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Really
I'm not expecting Rodger's like numbers, but improvement would be nice.
but right now I don't see it.
Sadly, I agree with this. I'd posted in the 2012 season thread a list of QBs who were drafted in rounds 1-2 over the past decade, and based on that it seemed pretty clear a QB shows early on that he has 'it', or doesn't. I think the theory that a light comes on for a QB is a fallacy, and teams who stand by QBs like David Carr and Joey Harrington waste years delaying the inevitable. If you've drafted the next Matt Lienart/Patrick Ramsey/Jamarcus Russell, you are almost always best off moving on quickly rather than wallowing in your fate - and don't worry about untapped potential or that they are going to become someone else's star. It just never happens. Regardless of circumstances, guys who have it, show it. The only counter example I could find was Drew Brees, who is not comparable to Ponder.
Sign me up, sounds good. I have to admit though that BPA is probably still the best way to approach the draft. Would love to see Alex Smith come here but would they have to promise him the job? I bet thats what it would take.
What I saw from Ponder this season was better than how he played as a rookie. Ponder works hard to get better. The weight he put on over the offseason, and his play proved that early on in the season and in the last 3 games of the season before he was injured. Ponder played his best football when it mattered most, that is what I like to see.The offense is really lacking weapons in the passing game. Rudolph like Ponder were only in their 2nd seasons. Ponder performed much better statistically when Harvin was healthy. Wright did a good job and made some great plays in those last 3 games but there was an adjustment period for the offense after losing Harvin. Ponder had bad games before Harvin was injured but obviously losing his best weapon did not help Ponder get the ball to Wright as often or as well as he was getting the ball to Harvin. That took awhile, Wright was still on the practice squad until Harvin got injured. It took some time for timing with Wright to be found. The offensive game plan is very conservative by design. Many of the planned throws are very safe plays, the main goal is to not turn over the ball. The game plan and coaching does limit the numbers one might be expecting a starting QB in the pass heavy NFL to get in a season. Funkley says Ponder is a throw back of 40 years well it has been nearly that long since a RB got as many yards as Peterson too. The Vikings are a run 1st team. It is by design. With this type of offense and the lack of a big play deep threat to keep defenses honest Ponder was often under a lot of pressure right up the middle (Johnson/Fusco)from the run blitzes designed to help the defense get to Peterson before he can get started. Recievers would just not get open at times and Rudolph could be taken away with a double team after Harvin was injured.I am not saying that Ponder is the long term answer either. He may be better suited as a good back up QB in the end but I think Ponder is the best the Vikings have so I support him. I would rather hope for the best than to be sure of the worst since I have a choice about how to look at it.
When Ponder came out weren't the scouts and the Vikings telling us that of his draft class he might be the QB most ready to contribute as a rookie?I defended Ponder for the first half of this season, but after he went on that bad run it was impossible to dispute how bad every throw was. As bad as the QB situation has been here for the last 10-12 years, I've never been so happy every time a QB completes a pass (let alone makes a good throw allowing YAC) the way I was the last 1/2 of this season with Ponder....he was that bad. So to answer your question, I think people aren't focusing on the good because most people feel that his good games were just average games at best and only appeared to be good because he lowered our expectations so much.If you've ever been on KFAN's Rube Chat though you probably get the feeling that Vikings fans are some of the most negative people on the face of the earth. Good lord is that place unbearable...it's like the government rounded up the inbred hicks that migrated north and put them all in a trailer park together.'Biabreakable said:I think perhaps some of the negative nancy stuff around here may be wearing me down.The way I see it is that Ponder was a project when the Vikings drafted him. Many said the pick was a reach and time may end up proving that to be true or it might not. Despite that I have seen Ponder make progress and get better over the season. Particularly when it mattered most. Ponder made some nice throws in those last 3 games and he made some good throws early on in the season as well. As good as these performances were for him the games that snogger points out were very bad. So why is it the focus on when Ponder struggled? When Ponder and the whole team played poorly (except for Peterson, blocks for Peterson)while ignoring when Ponder played well? To me this is mostly just a difference in attitude/perspective on the situation.
