***Official 2012 Hot Stove Thread (1 Viewer)

[Limp Ditka]

Giants key offseason issue #2Find another mediocre CF to replace Aaron Rowand.

The Kansas City Royals have traded outfielder Melky Cabrera to the San Francisco Giants for left-hander Jonathan Sanchez and another minor league pitcher.Sanchez was the Giants' best pitcher during the latter part of 2010, when they beat the Texas Rangers to win the World Series. But he was just 4-7 with a 4.26 ERA this season before missing the final month with a left ankle sprain.Cabrera hit a career-best .305 with 44 doubles, 18 homers and 87 RBIs in his first season with the Royals. By dealing him to San Francisco, Kansas City opens up a spot in its outfielder for hotshot prospect Lorenzo Cain, who hit .312 at Triple-A Omaha this season. The Royals also get left-hander Ryan Verdugo in the deal. He was 8-6 with a 4.35 ERA for Double-A Richmond this year.

Sabean hasn't quite grasped the whole "buy low, sell high" aspect of trading but then again, he's only been GM for 15 years.

Seems like the guy has been around forever, but Melky's still only 27 and just entering his prime years. There's a chance he maintains that 2011 production for the foreseeable future. And Sanchez, he's actually a year older. Add to that, the Giants should actually end up saving a little bit of money here. According to MLBTrade rumors, Melky's arbitration projects to about $4.4M, Sanchez, $5.5M.Giants are trading from organizational depth here. It's not like they'll be hurting for a starting 5 after this. I like the deal.

 

[Eephus]

Giants key offseason issue #2Find another mediocre CF to replace Aaron Rowand.

The Kansas City Royals have traded outfielder Melky Cabrera to the San Francisco Giants for left-hander Jonathan Sanchez and another minor league pitcher.Sanchez was the Giants' best pitcher during the latter part of 2010, when they beat the Texas Rangers to win the World Series. But he was just 4-7 with a 4.26 ERA this season before missing the final month with a left ankle sprain.Cabrera hit a career-best .305 with 44 doubles, 18 homers and 87 RBIs in his first season with the Royals. By dealing him to San Francisco, Kansas City opens up a spot in its outfielder for hotshot prospect Lorenzo Cain, who hit .312 at Triple-A Omaha this season. The Royals also get left-hander Ryan Verdugo in the deal. He was 8-6 with a 4.35 ERA for Double-A Richmond this year.

Sabean hasn't quite grasped the whole "buy low, sell high" aspect of trading but then again, he's only been GM for 15 years.

Seems like the guy has been around forever, but Melky's still only 27 and just entering his prime years. There's a chance he maintains that 2011 production for the foreseeable future. And Sanchez, he's actually a year older. Add to that, the Giants should actually end up saving a little bit of money here. According to MLBTrade rumors, Melky's arbitration projects to about $4.4M, Sanchez, $5.5M.Giants are trading from organizational depth here. It's not like they'll be hurting for a starting 5 after this. I like the deal.

SP#5: Zito? Surkamp? Some other replacement level arm? It's not a terrible trade but I think Melky is a big regression candidate. His BABIP was way above his career mark although not ridiculously high. He probably won't hit 18 HRs again in AT&T park. He's really not much of a CF but hopefully he's just holding the position until Gary Brown arrives.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Giants key offseason issue #2Find another mediocre CF to replace Aaron Rowand.

The Kansas City Royals have traded outfielder Melky Cabrera to the San Francisco Giants for left-hander Jonathan Sanchez and another minor league pitcher.Sanchez was the Giants' best pitcher during the latter part of 2010, when they beat the Texas Rangers to win the World Series. But he was just 4-7 with a 4.26 ERA this season before missing the final month with a left ankle sprain.Cabrera hit a career-best .305 with 44 doubles, 18 homers and 87 RBIs in his first season with the Royals. By dealing him to San Francisco, Kansas City opens up a spot in its outfielder for hotshot prospect Lorenzo Cain, who hit .312 at Triple-A Omaha this season. The Royals also get left-hander Ryan Verdugo in the deal. He was 8-6 with a 4.35 ERA for Double-A Richmond this year.

Sabean hasn't quite grasped the whole "buy low, sell high" aspect of trading but then again, he's only been GM for 15 years.

Seems like the guy has been around forever, but Melky's still only 27 and just entering his prime years. There's a chance he maintains that 2011 production for the foreseeable future. And Sanchez, he's actually a year older. Add to that, the Giants should actually end up saving a little bit of money here. According to MLBTrade rumors, Melky's arbitration projects to about $4.4M, Sanchez, $5.5M.Giants are trading from organizational depth here. It's not like they'll be hurting for a starting 5 after this. I like the deal.

