***Official 2012 Hot Stove Thread (1 Viewer)

[boubucarow]

Where do you want to take this, Bill James? Dazzle me with some depth of WAR or UZR or wRC+ that you think I don't understand. Do you really think I'm uninformed here?

If you're going to lay the 2008 championship at the feet of Lidge, yes I do.

If you're going to start exaggerating and/or making stuff up to make you sound better in this discussion, probably best we don't waste our time.

Lidge has been up and down, but his value to the '08 championship team alone makes him worth that trade.

You're giving his contributions to that 08 team some form of excess value. Implying that the Phillies don't win without him. Do you even remember those playoffs? The Phillies mostly rolled the competition. And the Mets were never going to beat them for the division they'd have choked if they were ever in position. But you are right about one thing, no need to waste anymore time on this.

The Phillies won 92 games that year. The Braves won 89 and the Brewers were the WC with 90. So if they had 3 less wins they are in at least a one game playoff and possibly out if the Braves win one of those extra losses. Lidge's WAR in 2008 was 2.8 and he didn't blow a save. Now throw in Bourn's -2.1 WAR possibly stealing time from Werth (4.2), Victorino (3.7) and Burrell (1.8). It is highly possibly the Phillies do not make the playoffs in 08 without that trade. I am done now.

 

[Bogart]

I'm bothered by the lack of Hot Stove chat in here. Can someone change the title to the Randy Johnson/Brad Lidge circle jerk thread?

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

KC is still a 91 loss team with a 4.45 team ERA. Sanchez will fit right in with a staff that led the league in BB/9. But you're right that Moore has assembled a good collection of young talent. At some point, they'll need to spend some money to bring in some supplementary players but I'd be surprised if this is the year they do that.

I've already weighed in on the Melky-Sanchez deal but no matter what the outcome, it's hard to fault KC on how they handled Cabrera. They got him for nothing after he was released by Atlanta, they paid him $1.25M for a 4 win season and then flipped him to fill a need.

Was in 2011 but I doubt they will be in 2012................BUT I do agree they NEED to find a GOOD free agent pitcher OR trade for a good one if the team starts well next spring but one of the SP is not up to speedAnd you are right they were right on both ends of their Melky actions - next year Cain will be in CF (and likely for the next ten years)

I think it is crazy to think of 2012 Royals as a 91 loss team. They are a prime candidate for the over on wins next year based on what they have developed through the farm system. That said, they don't have a stopper in their rotation. Hochevar, Mendoza, Sanchez and Duffy in my opinion are all good for the 2-5 spots but unless one of them steps up to be dominant stopper, that will be the key - landing that one pitcher who is not going to go through extended lulls. The lineup is fantastic - could use middle infield depth behind Giavotella and Escobar. This lineup will compete. I saw they just signed Soria - but in all honesty their best closer is Herrera who looks to spend one more year in Omaha.

Mike Montgomery is at AAA but his lack of command has knocked him off the hot prospects list. He's only 22 so there's still hope but right now he's closer to being a younger Jonathan Sanchez than he is to being an ace SP.

Monty isn't the answer - he'll be a serviceable 4 or 5...I went to virtually every Omaha Stormchaser game this yer (KC AAA Affiliate) and when he was pitching it always seemed like he was working on a changeup - he'd get raked for a couple innings then settle down. Nothing special. Mendoza on the other hand seemed to have that "it" factor. They clearly need to look outside the organization for that #1 guy...someone like say...Grienke. Oh yeah, they lost him to a bigger market. Milwaukee. Are you freaking kidding me?

 

[RnR]

I'm bothered by the lack of Hot Stove chat in here. Can someone change the title to the Randy Johnson/Brad Lidge circle jerk thread?

Getting back on track, let's talk Rod Barajas to the Pirates. This has to be the move that gets them over the hump, no?

 

[Daywalker]

For what it's worth, Angels GM Dipoto said not to rule them out on Fiedler and Pujols. Third base and the bully are the priorities but he said they are a high-revenue team and they will be very active.

 

[RnR]

For what it's worth, Angels GM Dipoto said not to rule them out on Fiedler and Pujols. Third base and the bully are the priorities but he said they are a high-revenue team and they will be very active.

