Sweet Love
IBL Representative
Interesting...if Romo gets three more, he ties Brees.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm
All-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks: Peyton Manning
But he is not clutch.
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My Manning Theory (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Doubtingthomas
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Goldfinger007
Footballguy
Defense wins championships. With his quick release, Manning can light up lesser defenses. Always has. However, in the playoffs, he's typically facing the better defenses in the league. They can bring more pressure, particularly up the middle. As good as Manning is, he's a classic pocket passer. He can move around in the pocket a bit, but he has to have a pocket to throw from. If his pocket is consistently being collapsed he only has one choice and that is to get the ball out even quicker, but then that disrupts his timing and that is what Peyton's game is all about...timing and precision. If you can get people in his face, he doesn't look so unstoppable and at times can look downright bad.
Jewell
Footballguy
I think there's a difference between being clutch by racking up numerous fourth quarter comebacks in regular season games and clutch in playing exceptionally well in elimination games and games with significant meaning. The latter involves a build-up and anticipation for the big game where an over-analyzer can put too much pressure on himself and psyche himself out before the ball is ever kicked off. The former (regular season fourth quarter comebacks) don't involve that level of anticipation and possible over-analyzing because the QB is already in the flow of the game and well into his athlete mode when the pressure surfaces.Interesting...if Romo gets three more, he ties Brees.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm
All-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks: Peyton Manning
But he is not clutch.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
If Eli's play has been so clutch "throughout" his career, then why are the Giants on pace to miss the playoffs for the 4th time in the last five seasons?
Getting it done in the postseason doesn't mean you are going to get it done "every time." I already said in this thread that Peyton has has his fair share of crappy playoff games, just like every other great all-time QB, but this idea that he doesn't get it done in the postseason is bull crap. Those awesome games he had, that I posted the stats to, demonstrate quite clearly that he HAS gotten done in the postseason.I am sure you meant postseason but you named 3 games. The fact he is 9 - 11 in the postseason says something, the fact the one Super Bowl he won he was horrible that entire playoff except for the second half against New England.-22 of 26, for 377 yards, 5 TDs and 0 INTs, against the Broncos number 4 ranked defense in a 2003 wild card game.
-27 of 33, for 458 yards, 5 TDs and 1 INT, against the Broncos number 4 ranked defense in a 2004 wild card game.
-26 of 39, for 377 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs, against the Jets number 1 ranked defense in the 2009 AFCCG.
But yeah, Peyton doesn't get it done in the preseason.
It is pretty easy to cherry pick stats. Watch this
2002 Manning 14 - 31 137 yards 2ints
1999 Manning 19 - 43 227 yards
2010 Manning 18 - 26 225 yards 1 touchdown
In the 8 years Manning has went 1 and done in the playoffs he has 2075 yards 10 touchdown and 6 ints with a 82 passer raiting.
Also, he was not horrible in the entire 2006 playoffs except for the 2nd half of the NE game. He was not awful in the Super Bowl, unless you expect a QB to put up great numbers in a rain storm. Also, he was MVP of that game, and while it was certainly not one of the best MVP performances in SB history, it was anything but horrible.
Sarnoff
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
The colts defense won indy a championship while manning threw three tds and seven interceptions. He played bad in the superbowl, but rex grossman played worse. The other superbowl was put on ice by mannings pick six. Last years overtime loss to the ravens ended when he threw a pick and gave the ravens a short trip for a field goal attempt. Would the colts have won the superbowl in 2003 if their defense had played better to make up for mannings four interceptions? Or the following year when he set the (then) nfl record for touchdown passes, then led his team to just three points? Hard to blame the d for not pitching a shutout.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Brady won 3 with good defenses. Eli won 2 with great defenses. Ben won 2 with great defenses. Ravens won 2 with trent dilfer and joe flacco. Peyton won 1 with booger mcfarland plugging the middle. See anything like a trend here? Its hard to win a superbowl with a defense built around aggressiveness after getting the lead. It happens (saints), but its rare.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Think about this, Micheal Jordan is considered the greatest ever or one of because he won 6 titles and led his team during them all, if he only won 1 title I doubt we would put him as high up.
