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NFL MVP (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jurb26
- Start date
was he? I don't regularly check those awardsBart Scott!! Defensive player of the month for September!!
jurb26
Footballguy
Time to tier these guys:
Tier 1:
Grossman
Manning
McNabb
McNair
I know that McNair will surprise a few in tier 1 because of his stats thus far. However, you can not place a stat value on the leadership skills and attitude that McNair has brought to Balt. Grossman and Manning are both on fire and 4-0. McNabb is on fire but lost one game.
Tier 2:
Portis
S. Smith
Pretty simple here. Look at how both Wash and Car started 0-2 and totally inept on O w/o these 2 guys. Look at the differenece on O and 2-0 record since they have comeback!
Tier 3:
Vick
Brees
R. Johnson
Westy
LT
Vick and Brees have been very good even though Vick's passing numbers are down, as normal. Both 1 loss teams however. R. Johnson is the best player in Cincy yet gets the least attention and respect. Westy has been nothing short of spectacular when playing. LT is just a LT.
Tier 4:
Palmer
Hassy
J. Walker
Merriman
Rhodes
Palmer and Hassy have made too many mistakes to be in the upper tiers IMO, but both still are leading very good teams to impressive records. Walker could be the spark plug Den needs on O. Merriman has been stunning this year. For those of you who have not gotten the pleasure of seeing Rhodes play in NYJ, you are missing out.
Anyone I missed? I'm sure there is.
Tier 1:
Grossman
Manning
McNabb
McNair
I know that McNair will surprise a few in tier 1 because of his stats thus far. However, you can not place a stat value on the leadership skills and attitude that McNair has brought to Balt. Grossman and Manning are both on fire and 4-0. McNabb is on fire but lost one game.
Tier 2:
Portis
S. Smith
Pretty simple here. Look at how both Wash and Car started 0-2 and totally inept on O w/o these 2 guys. Look at the differenece on O and 2-0 record since they have comeback!
Tier 3:
Vick
Brees
R. Johnson
Westy
LT
Vick and Brees have been very good even though Vick's passing numbers are down, as normal. Both 1 loss teams however. R. Johnson is the best player in Cincy yet gets the least attention and respect. Westy has been nothing short of spectacular when playing. LT is just a LT.
Tier 4:
Palmer
Hassy
J. Walker
Merriman
Rhodes
Palmer and Hassy have made too many mistakes to be in the upper tiers IMO, but both still are leading very good teams to impressive records. Walker could be the spark plug Den needs on O. Merriman has been stunning this year. For those of you who have not gotten the pleasure of seeing Rhodes play in NYJ, you are missing out.
Anyone I missed? I'm sure there is.
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Here's why, as of today, its gotta be Rex:
We have the advantage of knowing exactly what this offense looks like under any number of other QBs, and how far the great Bears D can go with that. Average margin of victory in last years wins: 11.1 points. This year so far: 21.8. The only thing that has materially changed is Rexy at the helm.
I guess the question is, who would you put your money on to go farther- the Colts without Manning or the Bears without Grossman? I think its a debateable point for sure, but without a decent QB this Bears team is just an ok to above average team. The Colts are still a step above that with those receivers and that defense. Just my opinion.
We have the advantage of knowing exactly what this offense looks like under any number of other QBs, and how far the great Bears D can go with that. Average margin of victory in last years wins: 11.1 points. This year so far: 21.8. The only thing that has materially changed is Rexy at the helm.
I guess the question is, who would you put your money on to go farther- the Colts without Manning or the Bears without Grossman? I think its a debateable point for sure, but without a decent QB this Bears team is just an ok to above average team. The Colts are still a step above that with those receivers and that defense. Just my opinion.
bryhamm
Footballguy
Jurb,
You deserve better than what you are receiving. At the time, your original list was fine. I was the first to question the late addition of Big Ben, but I understood that you wrote an opinion piece. I started a similar fire on the other board by trying to identify the most over rated players for each sport. If Big Ben wasn't a homer pick I am suprised.
From my experience, I would suggest that when you start an opinion thread don't personalize differing views. I am a Seahawks fan, but the Super Bowl results is not why I would wonder about your selection.
You deserve better than what you are receiving. At the time, your original list was fine. I was the first to question the late addition of Big Ben, but I understood that you wrote an opinion piece. I started a similar fire on the other board by trying to identify the most over rated players for each sport. If Big Ben wasn't a homer pick I am suprised.
