls how people think. I haven't watched FoxNews or listened to any talk radio personal in months. I just read the story and responded to it. I have no idea what Newt Gingrich said, I researched it myself. Just because you don't understand people's viewpoints doesn't make them dumb or brain-dead robots, they just have different values and view stories differently. You are getting very frustrated and resorting to personal attacks, which makes no sense at all. I thought I have offered rationale arguments throughout this thread and all you can do is accuse me of being an ignorant bigot. That is BS.

You thought wrong. Very few of your ideas are rational, unless of course, gut feelings are rational. Most of your info comes from dubious sources, including one source that you shot down as a source after you used it.

 

[Burton]

Cordoba may be held up as a place of tolerance but also its a place where muslims conquered and then built a mosque on a christian church. Just a little history for you.

And the US is a place where anglos conquered and built a nation while enslaving, slaughtering, removing, etc... almost an entire indigenous population, yet we celebrate Thanksgiving Day and Independence Day by focusing on the good things those actions did for us.

This is a completely biased viewpoint of American history which only demonstrates how far leftist propaganda has reached into our society. The vast majority of native Americans, perhaps 90% of them or more, perished because of disease that the white man brought with him from Europe. Regrettable? Yes, certainly. But not on purpose and nobody's fault.

 

[Radio Free Homer]

fwiw, from the NYTimes a bit ago.... captures what my impression of this has been

For Mosque Sponsors, Early Missteps Fueled Storm

By ANNE BARNARD

Published: August 10, 2010

Sounds like a bunch of terrorists to me.

 

[timschochet]

I thought I have offered rationale arguments throughout this thread and all you can do is accuse me of being an ignorant bigot. That is BS.

I need to repeat an important distinction, which I have made in the past, apparently to no avail: It's true I consider your views on this issue to be ignorant, and I tried to demonstrate why I believed that. I do not, however, consider YOU to be ignorant, only your views on this particular subject. Perhaps this distinction is meaningless to you but it is important to me. I certainly have never meant to insult you personally. Some people have accused me of considering everyone who disagrees with me to be ignorant. Again, this is not the case. There are several issues in which I disagree with you, Jon, for instance, but which I do not consider your position to be ignorant- the future of the Bush tax cuts are an example. I only consider a position ignorant when it either believes or spreads information which is demonstrably false, or is not aware of further information which would change one's viewpoint. I have discovered myself ignorant on a whole host of issues. When I find out where I was wrong, sometimes I change my mind. Christo has disdainfully reported this as my M.O. But actually, I am proud of being able to change my mind when new information calls for it, and I wish others did the same. As far as calling you a bigot, I would never do that. Are you views bigoted in this situation? Not necessarily, but as in the cases of illegal immigration and gay marriage, I believe views such as yours help to promote bigotry, and that is a real problem.

 

[mad sweeney]

fwiw, from the NYTimes a bit ago.... captures what my impression of this has been

For Mosque Sponsors, Early Missteps Fueled Storm

By ANNE BARNARD

Published: August 10, 2010

Sounds like a bunch of terrorists to me.

Deep, deep sleepers...You've been warned by Jon_oh11!

 

[McJose]

Cordoba may be held up as a place of tolerance but also its a place where muslims conquered and then built a mosque on a christian church. Just a little history for you.

And the US is a place where anglos conquered and built a nation while enslaving, slaughtering, removing, etc... almost an entire indigenous population, yet we celebrate Thanksgiving Day and Independence Day by focusing on the good things those actions did for us.

This is a completely biased viewpoint of American history which only demonstrates how far leftist propaganda has reached into our society. The vast majority of native Americans, perhaps 90% of them or more, perished because of disease that the white man brought with him from Europe. Regrettable? Yes, certainly. But not on purpose and nobody's fault.

So kicking the living crap out of the other 10% was cool I guess.

 

[Christo]

Some people have accused me of considering everyone who disagrees with me to be ignorant. Again, this is not the case. There are several issues in which I disagree with you, Jon, for instance, but which I do not consider your position to be ignorant- the future of the Bush tax cuts are an example. I only consider a position ignorant when it either believes or spreads information which is demonstrably false, or is not aware of further information which would change one's viewpoint. I have discovered myself ignorant on a whole host of issues. When I find out where I was wrong, sometimes I change my mind. Christo has disdainfully reported this as my M.O. But actually, I am proud of being able to change my mind when new information calls for it, and I wish others did the same.

The "new" was in quotes for a reason.

 

[Gigantomachia]

i love people who claim to speak for "americans". no one is saying you cant ##### and complain, knock yourself out, but to think the mob should be allowed to stop someone from building on private property is hypocrisy at its finest. and you can try your hand at wit all you want, that aint gonna change the facts one bit.

Why? Is there something wrong with people coming collectively together and opposing something? Seems like America to me. Why when the rightwing gets some momentum together and is successful that is all of a sudden it is unAmerican?

You are aware you are arguing with a hypocrite right?

who are u?

 

[ericttspikes]

They're spreading false, hateful lies about this, and the American public watches Fox News and swallows it up. It's completely maddening.

Just an FYI....there are people opposed to having the mosque built there that don't watch Fox and aren't Republican.

Then you're getting your news second hand, because Fox is the one that started it all and ramped this story up.

wow.. so FoxNews is behind this.. no wonder the Obama administration is terrified of them.. they must weild some serious power..

You don't think a deep pocketed "news" organization who has "reported" verified lies in the past (death panels, Islamic star and crescent are in the logo of the Nuclear Security Summit, Obama's $3.6 trillion budget is 4x bigger than Bush's, Obama a muslim) gins up stories sympathetic to the extreme right (fear of non-whites; drug cartels on the border/911 mosque/Sherrod, Black Panthers, Acorn, ACLU will put you in jail for prayer, etc.) and has a huge viewership wouldn't be terrifying to them? They are Moveon.org on steroids.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Cordoba may be held up as a place of tolerance but also its a place where muslims conquered and then built a mosque on a christian church. Just a little history for you.

I like how you get the rolling of the eyes if you talk about the Crusades or some other part of history when saying that Christianity is littered with violence, but people seem to be stuck on the name of the center because it could have been a place of Muslim conquests 1200 years ago. Come on, you can't have it both ways.