Chadstroma
Footballguy
A not so wise man once said... "but your list of excuses was still pretty impressive"... stop hedging and go away.
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Official 2019 Oakland (?) Raiders Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
- Start date
Be more cool.Chadstroma said:
Both of you drop it please and back to keeping this 100% about football and not other posters.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Lets get this back on track. Gruden's play calling was iffy today. I still have a hard time watching Carr but his WRs are not good which doesn't help. The Raiders are drafting a QB in 2020.
ICON211
Footballguy
I think you're right. Carr was horrible today and overall this season i would say he's been just ok. The high completion percentage is largely due to most of them being short passes. If Tua falls far enough I think he will definitely be considered.
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Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
This one hurt, NGL.
I didn't think we were going to win - this team is so wracked by injury and lacking consistency and still committing so many untimely and stupid penalties that we are not at a level of a playoff team. I had no illusions there.
But hard to not be misty-eyed at what could have been if we did win -- first in division, in control of our destiny. It would have been fleeting anyway, given the above. But there would still have been some hope that somehow, some way, we could still find a way to continue to rise above.
Welp, so much for that.
We aren't there yet. We just aren't that team, not this year.
But given all the positives I've seen this year, and still see from a lot of the guys out there, I still have something I haven't had in past years when hopes are dashed.
And that's hope for the future. With some luck in the health department, and some signings/draft picks to shore up some remaining weakness, this team is going to take that step next year and be the contenders we've seen flashes of this year.
I didn't think we were going to win - this team is so wracked by injury and lacking consistency and still committing so many untimely and stupid penalties that we are not at a level of a playoff team. I had no illusions there.
But hard to not be misty-eyed at what could have been if we did win -- first in division, in control of our destiny. It would have been fleeting anyway, given the above. But there would still have been some hope that somehow, some way, we could still find a way to continue to rise above.
Welp, so much for that.
We aren't there yet. We just aren't that team, not this year.
But given all the positives I've seen this year, and still see from a lot of the guys out there, I still have something I haven't had in past years when hopes are dashed.
And that's hope for the future. With some luck in the health department, and some signings/draft picks to shore up some remaining weakness, this team is going to take that step next year and be the contenders we've seen flashes of this year.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
This is silly talk.
Gruden's roots are deep in the west coast offense. His system has evolved to not really be a WCO but this is definitely the decendent of the same offense that took a journeyman QB and made him a Pro Bowl, All Pro, MVP QB. One big difference is that Carr doesn't have Brown and Rice to throw to. No matter who the QB is, this is much of what we will see.
68% 4,689 passing yards 26 TD's, 10 INT 97.3 rating.
68% 4,049 passing yards 19 TD's, 10 INT 93.9 rating.
One of those is an MVP season from Gannon and the other is Carr's last season.
Gruden will push it up the field but he wants to run the ball and hit short passes to create plays them take shots. It is harder to do that when we dont have a true #1 WR.
Today's INT's: one to me looked like Waller did not make a sharp enough cut... whether that was his fault or Carr expected it for some reason, I don't know. The other was a dang good defensive play that he took a gamble on and it paid off in his break.
SDJohnny
Footballguy
Raiders have $73 Million in cap money next year and no sale tax state to pull in free agents. We can all see the talent infusion that this Rookie class has given us and we have two first rounders for next draft. I'm not ready to move on from Carr. We need a #1 WR, but I have hope for next year.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Agreed. I think some people will allow the emotions of this whooping to go into the sky is falling mode.
This year is different. Even over our playoff year a few years back. It isn't going to take a ton of new playere to bring in to be competitive. We have youth and upside all over the place. We have a real culture in place. We have a real talent evaluator who already delivered a great rookie class and has two first round picks and another 3 more in the top 100 selections.
These dud games is really chalked up to me in that youth. The penalties and mistakes are hallmarks of young players. More than that, this team plays with it's heart on it's sleeve. It thrives and dies on momentum. Youth tends to get ruled by the emotions while vets csn fight through momentum. This team, especially our defense, is all about momentum because they are playing all our with their hearts in it. When things go bad, their hearts sink and you can see the team level of play sink along with it.
