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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (11 Viewers)

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TobiasFunke said:
Part of the problem is people like you who are planning to vote third party or stay home. The polls make it clear that Clinton does much better if you remove third party candidates or if you use a "registered voters" screen instead of "likely voters."

If that's the choice you and others who agree with your perspective choose to make, so be it. But it's a little disingenuous to then marvel at the consequences of that choice.
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The problem is being provided the options of Trump or Hillary....that's the problem.  I did what I could to keep that from happening.  However, here we are.  Now it's on Hillary to get us on board, but she can't get out of her own way.  While we are all "part" of the problem, I am comfortable saying my "part" is significantly less than most.  My guy lost and now I have to find someone as close to my standard as possible.  It's on Hillary, Trump, Johnson etc to show me how close they are to that standard.

 
BeaverCleaver said:
That is how democracy works. The freedom to vote or not vote for anyone you want. Just because someone doesn't vote for Hillary means they are part of the problem. That is just typical liberal elitist thinking. 
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Of course you're free to vote or not vote for anyone you want.  You're also responsible for the consequences of that decision. That's exactly how democracy works, and is pretty much the opposite of "elitist" thinking. It's inclusive thinking. Everyone plays a part.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Of course you're free to vote or not vote for anyone you want.  You're also responsible for the consequences of that decision. That's exactly how democracy works, and is pretty much the opposite of "elitist" thinking. It's inclusive thinking. Everyone plays a part.
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Everyone does have the opportunity to play a part but the elitist thinking is blaming people that don't vote for the candidate you support.  

 
So, this is opportunity to have an actual discussion about this "my part" reality we all face.  What does this hierarchy look like to you guys when we are placing fault/blame to the parties involved....from the parties, to the candidates to the voters.......what does it look like to you guys?

 
The Commish said:
The problem is being provided the options of Trump or Hillary....that's the problem.  I did what I could to keep that from happening.  However, here we are.  Now it's on Hillary to get us on board, but she can't get out of her own way.  While we are all "part" of the problem, I am comfortable saying my "part" is significantly less than most.  My guy lost and now I have to find someone as close to my standard as possible.  It's on Hillary, Trump, Johnson etc to show me how close they are to that standard.
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Again with the passive voice.  You're not getting it. You had a role to play in those choices, too.  If I can accept that I would bear some measure of responsibility for Trump's win after railing against him for over a year, you can do the same for the choices provided by the primary process. Did you get out and campaign for your preferred candidate? Did you do all you could to win people over to him here and wherever else you might discuss politics with other people?  Did you attempt to reconcile wary Democrats with the prospect of someone who isn't even in the party winning its nomination for the presidency, or did you do the opposite and rail against the party?

As for the general election- if you choose to vote based on who is closest to your standard instead of based on how your vote would best serve the country's interests, that's obviously 100% your choice. But it doesn't absolve you of the consequences of that decision.

(also obviously I know a single vote isn't going to matter- I'm making the argument in the larger context, since polls show third parties are pulling more support from Clinton than Trump and thus boosting Trump's chances)

 
Probably the best reason I could think to vote for Trump would be seeing guys like Tobias completely meltdown if he wins.  :D

 
BeaverCleaver said:
Everyone does have the opportunity to play a part but the elitist thinking is blaming people that don't vote for the candidate you support.  
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You must have missed the part where I said everyone would be to blame if Trump wins, even the people who voted for Clinton, let alone those who vote third party or don't vote.

Whether you agree or not, that is pretty much the  polar opposite of elitist thinking.

 
  Can we get past the blame part? Commish, I will never blame you if Trump wins. You didn't vote for him, so you'll have nothing to do with his victory. 

But that being said, since you live in North Carolina, I really wish you would consider voting for Hillary. Your vote is relevant; mine is not. I'd gladly make a deal with you: if you vote for Hillary, I'll vote for Gary Johnson. Johnson is equally helped by a vote for him in California or North Carolina. But Hillary is helped so much more by your vote than mine. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
You must have missed the part where I said everyone would be to blame if Trump wins, even the people who voted for Clinton, let alone those who vote third party or don't vote.

