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***OFFICIAL*** Minnesota Vikings 2016 Season Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter snogger
- Start date
Biabreakable
Footballguy
That is what people said about us playing against the Bears on Monday. I do think the Lions are a better overall team than the Bears.
Until the Vikings start blocking some one no game is easy or winnable.
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
jestertj
Footballguy
If the "different views" that have been reported have anything to do with keeping more blockers in or helping OTs, I wouldn't be surprised if that meant more TE help blocking. Would think that wouldn't help Rudolph, but don't expect his production to dry up.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
They need to give the tackles more help blocking. That is pretty obvious. So I would expect that to mean Rudolph would be releasing on pass routes less frequently and the RBs as well.
Now the draw back to this turteling up is that defenders will crowd the box more and the offense will invite more blitzing. I think we are pretty used to seeing that. So the offense still has to open up somewhat to keep the defense guessing.
I see the change benefiting the receivers more in terms of opportunities, at expense of the TE and RBs.
Norv Turner offenses have incorperated the TE and RB in the passing game more than an average NFL team based on looking at those numbers for offenses under his direction. Maybe Andy Reid uses the RB and TE more, I haven't compared that, but most other offenses have not used the TE and RB in the passing game as much as Norv has in his long career.
Now the draw back to this turteling up is that defenders will crowd the box more and the offense will invite more blitzing. I think we are pretty used to seeing that. So the offense still has to open up somewhat to keep the defense guessing.
I see the change benefiting the receivers more in terms of opportunities, at expense of the TE and RBs.
Norv Turner offenses have incorperated the TE and RB in the passing game more than an average NFL team based on looking at those numbers for offenses under his direction. Maybe Andy Reid uses the RB and TE more, I haven't compared that, but most other offenses have not used the TE and RB in the passing game as much as Norv has in his long career.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
Meh, it's obvious Turner had nothing in his repertoire for this OL. He clearly would run the ball up the gut and call 20 yard routes until the cows come home. Worse, he's been rightfully scrutinized for predictable patterns in play calling, which makes his plays even less likely to succeed. It brings to mind the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. I actually would love to keep Turner with the right personnel. This ain't it.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Well if Norv was not involved with coaching the offensive linemen then will Norv retiring solve this issue?
I don't think it does.
I have to wonder somewhat how Zimmer feels about his partner quitting mid season. Because I know he didn't like it when that happened before. I think Zimmer may have put too much trust in Norv and the other offensive coaches and a more hands on approach may be needed for things to change.
I am sure Zimmer puts on a good face when asked about it.. but the timing does not seem good.
Still a bunch of linemen who don't know how to block and most of who have been with the team for more than one season, so they should know what those players can and can't do by now. Fusco was worse than previous games and Boone left the game early.
Zimmer making statements about the players that they do not prove in practice. Several of them now. Such as them being resilient and so on have not been true. Even the OC is packing it in.
I don't think it does.
I have to wonder somewhat how Zimmer feels about his partner quitting mid season. Because I know he didn't like it when that happened before. I think Zimmer may have put too much trust in Norv and the other offensive coaches and a more hands on approach may be needed for things to change.
I am sure Zimmer puts on a good face when asked about it.. but the timing does not seem good.
Still a bunch of linemen who don't know how to block and most of who have been with the team for more than one season, so they should know what those players can and can't do by now. Fusco was worse than previous games and Boone left the game early.
Zimmer making statements about the players that they do not prove in practice. Several of them now. Such as them being resilient and so on have not been true. Even the OC is packing it in.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I don't think Turner resigning solves the OL issue in the slightest. Solving the OL doesn't seem like a realistic immediate goal when you see the guys on that unit being ran through and/or being pushed backward right off the snap. JMHO, the immediate goal should be to accept our futile state at OL and mask it as much as humanly possible. Predictably running up the gut on 1st, and then trying to run 20 yard passing routes on consequentially obvious passing downs was not masking the weakness. It was exacerbating the weakness, because the OL was being asked to do what its incapable of doing for success. Maybe the mask is passing 50% of the time on 1st. Maybe the mask is just plain quicker pass routs. Maybe it is running off the edge with a pulling guard. One way or another they need to get to the point that every defender on the field doesn't know exactly what to defend, and how to attack the OL.
snogger
Footballguy
The problem was that Norv didn't want to adjust his game plan to what he had.. His way of coaching works great if you have a lead RB and a top notch OL who can give your QB time to hit the 20+ deep passes..