I'm seeing Tua fall out of the top 10 in early mocks. If he's there I think we have to take him and let him red shirt year 1 if needed for rehab.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Count me in the camp of the sky is not falling. I have done a 180 this season and am a believer. This team was hit harder than other teams this season when it comes to losing starters. That's not an excuse. It's reality. The team has a lot of good, young players that should be better in 2020 and has plenty of early draft picks. The future is bright.
Oddly enough, I started to get a feeling things were going to go south after the Cincy win. A 0-10 club with a rookie QB should never be able to come into a playoff caliber team's house and give them all they can handle.
I don't know guys, I feel like the defense was playing well before things got out of hand. Jacobs had plenty of room to run early. I feel like Carr is regressing and I'm not sure what's changed over the past few weeks. He really hasn't any stability at WR all season. He just seems to be locking on to his receivers and DBs are picking up on it. I'll always support Carr, he puts in the work, he's a leader and a winner at heart. But unfortunately we all have our limitations. Look around the NFL, dynamic-super athletic QBs are taking over. I know everyone thought that the NFL would change when Vick took the league by storm 20 years ago. But I think this time, it really might happen. I do think it might be time to at least start looking for the QB of the future for the Raiders.
I don't know guys, I feel like the defense was playing well before things got out of hand. Jacobs had plenty of room to run early. I feel like Carr is regressing and I'm not sure what's changed over the past few weeks. He really hasn't any stability at WR all season. He just seems to be locking on to his receivers and DBs are picking up on it. I'll always support Carr, he puts in the work, he's a leader and a winner at heart. But unfortunately we all have our limitations. Look around the NFL, dynamic-super athletic QBs are taking over. I know everyone thought that the NFL would change when Vick took the league by storm 20 years ago. But I think this time, it really might happen. I do think it might be time to at least start looking for the QB of the future for the Raiders.
Not trying to be a jerk or saying you are wrong.....but do you have a link to back this up because I think there are several teams that might disagree? I was just wondering where you found the data to back this up? There are many teams that have lost starters.
Quick search found this at "NFL-Man-Games Lost"
NFL Week 12 Games Missed Due to Injury and Injury Metrics November 27, 2019
NFL Injury Data Summary: The most injured teams in the NFL through Week 12 are the Washington Redskins and Seattle Seahawks. The Los Angeles Chargers and Houston Texans are most impacted by injuries to players on their team.
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DocHolliday
Footballguy
I have no data and it's my opinion. The raiders lost one of the best WRs in the NFL just as the season started. The timing was horrible and no team is getting close to replacing AB. The Raiders lost Carrs security blanket a couple of games ago,. They lost their starting safety during the first game and lost the other starting safety a couple of weeks ago.
They also lost their best LB and QB on D after 4 games. Losing Lee at LB also hurt a thin LB Corp.. Key is the best pure pass rushing DE and he's been out for weeks. Even losing Harris as a kick returner was felt yesterday since his replacement fumbled.
Stats may not indicate that the Raiders have lost the most games by starters but they have lost a lot of key players. Good teams can overcome the loss of some good players. The Raiders were an average team that were never overcoming the loss of so many key players. The losses are going to pile up as this season winds down.
no worries....you said it wasn't an excuse it was "reality" so I assumed you had something to back it up and I couldn't find it....I realize the Raiders have had some injuries, no doubt....(I can't however include AB as part of the conversation as he could still be on your team as it was the Raiders choice to acquire and ultimately release him)......but as mentioned many teams have injuries/key injuries and could probably create list of their own like yours above....they have their own realities....and their fan base probably thinks the same and has the same "opinion"....certain guys are irreplaceable no matter what and having the depth to overcome injuries as best you can is a big part of having a good organization.....the Raiders do appear to be headed in the right direction (QB aside) even if the record doesn't indicate it....
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I agree with Ref - what happened with Brown sucks but he already had issues when they signed him. I too think they have shown a ton of improvement this season and they have a ton of high draft picks to boot. It seems to more apparent that Carr will most likely be a middle of the road QB. Would he have progressed more with Antonio Brown - possibly but I don't think he would be confused with the upper echelon QBs. I don't know if he could be a great game manager if the Raiders get a killer D but the running game and TE so I agree with the sentiment that they will draft a QB in the first round in 2020 with one of their picks. It looks like the Mack trade will be really good for them in the long run.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
And pass up a real #1 WR, a good CB or LB? No thank you. Carr can do the job and do the job well. He may not be HOF level but he is Pro Bowl level. We saw only a few years ago when we went into the playoffs that it WAS Carr that got us there. After he went down the team was nothing. And that was with Cooper and Mack.
