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*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (2 Viewers)

Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
 
Last edited:
The plans w
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't read too much into Macron's recent comments coming fresh from a meeting with Poohbear.

The gradual shift from the Dollar was inevitable and is a real issue but was already happening prior to Russian sanctions.

The problem with many of these new alliances is they are largely very young relationships and are among countries with historically volatile allegiances. The odds of them holding up like NATO are very low.
 
Orange&Blue said:
The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.
Click to expand...
This story is so overwrought IMO. For all our many flaws, the US dollar is still, by a mile, the most trusted, most used currency in the world. In the long run no one is going to trust closed, tyrannical societies to steward a major reserve currency.
 
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...
Numerous?
I saw China, Brazil and Russia in limited agreements. Did I miss others?

Calling France a staunch US ally is a stretch. Pretty much as soon as we handed them their country they have been a strong yet wayward ally. Staunch would be GB, Canada, Australia, etc. France would be on the outer limits of the "close allies" that we have.

However, China, is, without a doubt, the real and rising threat. Too many Americans simply do not understand the threat and how they are incrementally moving the ball forward in pretty much every aspect from military, diplomacy, economics, etc with the one goal being to displace the US as the main power in the world and that should worry everyone. As much as some Americans like to think we are such a horrible country, they will have a rude awakening having a country like China as being the clearly superior world power.
 
Chadstroma said:
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...
Numerous?
I saw China, Brazil and Russia in limited agreements. Did I miss others?

Calling France a staunch US ally is a stretch. Pretty much as soon as we handed them their country they have been a strong yet wayward ally. Staunch would be GB, Canada, Australia, etc. France would be on the outer limits of the "close allies" that we have.

However, China, is, without a doubt, the real and rising threat. Too many Americans simply do not understand the threat and how they are incrementally moving the ball forward in pretty much every aspect from military, diplomacy, economics, etc with the one goal being to displace the US as the main power in the world and that should worry everyone. As much as some Americans like to think we are such a horrible country, they will have a rude awakening having a country like China as being the clearly superior world power.
Click to expand...
UAE and India.

Hence my quotes around staunch. Macron questions why Australia didn't pick them for subs, and then he says crap like that about China/Taiwan.

Due to my job, which I won't discuss, I get more information than most about the threat of China. They displaced Russia long ago, but the average American was oblivious. They have one goal and everything centers around that goal. And they are patient.

You are exactly correct. I would extend that to most non-Americans as well.
 
Last edited:
[icon] said:
The plans w
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't read too much into Macron's recent comments coming fresh from a meeting with Poohbear.

The gradual shift from the Dollar was inevitable and is a real issue but was already happening prior to Russian sanctions.

The problem with many of these new alliances is they are largely very young relationships and are among countries with historically volatile allegiances. The odds of them holding up like NATO are very low.
Click to expand...
The shift from the dollar has been accelerated with the Ukraine war. I don't think that is debatable.

I'm not worried about a military alliance, yet, but China is making moves for that. Our dominance was built on our economic powerhouse after WW1 and WW2. We've maintained it, but that is gradually being chipped away with China making these seemingly insignificant moves, but when combined add up.
 
The Ruble continues to lose value. 8% since March 2023 and dropping. When compared to the beginning of the year then the drop was even more than 12%, making it the 2nd worst performing currency in the market this year (only the Argentine Peso is performing worse). In combination with the high discounts on oil and gas, this is just the icing. Of course, Russia can attempt to increase the (Ruble) price, but I doubt that companies in China and India will accept that since that arrangement is currently working in their favor. Putin, the "master strategist", in action,... again. #Russia #Ruble
Click to expand...
 
The decapitation video is the single most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life. I've watched some horrific **** but nothing I have ever seen can compare.

If you want to see it, it's out there, just know it's bad. If you're on the fence, at all, don't.

Jesus ****ing Christ. How does that even happen.
 
[icon] said:
The decapitation video is the single most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life. I've watched some horrific **** but nothing I have ever seen can compare.

If you want to see it, it's out there, just know it's bad. If you're on the fence, at all, don't.

Jesus ****ing Christ. How does that even happen.
Click to expand...
It's all over Reddit. There is no way I am watching it.
 
Orange&Blue said:
Chadstroma said:
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...
Numerous?
I saw China, Brazil and Russia in limited agreements. Did I miss others?