This team does not have either one and he wouldn't adjust to that.. and thus it was time to say
to Norv.My hope is they switch to quick outs, sweep runs, screens, etc... I'll take 10+ play drives with 5 to 10 yard completions over run, pass deep, run, punt.
Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
Eagles fan here. I think you guys might. Be better off with Sherman being the OC. He's attached to the hip with Bradford. If Tunrer really was forcing his scheme without adjusting to the actual roster than hopefully this will be a better fit for you.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Norv!1
I just wish that the play calling and its mesh with the offensive players capabilities were the only problem.
The offensive line was really bad last year and they had a whole offseason to try to fix it, yet here we are playing TJ Clemmings a lot still.
Sam Bradford did say they need to go back to what was working during the first five weeks. The offense has been really off since then, so possibly some things changed that shouldn't have.
I just wish that the play calling and its mesh with the offensive players capabilities were the only problem.
The offensive line was really bad last year and they had a whole offseason to try to fix it, yet here we are playing TJ Clemmings a lot still.
Sam Bradford did say they need to go back to what was working during the first five weeks. The offense has been really off since then, so possibly some things changed that shouldn't have.
mr roboto
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
As bad as Kalil was, Long is worse.
As bad as Loadholt was (at least at pass blocking), Smith was worse and Clemmings is worse yet.
Boone hasn't been worth the money.
I think Spielman did the best he could. It simply hasn't worked.
As bad as Loadholt was (at least at pass blocking), Smith was worse and Clemmings is worse yet.
Boone hasn't been worth the money.
I think Spielman did the best he could. It simply hasn't worked.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
And I thought in spot duty Sirles hasn't looked horrible. Also, Austin Shepherd is back on the PS and he wasn't horrible last year...I think they have to look at starting those two guys at tackle.Andy Dufresne said:
And if Fusco continues to get dominated, then look at Easton at center and move Berger to guard.
CanadianNFLJunkie
Footballguy
Not sure I'd say Boone has been bad, as it seemed most of the short yardage runs were right behind him. What I don't understand is why we haven't seen a lot more 2 or 3 TE formations. With all this phrase of Pruitt and Morgan let's see them help out pass blocking and then be the safety valve if Diggs and company aren't open yet. I'm expecting to see a more fast paced offense with less personnel being used on Offense. HOPEFULLY we won't be more of the run on 1st and 2nd down and then try to pass on 3rd n long then punt and play field position. Sure it could work when you had a crappy team but I want a little flare and flavour and not be as predictable on Offense.
swampdog
Footballguy
How will Shurmur handle the Vikings? Here is a good description of his 2nd stint with the Eagles. Looks like he could really liven up the Vikings offense. Which will greatly help the above average defense.
"On January 20, 2013, Shurmur accepted a job with the Philadelphia Eagles as their offensive coordinator.[6] Working alongside new head coach Chip Kelly, Shurmur helped orchestrate one of the most efficient offenses in the NFL. Shurmur led an offense that set a number of team records, including points (442), total net yards (6,676), touchdowns (53), passing yards (4,406) and fewest turnovers (19) en route to an NFC East title. Additionally, the Eagles set an NFL record with 99 plays of 20+ yards and became the first team since the 1991 Buffalo Bills to lead the league in rushing while ranking last in time of possession.[1]
Shurmur’s unique ability to develop young talent at the quarterback position was once again on display in 2013. Second-year QB Nick Foles enjoyed a breakout season under the direction of Shurmur, throwing for 27 touchdowns and only two interceptions while posting the third-best QB rating (119.2) and third-lowest interception percentage (0.63%) in NFL history. Foles also became just the second player in league history to throw for seven touchdowns in a game during a match-up against the Oakland Raiders, and one of three who have done so without throwing an interception.[1]
Head coach[SIZE=small][[/SIZE]edit]
Shurmur was named interim head coach after Chip Kelly was fired on December 29, 2015.[7] Shurmur's one game was a 35-30 win over the Giants that was for 2nd place in the NFC East. The Eagles offense gained 435 yards of total offense and scored four touchdowns, highlighted by DeMarco Murray running for a 54 yard touchdown in his first carry under Shurmur. Shurmur interviewed for the Eagles head coaching job and was considered one of the leading candidates until the end, but he lost out to Chiefs offensive coordinator Doug Pederson." From Wikipedia....