From my experience, I would suggest that when you start an opinion thread don't personalize differing views. I am a Seahawks fan, but the Super Bowl results is not why I would wonder about your selection.
Big Ben.
Want me to write another dissertation on Champ Bailey?Seriously, he's had 7 passes thrown in his direction through 3 games. He's shutting down his half of the field as well as Prime Time ever did, and unlike Prime Time he's doing it in the era of stacked rules.
Its seems to be pretty hard to argue against Peyton Manning here.
The Colts are 4-0. The running game looks a little shaky because they are averaging 3.54 yards per carry as a team. The defense has been pretty lousy so far.
If you look at the numbers, the 06 Colts to this point have been Peyton's arm and then a bunch of question marks.
But again, they are 4-0.
So it looks like Peyton Manning by a mile here.
The Colts are 4-0. The running game looks a little shaky because they are averaging 3.54 yards per carry as a team. The defense has been pretty lousy so far.
If you look at the numbers, the 06 Colts to this point have been Peyton's arm and then a bunch of question marks.
But again, they are 4-0.
So it looks like Peyton Manning by a mile here.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Not sure why Rex Grossman would be considered as MVP. The defense has let up 0, 7, 16, and 6 pts. This team would win regardless of who the QB is, Kyle Orton went 9-4 last year with this offense. The MVP of Chicago is the defense not Rex Grossman.
Manning and McNabb are the probably the front-runners for MVP at the QB position. Without McNabb last year the Eagles were 2-5. Without Manning, the Colts would be a mediocre team as well.
Manning and McNabb are the probably the front-runners for MVP at the QB position. Without McNabb last year the Eagles were 2-5. Without Manning, the Colts would be a mediocre team as well.
PsychoMan
Footballguy
steve smith means at least as much to the panthers
Agreed but he has only played in 2 of his teams 4 games wher as Mcnair has played in all 4 and led winng drives at the end of the game in 2. Everyone knows all the Ravens ever needed was a QB now if they go on to make the postseason it would seem that jus his mere presence on the team may have pushed them over the top and isn't that the definition of Most Valuable Player
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
I don't think he is, but to dismiss the fact that he should be considered because of the defense is a little short sighted.Grossman QBing is allowing the Bears to score points, putting his team ahead early in games. That allows the D to open up and play whatever style they want.
And when he's not scoring points, he is at least sustaining drives. This allows the defense to stay off of the field and be fresh as the game progresses. Sustaining drives also allows the Bears to win the battle of field position which also helps out the D.
Last year was a string of 3 and outs resulting in short fields for the opposition. The D helped mask a bunch of that, but by the time the playoffs roled around, they were spent. That won't be the case this year. I expect the Bears to march deep into the playoffs this year if Grossman stays healthy and keeps producing at this level.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
So you believe that if there is one player on the Bears team that they can't afford to lose it would be Rex Grossman? I know in Philly it's McNabb. In Indy it's Manning. In San Diego it's LT. In Chicago it's...
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
I'm not sure its fair to use that as criteriaFirst, I said I don't think he is the MVP, but he does warrant consideration due to the reasons I mentioned.To me, McNabb is the MVP right now with Peyton a close 2nd.Second, the Bears probably have a better backup situation in Griese than the other 2 QBs you mentioned. So to say the Bears can lose Rex, thus he can't be considered the MVP is silly. Is it his fault the Bears went out and got a servicable backup? I don't think so. And even though LT2 is agruably the best player in the league, he doesn't even belong in the team picture right now if you are talking about who's team can do without them. Turner looks more than capable of carrying the load.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Their backup is irrelevant. The Bears went 10-4 with Kyle Orton and without Grossman last year. Does Grossman make the Bears better. Absolutely. Is he the MVP? No chance. He's so far behind McNabb and Manning that he shouldn't even be considered.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
For those pimping Steve Smith, a WR has never been the official league MVP (IIRC, some other media outlets may have picked Jerry Rice one time but that was not the official league MVP). I doubt Smith would win unless he has a year for the ages. "Most valuable" does not always enter into the voting.
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Limp Ditka
Footballguy
ANY undefeated QB should be considered.And yes, that includes Steve McNair.
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Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Also last year means nothing. We are talking about this year.
