Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I was thinking quite the opposite. I had Chelsea's draw pegged as the most difficult road, followed closely by Liverpool with United and Arsenal with the considerably easier paths.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
I still think we'll make it through but when Wolfsburg came out of pot 4 it made the group a lot more interesting. That's 3 long trips (2 at least) and 3 reasonably tough away matches. None of the 3 will be expected to do much at OT so I see maybe a 3-1-2 record for United and in to the knockout round.
Native
Footballguy
As a Chelsea supporter, the Atletico games worry me more than the Porto matches. Definitely not an easy group, but it could be worse I guess...Avoiding Inter and Real in Pot two makes up for being drawn with AM in pot 3.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
it will be Chelsea and either Atlético or Porto. Hopefully my boys can avenge the two draws that sent them packing last year: 2-2 in Madrid, 0-0 in Porto. Should be some good matches. Chelsea may throw a wrench int he works by their play in Madrid and Porto. APOEL has no chance. They may end up with only 2-3 points total.
Sebowski
Footballguy
Eto'o-Ibra!
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
It may have been discussed earlier in this thread, but I just learned that the excellent World Soccer Daily podcast and Sirius show have been cancelled due to the organized, ongoing anti-semitic actions by Liverpool fan club members against host Steven Cohen and to a lesser degree Kenny Hassan. Cohen (an unabashed Chelsea fan) was also recently replaced by Eric Wynalda at FSC due to the ongoing saga. Cohen shares responsibility due to his generally provacative nature and his ill-advised comments last year regarding the Hillsborough 96, although he gave what I thougt was a sincere apology and has been less combative on his show since that incident. Apparently they decided to abruptly end the show when death threats were made against Cohen, his wife and daughters and perhaps also against Kenny.
I considered this show to be the single best source for soccer news anywhere - regarding EPL, MLS, Scottland, US Soccer and FIFA (as well as other leagues). These guys had a great rapport with one another, consistently great, insightful analysis, excellent guests and an excellent network of callers/fans. I will truly miss this show (if indeed they are done for good).
http://www.worldsoccerdaily.com/
I considered this show to be the single best source for soccer news anywhere - regarding EPL, MLS, Scottland, US Soccer and FIFA (as well as other leagues). These guys had a great rapport with one another, consistently great, insightful analysis, excellent guests and an excellent network of callers/fans. I will truly miss this show (if indeed they are done for good).
http://www.worldsoccerdaily.com/
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Love the Inter draw for Barca, don't see Kiev having a chance to crack those two.
El Floppo
Footballguy
I'd go as far as saying this is absolutely a must-win for the US. At Honduras is going to be tough to gain points, and you never know what can happen at T&T. I'm going to try and quickly dig up the post where I charted out how I thought the remainder of qualifying would go... which, btw, had the US in 4th.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Here's that post I mentioned... I think I had the US tied for 3rd, but ahead of Honduras on goal differential.I got the T&T v ES and Honduras v CR games wrong.Some more thoughts about CONCACAF qualifying:
World Cup Qualifying - CONCACAF Fourth Round
............................GP W D L GS GC GD P
Costa Rica ............5 ..4. 0 1 9 ...5 ...4 .12
United States ........5 ..3 .1 1 10 ..6 ..4 ..10
El Salvador ...........4 ..1 .2 1 6 ...6 ...0 ..5
Honduras ..............4 ..1 .1 2 5 ...6 ..-1 ..4
Mexico ..................4 ..1 .0 3 4 ...7 ..-3 ..3
Trinidad & Tobago ..4 ..0 .2 2 5 ...9 ..-4 ..2
Remaining games with my best guess for points taken in each:
US:
Away to Mexico (0)
Home v El Salvador (3)
Away to T&T (3)
Away to Honduras (0)
Home to Costa Rica (1)
17 pts total.
Pivotal games- Need to win at T&T and get a point from Costa Rica at home (they'll have already qualified by this point, so maybe they'll send some young legs at us to give them experience). I'm going to assume they'll follow recent Central American away form and drop the game at Honduras. (edit- spaced on a Mexico game that I have them winning- that puts US and Honduras tied for 3rd)
Costa Rica:
Away to Honduras (1) (0)
Home to Mexico (1)
Away to El Salvador (3)
Home to T&T (3)
Away to US (1)
21 pts total (20 pts)
Pivotal Games: A point at Honduras and at home vs Mexico and the Ticos will basically have it wrapped up. T&T at home gives them a slam dunk win and only in need of 2 more points from their remaining games. I think 17 points is going to get you into the WC for the region.
