the moops
Footballguy
I'd suggest you back off and chill out man. Geez. An innocuous "I don't think it's obvious" is a pretty benign statement. In fact, it could be viewed to be as political as your follow up
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*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Jayrod
- Start date
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Thread cop isn't a good look on you. I'd lose the need to control everything.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
It was a simple, objective question. Sad that you couldn't even attempt an objective answer
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
So was this one.
the moops
Footballguy
I will drop this now. Carry on all
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
I don't know if wanting Russia to 'win' is accurate, but people like John Mearsheimer and Noam Chomsky think Ukraine, with prodding from western intelligence agencies, got this started 15 years ago. To what end, your guess is as good as mine, but I think it is all about saving face at this point.
beer 30
Footballguy
Has anybody defined what "winning" looks like? This war reminds me a lot of Afghanistan.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
He who smelt it dealt it.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Plainly... Russia gains territory pre-2022 borders is a win for Russia. Reset to 2022 borders, anything less is a bad peace.
Orange&Blue
Footballguy
first, what facts are you basing this on? go look at any war map and you will see russia has been winning.
second, see your own bolded words above, gb.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I'm not reading all the posts nor follow up to my post, but all the president is doing is trying to get us something out of helping Ukraine. Does it come across bad? probably. There are plenty of people that think we should spend indefinitely to protect freedom. But we have spent trillions fighting for others. And we have hardly anything to show for it. He wants mineral rights and other things that China gets in their dealings overseas, particularly in Africa. Ukraine would not give him what he wanted. And he showed Ukraine what he will do unless they cave. Our pres, like it or not, authored the Art of the Deal. And that's all you need to know. Everything is a deal. You don't have to like it. But is it any worse than spending trillions over the past 20 years to pretty much get nothing in return from Afghanistam, Iraq, Ukraine, etc, etc, etc, What would it hurt the US if Ukraine became Russian? A couple of extra seaports that they will get eventually anyway. Putin will die at some point too. So they will go back in their hole. What would it hurt the US if Taiwan becomes China? Semiconductors that need to move elsewhere. Other than that ... meh. World peace is expensive to protect, and some of these other countries need to step it up when it effects them far more than us. That's my take. Out.
beer 30
Footballguy
I personally don't think that's going to happen, Russia isn't giving anything back. Think the conversation starts at were the border is today with a little give & take.
the moops
Footballguy
You should do both of these things. Otherwise what's the point?
SofaKings
Footballguy
And if this occurs, there should be a tripwire in response to any further aggression from Russia or Belarus.
beer 30
Footballguy
And I'd say, if I was them at least, some kind of check put into place regarding NATO expansion. At some point we need co-exist without the threat of nuclear war every time someone sneezes in the area. Pie in the sky, I know.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Will there also be tripwires to ensure that US intelligence agencies don't meddle in the politics of non-NATO members?
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Security guarantee is by far the largest negotiation issue IMO. Next would be so-called "free elections."
Land is relatively minor since it doesn't have any major strategic significance. Plus Ukraine has very little leverage to force its return.
Land is relatively minor since it doesn't have any major strategic significance. Plus Ukraine has very little leverage to force its return.
TLEF316
Footballguy
This. It's how he sees everything. I've seen it first hand in my work. Obviously not gonna give details....(and nothing Id say would come as a shock to anyone. His rep in this area proceeds him) but the amount of time that organization/family is willing to waste (or make other people waste) "renegotiating" something they already agreed to (and we're not talking about a life changing amount of money here) is astonishing.
Edit: and honestly...I don't think it's "wrong" to expect something for continuing to help with no clear end in sight.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
It is fairly common knowledge that Tony Schwartz wrote it
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Not to me it doesn't.
Dezbelief
Footballguy
With Explosive Goggles, Ukraine Sought to Blast Russian Drone Operators
A senior Ukrainian intelligence official confirmed the plot to blow up drone goggles. But it was unclear how much effect the scheme had on Russian forces.
Dezbelief
Footballguy
A drone pierced the outer shell of Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear plant. Radiation levels are normal
A drone armed with a warhead hit the protective outer shell of Ukraine’s Chernobyl nuclear plant. Friday's strike punched a hole in the shell and briefly started a fire. The United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency says radiation levels at the shuttered plant have not increased.
apnews.com
Orange&Blue
Footballguy
i have some ocean front property to sell you in nebraska if you think Russia or China will stop with either one.
If we forgo Ukraine/Taiwan, do you think any country will ever trust or want to be allied with us again? As an example, when China looks at Vietnam, again, they will also fold and all of our economic development and ties with them will be wasted.
