Always love how ZM shows the formations as they actually played. Not sure how that lineup is considered defensive. The stupidity of Marcelo and Hulk being left alone on the left both attacking is incredible.
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***Official 2014 World Cup Thread*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter NewlyRetired
- Start date
Short Corner
Footballguy
Awkward to compare basketball when the US is the only country that considers the Olympics > WCs.
The Gator
Footballguy
ld:
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
There's enough historical and current connections among these three teams that there will be good angles either way, but I do like the fact that Maradona played against Germany in two finals and Messi may get the chance to win a title against Germany. Holland-German history as well as Robben against his Bayern teams would add some flavor as well. For today's game, I'm sure the network will be showing Bergkamp's goal against Argentina in '98 a few times - one of the most famous in WC history I think.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Fernandinho and Luis Gustavo shouldn't have been playing together. One or the other is fine and provides necessary defensive cover, but there was no link between defense and attack, as was noted in the article.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I did not. I think only the final was aired in 1986 if memory serves on NBC (maybe one other game). If it was on a Spanish station at the time, I don't think I got it in my area.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
The game against Portugal when they had a combined 4 or 5 red cards and something like 20 yellows? That was fun, would make for a very entertaining final.
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Insoxicated
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El Floppo
Footballguy
strange.
we didn't have any kind of fancy cable back then... I must've either gone to see the games at pubs (that allowed teenagers in) or watched them on Univisionish stations. I distinctly remember watching him eviscerate England live- the initial move he pulled to turn and beat two players before rampaging through the rest of the English defense had me falling out of my seat. I don't seem to recall much else about that game
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Sebowski
Footballguy
The Gator
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Watching the replay after I sobered up, I was surprised to find that even without as much of the ball, I thought Germany still had more moments that were closer to real chances before the goal. Most notably, the shot that hit Kroos in the back.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Man Kroos's passing chart is insane. 66 of 71. All but one miss in the attacking third. And the majority of the passes at least intermediate length (almost no backward and horizontal passes either). And he scored two goals. Pretty, pretty good.
Sand
Footballguy
Given the expected lines I'd bet either Argentina or Netherlands. Brazil was just awful - Germany isn't *that* good. And there may be some letdown after winning that blowout.[icon] said:
Way, way better.NewlyRetired said:
Read this? Fascinating read on why he is, far and away, the best player currently out there. He (IMO) holds up really, really well if you want to talk about "best of all time", as well.NewlyRetired said:
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Makes one wonder whether Bayern and Real have already agreed to a fee for Kroos. Its hard to imagine him going for much less than Oezil money at this point.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
The Kansas Comet
Footballguy
That match and Italy's match against Brazil in that same tournament basically instilled a life-long hate of Italian football in me when I was a boy. I was crushed when that '82 Brazil team went out. Still mad that Zico got his jersey torn in the box and nothing was called. Of course, if that team could have played defense for 15 minutes in a row, they would have probably won by three goals that day.This game is infamous in soccer lore.WTF?! Had never heard about this before -- must've been fun to watch.
The best part was that Gentile got a yellow in the first minute and then just hacked away for the rest of the game. Maradona got a yellow for complaining to the ref about constant infringement.
Twas a different game back then.
Yesterday's match was shocking because you never see seven goals scored in the knockout stages of the World Cup, let alone against the host nation, and certainly never against Brazil. However, in terms of talent, it isn't shocking to see that Germany handled Brazil and knocked them out. Which Brazilian players truly rate among the top 3 or 5 in the world at their position? Neymar? Perhaps. Thiago Silva? Probably. But it is pretty damning of the state of Brazil's talent that Fred, Hulk, and Jo are the three best options up top. Defensively it wasn't much better. Dani Alves gets benched for an aging Maicon. Hell, I nearly passed out when I was looking at the roster at the beginning of the tournament and saw that both Maxwell and Henrique made the squad.
And in the midfield, where was the creativity? Oscar? How many times this tournament did Brazil get into the attacking third and do nothing but either pull it back out because they couldn't pick out a pass or blast a shot into a defender already waiting? And this team also lacked a hard man in the midfield to keep things in order such as Gilberto Silva or Dunga.
All in all, you have to wonder if this squad would have made it out of the group stage if this tournament was played somewhere besides Brazil. They were fortunate to get the PK in their first match, and Mexico played them pretty even in the second. Cameroon gave them some trouble early on before being overrun.