This is a good point. The whole reason the Vikings liked Ponder over guys like Tannehill and Dalton was they felt he was ready to come in and start from day 1(remember they didn't have McNabb when they drafted him). He was always thought of as a game manager type with limited upside but the whole reason he looked good to the team was that he was "pro-ready" which is what they needed at the time. The truth about Ponder was that they never envisioned him ever becoming an elite QB in the league. They thought he would become a good QB, but wouldn't take as long to get there as you would expect from a rookie QB. Well, if the new spin is that we just need to give him time to develop, then he isn't the type of QB anyone should want on their team. He will never be elite. He doesn't have the talent to be. I personally don't think the Vikings should waste time "developing" a guy who we hope can be a game manager. That's not a formula for success IMO.When Ponder came out weren't the scouts and the Vikings telling us that of his draft class he might be the QB most ready to contribute as a rookie?I defended Ponder for the first half of this season, but after he went on that bad run it was impossible to dispute how bad every throw was. As bad as the QB situation has been here for the last 10-12 years, I've never been so happy every time a QB completes a pass (let alone makes a good throw allowing YAC) the way I was the last 1/2 of this season with Ponder....he was that bad. So to answer your question, I think people aren't focusing on the good because most people feel that his good games were just average games at best and only appeared to be good because he lowered our expectations so much.If you've ever been on KFAN's Rube Chat though you probably get the feeling that Vikings fans are some of the most negative people on the face of the earth. Good lord is that place unbearable...it's like the government rounded up the inbred hicks that migrated north and put them all in a trailer park together.'Biabreakable said:I think perhaps some of the negative nancy stuff around here may be wearing me down.The way I see it is that Ponder was a project when the Vikings drafted him. Many said the pick was a reach and time may end up proving that to be true or it might not. Despite that I have seen Ponder make progress and get better over the season. Particularly when it mattered most. Ponder made some nice throws in those last 3 games and he made some good throws early on in the season as well. As good as these performances were for him the games that snogger points out were very bad. So why is it the focus on when Ponder struggled? When Ponder and the whole team played poorly (except for Peterson, blocks for Peterson)while ignoring when Ponder played well? To me this is mostly just a difference in attitude/perspective on the situation.
Could not agree more....you don't groom a game manager by playing him week after week as your unquestioned starter, you go out and sign a vet that is "just good enough to get the job done" when called upon. Maybe you only brought him in to compete and mentor a young guy if he loses the battle in training camp, but having a project with an arm (MBT) behind a project who's athletic (Webb) behind a rookie/2nd year who's a game manager (Ponder) is just not a recipe for success IMO. Side note: Frazier saying week after week that he never even considered pulling Ponder from a game in which he had 60 yards passing after 3 quarters made me sick.
I was you... a few years back.. I spent many a day talking about T.J.'s strength's, his work attitude, his dedication, his practices and kept saying " You need to patient, he is getting better"...'Biabreakable said:I think perhaps some of the negative nancy stuff around here may be wearing me down.The way I see it is that Ponder was a project when the Vikings drafted him. Many said the pick was a reach and time may end up proving that to be true or it might not. Despite that I have seen Ponder make progress and get better over the season. Particularly when it mattered most. Ponder made some nice throws in those last 3 games and he made some good throws early on in the season as well. As good as these performances were for him the games that snogger points out were very bad. So why is it the focus on when Ponder struggled? When Ponder and the whole team played poorly (except for Peterson, blocks for Peterson)while ignoring when Ponder played well? To me this is mostly just a difference in attitude/perspective on the situation.
