What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (13 Viewers)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Was at Walmart this morning. When I was at the checkout I loooked over by the front wall and there was a folding table with a sign hanging on it that said “check us out”

On the table was a small pack of paper towels, some bottles of cleaners of some type, hand soap and two 3 oz bottles of Equate hand sanitizer. I haven’t even looked for sanitizer in weeks because no one has it. But I am getting low

I asked the kid ringing me out if the stuff on that table was for sale. “Oh yeah, definitely” 

So I walked over and grabbed the sanitizers and sat them on my conveyor. When he got to them he said “you’re only supposed to be allowed one bottle but I’ll let you have both”

Felt like I won something. :oldunsure:
A friend of the family somehow found some hand santizer being sold online, so my mom ordered us some... running low at house and the office.

A friend of my mom's had a ton of disposable masks, sent some of those to parents' house, picking those up soon.  And another of her friends had some re-usable ones for sale so we got some of those too.  We'll be stocked up soon!

 
'In the long run, the industry is still optimistic that it can adapt. “We’ve got fiber supply, we’ve got trees,” said Georgia-Pacific’s Abercrombie. “It’s just a matter of making the product and getting it out.”'

Read this article last week and the week before. Still baffling. Where you at guy?
I saw it was dated 4/2 and figured it might be a repost - I keep up pretty well with this thread but I've definitely missed some pages here and there.

But I also figure there's constantly new people arriving to this thread, so reposts may be new to them.

Where am I physically at?... Columbus, OH.

Also a big Rush fan.  :headbang:

 
What Everyone’s Getting Wrong About the Toilet Paper Shortage - It isn’t really about hoarding. And there isn’t an easy fix.

tldr: There are 2 TP markets, consumer and industrial (e.g. restaurants, schools, hotels, airports).  Different TP companies serve each market, and produce differently sized, packaged, and quality TP. The industrial producers can't easily switch to the consumer market.

What Everyone’s Getting Wrong About the Toilet Paper Shortage
It isn’t really about hoarding. And there isn’t an easy fix.
Will Oremus
Will Oremus
Follow
Apr 2 · 6 min read

Stores have placed limits on purchases of toilet paper, yet they’re still selling out, suggesting that hoarding isn’t entirely to blame. Photo: Icon Sportswire/Getty Images
AAround the world, in countries afflicted with the coronavirus, stores are sold out of toilet paper. There have been shortages in Hong Kong, Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States. And we all know who to blame: hoarders and panic-buyers.
Well, not so fast.
Story after story explains the toilet paper outages as a sort of fluke of consumer irrationality. Unlike hand sanitizer, N95 masks, or hospital ventilators, they note, toilet paper serves no special function in a pandemic. Toilet paper manufacturers are cranking out the same supply as always. And it’s not like people are using the bathroom more often, right?
U.S. Health Secretary Alex Azar summed up the paradox in a March 13 New York Times story: “Toilet paper is not an effective way to prevent getting the coronavirus, but they’re selling out.” The president of a paper manufacturer offered the consensus explanation: “You are not using more of it. You are just filling up your closet with it.”
Faced with this mystifying phenomenon, media outlets have turned to psychologists to explain why people are cramming their shelves with a household good that has nothing to do with the pandemic. Read the coverage and you’ll encounter all sorts of fascinating concepts, from “zero risk bias” to “anticipatory anxiety.” It’s “driven by fear” and a “herd mentality,” the BBC scolded. The libertarian Mises Institute took the opportunity to blame anti-gouging laws. The Atlantic published a short documentary harking back to the great toilet paper scare of 1973, which was driven by misinformation.
Most outlets agreed that the spike in demand would be short-lived, subsiding as soon as the hoarders were satiated.
No doubt there’s been some panic-buying, particularly once photos of empty store shelves began circulating on social media. There have also been a handful of documented cases of true hoarding. But you don’t need to assume that most consumers are greedy or irrational to understand how coronavirus would spur a surge in demand. And you can stop wondering where in the world people are storing all that Quilted Northern.
There’s another, entirely logical explanation for why stores have run out of toilet paper — one that has gone oddly overlooked in the vast majority of media coverage. It has nothing to do with psychology and everything to do with supply chains. It helps to explain why stores are still having trouble keeping it in stock, weeks after they started limiting how many a customer could purchase.
In short, the toilet paper industry is split into two, largely separate markets: commercial and consumer. The pandemic has shifted the lion’s share of demand to the latter. People actually do need to buy significantly more toilet paper during the pandemic — not because they’re making more trips to the bathroom, but because they’re making more of them at home. With some 75% of the U.S. population under stay-at-home orders, Americans are no longer using the restrooms at their workplace, in schools, at restaurants, at hotels, or in airports.
Georgia-Pacific, a leading toilet paper manufacturer based in Atlanta, estimates that the average household will use 40% more toilet paper than usual if all of its members are staying home around the clock. That’s a huge leap in demand for a product whose supply chain is predicated on the assumption that demand is essentially constant. It’s one that won’t fully subside even when people stop hoarding or panic-buying.