SP#5: Zito? Surkamp? Some other replacement level arm? It's not a terrible trade but I think Melky is a big regression candidate. His BABIP was way above his career mark although not ridiculously high. He probably won't hit 18 HRs again in AT&T park. He's really not much of a CF but hopefully he's just holding the position until Gary Brown arrives.

There's a likelihood that anyone you bring in there isn't going to match their previous year's HR total. It's the nature of the beast that is AT&TAs for a 5th....They're paying Zito how many millions? That's not going away. If he can get back to 2009 / 2010 numbers (ERA around 4 / 1.35 WHIP) he'll be fine as a 5. Surkamp's been highly touted. Rough go in the bigs last year, but it was only a handful of starts. Probably a viable option now that he's gotten a taste.

 

[5Rings]

Not Hot Stove-related, just something I'm debating with a buddy of mine.

How many starting pitchers in history were better than Randy Johnson? I don't need exact names, just a rough number.

To give away my position, I don't think it would take long at all to call roll before the Unit's name came up.

10 maybe. Maybe.

Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux...there's a start.

I'd put Johnson somewhere in the #10-20 range depending on how much emphasis to put on peak or career value. Clemens and Maddux are his only contemporaries who were better.Johnson is better than Gibson or Ryan.

Don't agree.I'd also take Seaver, Carlton, Clemens, Marichal...but its a pretty short list.

 

[Daywalker]

Melky hit all year long. I know because I couldn't believe it. Some scrub owner in my league rode him all year.

But I don't like the trade. Melky is going to hit .280 with 15hrs in S.F. Keep Sanchez. He's pretty good as is. If he puts it together? Which he repeatedly hasn't he will be an All-Star.

Keep Sanchez and sign Fielder. Fielder going to get his no matter where he plays. Perhaps they will sign Fiedler still.

Love the Wright to Angels news I've been hearing. Been promoting that since the all-star break.

 

[Eephus]

Not Hot Stove-related, just something I'm debating with a buddy of mine.

How many starting pitchers in history were better than Randy Johnson? I don't need exact names, just a rough number.

To give away my position, I don't think it would take long at all to call roll before the Unit's name came up.

10 maybe. Maybe.

Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux...there's a start.

I'd put Johnson somewhere in the #10-20 range depending on how much emphasis to put on peak or career value. Clemens and Maddux are his only contemporaries who were better.Johnson is better than Gibson or Ryan.

Don't agree.I'd also take Seaver, Carlton, Clemens, Marichal...but its a pretty short list.

Gibson pitched in an era that strongly favored pitchers. His normalized stats except for 1968 aren't as impressive as Randy Johnson's. Gibson's 1968 season is an outlier season for him that happened to coincide with the outlier year for pitchers.Jack Morris is Gibson's #2 comp at B-R.

 

[5Rings]

Not Hot Stove-related, just something I'm debating with a buddy of mine.

How many starting pitchers in history were better than Randy Johnson? I don't need exact names, just a rough number.

To give away my position, I don't think it would take long at all to call roll before the Unit's name came up.

10 maybe. Maybe.

Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux...there's a start.

I'd put Johnson somewhere in the #10-20 range depending on how much emphasis to put on peak or career value. Clemens and Maddux are his only contemporaries who were better.Johnson is better than Gibson or Ryan.

Don't agree.I'd also take Seaver, Carlton, Clemens, Marichal...but its a pretty short list.

Gibson pitched in an era that strongly favored pitchers. His normalized stats except for 1968 aren't as impressive as Randy Johnson's. Gibson's 1968 season is an outlier season for him that happened to coincide with the outlier year for pitchers.Jack Morris is Gibson's #2 comp at B-R.

I understand we rely on stats so much today...but I stick by the old smell test on this one, no way (IMO) Morris can hold Gibson's jock in any era.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Giants key offseason issue #2Find another mediocre CF to replace Aaron Rowand.

The Kansas City Royals have traded outfielder Melky Cabrera to the San Francisco Giants for left-hander Jonathan Sanchez and another minor league pitcher.Sanchez was the Giants' best pitcher during the latter part of 2010, when they beat the Texas Rangers to win the World Series. But he was just 4-7 with a 4.26 ERA this season before missing the final month with a left ankle sprain.Cabrera hit a career-best .305 with 44 doubles, 18 homers and 87 RBIs in his first season with the Royals. By dealing him to San Francisco, Kansas City opens up a spot in its outfielder for hotshot prospect Lorenzo Cain, who hit .312 at Triple-A Omaha this season. The Royals also get left-hander Ryan Verdugo in the deal. He was 8-6 with a 4.35 ERA for Double-A Richmond this year.

