My Manning Theory (1 Viewer)

[Doubtingthomas]

I think the explanation for Peyton Mannings lack of success in the playoffs is his talent level. His assets are a quick release and accuracy but we all know he has never had a canon of an arm by NFL standards. Clearly anything that has to do with his legs are average at best. He beats teams with his preperation and intensity. When playoffs come around other teams are more focussed. This takes away the edge Manning has in the run of the mill regular season game.

In the time manning has been in the league I think he actually has been the least talented of the elite QBs.

In Mannings time in the NFL a list of QBs who have had more physical talent IMO. Not all of these might be considered great but at least had nice runs at some point.

Culpepper, Farve, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Roethesberger, Warner is similar but my impression is he had a stronger arm, Vick. If we expand the list to all time greats I think he comes in pretty low in the list based solely on physical talent.

I'm not sure what player has had more success with less talent.

 

[Sir Psycho]

Humm, no.

 

[Doubtingthomas]

So my question is do people think he has over or undr performed based solely on physical talent forvhis career?

 

[Dizzy]

He's a fantastic QB, but he's frontrunner. Nothing wrong with that... as long as you're in front.

McNabb, Romo, Marino, Fouts... all great frontrunners as well.

 

[Ghost Rider]

As awesome as Peyton is, I feel like he sometimes outsmarts himself by "always" going with the percentage play call instead of taking more chances. For example, he kept changing the play the other day to runs on 3rd and 1, because the defense was showing a defense that was set to defend pass, but you don't think defenses are good at disguising themselves to look like they are ready for the pass, but really set up to stop the run? In cases like that, I'd like to see Peyton sometimes say,"they are ready to defend the pass, but I am gonna throw anyway." Going with the percentage play works out probably 90% for Peyton, but there are times where I do think his computer-like brain is too dead set on going with the statistically most likely to succeed play (like calling a draw on 3rd and 9 and picking up 7 yards...sure, a 7-yard run is good most of the time, but not when you need 9 yards).

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

He's had a problem in the playoffs with key turovers. If you look at the 2006 AFCC game, the one season where he won a Super Bowl he was very lucky to get out that one a winner, he basically put his team in a 21-3 hole with a pick-6 for NE.

Some of the early games with the Colts he and the team were still young, but later it becomes more and more on him.

The games become harder and harder and the weight becomes too much for one player, I don't know that he really lets other teammates win games for his team. If there's a flaw that might be it.

 

[Hang 10]

He's a choker. A great player but a choker none the less.

 

[Doubtingthomas]

He's a fantastic QB, but he's frontrunner. Nothing wrong with that... as long as you're in front.

McNabb, Romo, Marino, Fouts... all great frontrunners as well.

I get what you are saying. But even this list of qbs if you could merge them with manning wouldnt yoy take manning above the shoulders and these four below it? which of these four does he match or beat in arm strength, mobilty, accuracy, speed of release?

 

[Doubtingthomas]

He's a choker. A great player but a choker none the less.

Im not sure that chokers win super bowls. Brady and Elway lost a lot of Super Bowls. They're not considered chokers.

 

[Sarnoff]

My theory is that he's lizard people. Not like, a lizard person that took over George Bush, but, two lizard people in the same body. If you look at the evidence, it makes sense.

 

[fantasycurse42]

My theory is that he's lizard people. Not like, a lizard person that took over George Bush, but, two lizard people in the same body. If you look at the evidence, it makes sense.

Great addition to the thread!

 

[domvin]

I am not gonna get all scientific.....but I think the negativity on Manning is BS. he's one of the greatest QBs of all time, and very close to the top.

 

[fantasycurse42]

It is quite simple, the guy doesn't have the ice in his veins, no killer instinct - The moment usually catches up to him...

Exactly what happened in Indy - He was a deer in headlights reliving the last 13 years.

 

[domvin]

It is quite simple, the guy doesn't have the ice in his veins, no killer instinct - The moment usually catches up to him...

Exactly what happened in Indy - He was a deer in headlights reliving the last 13 years.

His rbs fumbled the ball. @ the goalline Please stop.

 

[Doubtingthomas]

My theory is that he's lizard people. Not like, a lizard person that took over George Bush, but, two lizard people in the same body. If you look at the evidence, it makes sense.