They aren't though. Alex Smith IS a game manager. Ponder is a guy who might develop into an effective game manager. If Alex Smith is who we're hoping Ponder becomes, then it makes more sense to just get the guy who is already at that level.I agree on taking a chance on a guy though. Vikings fans probably are scared of that due to the memory of TJack, but just because one attempt at a home run failed doesn't mean we shouldn't take more swings.
I am not sure it does. What is the purpose of that so we can lose in the 2nd round of the playoffs rather than the 1st? How much of Smith success can be attributed to the 49ers simply being a stronger overall team than the Vikings?Would Smith even want to come to the Vikings if he wasn't guaranteed to be the starter? He might prefer to go elsewhere with less competition.
I prefer veteran backup if given a choice. They need someone to mentor and push Ponder, not a rookie. I'm not opposed to both if there is a rookie they love. Then get rid of both Webb and MBT.
Huh?
Well that is a thing to consider also, is that the Vikings were not able to install much of their game plan in 2011 because of the CBA not being settled until after the Nfl draft. Frazier has made a pretty big deal about what a difference it made for the Vikings to be able to run their offseason program and how that set a foundation for how the Vikings played this season. In 2011 everything was behind schedule. Ponder still beat out a declining McNabb but Ponder was pretty much raw his whole rookie season, if the Vikings had been able to do their preseason program with Ponder in 2011 maybe he would have seemed more NFl ready as a rookie than he was, maybe he would be further along in his development by now, but that didn't happen and Ponder didn't really play enough in 2011 for me to consider him experienced going into the 2012 season.I think Ponder is the Vikings best option the Vikings have and well worth developing even if that ultimately means Ponder is better suited as a back up QB and the Vikings go with someone else. I do not see why Alex Smith would be a better option than Ponder. Smith has failed more than Ponder has over his career and only recently has he had a supporting cast of a quality to make Smith look better than he was only a few seasons ago. Why is it that some of you Viking fans would welcome Alex Smith to be the same game manager type QB that Ponder is while at the same time having no confidence in Ponder being able to do as well as Smith would?This is a good point. The whole reason the Vikings liked Ponder over guys like Tannehill and Dalton was they felt he was ready to come in and start from day 1(remember they didn't have McNabb when they drafted him). He was always thought of as a game manager type with limited upside but the whole reason he looked good to the team was that he was "pro-ready" which is what they needed at the time. The truth about Ponder was that they never envisioned him ever becoming an elite QB in the league. They thought he would become a good QB, but wouldn't take as long to get there as you would expect from a rookie QB. Well, if the new spin is that we just need to give him time to develop, then he isn't the type of QB anyone should want on their team. He will never be elite. He doesn't have the talent to be. I personally don't think the Vikings should waste time "developing" a guy who we hope can be a game manager. That's not a formula for success IMO.When Ponder came out weren't the scouts and the Vikings telling us that of his draft class he might be the QB most ready to contribute as a rookie?I defended Ponder for the first half of this season, but after he went on that bad run it was impossible to dispute how bad every throw was. As bad as the QB situation has been here for the last 10-12 years, I've never been so happy every time a QB completes a pass (let alone makes a good throw allowing YAC) the way I was the last 1/2 of this season with Ponder....he was that bad. So to answer your question, I think people aren't focusing on the good because most people feel that his good games were just average games at best and only appeared to be good because he lowered our expectations so much.If you've ever been on KFAN's Rube Chat though you probably get the feeling that Vikings fans are some of the most negative people on the face of the earth. Good lord is that place unbearable...it's like the government rounded up the inbred hicks that migrated north and put them all in a trailer park together.'Biabreakable said:I think perhaps some of the negative nancy stuff around here may be wearing me down.The way I see it is that Ponder was a project when the Vikings drafted him. Many said the pick was a reach and time may end up proving that to be true or it might not. Despite that I have seen Ponder make progress and get better over the season. Particularly when it mattered most. Ponder made some nice throws in those last 3 games and he made some good throws early on in the season as well. As good as these performances were for him the games that snogger points out were very bad. So why is it the focus on when Ponder struggled? When Ponder and the whole team played poorly (except for Peterson, blocks for Peterson)while ignoring when Ponder played well? To me this is mostly just a difference in attitude/perspective on the situation.