"On January 20, 2013, Shurmur accepted a job with the Philadelphia Eagles as their offensive coordinator.[6] Working alongside new head coach Chip Kelly, Shurmur helped orchestrate one of the most efficient offenses in the NFL. Shurmur led an offense that set a number of team records, including points (442), total net yards (6,676), touchdowns (53), passing yards (4,406) and fewest turnovers (19) en route to an NFC East title. Additionally, the Eagles set an NFL record with 99 plays of 20+ yards and became the first team since the 1991 Buffalo Bills to lead the league in rushing while ranking last in time of possession.[1]
Shurmur’s unique ability to develop young talent at the quarterback position was once again on display in 2013. Second-year QB Nick Foles enjoyed a breakout season under the direction of Shurmur, throwing for 27 touchdowns and only two interceptions while posting the third-best QB rating (119.2) and third-lowest interception percentage (0.63%) in NFL history. Foles also became just the second player in league history to throw for seven touchdowns in a game during a match-up against the Oakland Raiders, and one of three who have done so without throwing an interception.[1]
Head coach[SIZE=small][[/SIZE]edit]
Shurmur was named interim head coach after Chip Kelly was fired on December 29, 2015.[7] Shurmur's one game was a 35-30 win over the Giants that was for 2nd place in the NFC East. The Eagles offense gained 435 yards of total offense and scored four touchdowns, highlighted by DeMarco Murray running for a 54 yard touchdown in his first carry under Shurmur. Shurmur interviewed for the Eagles head coaching job and was considered one of the leading candidates until the end, but he lost out to Chiefs offensive coordinator Doug Pederson." From Wikipedia....
BigJim®
Footballguy
Honestly, I think you should throw prior accomplishments out the window. Success for Shurmur in 2016 should be measured by whether he can keep Bradford off I/R and whether he can improve on production of the Turner offense.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Boone hasn't been good. I think Fusco has failed more blocks than him but Boone has been beaten several times as well. Boone has also exited early in two out of seven games.
The TE have been injured. I think Rudolph was the only one healthy for the Texans game. Pruitt has been dealing with an injury for most of the season and only played sparingly. Ellison and the rookie Morgan have missed time with injuries as well.
Snap counts
82-K.Rudolph MIN TE 464 435 94.6%
85-R.Ellison MIN TE 156 83 18.0%
89-D.Morgan MIN TE 63 42 9.1%
83-M.Pruitt MIN TE 32 23 5.0%
As you can see Pruitt and Morgan have barely played and Ellison has played less than half as many snaps as last season when he was in on 46% of the Vikings offensive plays. It made sense to have Ellison play that much last season because he was their best blocker on the outside, maybe you grade Berger better than Ellison but no one else.
Ellison had a PCL injury late last season that is a difficult injury to come back from.
The play calling is something I have not analyzed but I do believe the percentage of runs on 1st down has been too high. The Vikings had the highest percentage of runs on 1st down last season.IIRC.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Beating the ‘Blueprint’
I do think changing up the play selection by down and distance can help. That was certainly making life easier for the opposing defense. As Sam Bradford points out though, it still comes down to execution. They need to be able to block the other team at least some of the time for the offense to be successful.
While I agree with Wludfords overall point, the Vikings have run outside at times, just perhaps not as often as they should. Hillmans runs last week were of the outside variety.
I do think changing up the play selection by down and distance can help. That was certainly making life easier for the opposing defense. As Sam Bradford points out though, it still comes down to execution. They need to be able to block the other team at least some of the time for the offense to be successful.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Aisata isn't going to be an outside the tackles runner.
However, I don't think it's coincidence they've struggled the two weeks McKinnon has been out.
However, I don't think it's coincidence they've struggled the two weeks McKinnon has been out.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
I feel like that Spielman made some terrible decisions starting with the decision to pay Adrian Peterson's ransom demands after his suspension. Running backs should be on the lower end of the pay scale in the modern game. It is not a secret all the good teams know this.