Explains why he doesnt play well in the cold.

 

[fantasycurse42]

It is quite simple, the guy doesn't have the ice in his veins, no killer instinct - The moment usually catches up to him...

Exactly what happened in Indy - He was a deer in headlights reliving the last 13 years.

His rbs fumbled the ball. @ the goalline Please stop.

I get it, but he just looked different then he did over the first 6 weeks. Not taking away anything from the guy, he is great, but he just doesn't come through in the clutch.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I get it, but he just looked different then he did over the first 6 weeks. Not taking away anything from the guy, he is great, but he just doesn't come through in the clutch.

I'd love to hear a logical explanation on how a quarterback who is 119-33 as a starter since the start of the 2003 season doesn't come through in the clutch.

Unless you are one of those people who think that there are no big games in the regular season, which is a LOL-worthy comeback, I'd love to hear this one.

 

[Ghost Rider]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm

All-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks: Peyton Manning

But he is not clutch.

 

[domvin]

 

[fantasycurse42]

I get it, but he just looked different then he did over the first 6 weeks. Not taking away anything from the guy, he is great, but he just doesn't come through in the clutch.

I'd love to hear a logical explanation on how a quarterback who is 119-33 as a starter since the start of the 2003 season doesn't come through in the clutch.

Unless you are one of those people who think that there are no big games in the regular season, which is a LOL-worthy comeback, I'd love to hear this one.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm

All-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks: Peyton Manning

But he is not clutch.

Eli has won more Super Bowls then Peyton, F**cking Eli dude... He doesn't get the job done in the postseason. You don't get a ring for going 14-2 or 13-3... I said the guy is great, but he needs another ring maybe two more to get into the conversation of possibly all-time best

 

[Ghost Rider]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

 

[Doubtingthomas]

I get it, but he just looked different then he did over the first 6 weeks. Not taking away anything from the guy, he is great, but he just doesn't come through in the clutch.

I'd love to hear a logical explanation on how a quarterback who is 119-33 as a starter since the start of the 2003 season doesn't come through in the clutch.

Unless you are one of those people who think that there are no big games in the regular season, which is a LOL-worthy comeback, I'd love to hear this one.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm

All-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks: Peyton Manning

But he is not clutch.

Eli has won more Super Bowls then Peyton, F**cking Eli dude... He doesn't get the job done in the postseason. You don't get a ring for going 14-2 or 13-3... I said the guy is great, but he needs another ring maybe two more to get into

the conversation of possibly all-time best

So to redirect a little here, you think failure in postseason is due to his mental failings and not his physical talent level?

 

[fantasycurse42]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Why has he only won one Super Bowl?

 

[fantasycurse42]

I get it, but he just looked different then he did over the first 6 weeks. Not taking away anything from the guy, he is great, but he just doesn't come through in the clutch.

I'd love to hear a logical explanation on how a quarterback who is 119-33 as a starter since the start of the 2003 season doesn't come through in the clutch.

Unless you are one of those people who think that there are no big games in the regular season, which is a LOL-worthy comeback, I'd love to hear this one.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm

All-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks: Peyton Manning

But he is not clutch.

Eli has won more Super Bowls then Peyton, F**cking Eli dude... He doesn't get the job done in the postseason. You don't get a ring for going 14-2 or 13-3... I said the guy is great, but he needs another ring maybe two more to get into

the conversation of possibly all-time best

So to redirect a little here, you think failure in postseason is due to his mental failings and not his physical talent level?

Yes! He is clearly talented enough to win endless games - I think the moment gets to him sometimes...

 

[Ghost Rider]

. He doesn't get the job done in the postseason.

-22 of 26, for 377 yards, 5 TDs and 0 INTs, against the Broncos number 4 ranked defense in a 2003 wild card game.

-27 of 33, for 458 yards, 5 TDs and 1 INT, against the Broncos number 4 ranked defense in a 2004 wild card game.

-26 of 39, for 377 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs, against the Jets number 1 ranked defense in the 2009 AFCCG.

But yeah, Peyton doesn't get it done in the preseason.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Why has he only won one Super Bowl?