Whether you agree or not, that is pretty much the  polar opposite of elitist thinking.
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And there are those that can say the same thing if Clinton wins. 

 
Hang 10 said:
Probably the best reason I could think to vote for Trump would be seeing guys like Tobias completely meltdown if he wins.  :D
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That's obviously pretty juvenile and stupid. But in the interest of spreading joy to my fellow FBGs, I'm happy to inform you that I melted down a long time ago about this stuff. Somewhere around March, when the levels of support for Trump forced me to confront the fact that this country isn't nearly as awesome as I've always thought it was.  So you don't need to wait until November for a meltdown, you can go ahead and celebrate now GB.

Also, Tim is right. "Blame" was the wrong word for me to use.  "Shares responsibility for" or something like that would have been better.

 
timschochet said:
  Can we get past the blame part? Commish, I will never blame you if Trump wins. You didn't vote for him, so you'll have nothing to do with his victory. 

But that being said, since you live in North Carolina, I really wish you would consider voting for Hillary. Your vote is relevant; mine is not. I'd gladly make a deal with you: if you vote for Hillary, I'll vote for Gary Johnson. Johnson is equally helped by a vote for him in California or North Carolina. But Hillary is helped so much more by your vote than mine. 
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This makes my NC vote for Trump so much sweeter.  Glad I was talked out of voting Johnson cause that was a wasted vote.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I noticed you deleted the key word there, "relatively."

They are important concerns.  If Clinton were running against a Romney/Ryan or McCain/not Palin ticket they would be significant enough that I would expect people to give them a lot of weight.

She is running against Donald ####ing Trump, and she is the only person between him and the presidency.  However sleazy and corrupt you think she might be, he's sleazier and more corrupt and worse than her in a hundred other different ways.  Relatively speaking, they don't matter.
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I think all that stuff matters a lot and any other year would disqualify her.  What irks me isn't that people (like you) qualify her problems as relatively minor compared to Trump--which is accurate--it's that there are people out there like Tim and squiz who deny in any absolute terms that there are any substantial problems.  That myopic--and quite frankly, idiotic--mindset is dangerous in the short term, but also sets the stage for problems in the long run.  If we fail to be critical and to think critically it fosters an environment favorable to the corruption Hillary and others engage in.  Her corruption isn't at the level of Trump's, but that doesn't negate the fact that she's corrupt.

 
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timschochet said:
  Can we get past the blame part? Commish, I will never blame you if Trump wins. You didn't vote for him, so you'll have nothing to do with his victory. 

But that being said, since you live in North Carolina, I really wish you would consider voting for Hillary. Your vote is relevant; mine is not. I'd gladly make a deal with you: if you vote for Hillary, I'll vote for Gary Johnson. Johnson is equally helped by a vote for him in California or North Carolina. But Hillary is helped so much more by your vote than mine. 
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Vote trading does not break federal law but is unlawful in California.

 
Hang 10 said:
Probably the best reason I could think to vote for Trump would be seeing guys like Tobias completely meltdown if he wins.  :D
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actually the best part isn't that.  the best part is our adversarial press and the "checks and balances" of government will actually suddenly restart.

 
Hang 10 said:
Probably the best reason I could think to vote for Trump would be seeing guys like Tobias completely meltdown if he wins.  :D
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Look at the last 8 years if you want an example of what would happen if Trump won.

The liberals would get hysterical, would panic and get worried and heap abuse on Trump for months and years, ridiculing his every move, ignoring anything good that he did, claim he's the worst president in history no matter what, etc.

 
shader said:
Look at the last 8 years if you want an example of what would happen if Trump won.