Manning is probably the best regular season quarterback in the history of the NFL, but he is average at best in the playoffs when it matters the most. So in my eyes that puts him as a top 6 or 7 quarterback all time, but he isn't even close to the greatest ever.
Manning is probably the best regular season quarterback in the history of the NFL, but he is average at best in the playoffs when it matters the most. So in my eyes that puts him as a top 6 or 7 quarterback all time, but he isn't even close to the greatest ever.
Manning is great because he is a very good QB and a very good offensive coordinator - he is not great at either individually (mostly because he has to split his time working on both).
In the course of a regular season, he can match wits with an average defensive coordinator, and/or he can perform well enough against sub-par defenses to win a lot of games and put up a lot of stats.
By the time the playoffs roll around, he is facing a good full time defensive coordinator and typically a good defense. Manning does not have the time in a week to match the effort put in by the defensive coordinator, nor the QB skills to get by against a good defense. So, he struggles against teams that put together a good defensive game plan, with good defensive personnel.
In the course of a regular season, he can match wits with an average defensive coordinator, and/or he can perform well enough against sub-par defenses to win a lot of games and put up a lot of stats.
By the time the playoffs roll around, he is facing a good full time defensive coordinator and typically a good defense. Manning does not have the time in a week to match the effort put in by the defensive coordinator, nor the QB skills to get by against a good defense. So, he struggles against teams that put together a good defensive game plan, with good defensive personnel.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Apples and oranges. One guy is way more capable of taking over a basketball game, much less a postseason, than a football player is.
Also, Peyton Manning has the 10th best postseason passer rating (higher than Tom Brady, Steve Young and Brett Favre, all of whom would also be in my personal all-time top 10). You have an interesting definition of "average."
Doubtingthomas
Footballguy
I would agree with this line of thought on the whole but what I'm saying is its not because he's a choker or goes mental. I see him get in the playoffs and talented teams and players match his preperation and he doesnt have superior physical talent to maintain his normal advantage from the regular season. Of all the qbs to get mentioned in greatest of all time discussions he seems to me to be the guy with the least raw physical talent. Eyeball test.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
No actually it isn't, basketball can be dominated by one person much the way a quarterback can dominate. They can audible any play and touch the ball on every offensive play.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
MJ had some pretty terrible playoff games. Lucky for him, one bad game didn't cost him a season. He could also affect the game on both end of the court while Manning can only look on helplessly while his defence ####s the bed. MJ got to play 95% of the game whereas Manning is out there about 50% of the time.
Very bad comparison.
Mile High
Footballguy
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Pretty foolish to say hes not clutch at all, ofcourse he is. But he also has a history of a making a few mental errors in the spotlight. 2 mins left in a championship game and down by 4 I'd take Brady or Brees over Manning, but not taking anything away from Peyton at all... hes still going down as one of the greatest. Indy was pretty much always the top team in the NFL while he was there and he "only" walked away with one ring. They lost to NE twice during BB's defensive genius years, then lost to Pit in a fluky game, but then beat his demons and the Pats to go on and win his SB. After that they lost to SD twice and I can agree that Manning's clutch factor could be questioned afterwards. 2009 back to the SB but lost, and then a home lose to the Jets. 2011 Neck injury and release. Last yr wasn't entirely Manning's fault IMO, coaching and playcalling was very questionable especially at the end of the half and game.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Fun facts: in Manning's playoff losses, his team has been outrushed by the other team:
197-78
258-99
180-52
112-98
210-46
112-58
99-44
167-64
51-99 (this, the loss to the Saints, is the only Peyton playoff loss where his team won the rushing battle)
169-93
155-125
That is an average of 155 rushing yards a game allowed! That would currently be worst in the NFL. Now imagine trying to win in the playoffs when your run defense is constantly getting shredded.