Interesting development on that front: http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/33223011Seems Trumbo at 3rd would open up a slot for Fielder/Pujols and leave Kendrys to DH if he can make it back.

 

[boubucarow]

For what it's worth, Angels GM Dipoto said not to rule them out on Fiedler and Pujols. Third base and the bully are the priorities but he said they are a high-revenue team and they will be very active.

Interesting development on that front: http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/33223011Seems Trumbo at 3rd would open up a slot for Fielder/Pujols and leave Kendrys to DH if he can make it back.

Pretty sure there is no chance Trumbo is even an 80 game 3B.

 

[dparker713]

For what it's worth, Angels GM Dipoto said not to rule them out on Fiedler and Pujols. Third base and the bully are the priorities but he said they are a high-revenue team and they will be very active.

They're high revenue, but earlier Artie said they were going to have a payroll around what they had last year. Don't see how they can add a contract of one of those two and stay in that range.

 

[RnR]

For what it's worth, Angels GM Dipoto said not to rule them out on Fiedler and Pujols. Third base and the bully are the priorities but he said they are a high-revenue team and they will be very active.

Interesting development on that front: http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/33223011Seems Trumbo at 3rd would open up a slot for Fielder/Pujols and leave Kendrys to DH if he can make it back.

Pretty sure there is no chance Trumbo is even an 80 game 3B.

I agree. Just makes you wonder why they're even messing with it though. It can't be for Morales.

 

[Bogart]

I'm bothered by the lack of Hot Stove chat in here. Can someone change the title to the Randy Johnson/Brad Lidge circle jerk thread?

Getting back on track, let's talk Rod Barajas to the Pirates. This has to be the move that gets them over the hump, no?

You are going to have to come with more than Rod Freakin' Barajas going to the Pirates. That is not even an ember from a coal from the Hot Stove. That is like some left over ash that might feel above room temperature.

 

[curta269]

Rumor has it, Pujols is meeting with the Miami Marlins this weekend.

 

[RnR]

I'm bothered by the lack of Hot Stove chat in here. Can someone change the title to the Randy Johnson/Brad Lidge circle jerk thread?

Getting back on track, let's talk Rod Barajas to the Pirates. This has to be the move that gets them over the hump, no?

You are going to have to come with more than Rod Freakin' Barajas going to the Pirates. That is not even an ember from a coal from the Hot Stove. That is like some left over ash that might feel above room temperature.

How dare you insult a man that gave three of his best years behind the plate to the Texas Rangers. How dare you!

 

[RnR]

Updating the Madson debate: According to Jayson Stark on twitter, Phils appear close to landing Papelbon as the Madson deal appears to be falling apart.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Updating the Madson debate: According to Jayson Stark on twitter, Phils appear close to landing Papelbon as the Madson deal appears to be falling apart.

Not sure what the numbers will be for Papelbon but I have a hunch it will be much better than dealing with Boras and signing Madson as one of the highest paid closers for a 4 year deal.

 

[Oh Yes!]

Rumor has it, Pujols is meeting with the Miami Marlins this weekend.

any chance they sign Reyes and Pujols? Reyes Hanley Pujols Stanton would be one hell of a lineup...

 

[RnR]

Rumor has it, Pujols is meeting with the Miami Marlins this weekend.

any chance they sign Reyes and Pujols? Reyes Hanley Pujols Stanton would be one hell of a lineup...

I did read somewhere they plan to sign two marquee free agents this off-season. That would certainly be knocking it out of the park.

 

[the moops]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

 

[dennis.moore]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

At least the Yankee/Red Sox games will finish in under 5 hours now.

 

[Raider Nation]

Red Sox Nation is crumbling before our eyes. The world is just as it should be.

 

[the moops]

Red Sox Nation is crumbling before our eyes. The world is just as it should be.

Papelbon is a tool. I will be happy not to have to watch his stupid face anymore.

 

[Raider Nation]

Red Sox Nation is crumbling before our eyes. The world is just as it should be.

Papelbon is a tool. I will be happy not to have to watch his stupid face anymore.

I think we can all agree on this. And he thought Fenway was a bandbox? This should be fun.