Smith has proven his limitations far more than Ponder has at this point of both of their careers. I am hopeful that Ponder can be something better than Smith in time. I do not see adding Alex Smith and a QB controversy as being a good thing for the Vikings. The reason the Vikings drafted Ponder is because they no longer wanted to be chasing FA QBs to patch the position over. So why would the Vikings regress from that and bring in a QB like Smith who honestly is not nearly as exciting or capable as other veteran QBs the Vikings have used in the past such as Favre and Moon.Now clearly (or at least I think it is clear) the Vikings need to address the back up QB position and I agree a veteran QB to help mentor Ponder would be perhaps the best choice. Either that or the Vikings draft a QB of the future to push Ponder. The Vikings need a back up QB who can win games when needed. Webb does not seem to be the answer to that need any more.If Ponder does fail in 2013 (I think he improves on the progress made in 2012) then the Vikings will have given Ponder enough playing time to show the world what he is capable of and become a good back up QB the Vikings need. The question then would be who is going to become the starter?Strength of schedule analysis showed that the Vikings actually played one of the most difficult schedules in 2012 despite supposedly favorable slotting. The schedule next season while certainly not easy, does not appear to be more difficult than what the Vikings faced in 2012. I fully expect the Vikings to continue to be a run 1st team and Peterson just may be looking to knock off Dickersons record in 2013. So I would say be prepared for more low yardage passing from Ponder. The key is going to be adding a deep threat element and Ponder taking advantage of that as well as further developing his mechanics and short passing accuracy. I think Ponder accomplishes that but many of you will still likely be disappointed in Ponder not being Wilson,Manning,Rodgers.
I do not see Smith as an upgrade to Ponder and Smith does not really have any upside at this point while Ponder still does. Stunting Ponders growth with a player such as Smith starting ahead of him is the wrong way to develop a young QB and giving up on Ponder too soon.
http://blog.vikings.com/2013/01/16/kiper-projects-wr-terrance-williams-as-vikings-1st-round-pick/Not really a fan of the hair but I do like what he has to say about Williams. I think Williams, Allen and Patterson are all interesting options and nice value at pick 23 in a position of need. At the same time from what I have been reading the strength of this draft is on the defensive line. This seems like a draft crop of DTs deep enough that the Vikings could get a good DT even as late as pick 23. This may not be as much of immediate need (assuming the Vikings restructure KWs contract and he starts in 2013) as WR and a impact player at WR likely means more wins than better DT play in the rotation will, however long term the Vikings need to replace the Kevin Williams in his prime level of play that KW himself is not likely to ever get back to. I think it is great that Griffen can play the under tackle as well as he did. That helps on passing downs a ton, a rookie pass rushing DT from this draft would set the Vikings up to have a very good group for years to come even if(when) Allen gets traded/retired/declined.It recently dawned on me that Allen Griffen and Robinson are all in 1 year contracts. The Vikings must keep Griffen I think. Allen has the biggest contract on the team something like 17 million for 2013? Allen is likely worth every penny however Griffen and Robinson are more important to the Vikings long term plans at the DE position. I think it is ideal to keep all 3 as long as you can. That is a lot of cap space that could be allocated somewhere else however and money better spent signing Griffen+Robinson to longer term deals than it is paying Allen.