I will submit that it is difficult for a QB to win a game in general when his defense allows 155 rushing yards. Now imagine a QB's defense allowing an average of 155 rushing yards per game in 11 games! Seems to me like the biggest reason Peyton has a 9-11 playoff record is because his defense usually lets the other team run all over them, ya know, when Peyton is not on the field. Sure, he has had his fair share of playoff mistakes and bad games, but to put it all on him is pretty unfair, especially when you look at the circumstances of just about every playoff game since 2003 (he definitely did not play well his first three playoff games). It is not always as simple as looking at wins and losses, otherwise we are gonna have to call Joe Flacco a top QB based off his 9-4 playoff record.
197-78
258-99
180-52
112-98
210-46
112-58
99-44
167-64
51-99 (this, the loss to the Saints, is the only Peyton playoff loss where his team won the rushing battle)
169-93
155-125
That is an average of 155 rushing yards a game allowed! That would currently be worst in the NFL. Now imagine trying to win in the playoffs when your run defense is constantly getting shredded.
I will submit that it is difficult for a QB to win a game in general when his defense allows 155 rushing yards. Now imagine a QB's defense allowing an average of 155 rushing yards per game in 11 games! Seems to me like the biggest reason Peyton has a 9-11 playoff record is because his defense usually lets the other team run all over them, ya know, when Peyton is not on the field. Sure, he has had his fair share of playoff mistakes and bad games, but to put it all on him is pretty unfair, especially when you look at the circumstances of just about every playoff game since 2003 (he definitely did not play well his first three playoff games). It is not always as simple as looking at wins and losses, otherwise we are gonna have to call Joe Flacco a top QB based off his 9-4 playoff record.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
Those are just stats, and very meaningless ones without information to back them up. Think about this winning teams usually have more rush yards. Why? Because they are winning and running the clock out. The Patriots beat Manning 20 - 3 one year in the playoffs, how many of those rush yards were in the 4th quarter icing a game. How about the 41 - 0 playoff game against the Jets?
Some of those totals are high and I imagine they were during blow outs, some of them are very low and yet you want to claim his defense didn't step up. Sorry but the 112, 112, 99, and 51 seem like decent days for a defense. Another thing to consider is how many attempts. 167 looks like a bad number but it really isn't if 75 of the yards came in the fourth quarter of a blow out, just like all the passing yards the Broncos have allowed right now because guys like Foles, Pryor, and Flacco racked up garbage yards in the 4th quarter of games that were out of hand.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
197 to the Titans was in a 3-point loss.
258 to the Dolphins was in an OT loss (when Peyton drove the Colts into range for a FG, which Vanderjagt missed)
155 of the Patriots 210 in the 20-3 loss were gotten when it was still a one-possession game. In other words, most of the Patriots rushing yards came when it was still a game. Only when it became 20-3 did it become what anyone would call a blowout, and the Patriots ran for 13 yards the rest of the game after that. So, to answer your question, the Patriots ran for 13 of their 210 when they were icing the clock.
167 to the Chargers in an OT loss (when the Chargers scored a TD on the first possession of OT, meaning Peyton never got the ball in OT).
169 to the Jets in a 1-point loss (when bad coaching by Caldwell regarding timeouts allowed the Jets to get into FG range after a Peyton drive gave Indy the lead with 57 seconds left).
155 to the Ravens in an OT loss.
In other words, of the games where his rush D allowed 150+, the loss to the Jets was the only one where you can say the tons of rushing yards were gained once it became a blowout.
Nice try, though.
258 to the Dolphins was in an OT loss (when Peyton drove the Colts into range for a FG, which Vanderjagt missed)
155 of the Patriots 210 in the 20-3 loss were gotten when it was still a one-possession game. In other words, most of the Patriots rushing yards came when it was still a game. Only when it became 20-3 did it become what anyone would call a blowout, and the Patriots ran for 13 yards the rest of the game after that. So, to answer your question, the Patriots ran for 13 of their 210 when they were icing the clock.