That type of aggression will continue and we will lose our wold dominance not just militarily but economically as well. That will be a very dark day for America and our children.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Denmark announces plans to bolster its defense spending and raise it above 3% of GDP
The Danish government has announced plans to bolster its military by setting up a 50 billion-kroner ($7 billion) fund that it says will raise the country’s defense spending to more than 3% of gross domestic product this year and next.
apnews.com
I don't think Putin will agree to have free elections in Russia. But I guess it doesn't hurt to ask in the negotiations.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Putin wants elections to be free and fair, just like they are in Russia.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Evidently there are significant rare earth deposits in the Russian occupied Donetsk region. So that will obviously complicate the land aspect of the negotiations seeing how it is now of importance to the U.S.
Chaos34
Footballguy
Forum rules prohibit my take on this. If anyone wants Elon's AI's take, that's Grok 3, the smartest AI in the world according to Elon, I'll gladly forward a long analysis.
beer 30
Footballguy
There was a time when I went down a rabbit hole regarding Chernobyl and was fascinated with the whole accident, cause, follow up and eventual building of the sarcophagus and now this new structure. To fly drones into it, accidentally or on purpose is extremely troubling. That site still has the ability to end a lot of people for the next few hundred years and if the idiots (whoever they are) ever drop a bomb on the spot, a good portion of Europe will have a lot more to worry about than the war.
A drone pierced the outer shell of Ukraine's Chernobyl nuclear plant. Radiation levels are normal
A drone armed with a warhead hit the protective outer shell of Ukraine’s Chernobyl nuclear plant. Friday's strike punched a hole in the shell and briefly started a fire. The United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency says radiation levels at the shuttered plant have not increased.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Ukraine-Russia war latest: Trump envoy praises ‘courageous war leader’ Zelensky
Donald Trump’s special envoy for Russia-Ukraine praised Volodymyr Zelensky as a “courageous” war leader on Friday, offering an apparent olive branch to Kyiv after days of rising tensions.
www.telegraph.co.uk
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Germany takes the fight to Russia in undersea cable war
The once poorly equipped German military is rising to a new challenge: Protecting the Baltic from Vladimir Putin’s ‘hybrid warfare’
www.telegraph.co.uk
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Feels like this should have been discussed in 1945?
Mister CIA
Footballguy
I iMAGIne NOT.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
ABC News - Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's team is working on an updated agreement between Ukraine and the United States for Ukraine to agree to give the U.S. revenue from some of Ukraine's most valuable resources, a Ukrainian official told ABC News.
A U.S. official with knowledge of the negotiations said a new version of the deal between the two countries has been put on the table.
The document currently on the table is a work in progress after the Trump administration initially proposed Ukraine provide the U.S. government with 50% of the revenue from some of its key resources, including minerals, oil, gas and ports a week ago, according to a draft document reviewed by ABC News and a Ukrainian official familiar with the matter.
"I told them to show the security guarantees, and then we talk about the percentage. They said 50% and I replied NO. I can't sell the country off. I'm just a manager. Tomorrow, the country will have another manager, so I can't sell it. Besides, around 20% of resources are in Russia-occupied territory," Zelenskyy said during a press conference Wednesday.
"There can be, in my view, nothing better, for Ukraine's future and for their security than to have the United States invested in their prosperity long term," [NSA Chief] Waltz said.
It was unclear what changes the Ukrainian side had proposed during their discussions with Kellogg on Thursday.
A U.S. official with knowledge of the negotiations said a new version of the deal between the two countries has been put on the table.
The document currently on the table is a work in progress after the Trump administration initially proposed Ukraine provide the U.S. government with 50% of the revenue from some of its key resources, including minerals, oil, gas and ports a week ago, according to a draft document reviewed by ABC News and a Ukrainian official familiar with the matter.
"I told them to show the security guarantees, and then we talk about the percentage. They said 50% and I replied NO. I can't sell the country off. I'm just a manager. Tomorrow, the country will have another manager, so I can't sell it. Besides, around 20% of resources are in Russia-occupied territory," Zelenskyy said during a press conference Wednesday.
"There can be, in my view, nothing better, for Ukraine's future and for their security than to have the United States invested in their prosperity long term," [NSA Chief] Waltz said.
It was unclear what changes the Ukrainian side had proposed during their discussions with Kellogg on Thursday.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
The long con coming to fruition
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Closing in on a mineral rights deal...