It was sad to see Brazil's mystique shattered so brutally yesterday. Jogo bonito died a while ago, but that yellow jersey still had an aura about it. But after seeing Germany thrash them so easily, treating them like a youth team, I feel as if Brazil has dropped down a notch from the lofty status they had to one where they are on equal footing with countries like Germany, Italy, and Argentina. Before that, even though they didn't win every match, there was something special about the Brazilian national time. Right now, the only thing special about them is their margin of defeat.
I hope Argentina gets through today, because I would prefer the record of no European team winning the WC in the Americas remain intact (hey, my dad is Chilean - definite South American bias here) and I want Messi to win so that Argentinean fans give him the credit he has deserved from them prior to this. To do this, they need to play like they did against Belgium: sit back and invite the Dutch on to them and counterattack with the available space once they force a turnover. Losing Di Maria hurts considerably, but they still have the ability to get the result. Basically, they have to play a bit like the '90 team, though with less cynicism. If they try to attack and possess the ball, their offense stagnates and their back line gets exposed to counterattacks that it can't handle. And if Argentina loses and Messi gets grief from his home fans about it, I think FIFA should initiate a rule where a soccer god who is unduly criticized by his nation's fans due to their unrealistic expectations and Maradona worship is immediately eligible to play for the United States.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Its easy to bury Brazil, but its not really fair to compare a team that lost its best player to teams that didn't. How good is the 2002 team if Ronaldo goes down? They still had a lot of talent, but enough to replace 8 goals?
On reputation, Dani Alves is one of the best RBs in the game. Same with David Luiz at CB. And Brazil had respected players in Dante and Henrique backing him up.
If Holland wins today, Ron Vlaar is going to start the World Cup final. Johnny Heitinga started for Holland in the final in 2010 at the same position if memory serves. Dirk Kuyt could very well be starting LB despite the fact that he's 110 years old and not a LB (and I love Dirk Kuyt).
We all thought that Felipao had the formula right for Brazil. Keep it congested in the middle and play through Neymar. Frankly, I had thought that he had admirably leashed Marcelo through the tournament (or that Marcelo had gracefully aged out of the kind of shockers you saw yesterday).
On reputation, Dani Alves is one of the best RBs in the game. Same with David Luiz at CB. And Brazil had respected players in Dante and Henrique backing him up.
If Holland wins today, Ron Vlaar is going to start the World Cup final. Johnny Heitinga started for Holland in the final in 2010 at the same position if memory serves. Dirk Kuyt could very well be starting LB despite the fact that he's 110 years old and not a LB (and I love Dirk Kuyt).
We all thought that Felipao had the formula right for Brazil. Keep it congested in the middle and play through Neymar. Frankly, I had thought that he had admirably leashed Marcelo through the tournament (or that Marcelo had gracefully aged out of the kind of shockers you saw yesterday).
El Floppo
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
The Kansas Comet
Footballguy
His performance against Belgium in the next match was equally outstanding. I watched the 30 for 30 about Maradona recently and they had a ton of great footage from the '86 World Cup. Seeing that again reminded me just how otherworldly he was in Mexico. He was so amazing guys couldn't even foul him though they tried. I never saw Pele but my father and grandfather did, as well as Garrincha and many other wonderful players, and they both said that Dieguito's performance in '86 was the best they ever saw by one player at any World Cup.El Floppo said:strange.
we didn't have any kind of fancy cable back then... I must've either gone to see the games at pubs (that allowed teenagers in) or watched them on Univisionish stations. I distinctly remember watching him eviscerate England live- the initial move he pulled to turn and beat two players before rampaging through the rest of the English defense had me falling out of my seat. I don't seem to recall much else about that game
The Kansas Comet
Footballguy
The 2002 team had Rivaldo, Kaka, and Ronaldinho, three players who had won or would go on to win World Player of the Year at least once. Could that squad have replaced Ronaldo? Probably not, but at least that team had outstanding options. This team did not. Given those circumstances, the tactics were correct. It's just amazing to think that a Brazil squad would be forced by a lack of attacking talent to play that way.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
This is a team that had more than enough talent to win the WC, especially in front of home crowds. Maybe the Silva suspension started the landslide: Scolari thinks he needs more defense to cover for his absence, Brazil's lack of skill in the midfield plays right into Germany's hands in terms of their pressing game, Marcelo feels like he has to over-compensate and join the attack more, and all of these things go wrong, not to mention Germany has a pretty good day and several of Brazil's more or less check out mid-game.
I think there's probably an ideal balance for Brazil that's more positive than what we saw yesterday and a team that's all precious short passes and trying to walk the ball into the net, but yesterday wasn't it. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens between now and 2016.