Look here and see how many times Rex is mentioned. And while they are fantasy numbers, I doubt that very many MVPs didn't end up in the top 5-10 of any scoring system
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=276417
Look here and see how many times Rex is mentioned. And while they are fantasy numbers, I doubt that very many MVPs didn't end up in the top 5-10 of any scoring system
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=276417
If the Bears remain on their current track and his level of play continues, Harris will win defensive player of the year honors and get a sniff of league MVP, which is stating he will get a few votes. At this point he is the fulcrum that defensive scheme is built around and he'll get some props this year.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Last year does mean something because it gives you a glimpse at what the team would look like without Grossman. They were a good team without him. He makes them better...he doesn't make them.
Hey, maybe if McNair hadn't sucked so much in the beginning of those games, he wouldn't have needed the game-winning drive at the end?The guy is averaging 5.7 yards per attempt. To put that into perspective, Alex Smith of the 49ers is averaging 6.8. McNair is having a horrible season, but because he put together two good drives he means more to his team than any other player in history? I'm not buying it.hotboyz said:
jurb26
Footballguy
I could care less about what I am receiving to be honest. It is an internet message board and they are by nature full of opinions. I simply ask that people read the opinions before making judements. That clearly did not happen.
jurb26
Footballguy
Last years Chi team could run the ball, this years can not. That makes a huge difference. Grossman is the key in Chi right now. He has put them up early in 3 of 4 games with his passing and thrown a game winning TD pass in the other. The running game has been nonexhistent. I can't see any sensable arguement to not having him in the first tier. His team is 4-0, his stats are fantastic (with a QB rating HIGHER than Manning) and he has made several key plays to lead to those wins.Snotbubbles said:
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jurb26
Footballguy
Go right ahead. I would love to hear it to be honest. I'd say that Champ is playing very well this year too, but MVPs need to make plays. It's simply too hard to do that when other teams don't give you an opportunity to. This is also why QBs win so often, though I'm sure you know that. It's not Champs fault, but those are the breaks. One could argue that several OL or CBs were deserving of the award in years past. Reality is, it just isn't likely to happen. Their football value is never fully understood. Either way, I'm a huge fan of CBs getting the respect they deserve in a NFL that is designed to make them poor whipping boys for high scoring entertianment and crowd pleasure.
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I completely agree!
jurb26
Footballguy
See, Steeler fans and Seahawk fans can get along.
I don't like the Steelers, but some of the best posters we have are Pittsburgh fans.See, Steeler fans and Seahawk fans can get along.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
1 Donovan McNabb PHI 1248yds 143att 85comp 9td 1 INT 60 long 106.0rating
2 Peyton Manning IND 1112 140 86 6 1 41 97.7
3 Jon Kitna DET 1081 150 98 4 3 42
87.1
4 Drew Brees NO 1063 137 90 4 2 86
92.8
5 Rex Grossman CHI 1061 125 78 8 3 49 100.8
If grossman isn't considered by those numbers than that is rediculous. McNabb has Westbrook, stallworth, reggie brown. Manning Harrison, Wayne. Grossman has ....not as good of weapons as them
2 Peyton Manning IND 1112 140 86 6 1 41 97.7
3 Jon Kitna DET 1081 150 98 4 3 42
87.1
4 Drew Brees NO 1063 137 90 4 2 86
92.8
5 Rex Grossman CHI 1061 125 78 8 3 49 100.8
If grossman isn't considered by those numbers than that is rediculous. McNabb has Westbrook, stallworth, reggie brown. Manning Harrison, Wayne. Grossman has ....not as good of weapons as them
jurb26
Footballguy
No doubt. I get the feeling that people are just waiting for the slipper to come off with Grossman and thats why they are reluctant to give him the proper due for the fantastic start he has had. As they say, the proof is in the pudding and Grossman deserves to be there. That very well could change, but why don't we wait and see if that happens rather than expecting it to happen.
The Bears were 11-5 last year with one of the worst stating QB's in the history of the NFL. Without Manning the Colts don't even think about making the playoffs. Grossmen is a long shot with the stats Manning and McNabb are putting up.
jurb26
Footballguy
Didn't you make this same arguement earlier in the thread yet avoid addressing any of the counters to it?
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Grossman is a long shot. Where in my post did I say anything contradicting that? All I am saying that he should be considered.Now since you didn't comprehend that from what I typed before, I shouldn't be shocked that you are making the same point I am by considering him a long shot
jurb26
Footballguy
All things = there is no doubt that name recognition will be a factor, sad as that is. I agree with Limp Ditka. No matter who you think should win it, there is no doubt that Grossman should be in the discusion.