Second, I don't think I will forgive him for going all in on Sam Bradford. It not that Sam has played bad but he should have known that the Oline isn't capable of supporting him after watching them the past 3 seasons. Vikings are 5-2 but I feel like the season is over and I can't even look forward to the draft.
snogger
Footballguy
It is quite cool that it "looks" like the game is outside with the translucent roof and the sun shining down on the players and fans..
Speaking of which... I wonder how much "hotter" it feels on the visitor's sideline since they are on the "Sun side" and whether that impacts the players as the game goes on
Speaking of which... I wonder how much "hotter" it feels on the visitor's sideline since they are on the "Sun side" and whether that impacts the players as the game goes on
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I agree on paying AP. Should have let him go.
But I don't think it would have made much sense to watch Shaun Hill play all this year just so you could be in position to draft a lineman next year.
snogger
Footballguy
and I thought the last two games sucked... To be up by 3 with 23 seconds left and the other team has no timeouts there is NO excuse to lose this game.. But they decided to "play it safe" and rush only 3.. and it cost them not only the game, but could be the season.. This team relied too heavily on the Defense to continue to bail them out and it is showing now.
With the way they are playing, they could lose the next 4, to run the streak to 7 straight losses.. At Washington, Home vs. Cards, At Lions on Thanksgiving, Home vs. Cowboys..
With the way they are playing, they could lose the next 4, to run the streak to 7 straight losses.. At Washington, Home vs. Cards, At Lions on Thanksgiving, Home vs. Cowboys..
snogger
Footballguy
Not making a move for a QB would have told the entire team "there is always next year".. Regardless of how the rest of the season plays out, the move to get a starting QB was needed if you wanted the team to even attempt to compete..Also, people seem to forget that before the season began, the Vikings Offensive Line was ranked as a top 10, and in some opinions a Top 5 OL in the NFl.. Injuries decimated the OL to make them a bottom 5 now.
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CanadianNFLJunkie
Footballguy
Disappointed in that Zim refused to blitz in until late in the game. Was it because of the 40 yard run early on in the game? Can't be since we were blitzing in O/T. Hate to say it but please get a new kicker next year. Walsh, you're done. Your head is all messed up, so he needs a new start and we need a new kicker
Donnybrook
Footballguy
He could have signed Nick Foles but didn't want to spend the money. Bradford's contract gives him all the leverage and the Vikings have to negotiate a contract next year. I still think it will end up being a 1st and a 3rd for 1 year rental. I rather be saying "there is always next year" rather than have the franchise set back several years.
Enjoy watching Bradford as they go 1-2 in the division.
snogger
Footballguy
Yea, expected you to be back patting yourself on the back after disappearing for the first 5 games..
and had they spent the money on Foles, they'd have had no money at all for the OL. and as bad as it is with what they pulled of the scrap yard, it would be even worse without them and Noles would probably be on IR right now..
and do you REALLY think they set the team back "Several years" by not having a 1st round draft pick next year ??
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Donnybrook
Footballguy
KC signed Foles for 1.75 Million and the Vikings somehow came up with 7 million to signed Bradford They could have pursued Foles more aggressively since they didn't have a 3rd QB. The problem is they are paying ADP 15 million. I know that things kind of snowballed this year but it was a terrible gamble and he lost.Yea, expected you to be back patting yourself on the back after disappearing for the first 5 games..
and had they spent the money on Foles, they'd have had no money at all for the OL. and as bad as it is with what they pulled of the scrap yard, it would be even worse without them and Noles would probably be on IR right now..
and do you REALLY think they set the team back "Several years" by not having a 1st round draft pick next year ??
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Good news is the Vikings actually blocked the defense a bit more in this game. Bad news is the defense forgot how to tackle. Harrison Smith of all people gave up some key plays that helped the Lions win this game.
Division opponents know how to attack match ups like Greenway a bit better than other teams I think. Greenway played pretty well though.
Barr missed some tackles that bothered me.
Clemmings did fail some pass protections badly in the first half. For the most part Jake Long played ok?
The game felt a bit like Lucy holding the ball for Charlie Brown. Victory usually within reach, but just missing by narrow margins. For example the failed 3rd and short as well as 4th and short runs by Asiata. The missed extra point. The missed field goal. The clock management not being precise. Penalty on Rhodes on 3rd and 10 extending the drive.