 

[Please See Mine]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

 

[Eephus]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

 

[dparker713]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

This is a horrible deal and how on Earth is Papelbon for 4/50 better than Madson for 4/44, both with vesting options and Paplebon being a type A restricted FA?I have an even lower opinion of Amaro now than I did a few days ago.

 

[RnR]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

This is a horrible deal and how on Earth is Papelbon for 4/50 better than Madson for 4/44, both with vesting options and Paplebon being a type A restricted FA?I have an even lower opinion of Amaro now than I did a few days ago.

Isn't the Type A issue a wash? Madson should be bringing them back the pick that they lose for signing Papelbon.

 

[the moops]

Madson should be bringing them back the pick that they lose for signing Papelbon.

Unless a bottom 15 team signs him.

 

[RnR]

Madson should be bringing them back the pick that they lose for signing Papelbon.

Unless a bottom 15 team signs him.

Good call.

 

[dparker713]

Madson should be bringing them back the pick that they lose for signing Papelbon.

Unless a bottom 15 team signs him.

Or a team that signs a higher type A FA.Of course, these rules could all change with the new CBA, but as it stands now its a risk. To me its an unnecessary risk considering the track record of long term reliever deals and Papelbon's age and track record.

 

[the moops]

Madson should be bringing them back the pick that they lose for signing Papelbon.

Unless a bottom 15 team signs him.

Or a team that signs a higher type A FA.Of course, these rules could all change with the new CBA, but as it stands now its a risk. To me its an unnecessary risk considering the track record of long term reliever deals and Papelbon's age and track record.

I dont love the deal for Phillie, but Papelbon is the same age and has thrown nearly identical amount of innings the past 4 years as Madson.

 

[shadyridr]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

This is a horrible deal and how on Earth is Papelbon for 4/50 better than Madson for 4/44, both with vesting options and Paplebon being a type A restricted FA?I have an even lower opinion of Amaro now than I did a few days ago.

pap smear is better than madson. do you disagree with that?

 

[otello]

I thought the phillies only signed pitchers to three year deals.

 

[Thunderlips]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

This is a horrible deal and how on Earth is Papelbon for 4/50 better than Madson for 4/44, both with vesting options and Paplebon being a type A restricted FA?I have an even lower opinion of Amaro now than I did a few days ago.

Was the 4/44 even legit?

 

[shadyridr]

marlins offered comtracts to pujols, reyes, and buehrle? how realistic are those offers?

 

[Please See Mine]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

This is a horrible deal and how on Earth is Papelbon for 4/50 better than Madson for 4/44, both with vesting options and Paplebon being a type A restricted FA?I have an even lower opinion of Amaro now than I did a few days ago.

Was the 4/44 even legit?

Salisbury was on the radio locally earlier and said that it was.

 

[Please See Mine]

I thought the phillies only signed pitchers to three year deals.

cliff lee down?

 

[otello]

Cliff lee was an exception, supposedly.

 

[Billy Bats]

I thought the phillies only signed pitchers to three year deals.

cliff lee down?

That was their decades-long organizational philosophy until Cliff Lee.

 

[dparker713]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

This is a horrible deal and how on Earth is Papelbon for 4/50 better than Madson for 4/44, both with vesting options and Paplebon being a type A restricted FA?I have an even lower opinion of Amaro now than I did a few days ago.

pap smear is better than madson. do you disagree with that?

I think they're both about the same. I don't see Papelbon ever returning to the dominance he once displayed, so I think they're both capable of elite seasons in relief at this point, but hardly particularly good bets to be consistently elite for the next 4 years.

 

[Snotbubbles]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

This is a horrible deal and how on Earth is Papelbon for 4/50 better than Madson for 4/44, both with vesting options and Paplebon being a type A restricted FA?I have an even lower opinion of Amaro now than I did a few days ago.

pap smear is better than madson. do you disagree with that?

I think they're both about the same. I don't see Papelbon ever returning to the dominance he once displayed, so I think they're both capable of elite seasons in relief at this point, but hardly particularly good bets to be consistently elite for the next 4 years.