No, get Carr a #1 WR. Williams will flourish as a #2. Renfrow was really coming into his spot. Waller is an All Pro TE. We have the offensive line. We have Jacobs. Carr can do run this offense and having a real #1 will open things up for it. Freaking silly to spend the draft capital to start over again with a new QB when we need to spend these draft picks on getting play makers who can take us from playing good to being contenders.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Ok, AB was a pest in Pittsburgh but there was no reason to expect him to go into full looney tooney mode like he did. If he wasn't bat poo crazy, his talent would be a HUGE difference maker in this offense. It would open everything up. And this offense would be top 5 offense in the league without doubt. Carr is not the problem. Never has been. We need one thing on offense- a top tier WR that is a true #1. We need a top tier CB and a playmaking LB. I have no interest in spending one of our 1st rounders on a QB to replace something that isn't broken when we have real needs that will make a real difference on this team.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
I agree with most of this. Get the WR. Maybe 2.
But also get a QB. Because elite QB's get raise the level of play around them and Carr cannot do that. I was sooooo hoping Burrow would have an average season, fly under the radar, and the Raiders would draft him in the 3rd/4th round. They need to look there for a guy to take a look at. None of this Nathan Peterman garbage or Glennon hanging-on, go get a future guy. Fromm is likely gone by then but take a look at Eason or Jordan Love if they slide or a gamer like Ehlinger later. They may not be elite either, but he's not gonna cost $25M a year. Maybe we strike gold.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
How do you not include AB as a loss in 2019? I was totally against the trade but AB forcing his way off of the Raiders for greener pastures in NE was a huge set back. The Raiders had a true WR1 and then had to move T Williams (a decent WR2) into that role days before the first game. Look at all the moves the Raiders made at WR due to losing AB. Renfroe turned out to be a nice slot WR after a few games but he too was lost a couple of games ago. The Raiders losing AB would be like Houston losing Hopkins.
None of it really matters since the Raiders are not a great team. They would be in the playoff hunt had a few things broke positively instead of negativity but that is how it works. Injuries do happen and great teams overcome. The D was going to be an issue all season due to the LBs and lack of pass rush talent.
we might need to put things in perspective a little.....being a "Pro Bowler" doesn't mean a ton....Trevor freaking Siemien was a "pro bowler" a couple years ago.....so many guys bow out of that game that they start sliding down the list and your average joe becomes a "pro bowler"....I think Carr has gone twice, both times as a replacement....All Pro is really the only thing that matters there...
yeah the year he got hurt right before the playoffs he was having a nice season.....was it only Carr that got you there....?....hard to say, but the team being "nothing" without Carr is tough because they ended up having to play McGloin and then Cook I think.....thats a pretty steep drop off that even good teams might not be able to overcome.....
I'm not a huge stat guy.....more of an eye ball test type of guy....looking to see that "it" factor and if a guy has "it" or not....you kinda know it when you see it....and I guess for me, Carr seems to be just average......he doesn't really seem to elevate the guys around him like some of the top QB's do, and to be honest, he seems to disappear and play pretty crappy when you really need him to play pretty good....he might be OK as Option B if the Raiders decide that Option A is running the ball, but still at some point you need him to make a play and "win" the game for you and I just don't see it in the big games......like yesterday.....instead of picking the team up when they need it, he throws a couple bad picks that help swing the game the other way....not sure Carr has the makeup to go toe to toe with some of the big guys......there are probably 12-14 guys I would take right now ahead of him moving forward....just my
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I don't know....I guess I don't include AB because he could still be on your team but the team felt he wasn't good enough to keep around....wasn't "worth it".....now I understand with everything that has happened, that sounds pretty simplistic, but it is "technically" true....self inflicted wounds are a little different then losing a starter due to injury, etc...in the list of "non excuses" above, his kind of has an asterisk next to it.....
for the record.....they are still in the hunt and would have leap frogged KC and have been in control had they won yesterday.....but Carr has kind of pooped the bed the last two weeks when he was needed the most....