Boxes of Angel Soft toilet paper for the consumer market roll off the line at Georgia-Pacific’s paper mill in Palatka, Florida. Credit: Image courtesy of Georgia-Pacific
If you’re looking for where all the toilet paper went, forget about people’s attics or hall closets. Think instead of all the toilet paper that normally goes to the commercial market — those office buildings, college campuses, Starbucks, and airports that are now either mostly empty or closed. That’s the toilet paper that’s suddenly going unused.
So why can’t we just send that toilet paper to Safeway or CVS? That’s where supply chains and distribution channels come in.
Not only is it not the same product, but it often doesn’t come from the same mills.
Talk to anyone in the industry, and they’ll tell you the toilet paper made for the commercial market is a fundamentally different product from the toilet paper you buy in the store. It comes in huge rolls, too big to fit on most home dispensers. The paper itself is thinner and more utilitarian. It comes individually wrapped and is shipped on huge pallets, rather than in brightly branded packs of six or 12.
“Not only is it not the same product, but it often doesn’t come from the same mills,” added Jim Luke, a professor of economics at Lansing Community College, who once worked as head of planning for a wholesale paper distributor. “So for instance, Procter & Gamble [which owns Charmin] is huge in the retail consumer market. But it doesn’t play in the institutional market at all.”
Georgia-Pacific, which sells to both markets, told me its commercial products also use more recycled fiber, while the retail sheets for its consumer brands Angel Soft and Quilted Northern are typically 100% virgin fiber. Eric Abercrombie, a spokesman for the company, said it has seen demand rise on the retail side, while it expects a decline in the “away-from-home activity” that drives its business-to-business sales.
In theory, some of the mills that make commercial toilet paper could try to redirect some of that supply to the consumer market. People desperate for toilet paper probably wouldn’t turn up their noses at it. But the industry can’t just flip a switch. Shifting to retail channels would require new relationships and contracts between suppliers, distributors, and stores; different formats for packaging and shipping; new trucking routes — all for a bulky product with lean profit margins.
Because toilet paper is high volume but low value, the industry runs on extreme efficiency, with mills built to work at full capacity around the clock even in normal times. That works only because demand is typically so steady. If toilet paper manufacturers spend a bunch of money now to refocus on the retail channel, they’ll face the same problem in reverse once people head back to work again.
“The normal distribution system is like a well-orchestrated ballet,” said Willy Shih, a professor at Harvard Business School. “If you make a delivery to a Walmart distribution center, they give you a half-hour window, and your truck has to show up then.” The changes wrought by the coronavirus, he said, “have thrown the whole thing out of balance, and everything has to readjust.”
While toilet paper is an extreme case, similar dynamics are likely to temporarily disrupt supplies of other goods, too — even if no one’s hoarding or panic-buying. The CEO of a fruit and vegetable supplier told NPR’s Weekend Edition that schools and restaurants are canceling their banana orders, while grocery stores are selling out and want more. The problem is that the bananas he sells to schools and restaurants are “petite” and sold loose in boxes of 150, whereas grocery store bananas are larger and sold in bunches. Beer companies face a similar challenge converting commercial keg sales to retail cans and bottles.
I’m absolutely convinced that very little was triggered by hoarding.
It’s all happening, of course, against the backdrop of a pandemic that makes it hard enough for these producers to keep up business as usual, let alone remold their operations to keep up with radical shifts in demand.
If there’s any good news, it’s that we can stop blaming these shortages on the alleged idiocy of our fellow consumers. “I’m absolutely convinced that very little was triggered by hoarding,” Luke said. Even a modest, reasonable amount of stocking up by millions of people in preparation for stay-at-home orders would have been enough to deplete many store shelves. From there, the ripple effects of availability concerns, coupled with a genuine increase in demand due to people staying in, are sufficient to explain the ongoing supply problems.
In the long run, the industry is still optimistic that it can adapt. “We’ve got fiber supply, we’ve got trees,” said Georgia-Pacific’s Abercrombie. “It’s just a matter of making the product and getting it out.”
In the meantime, some enterprising restaurateurs have begun selling their excess supplies of toilet paper, alcohol, and other basics. Last week I picked up takeout at a local restaurant with a side of toilet paper and bananas. The toilet paper was thin and individually wrapped. The bananas were puny. They’ll do just fine.
Someone posted this last week, as well. It's a good read ... but I don't think it explains a prolonged paper-products shortage in a given store. Or else I just can't wrap my head around it.