The liberals would get hysterical, would panic and get worried and heap abuse on Trump for months and years, ridiculing his every move, ignoring anything good that he did, claim he's the worst president in history no matter what, etc.
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That Donald would be the worst President in the history of the universe is a foregone conclusion.  The heaping of scorn and ridicule will definitely be applied to every ridiculous, dangerous, catastrophic idiocy he attempts.   Bank on it.  You're not going out on a limb here, shader.

 
Plenty of Clinton signs and shirts and bumper stickers in my neighborhood. Nothing about Trump, other than flyers on telephone poles and whatnot ridiculing him and calling him dangerous and asking people to come to rallies to protest his nearby hotel.

Of course I'm not naive enough to think my little corner of the world is somehow representative of the entire country, so I know that's meaningless.

 
MaxThreshold said:
Cenk Uygur is one of the shining examples of liberal media bias.  So...yeah...you're not really helping.  Not surprised you follow like a sheep.
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:lol:

Well, duh, of course he is. The Young Turks are a progressive opinion show and have never claimed to be anything else.

 
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I live in the gateway to Hillbilly Country in Maryland.  Those very large billboard style maga/Trump signs are plentiful and nary a hint of a Hillary sign.  I went to a party last weekend with some folks who grew up in this part of the state and I definitely kept my political views and opinions to myself out of fear of getting my ### kicked by a dozen or so "Lock Her Up" types.

 
The false equivalences just on this page are outstanding. And more confirmation that those who can just "have a joke" with this are voting for Trump. Reasons like "it'll be great, so and so will melt down" and "finally checks and balances". Reinforces the intellect we're dealing with.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Plenty of Clinton signs and shirts and bumper stickers in my neighborhood. Nothing about Trump, other than flyers on telephone poles and whatnot ridiculing him and calling him dangerous and asking people to come to rallies to protest his nearby hotel.

Of course I'm not naive enough to think my little corner of the world is somehow representative of the entire country, so I know that's meaningless.
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:shrug:   plenty of Trump/Pence signs in my neighborhood, cant say that I have seen any shirts or bumper stickers - no Clinton signs, shirts or bumperstickers

 
TobiasFunke said:
Did you get out and campaign for your preferred candidate?
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yes

TobiasFunke said:
Did you do all you could to win people over to him here and wherever else you might discuss politics with other people?
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Pretty vague question, but I think so :oldunsure:

TobiasFunke said:
Did you attempt to reconcile wary Democrats with the prospect of someone who isn't even in the party winning its nomination for the presidency
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Not sure what this means, but I know I can't change minds.  All I can do is provide information to people so they can make as informed a decision as possible.  I don't rail against parties typically....I rail against policies and candidates.  The most effective action I took during the primary cycle was digging out the 2012 platform and asking people to read it and determine who, of the possible candidates we had as options, best fit that platform and what it said from top to bottom.  It's laughable how many people stopped in their tracks when the realization hit them.  

TobiasFunke said:
As for the general election- if you choose to vote based on who is closest to your standard instead of based on how your vote would best serve the country's interests, that's obviously 100% your choice. But it doesn't absolve you of the consequences of that decision.
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This isn't either/or especially in this case....there's not a thread of my being that thinks my voting for either of these two is in the best interest of the country.

ETA:  And I have said a million times that I DO have a part in the result.  What I disagree with is what that "part" is in meaningful terms.  Quite frankly, I am tired of being told my vote means something it doesn't or that my level of responsibility is on par with those who are actively supporting these two clowns.  It's not.  I did what I could to prevent this from happening.  I was all in during the primaries.  I went to as many events in my area as possible and engaged people the as much as I could.  I donated money for the first time ever in my life.  Yeah, I did my part to prevent Hillary vs Trump.  My responsibility ends where the general begins as far as I'm concerned.  Trump and Hillary are the beds their supporters and the parties created.  I had no part in it.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
No, we should definitely discuss it a lot more. I think being able to say "I told you so" to a bunch of strangers on the internet is way more important than trying to stop a bigoted buffoonish conspiracy theorist with no foreign policy experience and no intellectual curiosity from becoming president of the United States.