Sabean hasn't quite grasped the whole "buy low, sell high" aspect of trading but then again, he's only been GM for 15 years.

Seems like the guy has been around forever, but Melky's still only 27 and just entering his prime years. There's a chance he maintains that 2011 production for the foreseeable future. And Sanchez, he's actually a year older. Add to that, the Giants should actually end up saving a little bit of money here. According to MLBTrade rumors, Melky's arbitration projects to about $4.4M, Sanchez, $5.5M.Giants are trading from organizational depth here. It's not like they'll be hurting for a starting 5 after this. I like the deal.

SP#5: Zito? Surkamp? Some other replacement level arm? It's not a terrible trade but I think Melky is a big regression candidate. His BABIP was way above his career mark although not ridiculously high. He probably won't hit 18 HRs again in AT&T park. He's really not much of a CF but hopefully he's just holding the position until Gary Brown arrives.

Lost in this is the solid little squad they are putting together in KC. I know it will be short lived as the stars cash in on their paydays to go to bigger markets, but Sal Perez, Eric Hosmer, Johnny Giavatolla, whatever scrub they put at SS, Mike Moustakas, Alex Gordon, Lorenzo Cain, and whoever they decide on in RF - with Billy Butler as the DH and Clint Robinson waiting in the wings at DH or 1B.....add to a developing rotation that will include Montgomery, Luis Mendoz, plus the youngsters already in the rotation. Now add Sanchez and I thing you have a legitametly competitve team in their division.This is the best they have had it in years - see how long they can hold it together.

 

[Eephus]

Giants key offseason issue #2Find another mediocre CF to replace Aaron Rowand.

The Kansas City Royals have traded outfielder Melky Cabrera to the San Francisco Giants for left-hander Jonathan Sanchez and another minor league pitcher.Sanchez was the Giants' best pitcher during the latter part of 2010, when they beat the Texas Rangers to win the World Series. But he was just 4-7 with a 4.26 ERA this season before missing the final month with a left ankle sprain.Cabrera hit a career-best .305 with 44 doubles, 18 homers and 87 RBIs in his first season with the Royals. By dealing him to San Francisco, Kansas City opens up a spot in its outfielder for hotshot prospect Lorenzo Cain, who hit .312 at Triple-A Omaha this season. The Royals also get left-hander Ryan Verdugo in the deal. He was 8-6 with a 4.35 ERA for Double-A Richmond this year.

Sabean hasn't quite grasped the whole "buy low, sell high" aspect of trading but then again, he's only been GM for 15 years.

Seems like the guy has been around forever, but Melky's still only 27 and just entering his prime years. There's a chance he maintains that 2011 production for the foreseeable future. And Sanchez, he's actually a year older. Add to that, the Giants should actually end up saving a little bit of money here. According to MLBTrade rumors, Melky's arbitration projects to about $4.4M, Sanchez, $5.5M.Giants are trading from organizational depth here. It's not like they'll be hurting for a starting 5 after this. I like the deal.

SP#5: Zito? Surkamp? Some other replacement level arm? It's not a terrible trade but I think Melky is a big regression candidate. His BABIP was way above his career mark although not ridiculously high. He probably won't hit 18 HRs again in AT&T park. He's really not much of a CF but hopefully he's just holding the position until Gary Brown arrives.

Lost in this is the solid little squad they are putting together in KC. I know it will be short lived as the stars cash in on their paydays to go to bigger markets, but Sal Perez, Eric Hosmer, Johnny Giavatolla, whatever scrub they put at SS, Mike Moustakas, Alex Gordon, Lorenzo Cain, and whoever they decide on in RF - with Billy Butler as the DH and Clint Robinson waiting in the wings at DH or 1B.....add to a developing rotation that will include Montgomery, Luis Mendoz, plus the youngsters already in the rotation. Now add Sanchez and I thing you have a legitametly competitve team in their division.This is the best they have had it in years - see how long they can hold it together.

KC is still a 91 loss team with a 4.45 team ERA. Sanchez will fit right in with a staff that led the league in BB/9. But you're right that Moore has assembled a good collection of young talent. At some point, they'll need to spend some money to bring in some supplementary players but I'd be surprised if this is the year they do that.I've already weighed in on the Melky-Sanchez deal but no matter what the outcome, it's hard to fault KC on how they handled Cabrera. They got him for nothing after he was released by Atlanta, they paid him $1.25M for a 4 win season and then flipped him to fill a need.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

It's being reported Billy Beane is open to moving every single player other than Weeks. That includes Gio, Suzuki, Cahill, and Bailey.