167 to the Chargers in an OT loss (when the Chargers scored a TD on the first possession of OT, meaning Peyton never got the ball in OT).
169 to the Jets in a 1-point loss (when bad coaching by Caldwell regarding timeouts allowed the Jets to get into FG range after a Peyton drive gave Indy the lead with 57 seconds left).
155 to the Ravens in an OT loss.
In other words, of the games where his rush D allowed 150+, the loss to the Jets was the only one where you can say the tons of rushing yards were gained once it became a blowout.
Nice try, though.
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Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Oh, and another reason it is a terrible comparison? The Bulls had a top 7 defence in each of Jordan's 6 titles. In the 6 seasons before Jordan won a title (you know, when everyone was saying he wasn't clutch and couldn't win), he had a top 10 defence once; 3rd in 87/88. That year he had the miss fortune of running into a Pistons team (2nd best defence that year ) that had 5 HOF'ers.msudaisy26 said:
How many times has Peyton had a top 7 defence to support him?
Tanner9919
Footballguy
I havent done mushrooms in a very long time, but this post brought me back! the only thing missing now is Pink Floyd's Ummagumma 'several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave a grooving with a pict' playing in the background..
ah, the good 'ole days...
Dizzy
Footballguy
Bill Polian was on NFL Live today discussing favorites to win the Super Bowl... all present listed their top-4 and got to defend their picks. So Polian gets up there and says there are three keys (in his eyes) to putting a Super Bowl team together; 1) dominant running game, 2) at least two (2) elite pass rushers, and 3) a defense that plays well on the road.
No mention of a franchise QB being part of the SB formula... interesting given that his teams had Jim Kelly and Peyton Manning for a big chunk of his career.
His SB picks were SEA vs KCC.
No mention of a franchise QB being part of the SB formula... interesting given that his teams had Jim Kelly and Peyton Manning for a big chunk of his career.
His SB picks were SEA vs KCC.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Haven't heard the Lizard People stories since the Bush/Cheney/Saud regime.
They're the ones that live inside the hollow core of the moon, right?
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Nice try what I said I had no idea you still didn't answer the question, how many rush yards were in the OT of those two loses? Was that 155 the double OT game last year? That also only covers 6 of the 11 loses. Not to mention the fact that they scored 3 points against the Patriots. What were the scores of the other games? If I remember correctly the Jets game was 17 - 16. Ya the defense really sucked there. Keep making excuses and not giving all the facts.
Fact he had some bad defenses and it wouldn't have mattered much who the quarterback was.
Fact his defense dragged him to his 1 title, minus 1 half against the Patriots
Fact he ended all chances of winning his second title with a pick 6
Fact most of his stats you quoted have come in blow out wins, but when the pressure is on he seems to not get it done, for whatever reason.
Lastly stats don't tell the whole story, you just give out some rushing numbers but then fail to tell us the score of the game and claim his defense played poorly.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I just did that, and now you are trying to backtrack and change the subject again, when you were the one who took offense to my assertion that most of Peyton's playoff losses were in large part thanks to bad run defense. You talked like that all of those games where Peyton's run D got torched were all mostly blowouts, and I just gave you the facts that only 1 of the 6 were, and now you are moving the goal posts because I proved you wrong when you were assuming (and naturally your assumption was one that made Peyton look as bad as possible). As for the 4 losses where the rush D allowed less than 150, those losses were by 10, 3, 4 and 14...in other words, none of them were blowout losses (the 14-point loss to the Saints was not a blowout, unless you think a late pick six making it a double digit loss constitutes a blowout).
Plus, you keep ignoring comments that obliterate your weak points, like Clavin's most recent posts, as well as me asking you if a QB who was the MVP in a rain storm really played horrible.
As for blowout wins, oh, so now Peyton doesn't get props for being so good that he led his team to impressive wins? Haha, okay. Also, his annihilation of the Jets number 1 D in the 2009 playoffs was not a blowout. You keep talking about context, but that 30-17 win was not a blowout. The Colts actually trailed 17-6 at one point, before taking over in the 2nd half and then pulling away in the 4th. Not a blowout to anyone who actually watched that game. Which you clearly didn't.