Really, paper products should be back to normal-ish in chain groceries by now, IMHO. And at least in the ones I go to, they're still out. Only the local dollar store ever has paper products, and I think they're getting found out.

 
  • Thanks
Reactions: JAA
Someone posted this last week, as well. It's a good read ... but I don't think it explains a prolonged paper-products shortage in a given store. Or else I just can't wrap my head around it.

Really, paper products should be back to normal-ish in chain groceries by now, IMHO. And at least in the ones I go to, they're still out. Only the local dollar store ever has paper products, and I think they're getting found out.
Despite what the article said, people buying more TP than normal is definitely part of the issue.

People are conditioned now to buy TP when they see it, regardless of current need.

But the article also highlights the key fact that people are using a LOT more TP at home now, i.e. TP from the consumer market - and that supply is limited by how fast and how much the consumer market companies can scale up.  Meanwhile untold tons of industrial TP is now sitting in warehouses.

 
Can you readily find paper products locally without going all over?
I would answer if I could, but I'm doing my best to avoid setting foot in a grocery store again for as long into the future as possible.

I was at a Kroger 4 weeks ago (no TP), and a Target 2 weeks ago (no TP).

Just from this thread it sounds like it's hit or miss now, but it's sometimes available in the mornings until it sells out again.

 
I saw it was dated 4/2 and figured it might be a repost - I keep up pretty well with this thread but I've definitely missed some pages here and there.

But I also figure there's constantly new people arriving to this thread, so reposts may be new to them.

Where am I physically at?... Columbus, OH.

Also a big Rush fan.  :headbang:
Nice! To be more clear I was asking the TP guy from "Georgia-Pacific’s Abercrombie" where he's at already because he's been saying that for what seems like weeks already.  :D

Glad you posted it. This one is baffling a bit as other posters are also pointing out.

 
What Everyone’s Getting Wrong About the Toilet Paper Shortage - It isn’t really about hoarding. And there isn’t an easy fix.

tldr: There are 2 TP markets, consumer and industrial (e.g. restaurants, schools, hotels, airports).  Different TP companies serve each market, and produce differently sized, packaged, and quality TP. The industrial producers can't easily switch to the consumer market.

What Everyone’s Getting Wrong About the Toilet Paper Shortage
It isn’t really about hoarding. And there isn’t an easy fix.
Will Oremus
Will Oremus
Follow
Apr 2 · 6 min read