I think there's probably an ideal balance for Brazil that's more positive than what we saw yesterday and a team that's all precious short passes and trying to walk the ball into the net, but yesterday wasn't it. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens between now and 2016.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
The USMNT played very hard and admirably, given the talent disparity. Yesterday's game should be required viewing for the "How can you be satisfied with the US losing to Belgium and Germany" crowd.We lost Jozi and we only lost to Germany by 1 goal.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I liked Barney Ronay's take in the Guardian today which, despite its hyperbolic headline, was actually a pretty nuanced look at how Brazil is facing some difficult football related problems without being hysterical about what yesterday meant.
sporthenry
Footballguy
Sure, but then it also plays into the bunkering style that we were supposed to be breaking out of. As some said, they were happy to see Brazil lose for playing negative football but if anything the result probably justifies the Greece's of the world b/c at worst, they aren't embarrassed off the world stage.The USMNT played very hard and admirably, given the talent disparity. Yesterday's game should be required viewing for the "How can you be satisfied with the US losing to Belgium and Germany" crowd.We lost Jozi and we only lost to Germany by 1 goal.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I'd also be worthwhile consideration for the Wynaldas and Donovans out there who complained that the US played too defensively.The USMNT played very hard and admirably, given the talent disparity. Yesterday's game should be required viewing for the "How can you be satisfied with the US losing to Belgium and Germany" crowd.We lost Jozi and we only lost to Germany by 1 goal.
El Floppo
Footballguy
it's beating a horse, but for me the frustrating thing about the US v Germany game was that I know the US capable of far more than they showed. Slightly less so against Belgium... but only slightly.The USMNT played very hard and admirably, given the talent disparity. Yesterday's game should be required viewing for the "How can you be satisfied with the US losing to Belgium and Germany" crowd.We lost Jozi and we only lost to Germany by 1 goal.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Brazilians are one of several groups of fans who claim they would rather lose than win by playing ugly. I guess you can say Brazil was playing "negative football" in this tournament because Scolari favored a defensive-oriented midfield, but it sure wasn't bunkering or playing a counter-attacking game, at least as I understand those terms. When Brazil lost possession in midfield, it seemed Germany almost always had equal or better numbers attacking, the the Brazilian back line was not really a line at all, more a random scattering of unconnected, disorganized individuals.Sure, but then it also plays into the bunkering style that we were supposed to be breaking out of. As some said, they were happy to see Brazil lose for playing negative football but if anything the result probably justifies the Greece's of the world b/c at worst, they aren't embarrassed off the world stage.The USMNT played very hard and admirably, given the talent disparity. Yesterday's game should be required viewing for the "How can you be satisfied with the US losing to Belgium and Germany" crowd.We lost Jozi and we only lost to Germany by 1 goal.
The Gator
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I have no beef with the performance against Germany. Sheer pragmatism demanded an approach that eliminated the worst case scenario, which was a curb-stomping like we saw yesterday.it's beating a horse, but for me the frustrating thing about the US v Germany game was that I know the US capable of far more than they showed. Slightly less so against Belgium... but only slightly.The USMNT played very hard and admirably, given the talent disparity. Yesterday's game should be required viewing for the "How can you be satisfied with the US losing to Belgium and Germany" crowd.We lost Jozi and we only lost to Germany by 1 goal.
I don't think the performance against Belgium was pragmatic. At least not in the second half. Belgium had more chances in 10 minutes than Germany had all game against the US. So I found the Belgium performance much more disappointing. Particularly because I felt that Belgium had vulnerabilities to be exploited and the US's last desperate push showed those vulnerabilities.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Did anyone post these? These are pretty good.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I've got my 2006 Holland jersey in the car for a meeting at the bar if I can get away, but honestly don't have a care either way. Just hoping for a good one.
But I'll go ahead and predict a Dirk Kuyt hattrick for you ...
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Does the US have one player that even makes Germany's 23?it's beating a horse, but for me the frustrating thing about the US v Germany game was that I know the US capable of far more than they showed.The USMNT played very hard and admirably, given the talent disparity. Yesterday's game should be required viewing for the "How can you be satisfied with the US losing to Belgium and Germany" crowd.We lost Jozi and we only lost to Germany by 1 goal.
Sebowski
Footballguy
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TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
My prediction for today's match is Netherlands 7-1 Argentina.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
btw - wearing an XXL Holland jersey gives one the feeling of a human road block of sorts. I feel like I could direct airport traffic in a heavy fog.
Sebowski
Footballguy
we both picked Kuyt.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
"Hey, wanna see Klaas Jan Huntelaar's 'O Face?'"
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