Wonder if any team has the farm system and the willingness to get a trade done.

 

[Bogart]

It's being reported Billy Beane is open to moving every single player other than Weeks. That includes Gio, Suzuki, Cahill, and Bailey.Wonder if any team has the farm system and the willingness to get a trade done.

Would he trade within the division??Would be nice to see Gio in Ranger red.

 

[Eephus]

It's being reported Billy Beane is open to moving every single player other than Weeks. That includes Gio, Suzuki, Cahill, and Bailey.Wonder if any team has the farm system and the willingness to get a trade done.

Would he trade within the division??Would be nice to see Gio in Ranger red.

I don't think Lew Wolff cares where the players go as long as he saves money now and the team eventually ends up in San Jose.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

It's being reported Billy Beane is open to moving every single player other than Weeks. That includes Gio, Suzuki, Cahill, and Bailey.Wonder if any team has the farm system and the willingness to get a trade done.

Would he trade within the division??Would be nice to see Gio in Ranger red.

Beane's plan (if they can relocate to San Jose) is to have the team contending in 2013-2014. That would coincide with the new ballpark opening up. I don't think he would trade in the division if all else was equal. But I also doubt he would refuse to trade within the division if it was a good deal.Of course if they're denied the move to SJ I have no clue what they'd do.

 

[Billy Bats]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

 

[dparker713]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

 

[RnR]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

This deal is not good, but that's not even close being true."dparker713, meet my friend Ed Wade. Ed, this is dparker713.... from the internet. Glad to introduce you guys."

 

[dparker713]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

This deal is not good, but that's not even close being true."dparker713, meet my friend Ed Wade. Ed, this is dparker713.... from the internet. Glad to introduce you guys."

Not sure Ed Wade counts anymore. He's a dead man walking. And take a look at Ruben's track record. He even lost the Lidge trade with Ed Wade.ETA: And its a bit early, but he may have lost the Oswalt trade too.

 

[Eephus]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

This deal is not good, but that's not even close being true."dparker713, meet my friend Ed Wade. Ed, this is dparker713.... from the internet. Glad to introduce you guys."

Not sure Ed Wade counts anymore. He's a dead man walking. And take a look at Ruben's track record. He even lost the Lidge trade with Ed Wade.ETA: And its a bit early, but he may have lost the Oswalt trade too.

The jury is out on the Pence trade as well. Jarred Cosart is a wild card.The team is in win now mode with a narrowing window in the future. Some of Amaro's moves are defensible from that standpoint. Presumably it'll be someone else's job by the time they have to rebuild around some ugly expiring contracts.

 

[Thunderlips]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

This deal is not good, but that's not even close being true."dparker713, meet my friend Ed Wade. Ed, this is dparker713.... from the internet. Glad to introduce you guys."

Not sure Ed Wade counts anymore. He's a dead man walking.

And take a look at Ruben's track record. He even lost the Lidge trade with Ed Wade.

ETA: And its a bit early, but he may have lost the Oswalt trade too.

Michael Bourne would have been MUCH more important to that 2008 Championship team than Brad Lidge.

 

[the moops]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

This deal is not good, but that's not even close being true."dparker713, meet my friend Ed Wade. Ed, this is dparker713.... from the internet. Glad to introduce you guys."

Not sure Ed Wade counts anymore. He's a dead man walking.

And take a look at Ruben's track record. He even lost the Lidge trade with Ed Wade.

ETA: And its a bit early, but he may have lost the Oswalt trade too.

Michael Bourne would have been MUCH more important to that 2008 Championship team than Brad Lidge.

 

[skillz]

Has anyone heard anything on the status of CBA negotiations? The contract expires on Dec. 11.

I suspect that no news means good news - as in both sides are making progress so neither feels the need to whine to the media. Any chance that the CBA negotiations turn into a mess like the NBA or NFL? I suspect there will be more internal fighting between large and small market owners over revenue sharing than between the demands between players and owners.

 

[dparker713]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

This deal is not good, but that's not even close being true."dparker713, meet my friend Ed Wade. Ed, this is dparker713.... from the internet. Glad to introduce you guys."

Not sure Ed Wade counts anymore. He's a dead man walking.

And take a look at Ruben's track record. He even lost the Lidge trade with Ed Wade.

ETA: And its a bit early, but he may have lost the Oswalt trade too.

Michael Bourne would have been MUCH more important to that 2008 Championship team than Brad Lidge.

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

 

[the moops]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

3 whole games? I'm surprised they didnt shut down their entire staff after the all-star break with such a lead.

 

[RnR]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

3 whole games? I'm surprised they didnt shut down their entire staff after the all-star break with such a lead.