I think we have a pretty good idea of what Alex Smith is capable of and it is unlikely Smith grows a great deal in his performance after so many seasons now to develop.Ponder on the other hand has shown growth both long term; working out a ton in the offseason to be ready for 2012 and short term; coming back from a terrible streak of games to being a big factor in the teams final 3 wins to make the playoffs. Based on the progress Ponder has made I think he has potential to take another big step forward in his level of performance next season. Having additional weapons to work with and more experience from young players such as Kalil and Rudolph entering their 2nd and 3rd seasons respectively. I do think Ponder will improve on 2012, how much remains to be seen. Ponder will still be limited somewhat by the Vikings being a run 1st team. A legit deep threat could change that pretty quickly. The Vikings did not have many explosive plays from the passing game at all. That is at least in part because of the receivers. Alex Smith needed a great offensive line and quality receivers before he performed good enough to win with. Ponder when he limits the turnovers is already good enough to win but we have not seen him play with the same quality of receivers as we have seen Smith with. And this was a Smith who had 6 some more seasons of game experience to draw on than Ponder has just this season completing a full year without the choas that was the 2011 season in the aftermath of Childress/Favre.
You and others may very well be right and Ponder will not take the next step needed to be a winning QB for the Vikings in 2013 or beyond. I can see Ponder never being more than a quality back up QB and possible future journeyman of the position. Much like Alex Smith now.The things I like about Ponder is his pocket awareness. He does seem to have that 6th sense about him to feel backside pressure that he cannot see. Ponder threw the ball away a lot in avoiding the sack this season. Part of that is because of his awareness of the pass rush. Ponder made some very risky throws in that situation that could have led to more turnovers as well, I am hoping he can improve on that.I also saw some decent zing on some of his throws later on in the season. On the slants and also on the double move to Wright. I do think part of this is just the decisiveness to let those throws rip when it is there that he may not have had the confidence to throw as quicky or sharply earlier on in the season.Ponder still has a lot of room for improvement on his mechanics. He threw off of his back foot without setting on many of the poor throws. That is something that he can work on and should be able to improve with practice over time.Ponder improved his completion percentage from 54% in 2011 to 62% in 2012. I think that is a good sign and Ponder could improve on this accuracy with better mechanics and experience.I thought Ponder got what he could out of Simpson and Jenkins which wasn't that great.Ponder could likely do more with a healthy Harvin for the full season, and a more experienced Wright/Rudolph building on last season. There may be some rookie or FA addition to this corps as well. It is hard for me to see the receiving options being worse in 2013 than they were in 2012.If Ponder fails to take the next step in his development I think the Vikings will have given him enough opportunity to make a decision. Options at QB in 2014 may be better than they are in 2013. I do like Bray and Dysert enough that using a 2nd or 3rd round pick on one of them maybe could be a good option. Start getting that player ready in case Ponder fails or as a good back up even if he succeeds as long as we do not have to use a 1st round pick on the player that would not be a bad investment. Unless you think Musgrave cannot develop QBs then it wouldnt much matter who the Vikings got. We all pretty much would have agreed that Bevel did not succeed in developing Jackson but now he has done a great job with Wilson. It might be more about the player than it is the coach.
Watch the Houston game again and the Packers game. He makes several throws like this in those games that I had not seen up to that point and I was looking for it. Ponder seemed to play better after he got married.