Mexico:
Home to T&T (3)
Home to US (3)
Away to Costa Rica (1)
Home to Honduras (3)
Home to El Salvador (3)
Away to T&T (3)
19pts total
Pivotal Games: They're all pivotal for the El Tri at this point. They NEED to beat the US and Honduras at home. I'm being generous by giving them a point in CR, but I think they'll be up for it and I think CR will be over-confident. Away to T&T will be all or nothing. (edit- forgot about home to ES!... that puts them through, even with a loss to CR)
Honduras:
Home to El Salvador (3)
Home to Costa Rica (1) (3)
Home to T&T (3)
Away to Mexico (0)
Home to US (3)
Away to El Salvador (3)
17pts total 19pts
Pivotal Games: A point from CR would be huge as well as all three from the US and three more away at difficult El Salvador. I think they have the talent. (edit- with that Mexico game I missed, Honduras and the US will be tied on points... tie-breaker based on Goal Differential? Wow... this could be huge).
El Salvador:
Away to Honduras (0)
Away to T&T (1) (0)
Away to US (0)
Home to Costa Rica (0)
Away to Mexico (0)
Home to Honduras (0)
6pts total 5pts
Pivotal Games: The onslaught of away games will put them in their proper place.
Trinidad & Tobago:
Away to Mexico (0)
Home to El Salvador (1) (3)
Away to Honduras (0)
Home to US (0)
Away to Costa Rica (0)
Home to Mexico (0)
3pts total 5 pts
Pivotal Games: Could be a spoiler more than once, but I don't think they'll have the depth or legs to hang on during the club-team "off"/pre-season.
That puts Costa Rica, Mexico and either the US or Honduras through based on GD, with loser of that tie-break battling it out with CONMEBOL's 5th spot (currently Uruguay).
edit: totally missed Mexico's home game/win vs ES. That changes everything... hope I covered it above.
edit... just re-jiggered the numbers based on actual finishes and my guessed at results- the US is in 4th. They'll need a result at home vs CR and/or away to Honduras. Ugh.
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
Wow. How sad. it really was the best show on the internet for soccer news. Everything else was either boring or not informative enough.I listed every once in a while, and they would read some of my emails over the air (usually talking about Atletico or la Liga).CletiusMaximus said:
People take football pretty damn seriously.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I think that they can get the 3 points at home v. CR. Furthermore, it's quite possible that ELS or TNT can knock some points off the other teams (the US included). Home field is big in these encounters, as we well know.If the US can take MEX umpteen times in a row on US soil, there's no reason that they can't put a hurt on CRC on home turf.Maybe we should be scheduling games in Alaska?
El Floppo
Footballguy
That result v Honduras was a real shocker to me. CR had been really in form, even looked decent against Mexico at Azteca- albeit in a loss. Not sure whether this means Honduras gets the bump up, or CR gets the bump down... either way, considering the shellacking they gave us in San Jose, I didn't see the US getting full points vs the Ticos. Now... mebbe. One advantage is that very few CR fans show up to away games (at least compared to Honduras, Mexico, etc).
El Floppo
Footballguy
I'm not at all religious about it, but I enjoy watching the Fox Football Fone in- was totally in the dark as to why Wynalda was is in there (although I like him- just not the same chemistry as between Steven and Kenny).WTF was going on?
Native
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
U.S. Training Camp Roster for El Salvador (home) and T&T (away):
Goalkeepers Brad Guzan (Aston Villa/England), Tim Howard (Everton/England)
Defenders Carlos Bocanegra (Rennes/France), Jonathan Bornstein (Chivas USA/M.L.S.), Steve Cherundolo (Hannover/Germany), Jay DeMerit (Watford/England), Clarence Goodson (IK Start/Norway), Chad Marshall (Columbus/M.L.S.), Oguchi Onyewu (A.C. Milan/Italy), Jonathan Spector (West Ham/England)
Midfielders Kyle Beckerman (Real Salt Lake/M.L.S.), Michael Bradley (Borussia Mönchengladbach/Germany), Ricardo Clark (Houston/M.L.S.), Clint Dempsey (Fulham/England), Benny Feilhaber (Aarhus/Denmark), Stuart Holden (Houston/M.L.S.), Robbie Rogers (Columbus/M.L.S.), José Francisco Torres (Pachuca/Mexico)
Forwards Jozy Altidore (Hull City/England), Conor Casey (Colorado/M.L.S.), Brian Ching (Houston/M.L.S.), Charlie Davies (Sochaux/France), Landon Donovan (Los Angeles/M.L.S.), Robbie Findley (Real Salt Lake/M.L.S.)