Stores have placed limits on purchases of toilet paper, yet they’re still selling out, suggesting that hoarding isn’t entirely to blame. Photo: Icon Sportswire/Getty Images
AAround the world, in countries afflicted with the coronavirus, stores are sold out of toilet paper. There have been shortages in Hong Kong, Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States. And we all know who to blame: hoarders and panic-buyers.
Well, not so fast.
Story after story explains the toilet paper outages as a sort of fluke of consumer irrationality. Unlike hand sanitizer, N95 masks, or hospital ventilators, they note, toilet paper serves no special function in a pandemic. Toilet paper manufacturers are cranking out the same supply as always. And it’s not like people are using the bathroom more often, right?
U.S. Health Secretary Alex Azar summed up the paradox in a March 13 New York Times story: “Toilet paper is not an effective way to prevent getting the coronavirus, but they’re selling out.” The president of a paper manufacturer offered the consensus explanation: “You are not using more of it. You are just filling up your closet with it.”
Faced with this mystifying phenomenon, media outlets have turned to psychologists to explain why people are cramming their shelves with a household good that has nothing to do with the pandemic. Read the coverage and you’ll encounter all sorts of fascinating concepts, from “zero risk bias” to “anticipatory anxiety.” It’s “driven by fear” and a “herd mentality,” the BBC scolded. The libertarian Mises Institute took the opportunity to blame anti-gouging laws. The Atlantic published a short documentary harking back to the great toilet paper scare of 1973, which was driven by misinformation.
Most outlets agreed that the spike in demand would be short-lived, subsiding as soon as the hoarders were satiated.
No doubt there’s been some panic-buying, particularly once photos of empty store shelves began circulating on social media. There have also been a handful of documented cases of true hoarding. But you don’t need to assume that most consumers are greedy or irrational to understand how coronavirus would spur a surge in demand. And you can stop wondering where in the world people are storing all that Quilted Northern.
There’s another, entirely logical explanation for why stores have run out of toilet paper — one that has gone oddly overlooked in the vast majority of media coverage. It has nothing to do with psychology and everything to do with supply chains. It helps to explain why stores are still having trouble keeping it in stock, weeks after they started limiting how many a customer could purchase.
In short, the toilet paper industry is split into two, largely separate markets: commercial and consumer. The pandemic has shifted the lion’s share of demand to the latter. People actually do need to buy significantly more toilet paper during the pandemic — not because they’re making more trips to the bathroom, but because they’re making more of them at home. With some 75% of the U.S. population under stay-at-home orders, Americans are no longer using the restrooms at their workplace, in schools, at restaurants, at hotels, or in airports.
Georgia-Pacific, a leading toilet paper manufacturer based in Atlanta, estimates that the average household will use 40% more toilet paper than usual if all of its members are staying home around the clock. That’s a huge leap in demand for a product whose supply chain is predicated on the assumption that demand is essentially constant. It’s one that won’t fully subside even when people stop hoarding or panic-buying.