The U.S. and Ukraine are nearing a deal that would hand valuable mineral rights to the U.S...as compensation for military aid to fight off Russia’s invasion, people familiar with the matter said.
In an apparent nod to an impending deal, Zelensky said in a nightly video address Friday that teams of U.S. and Ukrainian negotiators were working on a draft agreement.
“This is an agreement that can strengthen our relations, and the key is to work out the details to ensure its effectiveness,” he said. “I look forward to the outcome—a just result.”
An agreement could be signed as soon as Saturday, although it isn’t yet complete, people briefed on the talks said. The exact terms couldn’t be learned.
A person close to the government in Kyiv said Kellogg played “a big part” in finalizing terms of the deal by building trust with Zelensky and other Ukrainian officials over a three-day visit to the country’s capital.
Source: WSJ
The U.S. and Ukraine are nearing a deal that would hand valuable mineral rights to the U.S...as compensation for military aid to fight off Russia’s invasion, people familiar with the matter said.
In an apparent nod to an impending deal, Zelensky said in a nightly video address Friday that teams of U.S. and Ukrainian negotiators were working on a draft agreement.
“This is an agreement that can strengthen our relations, and the key is to work out the details to ensure its effectiveness,” he said. “I look forward to the outcome—a just result.”
An agreement could be signed as soon as Saturday, although it isn’t yet complete, people briefed on the talks said. The exact terms couldn’t be learned.
A person close to the government in Kyiv said Kellogg played “a big part” in finalizing terms of the deal by building trust with Zelensky and other Ukrainian officials over a three-day visit to the country’s capital.
Source: WSJ
fatness
Footballguy
I haven't kept up with the rare earth thing. So now the US doesn't want the minerals at all, it just wants the money from their sale?
rockaction
Footballguy
The Marshall Plan passed in 1948 re-built a devastated Europe after World War II, a Europe that was devastated emotionally, financially, and in manpower. The Marshall Plan might have been the greatest investment the United States has ever made in foreign aid and understanding, seeing as how it helped engender and make possible the alliances that kept Europe from coming under completely communist rule and left them indebted to the U.S. for its largesse. We, not the Russians, opened up markets in Europe and Europeans sought to buy our goods and services rather than those of Soviet Russia. We not only scored a political victory in that sense, but also an economic one. It was in our interest to do so and dovetailed neatly with our understanding of the good life and human rights.
The United States safeguarded Europe from Russia when it needed it most. The Berlin Wall falling and its aftermath was probably the most irrationally exuberant we could have been about liberal democracy ascending to such heights that defense budgets were no longer as necessary with the United States providing cover for an admittedly increasingly profligate Europe that was willing to free ride on America's defense budget and capability. In addition, it was also nuclear warfare that discouraged local armies and defense spending as countries considered traditional warfare obsolete and nuclear warfare as anathema to humanity (it is), an odious proposition not to be invested in. Such is Europe.
But in '45 we needed to save Europe and rebuild it rather than let Russia have it. We face a similar situation today with the Ukraine. I'm not making any political point with this, but just to point out that if we don't invest in the world, darker forces are always ready to do so. Can we or they afford to do that any longer and is it efficacious to do so? This is what we're debating. Time will tell.
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
Europe riding on US security guarantees should move on from that paradigm. The US is not the ally to Europe that it once was. This will likely have an effect on the social services in European countries. Hopefully it will spur efficiencies and not simply erase the social safety net in favor of higher defense spending.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Russia needed an off-ramp somewhere. They were never giving anything back and would grind away until the last soldier on both sides.
They would never concede anything to Ukraine as they would view it as weakness. Question is Ukraine has been pretty much demolished and unlivable in many parts because of Russia. Who is going to rebuild it? If they even try?
Stoneworker
Footballguy
And certainly not the other way around, either
U.S. Pressing Tough Demands in Revised Deal for Ukraine’s Minerals
The Trump administration wants revenues from Ukraine’s natural resources, according to a draft obtained by The New York Times, with no security guarantee in exchange.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Joint investment fund from what I understand. Not too many details available
FarFromHome
Footballguy
National Security Advisor Michael Waltz sat down with Megyn Kelly yesterday and commented Ukraine has the ability to provide United States with 100% of our aluminum needs with a little investment.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
If it's a true mining JV then it also serves to reinforce any formal security guarantee.
A substantial U.S. financial stake and a few thousand American citizens spread throughout the Ukrainian countryside on a long-term basis will give Putin pause prior to contemplating another invasion.
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Yep. Feels like a good way to help provide a deterrent without us actually using troops.
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