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Fair - no full looney toons but he did quit on his team and had character issues. i was thinking more along the lines of Terell Owens or Brandon Marshall. The talent is obviously game changing but Pittsburgh would probably not have let him go if he didn't become a cancer.
I disagree with you about not drafting a QB. Carr is decent but I don't think he will ever be a top 10 QB even with a #1 WR. It's too bad Cooper didn't pan out.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I don't know how many games you have seen but he is actually pretty clutch. Whether it was throwing to Crabtree a few years back like in that playoff run or this year. They either win with a relatively close game which takes a few good balls or crumble and get blown out. Carr is very accurate. He fits the Gruden system. He can also throw deep but hard to do that when you do not have a true #1 that D needs to focus on.we might need to put things in perspective a little.....being a "Pro Bowler" doesn't mean a ton....Trevor freaking Siemien was a "pro bowler" a couple years ago.....so many guys bow out of that game that they start sliding down the list and your average joe becomes a "pro bowler"....I think Carr has gone twice, both times as a replacement....All Pro is really the only thing that matters there...
yeah the year he got hurt right before the playoffs he was having a nice season.....was it only Carr that got you there....?....hard to say, but the team being "nothing" without Carr is tough because they ended up having to play McGloin and then Cook I think.....thats a pretty steep drop off that even good teams might not be able to overcome.....
I'm not a huge stat guy.....more of an eye ball test type of guy....looking to see that "it" factor and if a guy has "it" or not....you kinda know it when you see it....and I guess for me, Carr seems to be just average......he doesn't really seem to elevate the guys around him like some of the top QB's do, and to be honest, he seems to disappear and play pretty crappy when you really need him to play pretty good....he might be OK as Option B if the Raiders decide that Option A is running the ball, but still at some point you need him to make a play and "win" the game for you and I just don't see it in the big games......like yesterday.....instead of picking the team up when they need it, he throws a couple bad picks that help swing the game the other way....not sure Carr has the makeup to go toe to toe with some of the big guys......there are probably 12-14 guys I would take right now ahead of him moving forward....just my
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Did you follow the AB super drama at all? The Raiders bent over backwards for him and he went either total looney or purposefully torpedoed things or both. The Raiders had no way of expecting what happened to happen and didn't do anything wrong in trying to make it work.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
The Jets was a bad performance. Again though... I see it as bad momentum that this young team can't break.
This week, mo again but Carr's INT's, one was a really good D play where the defender guessed and took a gamble that paid off on that guess. The other to me looked like Waller drifted on his route and was out of position to where Carr expected him to be.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Yea, we all knew AB wasn't a model citizen but his talent level for a third... yea, that is a gamble I would do again. We rolled the dice amd it came up snake eyes. It happens.
The Patriot do this ALL the time and don't get called on it because they still win. Also, to be fair, they mostly sign in FA with a discount. But for every Moss there are several Ochocunco or AB's.
Ed Wood
Footballguy
Lotta good posts as always. Always gives me food for thought and makes me say, "I didn't think of that!"
Here's my quick take on the Raiders generally and Carr specifically after a pair of 31-point losses:
* The Raiders probably weren't as good as their 6-4 record indicated. They had a -25 point differential at that point and now it's ballooned near 90.
But unlike the 2016 Raiders, this team wasn't succeeding with smoke and mirrors and most of the breaks going their way. No, there's a firm foundation here. The last two weeks have just exposed a few more cracks in it.
* Carr, however, is a different story. Obviously when the team itself is hitting on most or all phases, he can look solid and sometimes almost great. But as Stinkin' Ref put it, he hasn't shown he can put a team on his back and lead them to a victory when the chips are down and most phases aren't working--especially in a cold, nasty road game with the crowd giving the visitors hell. In fact, he's often making things worse.
To those who say, "Well, what about 2016?" I'd posit he wasn't as good as that season would indicate. He hasn't come close to replicating that season at all. BUT he also wasn't as bad as it seemed he was in 2017.