The Phils went with the guy they KNEW could handle the 9th inning instead of the guy they THOUGHT could handle the 9th. Madson was pretty good for Philly last year in the closer role but at the beginning of the season there was questions whether he could handle the closer role (as he failed miserably at it in previous attempts). And now there is some question whether he can repeat his previous season. For an extra 6M over 4 year, they must have thought it a safer play to go with the guy who had the track record. The money for Philly is irrelevant since they were paying Lidge 12M, they just alloted that to Papelbon. I would have been happy with either guy as I think they'll both be effective closers over the next couple of years.

 

[dparker713]

The Phils went with the guy they KNEW could handle the 9th inning instead of the guy they THOUGHT could handle the 9th. Madson was pretty good for Philly last year in the closer role but at the beginning of the season there was questions whether he could handle the closer role (as he failed miserably at it in previous attempts). And now there is some question whether he can repeat his previous season. For an extra 6M over 4 year, they must have thought it a safer play to go with the guy who had the track record. The money for Philly is irrelevant since they were paying Lidge 12M, they just alloted that to Papelbon. I would have been happy with either guy as I think they'll both be effective closers over the next couple of years.

The guy they KNEW could handle the 9th, when last seen was blowing a game upon which the entire Red Sox season depended. Not that there is some mythical quality which allows guys to pitch in the 9th inning of ballgames. And Papelbon's salary most certainly matters, seeing as they're just starting to pay 25 mil per season to a hobbled 1b and they're already maxing out their revenue. I.e., just because they were pissing away money on Lidge didn't mean they needed to turn right around and start pissing away money on Papelbon.I must say, this signing does leave a warm an fuzzy feeling in my heart as a Mets fan. Sure, we're a shambles but atleast Amaro seems intent on returning the Phils to a craptastic franchise sooner rather than later.

 

[Snotbubbles]

The Phils went with the guy they KNEW could handle the 9th inning instead of the guy they THOUGHT could handle the 9th. Madson was pretty good for Philly last year in the closer role but at the beginning of the season there was questions whether he could handle the closer role (as he failed miserably at it in previous attempts). And now there is some question whether he can repeat his previous season. For an extra 6M over 4 year, they must have thought it a safer play to go with the guy who had the track record. The money for Philly is irrelevant since they were paying Lidge 12M, they just alloted that to Papelbon. I would have been happy with either guy as I think they'll both be effective closers over the next couple of years.

The guy they KNEW could handle the 9th, when last seen was blowing a game upon which the entire Red Sox season depended. Not that there is some mythical quality which allows guys to pitch in the 9th inning of ballgames. And Papelbon's salary most certainly matters, seeing as they're just starting to pay 25 mil per season to a hobbled 1b and they're already maxing out their revenue. I.e., just because they were pissing away money on Lidge didn't mean they needed to turn right around and start pissing away money on Papelbon.I must say, this signing does leave a warm an fuzzy feeling in my heart as a Mets fan. Sure, we're a shambles but atleast Amaro seems intent on returning the Phils to a craptastic franchise sooner rather than later.

Even Mariano Rivera blows saves. And if you don't think there is a different mentality in the 9th inning both from the hitters and the pitchers, then I don't really know what to say. Maybe watch a game (not the Mets though, that would be more like torture) or listen to an interview from a closer after he gets a save (not the Mets again, they probably won't have many saved games).And LOL @ bringing up Howard. He wasn't know for his blazing speed or range in the field, so as a Philly fan, I'm not really worried about his injury. As far as returning the Phils to a craptastic franchise, all I have to say is: Halladay signed through 2014 and Lee signed through 2016. If the Phils extend Hamels, the Mets won't have an opportunity for the NL East until what, about 2017? The only way the Mets will get a chance to play in October is if they change the name of their stadium to October.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

4/50 is too much for any reliever. Nice first move by Cherington letting him walk and getting the pick(s).

ETA: And the Phillies do have a lot of money, and can take a bad deal like this easier than most, but they also have an offense that needs some pretty significant help.

 

[Daywalker]

Madson is not in Papplebon's class. Madson has one season as a closer under his belt. Papplebon has six. It's not even close to which is a safer bet. Paps at 4/50 is a bargain if Madson was offered a 4/44.

 

[Daywalker]

https://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN

The Phils and Papelbon have reached agreement sources tell CSNPhilly.com. Pending physical.