Ignore Lidge finishing 4th in the Cy Young vote of '08. That wasn't warranted. And Michael Bourne's .588 OPS? That was severely undervalued. Mmmk?

 

[fred_1_15301]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

Not even close. Not even the worst GM in his own state.

 

[dparker713]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

3 whole games? I'm surprised they didnt shut down their entire staff after the all-star break with such a lead.

Ignore Lidge finishing 4th in the Cy Young vote of '08. That wasn't warranted. And Michael Bourne's .588 OPS? That was severely undervalued. Mmmk?

Using Cy Young voting to determine the value of a player is akin to using Gold Gloves - utterly worthless.Im not claiming Bourn was better than Lidge that season. I'm claiming Amaro lost the deal, so unless you're going say the only way they win in 2008 is with Lidge, you've got to look at the value for both sides over several years. And there is no possible way you can claim Lidge was better than Bourn since 2008.

 

[Thunderlips]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

3 whole games? I'm surprised they didnt shut down their entire staff after the all-star break with such a lead.

Ignore Lidge finishing 4th in the Cy Young vote of '08. That wasn't warranted. And Michael Bourne's .588 OPS? That was severely undervalued. Mmmk?

Using Cy Young voting to determine the value of a player is akin to using Gold Gloves - utterly worthless.Im not claiming Bourn was better than Lidge that season. I'm claiming Amaro lost the deal, so unless you're going say the only way they win in 2008 is with Lidge, you've got to look at the value for both sides over several years. And there is no possible way you can claim Lidge was better than Bourn since 2008.

Lidge and the 2008 MLB Championship are worth more than Bourne since 2008. You have the right to the opinion that they would have won it without Lidge and with Bourne splitting time in the OF.....but I can't imagine that many people would agree with you.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Has anyone heard anything on the status of CBA negotiations? The contract expires on Dec. 11. I suspect that no news means good news - as in both sides are making progress so neither feels the need to whine to the media. Any chance that the CBA negotiations turn into a mess like the NBA or NFL? I suspect there will be more internal fighting between large and small market owners over revenue sharing than between the demands between players and owners.

Selig discussed this a few weeks ago and from all accounts, there is no news. They will sign and ratify everything at the ownership meetings and it seems it is a harmonious situation for the next five to ten years. Everyone is happy with what is going on right now in the game. The owners, the players and the fans.

 

[Billy Bats]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

This deal is not good, but that's not even close being true."dparker713, meet my friend Ed Wade. Ed, this is dparker713.... from the internet. Glad to introduce you guys."

Not sure Ed Wade counts anymore. He's a dead man walking.

And take a look at Ruben's track record. He even lost the Lidge trade with Ed Wade.

ETA: And its a bit early, but he may have lost the Oswalt trade too.

Michael Bourne would have been MUCH more important to that 2008 Championship team than Brad Lidge.

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

The dude was 48 for 48 (7/7 postseason) in save opportunities from opening day to the final pitch of the World Series, which he closed. But yea, he didn't contribute much.

 

[RnR]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

3 whole games? I'm surprised they didnt shut down their entire staff after the all-star break with such a lead.

Ignore Lidge finishing 4th in the Cy Young vote of '08. That wasn't warranted. And Michael Bourne's .588 OPS? That was severely undervalued. Mmmk?

Using Cy Young voting to determine the value of a player is akin to using Gold Gloves - utterly worthless.Im not claiming Bourn was better than Lidge that season. I'm claiming Amaro lost the deal, so unless you're going say the only way they win in 2008 is with Lidge, you've got to look at the value for both sides over several years. And there is no possible way you can claim Lidge was better than Bourn since 2008.

Ok. Thanks for the lecture.Fine, I'll stop short of using the "easy route" of pointing out his Cy Young finish. Do you really want to start a "stat geek fight" over Michael Bourn? We can go through this, but I encourage you to take a good look at his OPS+ and just chill instead. He's a below average hitter that gets fantasy baseball pub because he steals bases. Sub-.700 career OPS outfielders are liabilities, not assets. Lidge has been up and down, but his value to the '08 championship team alone makes him worth that trade.

 

[Captain Hook]

KC is still a 91 loss team with a 4.45 team ERA. Sanchez will fit right in with a staff that led the league in BB/9. But you're right that Moore has assembled a good collection of young talent. At some point, they'll need to spend some money to bring in some supplementary players but I'd be surprised if this is the year they do that.

I've already weighed in on the Melky-Sanchez deal but no matter what the outcome, it's hard to fault KC on how they handled Cabrera. They got him for nothing after he was released by Atlanta, they paid him $1.25M for a 4 win season and then flipped him to fill a need.