But IMO he's not elite and I don't think he ever will be. Gonna date myself here, but Carr gives me a Jay Schroeder/Marc Wilson vibe in that he can't go the three or four games necessary in the playoffs without shooting himself and his team in the foot. He doesn't have the moxie (yikes, there's a word I haven't used in a long time) that Snake Stabler, Rich Gannon and, to a lesser extent, Jim Plunkett had. (I know, I know, Plunkett could look awkward and at times even comical but ya can't argue with two Super Bowl wins.)
Stabler/Gannon/Plunkett were guys who, in their prime, you didn't worry about where the ball was going when it left their hand--unlike Schroeder and Wilson and about everybody else the Raiders have put out on the field since the turn of the century. And now I put Carr in that latter camp.
Good coaching can bring out the best in Carr but I'm not sure he can sustain that "best" stretch for three or four games if (I mean "when") the Raiders reach the playoffs. An ill-advised pick, a critical throw short of the chains on third down, a missed open receiver, these are all landmines I don't think Carr will ever consistently navigate against elite teams for a sustained stretch of games.
The 2020 draft will indeed be interesting.
Here's my quick take on the Raiders generally and Carr specifically after a pair of 31-point losses:
* The Raiders probably weren't as good as their 6-4 record indicated. They had a -25 point differential at that point and now it's ballooned near 90.
But unlike the 2016 Raiders, this team wasn't succeeding with smoke and mirrors and most of the breaks going their way. No, there's a firm foundation here. The last two weeks have just exposed a few more cracks in it.
* Carr, however, is a different story. Obviously when the team itself is hitting on most or all phases, he can look solid and sometimes almost great. But as Stinkin' Ref put it, he hasn't shown he can put a team on his back and lead them to a victory when the chips are down and most phases aren't working--especially in a cold, nasty road game with the crowd giving the visitors hell. In fact, he's often making things worse.
To those who say, "Well, what about 2016?" I'd posit he wasn't as good as that season would indicate. He hasn't come close to replicating that season at all. BUT he also wasn't as bad as it seemed he was in 2017.
But IMO he's not elite and I don't think he ever will be. Gonna date myself here, but Carr gives me a Jay Schroeder/Marc Wilson vibe in that he can't go the three or four games necessary in the playoffs without shooting himself and his team in the foot. He doesn't have the moxie (yikes, there's a word I haven't used in a long time) that Snake Stabler, Rich Gannon and, to a lesser extent, Jim Plunkett had. (I know, I know, Plunkett could look awkward and at times even comical but ya can't argue with two Super Bowl wins.)
Stabler/Gannon/Plunkett were guys who, in their prime, you didn't worry about where the ball was going when it left their hand--unlike Schroeder and Wilson and about everybody else the Raiders have put out on the field since the turn of the century. And now I put Carr in that latter camp.
Good coaching can bring out the best in Carr but I'm not sure he can sustain that "best" stretch for three or four games if (I mean "when") the Raiders reach the playoffs. An ill-advised pick, a critical throw short of the chains on third down, a missed open receiver, these are all landmines I don't think Carr will ever consistently navigate against elite teams for a sustained stretch of games.
The 2020 draft will indeed be interesting.
follow it....sure did....and I agree they did a lot and didn't expect things to ever escalate that far....and I didn't say they did anything wrong.....not sure if there were other internal options they could have explored in lieu of an outright release (longer internal suspension or something, etc).....but at the end of the day.....they didn't work it out with him and they let him go...don't get me wrong....31 other teams probably do the same thing.....except AB maybe doesn't pull the same type of shenanigans with other clubs that he really wanted to be a part of.....not sure he ever really wanted to be a Raider, so his antics were amplified in Oakland.....
DocHolliday
Footballguy
AB went nuts to make sure that he was released from the Raiders. Obviously, the Raiders wanted him on the team just as the Patriots would love to have him. The trade was a gamble but nobody saw the level of craziness coming from AB. Losing the best player on the team days before the season starts is a huge loss. The Colts are a good example with the loss of Luck. The team has been without TY for a few games as well and Indy is fading fast. I think I just made points for you though. Indy may have lost the most player talent this season.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I am going to refer to my earlier post. If you think Carr is not a franchise QB then you think Gannon was not either. I posted earlier Gannon's MVP season stats and Carr's last year's season stats. They are nearly the same.
Let's look at this year's stats. With no true #1 WR, with our best WR having missed time, now missing our promising rookie WR and relying heavily on TE's and RB's like no other offense is or needs to....