4/50 with a vesting option. Hmmm . . .http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/report_papelbon_2.html

I generally hate overpaying for a small number of high leverage innings. That said, this is the kind of move that a high payroll team like the Phillies can handle and 4/50 for Papelbon is better than 4/44 for Madson.

This is a horrible deal and how on Earth is Papelbon for 4/50 better than Madson for 4/44, both with vesting options and Paplebon being a type A restricted FA?I have an even lower opinion of Amaro now than I did a few days ago.

pap smear is better than madson. do you disagree with that?

I think they're both about the same. I don't see Papelbon ever returning to the dominance he once displayed, so I think they're both capable of elite seasons in relief at this point, but hardly particularly good bets to be consistently elite for the next 4 years.

Papelbon was dominant this past season.

 

[dparker713]

The Phils went with the guy they KNEW could handle the 9th inning instead of the guy they THOUGHT could handle the 9th. Madson was pretty good for Philly last year in the closer role but at the beginning of the season there was questions whether he could handle the closer role (as he failed miserably at it in previous attempts). And now there is some question whether he can repeat his previous season. For an extra 6M over 4 year, they must have thought it a safer play to go with the guy who had the track record. The money for Philly is irrelevant since they were paying Lidge 12M, they just alloted that to Papelbon. I would have been happy with either guy as I think they'll both be effective closers over the next couple of years.

The guy they KNEW could handle the 9th, when last seen was blowing a game upon which the entire Red Sox season depended. Not that there is some mythical quality which allows guys to pitch in the 9th inning of ballgames. And Papelbon's salary most certainly matters, seeing as they're just starting to pay 25 mil per season to a hobbled 1b and they're already maxing out their revenue. I.e., just because they were pissing away money on Lidge didn't mean they needed to turn right around and start pissing away money on Papelbon.I must say, this signing does leave a warm an fuzzy feeling in my heart as a Mets fan. Sure, we're a shambles but atleast Amaro seems intent on returning the Phils to a craptastic franchise sooner rather than later.

Even Mariano Rivera blows saves. And if you don't think there is a different mentality in the 9th inning both from the hitters and the pitchers, then I don't really know what to say. Maybe watch a game (not the Mets though, that would be more like torture) or listen to an interview from a closer after he gets a save (not the Mets again, they probably won't have many saved games).And LOL @ bringing up Howard. He wasn't know for his blazing speed or range in the field, so as a Philly fan, I'm not really worried about his injury. As far as returning the Phils to a craptastic franchise, all I have to say is: Halladay signed through 2014 and Lee signed through 2016. If the Phils extend Hamels, the Mets won't have an opportunity for the NL East until what, about 2017? The only way the Mets will get a chance to play in October is if they change the name of their stadium to October.

Yeah, when a team is down 3 runs in the 9th its so much more stressful than having a 4 run lead

 

[Billy Bats]

The only way the Mets will get a chance to play in October is if they change the name of their stadium to October.

 

[Thunderlips]

It's funny....a lot of the internet stat geeks in baseball seem to be more satisfied that their team is doing better payroll wise than actually winning the damn games. Since when did frugality and always building for tomorrow instead of winning for today become more important to the fan than winning? Some of this #### is laughable..."I'm happy that they got the pick instead of Papelbon"..." I'd rather have the first round pick than the All-Star player"...." I like seeing my team NOT spend money this year so they can NOT spend money next year in an effort next year to put together this perfect storm of prospects and "low rent", "career year having" veterans who sign for the league minimum so we can both compete on the field AND have bragging rights about how well our front office has done".

The fact is, Amaro wants to win now. He has a window with Halladay, Lee, Utley and Howard and is looking to take advantage of that. To that, he signed the most accomplished closer on the market. Who in their right mind turns over 8 innings of quality starts to INSERT "CONTRACT VALUE" CLOSER HERE? Papbelbon (as much as I dislike that #####) puts them in a better situation to win in that window. I realize that different teams have different financial constraints...and what works in Philly might not work in KC. But....Amaro is playing the cards he was dealt. He has a big market, a hot team and he's had a good enough farm system to get Lidge,Oswalt,Pence,Halladay and Lee. To think that he's not going to throw his weight around is dumb.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

I think closers are by far the most overrated position. I think the Phillies should have spent the cash on building an offense. But if the Phillies are going to dump a lot of money on the closer role, it's a lot smarter to pony up a couple extra million to get Papelbon. Is he the greatest closer of all time? No. Is he one of the best? Yes. He blew a crucial game. It happens.