Was in 2011 but I doubt they will be in 2012................BUT I do agree they NEED to find a GOOD free agent pitcher OR trade for a good one if the team starts well next spring but one of the SP is not up to speedAnd you are right they were right on both ends of their Melky actions - next year Cain will be in CF (and likely for the next ten years)

 

[dparker713]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

3 whole games? I'm surprised they didnt shut down their entire staff after the all-star break with such a lead.

Ignore Lidge finishing 4th in the Cy Young vote of '08. That wasn't warranted. And Michael Bourne's .588 OPS? That was severely undervalued. Mmmk?

Using Cy Young voting to determine the value of a player is akin to using Gold Gloves - utterly worthless.Im not claiming Bourn was better than Lidge that season. I'm claiming Amaro lost the deal, so unless you're going say the only way they win in 2008 is with Lidge, you've got to look at the value for both sides over several years. And there is no possible way you can claim Lidge was better than Bourn since 2008.

Ok. Thanks for the lecture.Fine, I'll stop short of using the "easy route" of pointing out his Cy Young finish. Do you really want to start a "stat geek fight" over Michael Bourn? We can go through this, but I encourage you to take a good look at his OPS+ and just chill instead. He's a below average hitter that gets fantasy baseball pub because he steals bases. Sub-.700 career OPS outfielders are liabilities, not assets. Lidge has been up and down, but his value to the '08 championship team alone makes him worth that trade.

If you're using OPS, you'd lose a "stat geek fight"And there's this other thing called defense. You might have heard of it.

 

[dparker713]

Madson rumored to be resigning at 4/44 with a 5th year option.

Ruben Amaro may just be the worst GM in the league.

This deal is not good, but that's not even close being true."dparker713, meet my friend Ed Wade. Ed, this is dparker713.... from the internet. Glad to introduce you guys."

Not sure Ed Wade counts anymore. He's a dead man walking.

And take a look at Ruben's track record. He even lost the Lidge trade with Ed Wade.

ETA: And its a bit early, but he may have lost the Oswalt trade too.

Michael Bourne would have been MUCH more important to that 2008 Championship team than Brad Lidge.

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

The dude was 48 for 48 (7/7 postseason) in save opportunities from opening day to the final pitch of the World Series, which he closed. But yea, he didn't contribute much.

You just cited saves to detemine value. You lose.

 

[RnR]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

3 whole games? I'm surprised they didnt shut down their entire staff after the all-star break with such a lead.

Ignore Lidge finishing 4th in the Cy Young vote of '08. That wasn't warranted. And Michael Bourne's .588 OPS? That was severely undervalued. Mmmk?

Using Cy Young voting to determine the value of a player is akin to using Gold Gloves - utterly worthless.Im not claiming Bourn was better than Lidge that season. I'm claiming Amaro lost the deal, so unless you're going say the only way they win in 2008 is with Lidge, you've got to look at the value for both sides over several years. And there is no possible way you can claim Lidge was better than Bourn since 2008.

Ok. Thanks for the lecture.Fine, I'll stop short of using the "easy route" of pointing out his Cy Young finish. Do you really want to start a "stat geek fight" over Michael Bourn? We can go through this, but I encourage you to take a good look at his OPS+ and just chill instead. He's a below average hitter that gets fantasy baseball pub because he steals bases. Sub-.700 career OPS outfielders are liabilities, not assets. Lidge has been up and down, but his value to the '08 championship team alone makes him worth that trade.

If you're using OPS, you'd lose a "stat geek fight"And there's this other thing called defense. You might have heard of it.

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

 

[Billy Bats]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

The dude was 48 for 48 (7/7 postseason) in save opportunities from opening day to the final pitch of the World Series, which he closed. But yea, he didn't contribute much.

You just cited saves to detemine value. You lose.

even louder. Oh so you're one of those. Please don't waste my time.

 

[dparker713]

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

If you're going to lay the 2008 championship at the feet of Lidge, yes I do.

 

[dparker713]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

The dude was 48 for 48 (7/7 postseason) in save opportunities from opening day to the final pitch of the World Series, which he closed. But yea, he didn't contribute much.

You just cited saves to detemine value. You lose.

even louder. Oh so you're one of those. Please don't waste my time.

I know right? All stats are stupid, except for the crappy ones that you cite of course.

 

[boubucarow]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

The dude was 48 for 48 (7/7 postseason) in save opportunities from opening day to the final pitch of the World Series, which he closed. But yea, he didn't contribute much.

You just cited saves to detemine value. You lose.

even louder. Oh so you're one of those. Please don't waste my time.