Carr is 14th in passing yards. Only Brees and Tannehill (what?) have better completion %. Carr knock his % percentage because it is all short passes. His average is better than Brees and at 7.7 is also better than Goff, Rodgers, Minshew, Ryan, Allen, Mayfield, Brissett, Darnold, and brace yourself.... Brady. Among others.
Again, all of this when we desperately need a true #1. We want to spend a 1st on a QB? I mean, we could get a Mayfield.... oh wait... Carr is outperforming Mayfield while Mayfield has an embarrassment of riches. What are the chances a first round QB is going to be better than Carr? Not exactly a lock. Let's look at the the last 10 years of 1st round QB's:
2009: Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman
2010: Bradford, Tebow
2011: Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder
2012: Luck, Griffin, Tannehill, Weeden
2013: Manuel
2014: Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater
2015: Winston, Marriota
2016: Goff, Wentz, Lynch
2017: Trubisky, Mahomes, Watson
2018: Mayfield, Darnold, Allen, Rosen, Jackson
2019: Murray, Jones, Haskins
I would much rather give him a true #1 that plays like a true #1 for the first time. The nearest thing he had was Cooper and for whatever reason it took him going to Dallas to start playing like a true #1. I would also like the other pick to go towards an impact defensive player at Corner or LB or if a great DT or DE fell to us. Spend most of our time on D and if there is a quality QB that happens to fall that Mayock loves... ok, great, go for it. But let's invest into the players we KNOW we need and not hope to land the next Mahomes or Jackson because if we invest one of those 1st's in another Manuel or Ponder.... we are setting ourselves back for no reason at all.
Let's look at this year's stats. With no true #1 WR, with our best WR having missed time, now missing our promising rookie WR and relying heavily on TE's and RB's like no other offense is or needs to....
Carr is 14th in passing yards. Only Brees and Tannehill (what?) have better completion %. Carr knock his % percentage because it is all short passes. His average is better than Brees and at 7.7 is also better than Goff, Rodgers, Minshew, Ryan, Allen, Mayfield, Brissett, Darnold, and brace yourself.... Brady. Among others.
Again, all of this when we desperately need a true #1. We want to spend a 1st on a QB? I mean, we could get a Mayfield.... oh wait... Carr is outperforming Mayfield while Mayfield has an embarrassment of riches. What are the chances a first round QB is going to be better than Carr? Not exactly a lock. Let's look at the the last 10 years of 1st round QB's:
2009: Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman
2010: Bradford, Tebow
2011: Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder
2012: Luck, Griffin, Tannehill, Weeden
2013: Manuel
2014: Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater
2015: Winston, Marriota
2016: Goff, Wentz, Lynch
2017: Trubisky, Mahomes, Watson
2018: Mayfield, Darnold, Allen, Rosen, Jackson
2019: Murray, Jones, Haskins
I would much rather give him a true #1 that plays like a true #1 for the first time. The nearest thing he had was Cooper and for whatever reason it took him going to Dallas to start playing like a true #1. I would also like the other pick to go towards an impact defensive player at Corner or LB or if a great DT or DE fell to us. Spend most of our time on D and if there is a quality QB that happens to fall that Mayock loves... ok, great, go for it. But let's invest into the players we KNOW we need and not hope to land the next Mahomes or Jackson because if we invest one of those 1st's in another Manuel or Ponder.... we are setting ourselves back for no reason at all.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Josh Jacobs has been playing with a fractures shoulder since WK7.
I mean, football players are tough, and there are degrees of fractures and solid pain management in the NFL.
But to play such a violent game, at a position where you are absolutely getting pounded and hit and tackled from all angles, I can't believe how nails Jacobs is playing through this, and playing though this so well.
Also have to wonder given where the Raiders are if they don't start shutting him down. We're not technically out of playoff contention, but it's not as if we're confidently in it either, and there is the future to think of. Not sure how this injury can be exacerbated or not by that continued pounding.
I mean, football players are tough, and there are degrees of fractures and solid pain management in the NFL.
But to play such a violent game, at a position where you are absolutely getting pounded and hit and tackled from all angles, I can't believe how nails Jacobs is playing through this, and playing though this so well.