Calling France a staunch US ally is a stretch. Pretty much as soon as we handed them their country they have been a strong yet wayward ally. Staunch would be GB, Canada, Australia, etc. France would be on the outer limits of the "close allies" that we have.

However, China, is, without a doubt, the real and rising threat. Too many Americans simply do not understand the threat and how they are incrementally moving the ball forward in pretty much every aspect from military, diplomacy, economics, etc with the one goal being to displace the US as the main power in the world and that should worry everyone. As much as some Americans like to think we are such a horrible country, they will have a rude awakening having a country like China as being the clearly superior world power.
Click to expand...
UAE and India.

Hence my quotes around staunch. Macron questions why Australia didn't pick them for subs, and then he says crap like that about China/Taiwan.

Due to my job, which I won't discuss, I get more information than most about the threat of China. They displaced Russia long ago, but the average American was oblivious. They have one goal and everything centers around that goal. And they are patient.

You are exactly correct. I would extend that to most non-Americans as well.
Click to expand...
The leaks show UAE making deals with Russia to basically screw us and the UK.

India is an odd bird. Long ties to Russia but was never truly aligned. Has ongoing territorial disputes with China that is more than 'that's ours!' and have fought wars and even a big brawl recently with deaths involved. They have been moving more towards us as Pakistan is clearly and fully within Chinese sphere of influence but they also try to keep an independent posture, striving for a bi-polar Asian balance of them and China.... but they just can't compete alone and need us. The Quad is a good jump in the right direction but it is gong to be need to be more.
 
themeistersinger said:
The Ruble continues to lose value. 8% since March 2023 and dropping. When compared to the beginning of the year then the drop was even more than 12%, making it the 2nd worst performing currency in the market this year (only the Argentine Peso is performing worse). In combination with the high discounts on oil and gas, this is just the icing. Of course, Russia can attempt to increase the (Ruble) price, but I doubt that companies in China and India will accept that since that arrangement is currently working in their favor. Putin, the "master strategist", in action,... again. #Russia #Ruble
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Putin wanted to remake the Russian Empire.... he has turned it into China's biotch.
 
higgins said:
Chadstroma said:
Russia has one carrier. They can't even crew it.
Click to expand...
Sounds just like China
Click to expand...
Russia has the manpower- what they both do not have is experienced sailors/officers in carrier operations. Even though the Russians have played with carriers a little bit for years, they also have had no clue how to use them. I am suspicious that the Chinese are still deficient in their overall use of Naval power. However, the big difference between Russia and China is that China has the funding to train and do their best to learn operations and strategy in peacetime while Russia has been deficient since the Soviet era and is now in a death spiral with the sinking black hole that is the Ukraine.
 
Brad Paisley meeting with Zelensky. Lol. Probably working on a top secret strategy to take down the big bad Russians! Such unserious scam artists.
 
Chadstroma said:
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...
Numerous?
I saw China, Brazil and Russia in limited agreements. Did I miss others?

Calling France a staunch US ally is a stretch. Pretty much as soon as we handed them their country they have been a strong yet wayward ally. Staunch would be GB, Canada, Australia, etc. France would be on the outer limits of the "close allies" that we have.

However, China, is, without a doubt, the real and rising threat. Too many Americans simply do not understand the threat and how they are incrementally moving the ball forward in pretty much every aspect from military, diplomacy, economics, etc with the one goal being to displace the US as the main power in the world and that should worry everyone. As much as some Americans like to think we are such a horrible country, they will have a rude awakening having a country like China as being the clearly superior world power.
Click to expand...
I think this even understates the threat from China. They control more than most people understand, especially those who get all of their information through the MSM. There's a reason many in our government and in media barely touch on China while always acting as if Russia is the big bad guy about to take over the world. Russia has little leverage over leaders or media, therefore, they aren't shielded from criticism. China has an incredible amount of leverage over all of them, which is why you barely hear a peep about the biggest threat in the world. China being the superpower in the world is the last thing most should want.
 
flapgreen said:
Chadstroma said:
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...
Numerous?
I saw China, Brazil and Russia in limited agreements. Did I miss others?

Calling France a staunch US ally is a stretch. Pretty much as soon as we handed them their country they have been a strong yet wayward ally. Staunch would be GB, Canada, Australia, etc. France would be on the outer limits of the "close allies" that we have.