Lineup:
Howard
Cherundolo, DeMerit, Bocanegra, Spector?
Dempsey, Bradley, Feilhaber?/Clark, LD
Davies, Jozy
edit... that's my guessed at lineup
Goalkeepers Brad Guzan (Aston Villa/England), Tim Howard (Everton/England)
Defenders Carlos Bocanegra (Rennes/France), Jonathan Bornstein (Chivas USA/M.L.S.), Steve Cherundolo (Hannover/Germany), Jay DeMerit (Watford/England), Clarence Goodson (IK Start/Norway), Chad Marshall (Columbus/M.L.S.), Oguchi Onyewu (A.C. Milan/Italy), Jonathan Spector (West Ham/England)
Midfielders Kyle Beckerman (Real Salt Lake/M.L.S.), Michael Bradley (Borussia Mönchengladbach/Germany), Ricardo Clark (Houston/M.L.S.), Clint Dempsey (Fulham/England), Benny Feilhaber (Aarhus/Denmark), Stuart Holden (Houston/M.L.S.), Robbie Rogers (Columbus/M.L.S.), José Francisco Torres (Pachuca/Mexico)
Forwards Jozy Altidore (Hull City/England), Conor Casey (Colorado/M.L.S.), Brian Ching (Houston/M.L.S.), Charlie Davies (Sochaux/France), Landon Donovan (Los Angeles/M.L.S.), Robbie Findley (Real Salt Lake/M.L.S.)
Lineup:
Howard
Cherundolo, DeMerit, Bocanegra, Spector?
Dempsey, Bradley, Feilhaber?/Clark, LD
Davies, Jozy
edit... that's my guessed at lineup
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LHUCKS
Footballguy
what's wrong with gooch?
Gooch will miss this game due to yellow card accumulation.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Cohen was discussing Hillsborough last spring, and suggested that one of the causes was that several thousand Liverpool fans were at the stadium without tickets and were trying to force their way in. He was almost certainly wrong on that point (the Taylor report is reportedly not clear as to the number or effect of unticketed fans, and does not ascribe any blame to that aspect of the incident. I have not read the Taylor report, but did hear the podcast in question, which is still available on the website.) Many of his comments were taken out of context or entirely misquoted by various liverpool bloggers and fansites. I believe he at first would not back off his comments, but later apologized. The Liverpool nation went ape#### on him in a disgusting and despicable way, eventually causing him to end the show due to concerns regarding the safety of his family.
eagles2007
Footballguy
i'm going to sound like a total neophyte, but WTF are they doing with these Champions League draws? there should be at least a moderate level of seeding done and no more than 2 seeds placed in any 1 pod. i really don't understand why it is done this way.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
They are seeded - grouped into four "pots" according to the UEFA "coefficient" scoring system referenced earlier in this thread. Its far from perfect (as with FIFA's rating system for national teams), but generally does a decent job. There are also some rules regarding which teams can be drawn together - such as teams from the same league and teams that played each other in qualification. Platini's obsession with keeping it a league of true champions skews it a bit (it ceased being a true champions league many years ago when they started letting in 2nd, 3rd and 4th place teams from the big leagues to improve the competition.) That's why good teams like Celtic and Panathiakos are out while APOEL, Debrecen and FC Zurich are in.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Well, they used the UEFA coefficients. Just so happened that OL, Real Madrid, and Inter finished 9-11 in the seeding and were pool 2 teams
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
And 
at Rapid Vienna eliminating Aston Villa from the "Europa League" today
at Rapid Vienna eliminating Aston Villa from the "Europa League" today
prefontaine
Footballguy
Interesting to see Goodson, Beckerman, Rogers, and Findley on the list. I doubt any of them see the field but some new blood into the mix. Trying to think who got left out....apparently nobody I care about bc I can't see any obvious ones off the top of my head. I really know nothing about Findley either so if anyone has thoughts, I'd be interested. It looks like we haven't officially cap tied him under the new rules (he's only played a friendly) and that is important if we see him as a potential player. Wonder if we would sub him in if we got a nice lead.
andy_b
Footballguy
Does anyone know what the roster size is for World Cup qualifying? I know in the past that players like Findley have been called into camp but never actually made it to the roster due to size limitations.The only ultra small surprise for me was Casey over Cooper. Cooper is off to a nice start in Germany with 2 goals in his first 3 games but his poor play in the Gold Cup may have sealed his fate for this round of qualifiers.