I know right? All stats are stupid, except for the crappy ones that you cite of course.

Your arrogant take is a bit much. It all depends on how much you value the Championship in 2008. Lidge had the highest WAR of any NL reliever and the 3rd highest of any pitcher on the Phillies. There isn't a metric that doesn't recognize Lidge as a elite reliever that season. Bourn was a negative WAR player in 2008 at the plate and in the field. Not making that trade could have cost the Phillies a title. Of course, since then Bourn is a much much better player. Could that trade have prevented another title happening? Maybe. But if the goal is to win a title and Lidge played a major role in that happening, then you can say the Phillies won that trade.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

KC is still a 91 loss team with a 4.45 team ERA. Sanchez will fit right in with a staff that led the league in BB/9. But you're right that Moore has assembled a good collection of young talent. At some point, they'll need to spend some money to bring in some supplementary players but I'd be surprised if this is the year they do that.

I've already weighed in on the Melky-Sanchez deal but no matter what the outcome, it's hard to fault KC on how they handled Cabrera. They got him for nothing after he was released by Atlanta, they paid him $1.25M for a 4 win season and then flipped him to fill a need.

Was in 2011 but I doubt they will be in 2012................BUT I do agree they NEED to find a GOOD free agent pitcher OR trade for a good one if the team starts well next spring but one of the SP is not up to speedAnd you are right they were right on both ends of their Melky actions - next year Cain will be in CF (and likely for the next ten years)

I think it is crazy to think of 2012 Royals as a 91 loss team. They are a prime candidate for the over on wins next year based on what they have developed through the farm system. That said, they don't have a stopper in their rotation. Hochevar, Mendoza, Sanchez and Duffy in my opinion are all good for the 2-5 spots but unless one of them steps up to be dominant stopper, that will be the key - landing that one pitcher who is not going to go through extended lulls. The lineup is fantastic - could use middle infield depth behind Giavotella and Escobar. This lineup will compete. I saw they just signed Soria - but in all honesty their best closer is Herrera who looks to spend one more year in Omaha.

 

[Eephus]

KC is still a 91 loss team with a 4.45 team ERA. Sanchez will fit right in with a staff that led the league in BB/9. But you're right that Moore has assembled a good collection of young talent. At some point, they'll need to spend some money to bring in some supplementary players but I'd be surprised if this is the year they do that.

I've already weighed in on the Melky-Sanchez deal but no matter what the outcome, it's hard to fault KC on how they handled Cabrera. They got him for nothing after he was released by Atlanta, they paid him $1.25M for a 4 win season and then flipped him to fill a need.

Was in 2011 but I doubt they will be in 2012................BUT I do agree they NEED to find a GOOD free agent pitcher OR trade for a good one if the team starts well next spring but one of the SP is not up to speedAnd you are right they were right on both ends of their Melky actions - next year Cain will be in CF (and likely for the next ten years)

I think it is crazy to think of 2012 Royals as a 91 loss team. They are a prime candidate for the over on wins next year based on what they have developed through the farm system. That said, they don't have a stopper in their rotation. Hochevar, Mendoza, Sanchez and Duffy in my opinion are all good for the 2-5 spots but unless one of them steps up to be dominant stopper, that will be the key - landing that one pitcher who is not going to go through extended lulls. The lineup is fantastic - could use middle infield depth behind Giavotella and Escobar. This lineup will compete. I saw they just signed Soria - but in all honesty their best closer is Herrera who looks to spend one more year in Omaha.

Mike Montgomery is at AAA but his lack of command has knocked him off the hot prospects list. He's only 22 so there's still hope but right now he's closer to being a younger Jonathan Sanchez than he is to being an ace SP.

 

[RnR]

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

If you're going to lay the 2008 championship at the feet of Lidge, yes I do.

If you're going to start exaggerating and/or making stuff up to make you sound better in this discussion, probably best we don't waste our time.

 

[Limp Ditka]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

The dude was 48 for 48 (7/7 postseason) in save opportunities from opening day to the final pitch of the World Series, which he closed. But yea, he didn't contribute much.

You just cited saves to detemine value. You lose.

even louder. Oh so you're one of those. Please don't waste my time.

I know right? All stats are stupid, except for the crappy ones that you cite of course.

Your arrogant take is a bit much. It all depends on how much you value the Championship in 2008. Lidge had the highest WAR of any NL reliever and the 3rd highest of any pitcher on the Phillies. There isn't a metric that doesn't recognize Lidge as a elite reliever that season. Bourn was a negative WAR player in 2008 at the plate and in the field. Not making that trade could have cost the Phillies a title. Of course, since then Bourn is a much much better player. Could that trade have prevented another title happening? Maybe. But if the goal is to win a title and Lidge played a major role in that happening, then you can say the Phillies won that trade.

dpark arrogant? Say it ain't so, bou. say it ain't so.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

If you're going to lay the 2008 championship at the feet of Lidge, yes I do.