However, China, is, without a doubt, the real and rising threat. Too many Americans simply do not understand the threat and how they are incrementally moving the ball forward in pretty much every aspect from military, diplomacy, economics, etc with the one goal being to displace the US as the main power in the world and that should worry everyone. As much as some Americans like to think we are such a horrible country, they will have a rude awakening having a country like China as being the clearly superior world power.
Click to expand...
I think this even understates the threat from China. They control more than most people understand, especially those who get all of their information through the MSM. There's a reason many in our government and in media barely touch on China while always acting as if Russia is the big bad guy about to take over the world. Russia has little leverage over leaders or media, therefore, they aren't shielded from criticism. China has an incredible amount of leverage over all of them, which is why you barely hear a peep about the biggest threat in the world. China being the superpower in the world is the last thing most should want.
Click to expand...
You can see that in various companies, industries, whatever you would call the NBA.... they supposedly are so brave and have no problem ruffling feathers based on what they say is about being 'right' or 'moral' or whatever else.... but then all of a sudden they gladly will change for China. The Entertainment industry (include sports) is ridiculous on this. And don't even think of saying anything not nice about China.... woooooo weeeeeeee.

The influence of China is significant today and growing daily.

At this pace the only thing that may end up saving us if China implodes. There have been some cracks in the proverbial Wall of China that we have seen over the last couple of years. It is not out of the question that a now growing affluent population would revolt against the tyranny if the economic situation was to reverse and get bad. A good analysis of China I read a while ago was showing that the Chinese populace could rise up against the government if the economy were to take a sharp downturn and the communist fear this above all else hence their willingness to prop it up at pretty much any cost. There are some indications that some of the economic might is.... well.... a paper tiger.
 
Chadstroma said:
flapgreen said:
Chadstroma said:
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...
Numerous?
I saw China, Brazil and Russia in limited agreements. Did I miss others?

Calling France a staunch US ally is a stretch. Pretty much as soon as we handed them their country they have been a strong yet wayward ally. Staunch would be GB, Canada, Australia, etc. France would be on the outer limits of the "close allies" that we have.

However, China, is, without a doubt, the real and rising threat. Too many Americans simply do not understand the threat and how they are incrementally moving the ball forward in pretty much every aspect from military, diplomacy, economics, etc with the one goal being to displace the US as the main power in the world and that should worry everyone. As much as some Americans like to think we are such a horrible country, they will have a rude awakening having a country like China as being the clearly superior world power.
Click to expand...
I think this even understates the threat from China. They control more than most people understand, especially those who get all of their information through the MSM. There's a reason many in our government and in media barely touch on China while always acting as if Russia is the big bad guy about to take over the world. Russia has little leverage over leaders or media, therefore, they aren't shielded from criticism. China has an incredible amount of leverage over all of them, which is why you barely hear a peep about the biggest threat in the world. China being the superpower in the world is the last thing most should want.
Click to expand...
You can see that in various companies, industries, whatever you would call the NBA.... they supposedly are so brave and have no problem ruffling feathers based on what they say is about being 'right' or 'moral' or whatever else.... but then all of a sudden they gladly will change for China. The Entertainment industry (include sports) is ridiculous on this. And don't even think of saying anything not nice about China.... woooooo weeeeeeee.

The influence of China is significant today and growing daily.

At this pace the only thing that may end up saving us if China implodes. There have been some cracks in the proverbial Wall of China that we have seen over the last couple of years. It is not out of the question that a now growing affluent population would revolt against the tyranny if the economic situation was to reverse and get bad. A good analysis of China I read a while ago was showing that the Chinese populace could rise up against the government if the economy were to take a sharp downturn and the communist fear this above all else hence their willingness to prop it up at pretty much any cost. There are some indications that some of the economic might is.... well.... a paper tiger.
Click to expand...

i honestly think that a lot of the reports we hear, and not just China but other countries as well, about potential or existing uprising is overinflated to pander to western bias/hopes.
 
Orange&Blue said:
Chadstroma said:
flapgreen said:
Chadstroma said:
Orange&Blue said:
Yes, russia has been degraded, but i think people are fooling themselves if they think US is coming away with no harm. I think the ultimate winner in all of this China and in a big way.

The US use of the dollar as a weapon has scared a lot of countries. Numerous countries are moving away from the dollar and SWIFT and use other currencies for trade. That is an unknown, but likely substantial, victory for China.

Not to mention they've had several diplomatic victories (saudi/iran) and even our "staunch" allies (France) are cooling on our anti-china stance.
Click to expand...
Numerous?
I saw China, Brazil and Russia in limited agreements. Did I miss others?