A variety of factors. It is never one player's fault why a team wins or loses, despite what some would have you believe. Has Peyton played poorly in some playoff losses? Absolutely. But so has every other QB in the history of the NFL who has been on teams that frequented the playoffs. Hell, Tom Brady has three home playoff losses in the last five years, and played poorly in all of them; are you gonna call him a non-clutch choker, too? I would hope not.

 

[lod01]

He's Favre without the drama. His last post season INT/flop was Favresque.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Why has he only won one Super Bowl?

A variety of factors. It is never one player's fault why a team wins or loses, despite what some would have you believe. Has Peyton played poorly in some playoff losses? Absolutely. But so has every other QB in the history of the NFL who has been on teams that frequented the playoffs. Hell, Tom Brady has three home playoff losses in the last five years, and played poorly in all of them; are you gonna call him a non-clutch choker, too? I would hope not.

No, I wouldn't - He has 3 rings

 

[Ghost Rider]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Why has he only won one Super Bowl?

A variety of factors. It is never one player's fault why a team wins or loses, despite what some would have you believe. Has Peyton played poorly in some playoff losses? Absolutely. But so has every other QB in the history of the NFL who has been on teams that frequented the playoffs. Hell, Tom Brady has three home playoff losses in the last five years, and played poorly in all of them; are you gonna call him a non-clutch choker, too? I would hope not.

No, I wouldn't - He has 3 rings

So, Troy Aikman and Terry Bradshaw are clutch, and Peyton Manning, Dan Fouts, Aaron Rodgers, Steve Young, Brett Favre, Kurt Warner and Drew Brees are not? Got it. Because rings alone dictate how clutch a QB is, in your world.

 

[Jewell]

In the time manning has been in the league I think he actually has been the least talented of the elite QBs.

In Mannings time in the NFL a list of QBs who have had more physical talent IMO. Not all of these might be considered great but at least had nice runs at some point.

Culpepper, Farve, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Roethesberger, Warner is similar but my impression is he had a stronger arm, Vick. If we expand the list to all time greats I think he comes in pretty low in the list based solely on physical talent.

I'm not sure what player has had more success with less talent.

Why are you limiting the definition of talent solely to physical traits like arm strength, running ability, etc.?

Manning's talent is that he's perhaps the most cerebral QB at the position that requires the most thinking. Manning's intelligence is his talent, and it's that talent that separates him from Culpepper, Favre, and many others. Manning's intelligence is a greater weapon than Vick's speed, Stafford's arm strength, and nearly all other QBs' defining physical traits.

 

[Sarnoff]

My theory is that he's lizard people. Not like, a lizard person that took over George Bush, but, two lizard people in the same body. If you look at the evidence, it makes sense.

Explains why he doesnt play well in the cold.

Excellent point. Also, why he licks his fingers so much.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Why has he only won one Super Bowl?

A variety of factors. It is never one player's fault why a team wins or loses, despite what some would have you believe. Has Peyton played poorly in some playoff losses? Absolutely. But so has every other QB in the history of the NFL who has been on teams that frequented the playoffs. Hell, Tom Brady has three home playoff losses in the last five years, and played poorly in all of them; are you gonna call him a non-clutch choker, too? I would hope not.

No, I wouldn't - He has 3 rings

So, Troy Aikman and Terry Bradshaw are clutch, and Peyton Manning, Dan Fouts, Aaron Rodgers, Steve Young, Brett Favre, Kurt Warner and Drew Brees are not? Got it. Because rings alone dictate how clutch a QB is, in your world.

I can't put him in the Montana - Elway conversation until he has at least one more ring. We can agree to disagree until then. I am def not the only person who has this opinion.

 

[MDSkinner]

It is quite simple, the guy doesn't have the ice in his veins, no killer instinct - The moment usually catches up to him...

Exactly what happened in Indy - He was a deer in headlights reliving the last 13 years.

As a Bears fan, I wish my QB would be a deer in the headlights with numbers like 29/49 386/3/1

Either you are a Pats fan (likely) or you just didn't watch the game. He absolutely did not look like a deer in the headlights.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I can't put him in the Montana - Elway conversation until he has at least one more ring. We can agree to disagree until then. I am def not the only person who has this opinion.