Also have to wonder given where the Raiders are if they don't start shutting him down. We're not technically out of playoff contention, but it's not as if we're confidently in it either, and there is the future to think of. Not sure how this injury can be exacerbated or not by that continued pounding.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Not only playing a tough position in a violent game and doing it at a high level but he doesn't just go down when hit and hasn't been shy about contact either. Would NEVER have guessed. Dude is a stud.
Now, I am thankful for it and all but can someone explain to me what the hell was Saban thinking giving Damien Harris more carries than Jacobs?!
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
I agree with this post, except for the fact that Carr is a franchise QB. Dude still makes dumb throws and can't create on his feet. He needs things to be perfect or near perfect to win games.
However, he is good enough to be a place holder until we build up our defense, find a stud WR, and get some youth on our oline. No need to reach for a QB. With the salary cap it's beneficial to have everything else in place and then find a QB afterwards. If you draft a QB before all that you'll waste valuable rookie contract years. You want a QB that can compete on a rookie deal or cycle through low cost starters, until you find your stud QB. Once you get a decent QB you'll have to pay them (a la Carr) and it's tough to outplay their salary.
Ah, so when we're ready for an elite level QB when the rest of our team is filled in we'll just give the NCAA a call and tell them to send us their surefire top 10 QB please and we'll draft him.
Sorry, please don't take my sarcasm as a personal attack, I'm just having fun. Just want to rebut with my opinion that if you think one of the QB's on the board have an elite ceiling I think you gotta take them. Sure, they could be a bust and you missed out on that "solid" CB or whatever but as the list @Chadstroma made it's damn hard to find a QB and you're going to miss some(most)times but that's not a reason to pass on a guy if you think he has the skills and you know he's not going to be their at your next pick.
But if Tua is there and Mayock/Gruden don't think he's all that he's hyped up to be then fine, move on.
A lot easier to find a #1 WR in the 2nd round than a franchise QB but I understand your perspective.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Don't disagree with anything you said. Mayock has done so well this draft, I'll trust him on whatever he decides to do regarding QB. The whole point of my post is that we don't need to reach or feel forced to draft a QB because we have Carr, who is a solid but limited QB. If you build up the defense and give him some weapons he can do what Jimmy G is doing in Santa Clara. He's not a bum, but he can't carry an offense on his own.
As a Chiefs fan, I don't necessarily disagree with you that Carr is say maybe "serviceable" and that the Raiders should look at other positions in the draft. To be honest, as a Chiefs fan, I hope they stick with Carr.
I will say though in reference to the Gannon comparisons....with the changes in the NFL since the Gannon days, Gannon's performance kind of gets a bump for me.....Carr's stats SHOULD be as good or not better than Gannon's in "today's NFL". Many "average" QB's today are probably putting up stats that are better than what were considered "really good years" back then.
this is crazy.....dude was running like a beast....major props....
but it also has me wondering.....since week 7...?....and this is the first we hear about it.....did you Raider fans know about this...?....you would think the Raiders might get in trouble for not releasing that information......
kaso
Footballguy
Great post. Can you find a means to shorten it and blast it all over the Raiders Twitter to quiet all the Carr talk? Thanks!
kaso
Footballguy
I think it only becomes an issue if they weren't reporting his ability or inability to practice... But I'm far from an expert on that area.
Ed Wood
Footballguy
Great post, Chad!! Lotta good points.
Doesn't change my thought that Carr is not a QB that can take a team all the way. Unless he's got a defense that's a tick or two below the 85 Bears or 2001 Ravens, he's going to be called on to do more than his skills allow him to do in a playoff stretch IMO.
But I agree that this team has much bigger needs than Carr right now. If they improve the D considerably and give Carr a true No. 1 receiver in an apparently receiver-rich class coming up, maybe they can mask Carr's deficiencies enough to make a deep run in the next two to four years. I doubt it happens and a lot of things have to go right for that to happen. Anyway it's a fun debate.
BTW, if the Gannon that played for the Raiders walked through the door in Oakland, I'd take him in a heartbeat over Carr. He was much, much better than Carr is today regardless if their stats were similar.
Ed Wood
Footballguy
I'd say Carr is much more than "serviceable." I'd call him "capable with warts."