Boxes of Angel Soft toilet paper for the consumer market roll off the line at Georgia-Pacific’s paper mill in Palatka, Florida. Credit: Image courtesy of Georgia-Pacific
If you’re looking for where all the toilet paper went, forget about people’s attics or hall closets. Think instead of all the toilet paper that normally goes to the commercial market — those office buildings, college campuses, Starbucks, and airports that are now either mostly empty or closed. That’s the toilet paper that’s suddenly going unused.
So why can’t we just send that toilet paper to Safeway or CVS? That’s where supply chains and distribution channels come in.
Not only is it not the same product, but it often doesn’t come from the same mills.
Talk to anyone in the industry, and they’ll tell you the toilet paper made for the commercial market is a fundamentally different product from the toilet paper you buy in the store. It comes in huge rolls, too big to fit on most home dispensers. The paper itself is thinner and more utilitarian. It comes individually wrapped and is shipped on huge pallets, rather than in brightly branded packs of six or 12.
“Not only is it not the same product, but it often doesn’t come from the same mills,” added Jim Luke, a professor of economics at Lansing Community College, who once worked as head of planning for a wholesale paper distributor. “So for instance, Procter & Gamble [which owns Charmin] is huge in the retail consumer market. But it doesn’t play in the institutional market at all.”
Georgia-Pacific, which sells to both markets, told me its commercial products also use more recycled fiber, while the retail sheets for its consumer brands Angel Soft and Quilted Northern are typically 100% virgin fiber. Eric Abercrombie, a spokesman for the company, said it has seen demand rise on the retail side, while it expects a decline in the “away-from-home activity” that drives its business-to-business sales.
In theory, some of the mills that make commercial toilet paper could try to redirect some of that supply to the consumer market. People desperate for toilet paper probably wouldn’t turn up their noses at it. But the industry can’t just flip a switch. Shifting to retail channels would require new relationships and contracts between suppliers, distributors, and stores; different formats for packaging and shipping; new trucking routes — all for a bulky product with lean profit margins.
Because toilet paper is high volume but low value, the industry runs on extreme efficiency, with mills built to work at full capacity around the clock even in normal times. That works only because demand is typically so steady. If toilet paper manufacturers spend a bunch of money now to refocus on the retail channel, they’ll face the same problem in reverse once people head back to work again.
“The normal distribution system is like a well-orchestrated ballet,” said Willy Shih, a professor at Harvard Business School. “If you make a delivery to a Walmart distribution center, they give you a half-hour window, and your truck has to show up then.” The changes wrought by the coronavirus, he said, “have thrown the whole thing out of balance, and everything has to readjust.”
While toilet paper is an extreme case, similar dynamics are likely to temporarily disrupt supplies of other goods, too — even if no one’s hoarding or panic-buying. The CEO of a fruit and vegetable supplier told NPR’s Weekend Edition that schools and restaurants are canceling their banana orders, while grocery stores are selling out and want more. The problem is that the bananas he sells to schools and restaurants are “petite” and sold loose in boxes of 150, whereas grocery store bananas are larger and sold in bunches. Beer companies face a similar challenge converting commercial keg sales to retail cans and bottles.
I’m absolutely convinced that very little was triggered by hoarding.
It’s all happening, of course, against the backdrop of a pandemic that makes it hard enough for these producers to keep up business as usual, let alone remold their operations to keep up with radical shifts in demand.
If there’s any good news, it’s that we can stop blaming these shortages on the alleged idiocy of our fellow consumers. “I’m absolutely convinced that very little was triggered by hoarding,” Luke said. Even a modest, reasonable amount of stocking up by millions of people in preparation for stay-at-home orders would have been enough to deplete many store shelves. From there, the ripple effects of availability concerns, coupled with a genuine increase in demand due to people staying in, are sufficient to explain the ongoing supply problems.
In the long run, the industry is still optimistic that it can adapt. “We’ve got fiber supply, we’ve got trees,” said Georgia-Pacific’s Abercrombie. “It’s just a matter of making the product and getting it out.”
In the meantime, some enterprising restaurateurs have begun selling their excess supplies of toilet paper, alcohol, and other basics. Last week I picked up takeout at a local restaurant with a side of toilet paper and bananas. The toilet paper was thin and individually wrapped. The bananas were puny. They’ll do just fine.
My most recent grocery run i noticed a ton of sysco TP in the aisle.

They didnt change packaging. Just selling big boxes and single rolls. 

 
My most recent grocery run i noticed a ton of sysco TP in the aisle.

They didnt change packaging. Just selling big boxes and single rolls. 
Wish they'd do that here.

We have old pipes that can't abide thick TP ... one-ply industrial is fine. Still have maybe a ~45-day supply at home -- but the way things are looking, TP won't be back to normal in 45 days.

 
My most recent grocery run i noticed a ton of sysco TP in the aisle.

They didnt change packaging. Just selling big boxes and single rolls. 
That's one way of adjusting from the industrial to the consumer channel!

I assume that must mean they are bar coded... or maybe bar codes were added?... or someone at the store blew the dust off the old sticker pricing gun.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Saying those that want to save lives really just want to sabotage the economy is as bad as saying those that want to save the economy just want to see people die. 

I would get banned if I claimed those that want to save the economy just want to see people die. Saying people just want to sabotage the economy should be banned as well.
Sorry GB, I got into the catnip last night, turned on the TV for the first time in a week, landed on Fox News and was astonished at what was being said on screen.  What I posted was a not-so-embellished recap of what precisely Hannity and his guest were saying.  And I got carried away with it.  For that, I apologize to you all.  

What saddens me is that I considered us iBuddies with enough respect for one another to clear things up over PM but I suppose I crossed a line that crumbled that circumstance.  I'll be far more careful in the future.

 
We see all these models about the virus moving through the air, hoping over supermarket shelves 2 isles over, walking through some virus cloud of the person running in front of us.....and they are making a handshake our anti-doomsday solution? 
Don't buy into any of this yet -- aerosols haven't even been shown to carry "live", whole viruses.
Correct, don't buy into it yet, and hopefully it isn't possible to walk through someone's "vapor cloud" and get infected.