As for the pick six in the Super Bowl, I have long maintained that that pick was more on Reggie Wayne, who simply gave up on the play when the defender beat him to the spot, but that doesn't fit the "Peyton is a choker" narrative drum that many of you love to beat, so it naturally never gets brought up, just like Peyton's first pick in the Ravens loss last year was totally on the WR for letting a well-thrown ball bounce off of his hands and up into the air where it was picked off and ran back. On the flip side, the INT in OT was all Peyton's fault, but let's remember that Peyton played great in most of that game and had them in position to win, if not for Rahim Moore's all-time blunder.
Plus, you keep ignoring comments that obliterate your weak points, like Clavin's most recent posts, as well as me asking you if a QB who was the MVP in a rain storm really played horrible.
As for blowout wins, oh, so now Peyton doesn't get props for being so good that he led his team to impressive wins? Haha, okay. Also, his annihilation of the Jets number 1 D in the 2009 playoffs was not a blowout. You keep talking about context, but that 30-17 win was not a blowout. The Colts actually trailed 17-6 at one point, before taking over in the 2nd half and then pulling away in the 4th. Not a blowout to anyone who actually watched that game. Which you clearly didn't.
As for the pick six in the Super Bowl, I have long maintained that that pick was more on Reggie Wayne, who simply gave up on the play when the defender beat him to the spot, but that doesn't fit the "Peyton is a choker" narrative drum that many of you love to beat, so it naturally never gets brought up, just like Peyton's first pick in the Ravens loss last year was totally on the WR for letting a well-thrown ball bounce off of his hands and up into the air where it was picked off and ran back. On the flip side, the INT in OT was all Peyton's fault, but let's remember that Peyton played great in most of that game and had them in position to win, if not for Rahim Moore's all-time blunder.
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So when Manning won a SB, he deserved no credit because it was all due the Colts D, but when the Broncos lost to the Ravens after Rahim Moore inexplicably let Jacoby Jones get past him in the final minute, that's not the defense's fault? Talk about heads-I-win, tails-you-lose!bostonfred said:
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
You must not remember that game well, not only did his special teams give him 2 touchdowns but he also threw a pick 6 and had several chances to win it overtime before he gave the Ravens the game.
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Judge Smails
Footballguy
horrible thread
Rolling_akg
Footballguy
Biggest problem was colts run d. Lose time of possession and give up pts
Sarnoff
Footballguy
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Quick...name all the qbs who won multiple superbowls after they got the payday north of 18mil a year.
Thread hasnt addressed the question of whether elite qbs are paid too much to field a SBB winning defense. I have my doubts.
Thread hasnt addressed the question of whether elite qbs are paid too much to field a SBB winning defense. I have my doubts.
Rove!
Footballguy
agreed
if not for some luck, the last SB winning Giants team would not have even made the playoffs
moleculo
Footballguy
in playoff games decided by a kicker, Peyton Manning is 0-5. Each and every time Manning put his team in position to win the game with a FG in the final minutes or OT, his kicker has missed. conversely, each and every time Manning's opponent put themselves in position to win with a FG in the final minutes or OT, they convert. Each and every time. Mannings composite passer rating in these games: 91.1.
The guy cited previously as being clutch, Manning's counterpoint in New England, is 6-0 in similar situations. In these 6 wins, he had a passer rating of 73.8.
To put a little more perspective: If Brady had equal luck with playoff kicking game as Manning, he would have a 9-9 record with one SB win (2004), one SB loss (2007), and no other championship game appearances.
The difference in playoff game perception between Manning and Brady was written by Mike Vanderjagt, Nate Kaeding, Adam Vinateri, Nick Folk, Stephen Gotskowski, Justin Tucker, and Billy Cundiff.
The guy cited previously as being clutch, Manning's counterpoint in New England, is 6-0 in similar situations. In these 6 wins, he had a passer rating of 73.8.