Well the Great Blue North ranks the rookie WRs as of the 19th January this way:
http://www.gbnreport.com/2007wrs.htmlI think if Allen is indeed the top WR option in the draft that he will not last to pick 23.The players on this list that I have watched highlights on so far that I liked were Robert Woods, Aaron Dobson and Quinton Patton. I plan to look at the Tennessee players more in depth in coming days ahead.I think it is possible that one of these 3 WR I listed above may fall to the 2nd round and be an option for the Vikings without needing to move up to the end of the 1st round (or early 2nd round) to draft them. But the combine and other upcoming events may tell another story. There does seem to be some significant depth at the WR position just no clear and away prospect to justify a top 5 pick. Allen does seem to be the WR regarded the top WR by the most people ranking them at this point.The DT and DE from this draft class are also very deep but more top heavy in regards to how scouts are evaluating their talent level. So it may be the Vikings can draft one of the DTs perhaps as late as their 2nd round pick and still get a very good player. However based on what I have seen from mock drafts thus far more picks are being used on DTs in the 1st round than they are being used on WR. So that indicates that the Vikings may be maximizing the value of their picks by drafting a top DT at pick 23 before the talent level of the position drops from being picked over, or the Vikings having an interest in drafting a DT at the end of the run before that talent level at DT dries up.I liked a lot of what I saw from Ogletree. I am doubtful he will last past pick 15 however. I do think I agree with Andy that he may be BPA if he does fall to pick 23 however. There was a lot to like about his game and I expect he will be the top MLB taken in April.So I see more value in targeting WR with the Vikings 2nd round pick than I do their 1st. It would be easier and less expensive for the Vikings to try to trade up in the 2nd round (to somewhere in the teens) than it would be to trade up to the end of the 1st round for certain.
I don't know if I'd call him elusive like Kaep or RGIII. I'd have to check and see if he ever ran that type of offense before. I do believe that they have been coaching him not to run out of the pocket except for the designed rollouts. I would like to see him improvise more.
He hasn't, but it doesn't mean he can't. He's a smart kid. All you have to do is read the defensive end.Just from having him on my fantasy teams the past couple of years, I was impressed with his athleticism and his ability to gain yards on the ground. He's certainly not in Griffin's or Kaepernick's league speed-wise, but I can't imagine Wilson would blow him away in a 40-yard dash, and he runs a similar scheme in Seattle.
As Allen has been almost always talked about as the 1st WR off the board I have kind of been working from the assumption that he will be gone before pick 23. I would prefer the Vikings to use their 1st round pick on defense as I think there are quality WR prospects that will be available at the Vikings 2nd round pick, while I do not see the same level of defensive prospects still being available in the 2nd round.As I mentioned before I like Quinton Patton because of his overall game and also because he is one of the few WR I have heard being touted for his blocking skills. With many of the other things being equal I would prefer the WR who is the best blocker. Patton may not make it to the Vikings at pick 52 but I see Woods rising in his ranking while Patton got some boost from the senior bowl I have only read a couple things suggesting he would rise to the 1st round.Here is todays CBS WR ranking-
This looks like the 3 I mentioned earlier in the thread have all risen some while Justin Hunter (who many were projectig to the Vikings at 23 early on) has fallen back to their 10 spot. I am pretty comfortable with any of the 5 2nd round prospects here and it does seem likely that at least one of these players is still available to the Vikings at pick 52.
Not to derail the thread but I hate this argument and its been popping up more and more these days. In a league that changes as fast as the NFL and playoff games that are going to OT and ending on FG's there is no such thing as a team or player that is good enough to get to one round of the playoffs but not the next. Players do not have "playoff ceilings".
Another month goes by and the combine have changed my mind yet again. Te'o and Allen were prospects that people thought wouldn't fall to 23 in the draft. Personally I wouldnbe 't all that disappointed if the Vikings let both of them keep falling. I was disappointed that Keenan Allen measured in at 6'2" and 206. That is not exactly big by NFL standards. In fact, Hopkins was only 1" shorter and outweighed him. Allen still hasn't recovered fully from his injury and he won't hold his pro day until April 9th. I am not convinced that when Allen finally runs that he will run all that much faster than Hopkins. At this point, Olgetree wouldn't be a bad pick if the team feels that he can be trusted in the future.I also think Eric Reid would be a good pick for the Vikings. Viking don't classify their safeties in the traditional strong and free postions. They are expected to both roles on any given play. Vaccaro and Elam may be rated higher but the 6'1" Reid looks like a better fit for the Vikings.
My best argument is that the Vikings can save $7 M or so per year by not signing Alex Smith. Using the money to re-sign Harvin gets the Vikings much further now and in the future. IMO, Smith is not a huge upgrade people are making him out to be.