But I absolutely think it's prudent to consider that it may be possible and to protect oneself appropriately until the true facts are known.
Novel viruses that spread via airborne means end up with R0 numbers in the teens. Measles is the poster child for this -- before widespread vaccination, it's R0 was estimated in the 12-18 range in both the U.S. and U.K. (scroll halfway down to the 'Obsolete R0 Values' section).

That specific comparison to measles is what stops me from accepting that airborne spread of COVID-19 may be possible. Even in areas where COVID was spreading rapidly, R0 values in the teens were rarely estimated. New information may change my perspective, but such new information would have to reconcile that comparison to measles in my mind.

 
Sorry GB, I got into the catnip last night, turned on the TV for the first time in a week, landed on Fox News and was astonished at what was being said on screen.  What I posted was a not-so-embellished recap of what precisely Hannity and his guest were saying.  And I got carried away with it.  For that, I apologize to you all.  

What saddens me is that I considered us iBuddies with enough respect for one another to clear things up over PM but I suppose I crossed a line that crumbled that circumstance.  I'll be far more careful in the future.
My facebook feed has been full of what you posted in the last 48 hours. My response wasn't directed at you, as you were posting tongue in cheek. I was responding to the type of person you were mimicking as there are many, many people who are thinking like that right now. 

 
Big League Chew said:
so after all this coronavirus is gone and we are back to normal. What do you think will happen with Hand shakes?
Bowing and curtseying will be making a comeback.  Why you think they used to do that back in the day?

 
beer 30 said:
As a whole, no way we stay closed down for months. Ask me that question a week ago and I would have been on board but after this week, just don't see it happening.
Why after this week? What happened this week to make you think we are all that much to getting back to normal?

 
Doug B said:
Novel viruses that spread via airborne means end up with R0 numbers in the teens. Measles is the poster child for this -- before widespread vaccination, it's R0 was estimated in the 12-18 range in both the U.S. and U.K. (scroll halfway down to the 'Obsolete R0 Values' section).

That specific comparison to measles is what stops me from accepting that airborne spread of COVID-19 may be possible. Even in areas where COVID was spreading rapidly, R0 values in the teens were rarely estimated. New information may change my perspective, but such new information would have to reconcile that comparison to measles in my mind.
Maybe it does have that and most people are just asymptomatic? 

Maybe it does have a value like that, but not for some people? Maybe it needs to latch onto something that is more present in some people? 

I am not saying these are true just throwing out possibilities. 

Honestly, the most disappointing thing about all of this is how little is known outside of the death statistics. 

 
ericttspikes said:
I'm a history buff and I've been reading about what life was like in 1918-1919 during the "America's Forgotten Pandemic". Not only were we in a World War, but then this thing hit too. A majority of our trained medical workers were overseas leaving med students and volunteers to tend to the sick here. Talk about an over stretched system. Just crazy

They did things that worked that we are doing now; social distancing, shut things down like schools and movie theaters, wore masks, etc. Some things were vastly different; sanitary conditions were awful. No medical equipment like ventilators. They were doing "treatments" like blood letting and overdosing people with aspirin. They didn't even know what the "Spanish Flu" was because they didn't have microscopes powerful enough to see it and spent almost a year thinking it was caused by a bacteria and focused on treatments for that. It was a straight up killer.

Despite all of that, they got through it. The tremendous loss of life was no doubt largely caused by the conditions of the time, lack of treatments and poor medical care. Here we are 100 years later. Maybe I'm in the minority, but despite the fear and unknown, I'm optimistic. I have to be. What would it say about us if we can't beat this? Was that generation just a better version of us? Despite all the advances we have in medicine, hygiene, communication, sanitation, chemicals, PPE we can't do better than they did? Thank God we're not in a World War also.