To put a little more perspective: If Brady had equal luck with playoff kicking game as Manning, he would have a 9-9 record with one SB win (2004), one SB loss (2007), and no other championship game appearances.
The difference in playoff game perception between Manning and Brady was written by Mike Vanderjagt, Nate Kaeding, Adam Vinateri, Nick Folk, Stephen Gotskowski, Justin Tucker, and Billy Cundiff.
Randomly113
Footballguy
Yep, Gruden said he will check to a run everytime a team goes two high on them... the Colts figured that one out pretty quickly.
that what always happens when someone is trying to argue their point...
Fact: These types of arguments are really stupid, and nothing ever gets accomplished. We can compare his career to the greats after it is over with.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Rove!
Footballguy
Not a kicker but can we please add punter Mike Scifres to this list? That SD-Indy 2009 playoff game was one of the more ridiculous things I've ever seen
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/scifres-makes-it-a-proud-day-for-punters-and-kickers-everywhere/
msudaisy26
Footballguy
While that looks great and makes Manning look better and Brady look worse. What happened in the game to get them to that point? How long were the field goals? During the tuck rule game the game winning field was 23 yards. We can also play this what if game all you want, but what happened did happen and that is why Peyton is viewed as he is.
moleculo
Footballguy
lots of things. Bottom line is that the games were close down to the final minutes. Look at Bal v Denver game last year. A Manning hater will cite the OT pick to set up the FG on OT, a Manning supporter will point to the Broncos D blowing a 7 point lead with 0:41 and 70 yards to go, and a QB rating over 90 prior to OT.msudaisy26 said:
Tuck rule game actually required a 45 yard FG in the snow to tie the game. It was a very impressive kick. A summary of all the games I'm counting is below:msudaisy26 said:
Manning
1. 12/30/2000: Manning led the Colts to a 7 point lead with 5:01 remaining. Jay Fiedler led the Dolphins on a 70 yard TD drive to force OT, scoring a TD with 0:40 remaining. In OT, Mike Vanderjagt missed a 49 yard FG. On the ensuing possession, the dolphins scored the winning TD on a 9 play, 61 yard drive.
2. 1/15/2006: Colts were down by 11 late in the 4th quarter. Manning led the colts on a 80 yard drive to bring colts to within 3 with 4:30 to play. Next possession, the colts were pinned deep, and failed to convert a first down. On the next play, Bettis fumbled the ball, recovered by Harper, who returned the ball to the 42, giving Manning the ball with decent field position and 1:01 on the clock. He drove the team to the PIT 28, where Vanderjagt missed the tying FG with 0:21 remaining.
3. 1/3/2009: Colts had a 17-4 lead late in the 4th quarter. With 0:33 remaining, Nate Kaeding hit a 26 yard FG to tie the game. In the first possession of OT, the Chargers capped off a 65 yard drive with a 22 yard TD run by Darren Sproles.
4. 1/8/2011: Colts were down 14-13 late in the 4th, when Vinateri (Colts K) hit a 50 yard FG to put the Colts up by 2 with 0:57 remaining. Unfortunately, this was too much time for Mark Sanchez who was able to advance the ball to the Colts 14, where Nick Folk hit a 32 yarder to win the game.
5. 1/12/2013: Broncos held a 7 point lead late in the 4th, when Flacco miraculously hit Jacoby Jones with a 70 yard TD pass with 0:31 remaining to tie the game. In OT, Manning did throw the critical int. However, that doesn't change the fact that Tucker hit a 47 yard FG to win the game.
Brady:
1. 1/19/2002: the infamous Tuck game. After the tuck, Brady led the team to the 28 where Vinateri hit a 45 yard FG to force OT. In OT, Brady led the Patriots on a masterful 15 play, 59 yard drive leading to a 23 yard FG to win the game.
2. 2/3/2002: superbowl vs StL: with the game tied and 1:21 on the clock, Brady led the Patriots on a 9 play, 53 yard drive for Vinateri to win the game on a 48 yard FG.