If you're going to start exaggerating and/or making stuff up to make you sound better in this discussion, probably best we don't waste our time.

It's not like facts would convince you.

 

[RnR]

Your arrogant take is a bit much. It all depends on how much you value the Championship in 2008. Lidge had the highest WAR of any NL reliever and the 3rd highest of any pitcher on the Phillies. There isn't a metric that doesn't recognize Lidge as a elite reliever that season. Bourn was a negative WAR player in 2008 at the plate and in the field. Not making that trade could have cost the Phillies a title. Of course, since then Bourn is a much much better player. Could that trade have prevented another title happening? Maybe. But if the goal is to win a title and Lidge played a major role in that happening, then you can say the Phillies won that trade.

I was preparing a response for Mr. Personality, but I really can't sum it up better than that. Perfect.

 

[RnR]

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

If you're going to lay the 2008 championship at the feet of Lidge, yes I do.

If you're going to start exaggerating and/or making stuff up to make you sound better in this discussion, probably best we don't waste our time.

It's not like facts would convince you.

I really don't get your fascination with me. Are you still mad about that trade you were wrong about for that team you didn't own in that league you weren't in?

 

[RnR]

Getting back on track, let's talk Rod Barajas to the Pirates. This has to be the move that gets them over the hump, no?

 

[Limp Ditka]

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

If you're going to lay the 2008 championship at the feet of Lidge, yes I do.

If you're going to start exaggerating and/or making stuff up to make you sound better in this discussion, probably best we don't waste our time.

It's not like facts would convince you.

I really don't get your fascination with me. Are you still mad about that trade you were wrong about for that team you didn't own in that league you weren't in?

It's your general attitude about pretty much everything baseball. And you want to talk about fascinations, aren't you supposed to be ignoring me?

 

[RnR]

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

If you're going to lay the 2008 championship at the feet of Lidge, yes I do.

If you're going to start exaggerating and/or making stuff up to make you sound better in this discussion, probably best we don't waste our time.

It's not like facts would convince you.

I really don't get your fascination with me. Are you still mad about that trade you were wrong about for that team you didn't own in that league you weren't in?

It's your general attitude about pretty much everything baseball. And you want to talk about fascinations, aren't you supposed to be ignoring me?

Ehh... you replied directly to my post there, Chief.Sorry you feel that way. I actually spend quite a bit of time around baseball and generally like to think I know what I'm talking about. I'm not going to read you some sort of a credential list to make you feel that way, but I'm not just shooting from the hip.

 

[dparker713]

They won the division by 3 games and in the entire playoffs Lidge only came in with a 1 run lead twice. Flags fly forever, but lets not overrate Lidge's contributions to that championship.

The dude was 48 for 48 (7/7 postseason) in save opportunities from opening day to the final pitch of the World Series, which he closed. But yea, he didn't contribute much.

You just cited saves to detemine value. You lose.

even louder. Oh so you're one of those. Please don't waste my time.

I know right? All stats are stupid, except for the crappy ones that you cite of course.

Your arrogant take is a bit much. It all depends on how much you value the Championship in 2008. Lidge had the highest WAR of any NL reliever and the 3rd highest of any pitcher on the Phillies. There isn't a metric that doesn't recognize Lidge as a elite reliever that season. Bourn was a negative WAR player in 2008 at the plate and in the field. Not making that trade could have cost the Phillies a title. Of course, since then Bourn is a much much better player. Could that trade have prevented another title happening? Maybe. But if the goal is to win a title and Lidge played a major role in that happening, then you can say the Phillies won that trade.

At no point did I claim that Lidge didn't have a significant role on that championship team. But you can only say the Phillies won that trade if you conclude they don't win the championship that year without Lidge. And thats a bridge too far. They still likely get to the playoffs without him and he wasn't all that important in those playoffs.

 

[dparker713]

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

If you're going to lay the 2008 championship at the feet of Lidge, yes I do.

If you're going to start exaggerating and/or making stuff up to make you sound better in this discussion, probably best we don't waste our time.

Lidge has been up and down, but his value to the '08 championship team alone makes him worth that trade.

You're giving his contributions to that 08 team some form of excess value. Implying that the Phillies don't win without him. Do you even remember those playoffs? The Phillies mostly rolled the competition. And the Mets were never going to beat them for the division they'd have choked if they were ever in position. But you are right about one thing, no need to waste anymore time on this.