The Spanish Flu had 3 waves. The second was the biggest killer and was a deadlier mutation of the first. My understanding that CV is different in that respect and is more stable. Not sure if true or not. October 1918 was the deadliest month of the pandemic, on Jan.1, 1918 Mare Island Marines played the Great Lakes Navy in the Rose Bowl in what was mostly a celebration of winning the war. As time passed, the Spanish Flu was a footnote in history. Perhaps overshadowed by the war. In 1924, the Encyclopedia Britannica didn't even mention the pandemic in its review of the "most eventful years" of the 20th century. Despite the different time and a different pandemic, reading how a different generation got up and forged ahead through a much darker time gives me hope for us as well.
Not sure if you saw this but it is a great read

 
I posted this previously, but IMO we can stop shelter-at-home when the following 4 conditions are met:

1. Testing is ubiquitous.  We need data to make data-driven decisions.

2. Daily new infections show a clear declining trend.

3. Hospitals can handle it.  That may mean improvement in treatments, or it may mean additional capacity. Obviously PPE in stock.

4. People can have assurances they can go about their business and not get sick.  Maybe that means masks, sanitizer everywhere, public monitoring of temperatures, ability to maintain space, etc.  That means, not everything will open.  No crowds, for example. Or, maybe there are crowds but the vulnerable population will need to be protected.

Personally, i don't see me being in a crowd until either i have recovered from COVID and therefore have some immunity or have a vaccine.   That means i won't be going to any bars, sporting events, etc probably for a couple of years.  
My thoughts on opening up remain unchanged.  If i had to put a date on it, it would be end of May.

 
guru_007 said:
I certainly agree that we need widespread testing available (and am optimistic we are weeks away rather than months), I am also a pragmatist and understand that the country needs to be opened up and talked about opening up as soon as possible - much before we can test every single human.  I know it's probably going to be an unpopular opinion here but there is a massive financial burden that is being placed on everyone and the economy needs to get back into play.

An interesting read here https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-07/michael-burry-slams-virus-lockdowns-in-controversial-tweetstorm 

Not sure if it was posted previously and discussed, but the strain is real.  1/3 of American's didn't pay rent last month.  20% could be unemployed by this month.  I'd estimated 2/3 - 3/4's of people will not be paying this month.  Everyone is relying heavily on the government, but even the government is overwhelmed here.  There is a domino effect when you are making money out of thin air.  People complaining that they aren't getting their stimulus checks yet or extra $600 in unemployment yet - it takes time to put the wheels in motion.  And where the money comes from, who knows?

I am hoping the country can

start rolling out in stages starting in May.  But until there is a vaccine, we are honestly going to have to deal with this virus the best way we can.  Masks, washing hands, staying apart, etc... will certainly deter massive hot spots.  A treatment could be forthcoming by mid-summer.  Vaccine isn't going to happen until next year at the earliest though.  I know everyone is concerned, and some panicked, but so long as the medical system isn't overwhelmed, I think we can't wait too long that is going to be worse than the virus itself.  People just think we can sit around and do nothing for 3-4 months and jobs will be there waiting for them.  Liquidity issues are massive and the fed can't cure them forever.  It just isn't going to happen.
Some good reading:

 
NotSmart said:
A few weeks ago we signed up with a local farm for veggie/milk/egg delivery direct to our door once a week.

It is a premium cost, but 100% worth it right now to keep me from having to go into a grocery store.

I strongly suspect we'll end up keeping it even after the new normal starts settling in.
this

Im all about bringing back the milkman.  Yes, things will cost more but it will be 100% sourced locally.

 
Ray McKigney said:
IMO, we should not even be thinking about beginning to open up again until late June/early July. Maybe Independence Day will take on a new meaning. 
I remember my family talking about a bunch of holidays falling on or near weekends this year(Valentine's, 4th of July, Halloween, Christmas and New Year's Eve are all on Friday or Saturday), but with this pandemic going on, who knows what's going to happen, especially if a second wave pops up in the fall.

 
Galileo said:
Just because they won't test you doesn't mean you don't have it.  I see no reason why one person couldn't be inflicted with two viruses simultaneously.
Maybe they cancel each other out!

 
  • Thanks
Reactions: JAA
Statorama said:
Be careful out there guys, there are people taking advantage of mask-wearing being the new norm

Like these two idiots in Illinois  .
That's freakin beautiful. The homeowner shot and killed one of the two robbers. The other robber is charged with murder. We got that one right!!!!

Under Illinois’ felony murder law, charges can be filed when someone is killed during the course of a crime even if the death was caused by someone else and the person charged with murder did not intend for the person to die.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
shader said:
Well that was a dumb model if it predicted 2 million deaths with a full lockdown.