Okay, Elway is still my all-time favorite NFL player, but he had a 7-6 postseason record prior to getting Terrell Davis as his running back. I suspect if the Shark Pool were around, circa 1995, you would have been calling a ringless Elway at the time the biggest choker ever, with his zero rings, but many 4th quarter comebacks. Now, imagine Peyton Manning landed a running back the caliber of Terrell Davis right now...my gosh.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It is quite simple, the guy doesn't have the ice in his veins, no killer instinct - The moment usually catches up to him...

Exactly what happened in Indy - He was a deer in headlights reliving the last 13 years.

As a Bears fan, I wish my QB would be a deer in the headlights with numbers like 29/49 386/3/1

Either you are a Pats fan (likely) or you just didn't watch the game. He absolutely did not look like a deer in the headlights.

Haha, so true. Just about any QB getting drilled would have lost the ball on the fumble that resulted in the safety, or would have had an errant throw that was picked off later in the game. But Peyton critics love to blame him for everything, so they chalk those plays up to him choking, instead of actually looking at the play. Peyton actually played really well in that game, all things considered, and if not for a Ronnie Hillman fumble at the 2, despite everything that went wrong that game, and the constant pressure he was under cause his o-line played so poorly, Peyton might very well have pulled that game out.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Also, I would submit that anyone who doesn't think Peyton has ice in his veins did not see the comeback against the Chargers last year on MNF. That was as good as it gets.

 

[JHuber77]

This thread is a

Does Peyton Manning play defense? Does he play WR or RB? Last time I checked, football was a team game.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Those guys are all great QBs, but if we're talking clutch, Eli has them all beat.

 

[rick6668]

I can't put him in the Montana - Elway conversation until he has at least one more ring. We can agree to disagree until then. I am def not the only person who has this opinion.

Okay, Elway is still my all-time favorite NFL player, but he had a 7-6 postseason record prior to getting Terrell Davis as his running back. I suspect if the Shark Pool were around, circa 1995, you would have been calling a ringless Elway at the time the biggest choker ever, with his zero rings, but many 4th quarter comebacks. Now, imagine Peyton Manning landed a running back the caliber of Terrell Davis right now...my gosh.

 

[Mile High]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Those guys are all great QBs, but if we're talking clutch, Eli has them all beat.

Is Eli clutch or is Brady a choker?

 

[JustinHawkins]

Doug Williams #1 all time. Just look at his numbers

 

[Jayrod]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Those guys are all great QBs, but if we're talking clutch, Eli has them all beat.

Yes because his defensive line played lights out against the Pats and David Tyree made a lucky catch. Eli didn't "clutch" his way to that catch...he did a good job of escaping a rush and giving his WR a chance. I've seen that play fall incomplete or get intercepted the majority of the time. Without that fluke play, Eli is the same as Brees and Rodgers.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

Eli has more rings than Brees and Rodgers, too. I guess those guys are non-clutch chokers, too, right?

Those guys are all great QBs, but if we're talking clutch, Eli has them all beat.

Yes because his defensive line played lights out against the Pats and David Tyree made a lucky catch. Eli didn't "clutch" his way to that catch...he did a good job of escaping a rush and giving his WR a chance. I've seen that play fall incomplete or get intercepted the majority of the time. Without that fluke play, Eli is the same as Brees and Rodgers.

So you admit Eli is as good as Brees and Rodgers.

 

[Gvindy]

I think Peyton is lacking that calm demeanor that Eli has under pressure. He puts alot of pressure on himself to succeed. Maybe Eli being the younger brother, expectations were less historically, did something psychologically to the 2. Cooper, the eldest Manning went down with a career ending injury and I think P Manning put the weight of the Manning name on himself. Eli just plays on pure talent, and is unphased. Obviously Giants stink this year, but I think that has worked in his favor. My crazy Freudian assessment...

 

[Jello_Biafra]

Any Jets fan would love to have Peyton, Brees, or Rodgers as their QB, but as a Giants fan, I would never want any of them over Eli. It's not just the 2 SB wins, it's his all around clutch play that he has had throughout his career.