 

[dparker713]

It's funny....a lot of the internet stat geeks in baseball seem to be more satisfied that their team is doing better payroll wise than actually winning the damn games. Since when did frugality and always building for tomorrow instead of winning for today become more important to the fan than winning? Some of this #### is laughable..."I'm happy that they got the pick instead of Papelbon"..." I'd rather have the first round pick than the All-Star player"...." I like seeing my team NOT spend money this year so they can NOT spend money next year in an effort next year to put together this perfect storm of prospects and "low rent", "career year having" veterans who sign for the league minimum so we can both compete on the field AND have bragging rights about how well our front office has done".

The fact is, Amaro wants to win now. He has a window with Halladay, Lee, Utley and Howard and is looking to take advantage of that. To that, he signed the most accomplished closer on the market. Who in their right mind turns over 8 innings of quality starts to INSERT "CONTRACT VALUE" CLOSER HERE? Papbelbon (as much as I dislike that #####) puts them in a better situation to win in that window. I realize that different teams have different financial constraints...and what works in Philly might not work in KC. But....Amaro is playing the cards he was dealt. He has a big market, a hot team and he's had a good enough farm system to get Lidge,Oswalt,Pence,Halladay and Lee. To think that he's not going to throw his weight around is dumb.

Well, if you look at the saves leaders for each team, at one point in the past two seasons that could describe the following guys - Motte, Kimbral, Feliz, Axford, Storen, Farnsworth, Nunez, Marmol, League, Chris Perez, and Jordan Walden. And this isn't about spending money or not spending money. This is about spending money wisely, and history has proven that multi-year deals for relievers are a bad idea

 

[Thunderlips]

It's funny....a lot of the internet stat geeks in baseball seem to be more satisfied that their team is doing better payroll wise than actually winning the damn games. Since when did frugality and always building for tomorrow instead of winning for today become more important to the fan than winning? Some of this #### is laughable..."I'm happy that they got the pick instead of Papelbon"..." I'd rather have the first round pick than the All-Star player"...." I like seeing my team NOT spend money this year so they can NOT spend money next year in an effort next year to put together this perfect storm of prospects and "low rent", "career year having" veterans who sign for the league minimum so we can both compete on the field AND have bragging rights about how well our front office has done".

The fact is, Amaro wants to win now. He has a window with Halladay, Lee, Utley and Howard and is looking to take advantage of that. To that, he signed the most accomplished closer on the market. Who in their right mind turns over 8 innings of quality starts to INSERT "CONTRACT VALUE" CLOSER HERE? Papbelbon (as much as I dislike that #####) puts them in a better situation to win in that window. I realize that different teams have different financial constraints...and what works in Philly might not work in KC. But....Amaro is playing the cards he was dealt. He has a big market, a hot team and he's had a good enough farm system to get Lidge,Oswalt,Pence,Halladay and Lee. To think that he's not going to throw his weight around is dumb.

Well, if you look at the saves leaders for each team, at one point in the past two seasons that could describe the following guys - Motte, Kimbral, Feliz, Axford, Storen, Farnsworth, Nunez, Marmol, League, Chris Perez, and Jordan Walden. And this isn't about spending money or not spending money. This is about spending money wisely, and history has proven that multi-year deals for relievers are a bad idea

That's fine. But how many of them have the same track record as Papelbon? How many have done it as long...or as effectively? He was the best reliever on the market....and when you build a team around starting pitching, the last think you want to marginalize that with a bunch of 9th inning blown saves. it strengthens the bullpen by keeping Bastardo where he was, at times, producing some of the most productive outings in the Majors.Just to be curious...what do you think Papelbon (or Madsen or Bell) should get?

ETA: And when you actually think about it....the laundry list of "top" relievers you've brought up doesn't really reinforce your argument as it shows how a player who has a proven track record in that position is gold. Sure...the Phils could have tried to catch lightning in a bottle with a no-name......but why take that chance?