2 million deaths in the USA is still theoretically possible, but the government clearly won’t allow that to happen. 
What will the government do to stop 2 million deaths?   If we open things back up, which we will at some point, we will just see cases (and deaths) balloon again.

We need a vaccine.  

 
the moops said:
I feel the opposite. I think we need to tell ourselves that we arw closed for a couple months until we get a grasp on testing and treatments and whatever. Only then should we have the initial conversations about opening things up. Seems way to premature and is going to get people's hopes up way too early if we start discussing it now :shrug:
Exactly.   Until we have a) massive testing capacity, b) advanced treatments, and eventually c) a vaccine.....opening things up will just be a repeat of what we see now.  

 
Why after this week? What happened this week to make you think we are all that much to getting back to normal?
Why does this keep coming up?  Starting to open some things up is a long ways from getting back to normal.  When things start to open back up, and we're still a ways from that, it's going to be a long process.  I'd imagine it will start with certain parts of the country, maybe more rural or places less impacted by the virus.  Or it may be certain age groups,  I don't know.  That's well above my pay grade.  That's why I think discussions need to be happening now on the best way of starting the process, whenever that may be.

 
Why after this week? What happened this week to make you think we are all that much to getting back to normal?
Why does this keep coming up?  Starting to open some things up is a long ways from getting back to normal.  When things start to open back up, and we're still a ways from that, it's going to be a long process.  I'd imagine it will start with certain parts of the country, maybe more rural or places less impacted by the virus.  Or it may be certain age groups,  I don't know.  That's well above my pay grade.  That's why I think discussions need to be happening now on the best way of starting the process, whenever that may be.
OK, maybe I misworded. The more apt question was why after this past week did his thinking change? 

 
That's freakin beautiful. The homeowner shot and killed one of the two robbers. The other robber is charged with murder. We got that one right!!!!

Under Illinois’ felony murder law, charges can be filed when someone is killed during the course of a crime even if the death was caused by someone else and the person charged with murder did not intend for the person to die.
Not a lawyer, but did drop out of law school...

I think felony murder in every jursidiction is similar to that statute in IL

 
TLEF316 said:
The lack of a timeframe/light at the end of the tunnel is just the absolute killer here.

Its been nearly a month and I'm pretty stir crazy. Can't imagine how its gonna be if we're still in a holding pattern with bad/incomplete information in freaking June.
Last night my 11 year-old son, who likes to share his feelings right around bedtime, told me "I think that I'm starting to lose my mind a little bit."   He was completely sincere -- he's struggling a lot with being quarantined.  The lack of ability to spend time with his friends is tough -- even though he's an introvert -- and his mental health is slipping a bit each week.  Luckily, he has a ton of support and will be fine.  But it's really tough to hear your kid talk that way.

 
OK, maybe I misworded. The more apt question was why after this past week did his thinking change? 
Sorry I didn't mean to single you out I've seen others say it to.  I don't think anyone here is advocating opening everything up at the same time by a certain day.  Once we get to the point it's going to be a long process that's all I'm trying to say.

 
Why does this keep coming up?  Starting to open some things up is a long ways from getting back to normal.  When things start to open back up, and we're still a ways from that, it's going to be a long process.  I'd imagine it will start with certain parts of the country, maybe more rural or places less impacted by the virus.  Or it may be certain age groups,  I don't know.  That's well above my pay grade.  That's why I think discussions need to be happening now on the best way of starting the process, whenever that may be.
Discussions?  Of course.  Plans?  Without question.  

But this is a bad time to actually change behavior. Why?  Because, according to the data, there are more people with the virus now than when we started the quarantines.  

 
seriously.  what do you do when the 57 year-old with an underlying condition doesn't want to go back to work but his boss doesn't?  he's out of luck?
Maybe he can go out on disability, if a doctor will sign off that he's at high risk and medically unable to fulfill the duties of the job.

 
Navin Johnson said:
Germany traced the infection of patient zero to patient one via passing a salt shaker in the company canteen.
The article did not say that the salt shaker was the source of the contamination. It did imply that both turned towards each other

 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top