In all seriousness, this is not a bad poll for Clinton.  I expected a lot worse, as I explained yesterday:

I honestly thought she'd be losing by 2-4 points, not tied in a four way poll- and leading in the same poll if it's two way (46-44) or if you use registered voters instead of likely voters (46-41). 
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You got to be working for her campaign.  Talk about lowering expectations.

 
Compared to the two previous elections since I've lived in Austin, I'm floored by the almost complete lack of yard signs.  People don't want to display support for either of these people.  This day in '08 I'd see thousands of signs on a drive.  Fewer in '12, but not by a huge margin.  Now -- I may see a dozen.  It's really that small in comparison.

Tim - did you order ALL the Hillary signs.  Are they all in your yard?

 
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timschochet said:
  Can we get past the blame part? Commish, I will never blame you if Trump wins. You didn't vote for him, so you'll have nothing to do with his victory. 

But that being said, since you live in North Carolina, I really wish you would consider voting for Hillary. Your vote is relevant; mine is not. I'd gladly make a deal with you: if you vote for Hillary, I'll vote for Gary Johnson. Johnson is equally helped by a vote for him in California or North Carolina. But Hillary is helped so much more by your vote than mine. 
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I don't live in SC at the moment...it IS my home state though.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Plenty of Clinton signs and shirts and bumper stickers in my neighborhood. Nothing about Trump, other than flyers on telephone poles and whatnot ridiculing him and calling him dangerous and asking people to come to rallies to protest his nearby hotel.

Of course I'm not naive enough to think my little corner of the world is somehow representative of the entire country, so I know that's meaningless.
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I didn't see any Hillary signs but I did a single Trump sign, the one in this picture.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/4dizky/my_yard_sign_has_finally_arrived/

 
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Mr. Ham said:
Compared to the two previous elections since I've lived in Austin, I'm floored by the almost complete lack of yard signs.  People don't want to display support for either of these people.  This day in '08 I'd see thousands of signs on a drive.  Fewer in '12, but not by a huge margin.  Now -- I may see a dozen.  It's really that small in comparison.

Tim - did you order ALL the Hillary signs.  Are they all in your yard?
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:lmao:

 
The Commish said:
This isn't either/or especially in this case....there's not a thread of my being that thinks my voting for either of these two is in the best interest of the country.
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Then either every thread of your being is in denial about the >99% chance that one of them is going be the next president, or the threads all think they're equally bad for the nation's interests. Either way I hope some of those threads will reconsider. Muchas gracias. Time for me to check out for a while.

 
it really is surprising- I drive through an affluent neighborhood near my office that I remember was all Obama signs the last election, and there are a few Trump signs and zero Hillary signs..   I see Trump signs out in the more rural areas everywhere, usually accompanied by a US flag, but sitting in front of a 500K houses was  :shock:

 
TobiasFunke said:
Then either every thread of your being is in denial about the >99% chance that one of them is going be the next president, or the threads all think they're equally bad for the nation's interests. Either way I hope some of those threads will reconsider. Muchas gracias. Time for me to check out for a while.
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I am fully aware that one of them is going to be President.  What I don't buy is the "you gotta pick one"....bull####, no I don't.  

The "equally bad" nonsense is just that...nonsense.  Are they equal?  No....doesn't change the fact that they are so laughably bad the only thing that is accomplished by electing them is an epic lowering of the bar.  Think about this for a second....next Presidential election cycle is going to be the bar of Hillary vs GOP idiot de jour.  The last election cycle was Obama vs Romney.......I'm not sure we can dig any deeper.  It's absurd.

 
Parrothead said:
it really is surprising- I drive through an affluent neighborhood near my office that I remember was all Obama signs the last election, and there are a few Trump signs and zero Hillary signs..   I see Trump signs out in the more rural areas everywhere, usually accompanied by a US flag, but sitting in front of a 500K houses was  :shock:
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I live in a two very liberal areas and have yet to see a Clinton sign.  Once I leave the city I see a few Trump signs.

 
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