 

[cstu]

Any Jets fan would love to have Peyton, Brees, or Rodgers as their QB, but as a Giants fan, I would never want any of them over Eli. It's not just the 2 SB wins, it's his all around clutch play that he has had throughout his career.

Not sure if you're joking but Eli has never been an All-Pro and besides two great playoff runs has never won a playoff game. He's a glorified Flacco.

 

[msudaisy26]

. He doesn't get the job done in the postseason.

-22 of 26, for 377 yards, 5 TDs and 0 INTs, against the Broncos number 4 ranked defense in a 2003 wild card game.

-27 of 33, for 458 yards, 5 TDs and 1 INT, against the Broncos number 4 ranked defense in a 2004 wild card game.

-26 of 39, for 377 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs, against the Jets number 1 ranked defense in the 2009 AFCCG.

But yeah, Peyton doesn't get it done in the preseason.

I am sure you meant postseason but you named 3 games. The fact he is 9 - 11 in the postseason says something, the fact the one Super Bowl he won he was horrible that entire playoff except for the second half against New England.

It is pretty easy to cherry pick stats. Watch this

2002 Manning 14 - 31 137 yards 2ints

1999 Manning 19 - 43 227 yards

2010 Manning 18 - 26 225 yards 1 touchdown

In the 8 years Manning has went 1 and done in the playoffs he has 2075 yards 10 touchdown and 6 ints with a 82 passer raiting.

 

[Doubtingthomas]

In the time manning has been in the league I think he actually has been the least talented of the elite QBs.

In Mannings time in the NFL a list of QBs who have had more physical talent IMO. Not all of these might be considered great but at least had nice runs at some point.

Culpepper, Farve, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Roethesberger, Warner is similar but my impression is he had a stronger arm, Vick. If we expand the list to all time greats I think he comes in pretty low in the list based solely on physical talent.

I'm not sure what player has had more success with less talent.

Why are you limiting the definition of talent solely to physical traits like arm strength, running ability, etc.?Manning's talent is that he's perhaps the most cerebral QB at the position that requires the most thinking. Manning's intelligence is his talent, and it's that talent that separates him from Culpepper, Favre, and many others. Manning's intelligence is a greater weapon than Vick's speed, Stafford's arm strength, and nearly all other QBs' defining physical traits.

I'm not limiting it I am differenating it. My point is exactly that his mental talent is his greatest strength but when its matched or nullified by say jamming his wrs and throwing off the timing of the play he does not have extraordinary physical skill to pull off a big play. When was the last time you saw a jaw droppibg physical play from him, like say a vick scramble, an Elway escape and throw, a Farve bullet? A pass a run anything where you said maybe ten guys in the world could do that, or could do something to make the play successful?

 

[Doubtingthomas]

In the time manning has been in the league I think he actually has been the least talented of the elite QBs.

In Mannings time in the NFL a list of QBs who have had more physical talent IMO. Not all of these might be considered great but at least had nice runs at some point.

Culpepper, Farve, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Roethesberger, Warner is similar but my impression is he had a stronger arm, Vick. If we expand the list to all time greats I think he comes in pretty low in the list based solely on physical talent.

I'm not sure what player has had more success with less talent.

Why are you limiting the definition of talent solely to physical traits like arm strength, running ability, etc.?Manning's talent is that he's perhaps the most cerebral QB at the position that requires the most thinking. Manning's intelligence is his talent, and it's that talent that separates him from Culpepper, Favre, and many others. Manning's intelligence is a greater weapon than Vick's speed, Stafford's arm strength, and nearly all other QBs' defining physical traits.

I'm not limiting it I am differenating it. My point is exactly that his mental talent is his greatest strength but when its matched or nullified by say jamming his wrs and throwing off the timing of the play he does not have extraordinary physical skill to pull off a big play. When was the last time you saw a jaw droppibg physical play from him, like say a vick scramble, an Elway escape and throw, a Farve bullet? A pass a run anything where you said maybe ten guys in the world could do that, or could do something to make the play successful?

 

[LargeMouthBass]

My theory... Can a team have a bad day? I mean a really bad day?

Denver played really bad and they only lost by 6.

And most likely if ####### Hillman didn't fumble at the goal-line, Denver would still be undefeated.