3. 1/10/2004: game was tied late in the 4th. With 4:11 remaining, Vinateri hit a 46 yard FG to win the game.
4. 2/1/2004: SB vs Carolina: the game was tied with 1:13 remaining. Aided by an out-of-bounds kickoff, Brady drove the team 37 yards to set Vinateri up for a 41 yard FG with 0:09 remaining.
5. 1/14/2007: With the game tied, Gostkowski hit a 31 yard FG to take the lead and 1:14 remaining. Rivers was able to drive the Chargers to the 36 with enough time for one kick, but Kaeding missed the 54 yarder.
6. 1/22/2012: Down by 3 with 1:44 remaining, Joe Flacco drove the Ravens to the Patriots 14 to attempt the tying FG. Billy Cundiff missed the 32 yard FG, preserving the Patriots victory.
What happened did happen, but Manning is viewed incorrectly, IMO. These guys' reputations were solidified by 2005 or so, when Manning became the perpetual playoff loser and Brady became the golden boy. Viewed in it's entirety, these guys playoff records are more similar than many people wish to acknowledge.msudaisy26 said:
The General
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Good info thanks for that.
I am a Brady over Manning person, but I don't think he is a bad quarterback. I think Manning is a great quarterback. I just hate the Manning lovers that every time they win a game it is all Manning and he makes his receivers, O-line and everything else. When they lose it is all because of the defense or the kicker.
Last year it was all because of the defense giving up that bomb to Jones, but everyone forgets that his defense gave him 7 points, and his special teams gave him 14 more.
Or the 20 - 3 game against the Patriots in 03 or 04, the defense gave up 200 yards rushing, but Manning led the offense to 3 points. on 10 drives with a record setting offense.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
The defense didn't give them 7 in the playoff loss to the Ravens last year. You have your facts wrong...again.
The 20-3 loss to the Patriots was not good, as Peyton threw for only 238 yards and a pick in horrible weather, but Brady only threw for 144 yards in that game. The Patriots won that game because they had the superior rushing game, outrushing Indy 210-46, which is almost always gonna be the difference in a game in bad weather. It's easy to spin it as "Peyton only put 3 points in the season where he set the record for most TD passes," but can we then criticize Brady for the same for only putting up 14 in the Super Bowl against the Giants, in much better conditions and on a neutral field instead of on the road, after HE set the record?
The 20-3 loss to the Patriots was not good, as Peyton threw for only 238 yards and a pick in horrible weather, but Brady only threw for 144 yards in that game. The Patriots won that game because they had the superior rushing game, outrushing Indy 210-46, which is almost always gonna be the difference in a game in bad weather. It's easy to spin it as "Peyton only put 3 points in the season where he set the record for most TD passes," but can we then criticize Brady for the same for only putting up 14 in the Super Bowl against the Giants, in much better conditions and on a neutral field instead of on the road, after HE set the record?
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moleculo
Footballguy
no, I hear ya. The other side of the coin is equally annoying, in that every time they lose, it's all on Manning. Any Manning discussion, pretty much anywhere on the internet, eventually devolves to playoff struggles. It's funny you mentioned 2003 and 2004. As a Bronco fan, my lasting memory of the playoffs those years was the Colts hanging 41 and 49 on my team, Manning throwing for 377-5 and then 458-4. Of course, those games tend to get washed-over.
As far as last year, I do put some blame on Manning. He never should have thrown that pass. it was a mistake that cost him the game, no doubt. I heap more blame on Raheem not playing deep enough, Fox for going to conservative, no running game due to McGahgee/Moreno being hurt, Hillman being too small, and Ball/Hester sucking, Champ Bailey for getting burnt twice, Del Rio for putting champ in single coverage w/ no help against a very fast WR, Miller/Dumervil for not getting any pressure on Flacco, and most importantly, the refs for calling one of the worst games of the season. Lots of blame to go around, it's not all on Manning.