I suppose the team could continue to tail spin, but I saw some signs of life from the offensive line. The offensive play calling was unpredictable to me and some new wrinkles such as Joseph coming in at the goal line.
Division opponents know how to attack match ups like Greenway a bit better than other teams I think. Greenway played pretty well though.
Barr missed some tackles that bothered me.
Clemmings did fail some pass protections badly in the first half. For the most part Jake Long played ok?
The game felt a bit like Lucy holding the ball for Charlie Brown. Victory usually within reach, but just missing by narrow margins. For example the failed 3rd and short as well as 4th and short runs by Asiata. The missed extra point. The missed field goal. The clock management not being precise. Penalty on Rhodes on 3rd and 10 extending the drive.
I suppose the team could continue to tail spin, but I saw some signs of life from the offensive line. The offensive play calling was unpredictable to me and some new wrinkles such as Joseph coming in at the goal line.
snogger
Footballguy
I agree on the ADP money.. Really have to hope some team out there desperate for a RB will work with us to get him to restructure and trade for him.. Heck at this point, if they got a couple draft picks for him they'd be stealing
snogger
Footballguy
23 seconds is what is going to come back and hunt them the rest of the year.. For a second there I thought they brought back Dennis Green for his predictable "Coach not to lose" mentality. That is not "Zimmer" like...
Donnybrook
Footballguy
snogger
Footballguy
It all depends on Bridgewater recovery in the off season.. Some reports have him recovering well, others say he might be lucky to play again.. I would say March of 2017 will be the time to watch.. If Teddy isn't showing significant improvement, they'll sign Bradford to an extension.
jestertj
Footballguy
He'll never be the same again, even if he does play, which I highly doubt.It all depends on Bridgewater recovery in the off season.. Some reports have him recovering well, others say he might be lucky to play again.. I would say March of 2017 will be the time to watch.. If Teddy isn't showing significant improvement, they'll sign Bradford to an extension.
jestertj
Footballguy
He'll never be the same again, even if he does play, which I highly doubt.It all depends on Bridgewater recovery in the off season.. Some reports have him recovering well, others say he might be lucky to play again.. I would say March of 2017 will be the time to watch.. If Teddy isn't showing significant improvement, they'll sign Bradford to an extension.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
There are still a lot of games to play before making a decision about Bradford. I think the odds are higher than a coin flip that he gets an extended contract with the Vikings as they see if Teddy can come back and how well. It is possible Teddy gets healthy to play again but isn't as mobile as he once was, I think the Vikings need insurance for a scenario where Teddy cannot get back next season or ever. It is too soon to know how small a chance Teddy has to recover well enough to play again. If Teddy does recover, then it is a nice problem to have. Pretty sure I already said all of that after the trade for Bradford though.
There are still another 8 games to evaluate before RIck has to make this decision. I am pretty sure an extension was considered before they made the trade.
I doubt Nick Foles would have been any better than Hill, so kind of pointless applying captain hindsight powers towards that being a better solution.
There are still another 8 games to evaluate before RIck has to make this decision. I am pretty sure an extension was considered before they made the trade.
I doubt Nick Foles would have been any better than Hill, so kind of pointless applying captain hindsight powers towards that being a better solution.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Cyclops has been off lately. He said so himself.23 seconds is what is going to come back and hunt them the rest of the year.. For a second there I thought they brought back Dennis Green for his predictable "Coach not to lose" mentality. That is not "Zimmer" like...
BigJim®
Footballguy
Agreed. The timeout with 27 seconds to go and only needing time to throw a couple do-or-die 2 yard passes was strange. The prevent defense when you've allowed 111 passing all days and they need 35 was bizarre. I thought we were past the years of coaching believing the prevent works. It's unfortunate that players not doing their jobs are putting Zimmer in a position to have his own costly brain farts.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
You can win with good defense and special teams by kicking field goals, if your kicker is reliable.Phone calls have to be already going out to FA kickers... right?
Speilman wants all of his draft picks to pan out, so there is a long leash and sometimes it works out. For example Locke sure has been punting better this season.
The Vikings need a more reliable kicker for the rest of the strategy to work though. Both missed kicks certainly impacted the result of the game.
sports_fan
Footballguy
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