Well, the short and sweet arguement is as follows:Claim #1- Cornerback is the most important position in the NFL. That's not what *I* think, that's what the NFL GMs think. There isn't a single position in the league where the studs are paid more money than stud CBs, which means that the GMs have spoken. They have voted with their wallets, and they say that stud CBs are the most valuable players in the entire NFL (as evidenced by the fact that they're willing to devote a larger portion of their cap to a single CB than to any other position in the league).Claim #2- INTs and tackles and such are nice, but a Cornerback's primary job is to prevent the guy he's covering from getting the ball. That's it, plain and simple. Nobody in the league has prevented the guy he was covering from getting the ball more than Champ Bailey has.Short and sweet conclusion: If a guy is having the single best season at the single most important position, he should get MVP consideration, plain and simple.If you want a more detailed arguement about how ridiculous Champ Bailey has been during his 3-game span here... Champ Bailey has gone up against some of the best players in the league. He's faced Torry Holt, Tony Gonzalez, Isaac Bruce, Ben Watson, Tom Brady, Marc Bulger, etc. In those games, he has been challenged, by my count, SEVEN TIMES. The longest completion against him was for 8 yards. If he keeps up that pace, he will have 37 balls thrown in his direction over the entire season. THIRTY SEVEN. Deion Sanders in his PRIME never shut down his side of the field so effectively, and Deion Sanders didn't have to deal with the new rule emphasis. If that was the end of it, I would have to argue that this was probably the greatest season any CB has ever had in the history of the NFL... but that's not all. Champ Bailey has also been an absolute monster in run support (you could make an open-field tackling training video out of his take-downs on Steven Jackson and Larry Johnson, two of the hardest backs in the league to tackle). And not only has he been facing so few passes, he's also been shutting down the passes he HAS faced, not giving up more than 8 yards so far. Personally, I feel that this pace is absolutely, positively unsustainable... but if he did manage to sustain this pace, it might just be the greatest season any player at any position has ever had. Ever. He probably wouldn't have many INTs, but that's because he only would have been challenged *THIRTY SEVEN* times.I could also argue that MVPs alter gameplans- both yours, and your opponents. Bailey has very clearly done that. Denver has played most of the season with 8 in the box because they know they can leave Champ in 1-on-1 with no help and he'll do just fine. His presence completely changes Denver's gameplan. It's also very clear that his presence changes the opposition's gameplan. Tom Brady didn't even bother to look in Champ Bailey's direction. It's abundantly clear that New England's plan was to throw to whoever Bailey wasn't covering. I'd even go so far as to say that Brady was playing scared, possibly spooked from the INT in the playoffs last year. Marc Bulger was extremely skittish, too- the only passes he threw to Holt when Bailey was in coverage were a pair of 6-yard outs short of the sticks. He had one of the best WRs in the entire NFL and he didn't even challenge Bailey. Either way, you'd be hard-pressed to find a player who altered the other team's game-plan as thoroughly as Bailey has through three weeks.Now, I expect Bailey to come back to earth over the rest of the season. There's pretty much no way in hell that he can keep this up, or that teams will remain so afraid to even test his side of the field for the rest of the year. I mean, it's hard to tell if he's even playing that well, because other teams simply will not throw in his direction. Eventually, someone will be stupid enough to challenge him. I just think, as well as he's played, if the MVP trophy was awarded tomorrow, Bailey would have to be at the top of the list.Champ Bailey is having one of those seasons that proves that CBs are at their absolute best when they're completely invisible.
Jedimaster21
Footballguy
McNabb is the MVP.
purestrength
Footballguy
Right now, it's between P.Manning, Grossman and McNabb (in that order), but obviously a lot can happen between now and January.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
The only reason I am considering him is because Chicago homers like you bring him up.
Last years Chi team had to run the ball, they had no passing game. The Bears running game is virtually the same this year as last. Last year the Bears were 31st in offense and they were still 11-5. Grossmen turns a team that were contenders last year into the elite team in the NFC. But so would any decent QB. Of course Grossmen is much better than decent. Grossmen may very well be a top 5 QB in the NFL, but he is not the MVP. Period.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
jurb's a real Bear homer.Pay attention to the other posts in the thread. Its not just Bear fans saying it.Snotbubbles said:
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
jurb also said Brian Westbrook would have a bad year because TO was gone. Something about no running room?Just cause he says it don't make it so.