I agree with the reference to Gannon comparisons. There are obviously frequent generational changes in the league. Brady has benefited immensely from these. They treat QBs with kid gloves and it gets worse every year. Breathe on a receiver now and you get a flag.
That's why I've never bought into Brady being the GOAT. For me it's Montana. He still played in an era where the defense could break the QB's coccyx and the ref would look the other way. Brady would have crumbled like a cheap suit if he played the 1985 Bears--just like Montana did (17 of 29 for 160 yards and 7 sacks).
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I cut this argument off before you had a chance. Did you read the rest of the post where I did comparisons to this year's QB's?
Chadstroma
Footballguy
That is the thing with so many of these "Raider fans". They do not want to educate and make rational judgments based on information but look at the record... oh, gotta draft a QB! It is silly. Look at the system. Look at the supporting cast. Look at comparables to other QB's. Look at the entire circumstances. Give Carr a true #1 QB and if he isn't a top 10 QB then I am wrong. But he is doing more with less.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
What deficiency is in his game? He is an accurate QB in short, medium and long balls. He has good arm strength. He has above average vision. He reads the field well and makes good audibles. He isn't turnover prone. He is an excellent leader (I give him a significant amount of credit for helping create the culture we have now on this team. Brothers playing for brothers.) He loves being a Raider.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Like most QBs, Carr gets flustered badly when the offense loses rhythm, especially when protections go wrong. He's athletic, but not mobile and doesn't sense pressure well. That said, give him a clean pocket and some decent offensive weapons and he's proven to be a well-above average QB, especially in late-game clutch moments. I think Matt Stafford is his closest comp, which is solid, but like many have been signaling here, doesn't exactly inspire Superbowl confidence.
I also think if a Mayock-endorsed elite QB prospect were to fall to them - as in a true game changer like Mahomes, Watson, Jackson - then I'm all for upgrading the position with a premium pick. But barring that type of player, Carr is already an above-avg NFL starter who is now seasoned and a well-liked leader. Zero need to draft someone who is only likely to be the same type of player at best. I have faith in Mayock's ability to discern who is a true upgrade and who is not.
And with that said, there is nothing that should stop them from swinging every year on a 3-7th round developmental QB that could serve as a backup at first, and future potential starter if luck breaks this way. Using fantasy points as a proxy, here are the top QBs in the league this year, aside from the three uber-elites mentioned above...
Wilson - 3rd rounder (also an uber elite)
Prescott - 4th rounder
Allen/Rodgers/Murray - 1st rounders
Cousins - 4th rounder
Winston - 1st rounder
Brady - 6th rounder
Wentz/Ryan - 1st rounders
Grop - 2nd rounder
It's harder to find an elite QB out of the first round, but not impossible. Stack the roster with more depth and take a mid-late shot at a QB prospect every year until Derek either matures into a truly elite QB; or you find the haystack needle to replace him. Plus, drafting a potential replacement QB late doesn't inject emotional poison into Carr and the rest of the roster, should the new guy (likely) not work out.
I also think if a Mayock-endorsed elite QB prospect were to fall to them - as in a true game changer like Mahomes, Watson, Jackson - then I'm all for upgrading the position with a premium pick. But barring that type of player, Carr is already an above-avg NFL starter who is now seasoned and a well-liked leader. Zero need to draft someone who is only likely to be the same type of player at best. I have faith in Mayock's ability to discern who is a true upgrade and who is not.
And with that said, there is nothing that should stop them from swinging every year on a 3-7th round developmental QB that could serve as a backup at first, and future potential starter if luck breaks this way. Using fantasy points as a proxy, here are the top QBs in the league this year, aside from the three uber-elites mentioned above...
Wilson - 3rd rounder (also an uber elite)
Prescott - 4th rounder
Allen/Rodgers/Murray - 1st rounders
Cousins - 4th rounder
Winston - 1st rounder
Brady - 6th rounder
Wentz/Ryan - 1st rounders
Grop - 2nd rounder
It's harder to find an elite QB out of the first round, but not impossible. Stack the roster with more depth and take a mid-late shot at a QB prospect every year until Derek either matures into a truly elite QB; or you find the haystack needle to replace him. Plus, drafting a potential replacement QB late doesn't inject emotional poison into Carr and the rest of the roster, should the new guy (likely) not work out.
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