Calling France a staunch US ally is a stretch. Pretty much as soon as we handed them their country they have been a strong yet wayward ally. Staunch would be GB, Canada, Australia, etc. France would be on the outer limits of the "close allies" that we have.

However, China, is, without a doubt, the real and rising threat. Too many Americans simply do not understand the threat and how they are incrementally moving the ball forward in pretty much every aspect from military, diplomacy, economics, etc with the one goal being to displace the US as the main power in the world and that should worry everyone. As much as some Americans like to think we are such a horrible country, they will have a rude awakening having a country like China as being the clearly superior world power.
Click to expand...
I think this even understates the threat from China. They control more than most people understand, especially those who get all of their information through the MSM. There's a reason many in our government and in media barely touch on China while always acting as if Russia is the big bad guy about to take over the world. Russia has little leverage over leaders or media, therefore, they aren't shielded from criticism. China has an incredible amount of leverage over all of them, which is why you barely hear a peep about the biggest threat in the world. China being the superpower in the world is the last thing most should want.
Click to expand...
You can see that in various companies, industries, whatever you would call the NBA.... they supposedly are so brave and have no problem ruffling feathers based on what they say is about being 'right' or 'moral' or whatever else.... but then all of a sudden they gladly will change for China. The Entertainment industry (include sports) is ridiculous on this. And don't even think of saying anything not nice about China.... woooooo weeeeeeee.

The influence of China is significant today and growing daily.

At this pace the only thing that may end up saving us if China implodes. There have been some cracks in the proverbial Wall of China that we have seen over the last couple of years. It is not out of the question that a now growing affluent population would revolt against the tyranny if the economic situation was to reverse and get bad. A good analysis of China I read a while ago was showing that the Chinese populace could rise up against the government if the economy were to take a sharp downturn and the communist fear this above all else hence their willingness to prop it up at pretty much any cost. There are some indications that some of the economic might is.... well.... a paper tiger.
Click to expand...

i honestly think that a lot of the reports we hear, and not just China but other countries as well, about potential or existing uprising is overinflated to pander to western bias/hopes.
Click to expand...
I don't know... I think China has been docile because of the economic boom. When people have a full belly and some creature comforts they are not very likely to cause problems when that means they get thrown in jail or worse. Even so, there have been occasions that you have seen some light protesting in recent times, most recently due to the COVID restrictions. There is a balance in it all.... the tyranny of an autocratic oppressive regime and having a good life.... once that balance goes, it could get ugly fast. I am not saying it will happen but there is enough there to say that it could happen.

As for the economic might being.... less than it seems.... I am convinced of it. Not that they are not an economic power or that the economy isn't exploding but when you look past the glitz and glamour of it all there is a hollowness to it with a lot of shady government 'cooking of the books' and playing that game.... what is it... with the cups and the pea and you have to guess which cup the pea is in but there is slight of hand to fool you? Whatever that is... that.
 
Chadstroma said:
There are some indications that some of the economic might is.... well.... a paper tiger.
Click to expand...
I'm there right now, writing this from the back seat of a car. I disagree with this assessment. Their middle class seems to grow by the day and their working conditions are steadily improving. They had some setbacks from covid but are starting to roll on again.

What will cause it to implode one day is the low birth rate and aging population.
 
The Z Machine said:
Chadstroma said:
There are some indications that some of the economic might is.... well.... a paper tiger.
Click to expand...
I'm there right now, writing this from the back seat of a car. I disagree with this assessment. Their middle class seems to grow by the day and their working conditions are steadily improving. They had some setbacks from covid but are starting to roll on again.

What will cause it to implode one day is the low birth rate and aging population.
Click to expand...
I either did a poor job of explaining what my point was or you missed it.

What you reference is what I am saying is exactly the reason that keeps the populace content with an otherwise more oppressive regime.

The economic paper tiger I am referencing is not something you would see being there. It is something you can't really see at all. But it is the more than..... suspicious.... intanglement of government and business there. There is somewhat of a black hole when it comes to the accounting of their large government owned businesses and my understanding it that they move money from one to another fairly frequently to prop things up.
 
Wonderful.... Russia almost triggered WWIII but thankfully due to their crap equipment, it was avoided.

A UK surveillance aircraft was in international waters doing it's thing. A Russian SU-27 intercepted and apparently confused the radar operators communication as approval to fire. It launched a missile which didn't work.... narrowly avoided triggering NATO Article 5.

Thank God for the Russians building a bunch of absolute crap.
 
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