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Sammy3469
Footballguy
Should be 23...they have 24 in camp, since he's not eligible for the first game. I think they will have to drop on guy between games.
Read an article yesterday that Platini wants to make a rule that a club must be profitable in order to qualify for CL play. That should make things interesting...for the accounting departments.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
I get the impression that the Italian teams aren't in good financial shape (maybe its more like fact, but ho really knows with these guys) and that these top teams are really angling to start the process of forming a truer Euro-league with set teams in it (ie the Big 4 in England w/o ManCity and no promotion/regulation). How they pull that off is another matter, but they certainly don't want an upstart upsetting the apple cart at this juncture.
andy_b
Footballguy
23 does not sound correct. 23 is the World Cup Finals roster size, I don't think that is the World Cup qualifying size but I could be wrong.For example, the US recently brought 20 players as their roster size down to Mexico.
Next stop . . . salary cap!
prefontaine
Footballguy
I thought they could name 23 for a particular game but only 18 can dress. I assume Gooch is not named for ES but then Goodson gets dropped. But maybe it's 20 for a particular game given the Mexico thing. These 24 are just the guys that are brought into training camp. Btw, I doubt Cooper gets any more looks in WCQ. Dude has been awful (so has Casey) and barring an injury, I don't see any outside of Davies, Jozy, Ching seeing the field up top. And if we have an injury, I could see LD or Dempsey playing a withdrawn striker role and sliding Holden or Torres into the midfield.andy_b said:
El Floppo
Footballguy
Pretty sure teams dress 18, per Pre.edit- checked the score-card for the Mexico game and they had 18 players listed.
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prefontaine
Footballguy
I know this section is huge. When I went* I was 16 and everyone my age spoke english and Germany is so like America that it never bothered me. But several of my teammates were freaked by the culture shock and language barrier. Just getting to spend some time in Vancouver will help in their comfort zone if they have any problem at all with it. Then again, after reading Renken's story, he's been through so much I can't see him having culture shock. But we've had several players who haven't fared well in such environments so it is good to hear they are going to a good situation. *I played on a select team that did a tour of the Netherlands and West Germany. At the time I was pretty naive about European football and we trained with Stuttgart for a week or so (which really didn't mean much to me at the time other than it was the best training facility I'd ever seen). However, it was glaringly obvious to me that even the players I thought were our best shouldn't even be on the same pitch as theirs.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Landon DonovanTotally agree with you about Renken- after what that kid's been through, I can't imagine moving to a new, highly developed country is going to bother him much.I have a few Germany stories I'll share later this weekend when I get a moment- would love to hear more about your Stuttgart, Netherlands trip. I will say- on three separate youth trips (13, 16, 17), we had plenty of players on par with the best I saw there.
prefontaine
Footballguy
Warning, long, boring personal story ahead. I edited it to be much shorter so be thankful 
In spring of '88, I went on a 3 and a half week tour of the Netherlands and West Germany. A lot of the details are pretty fuzzy at this point and I honestly haven't thought much about this in the past 20 years. At the time, I was a teenager with a teenager's focus. I loved all the cool soccer gear you could get everywhere there and the fact that I could order beer and nobody batted an eye; I spent time checking out the girls and we thought the autobahn was cool and tried to see how fast the vans we rented would go. A fun trip but my focus was probably not on the details of what was going on about me as I was a very self-absorbed 16 year old.
Anyway, the focal point of the trip was a tournament sponsored by TSV (1860 Munich). It was held the last week we were there. As an overview, we had a couple of friendlies in Amsterdam and then headed to Stuttgart where we stayed for about a week and trained with VfB Stuttgart's youth squad. I knew nothing about either German club but can verify my memory via the gear we exchanged (I have a Stuttgart jersey and an 1860 Munich towel).
We arrived in Amsterdam and after a day or so of screwing around (we were supposed to be getting over jetlag but we were all pretty stoked so while the coaches slept, we hit the town) we had a game in the Amsterdam area. I don't remember much about it except that it was in the middle of nowhere. I felt like we were on someone's farm that had a couple of fields built on it - well except they had first class lockerrooms. We drew that game 2-2. I remember that vividly because we were all disappointed that we didn't win and saying to each other how we should have won but this and that or whatever. I look back now and laugh because this was quite literally the only game we even were close to evenly matched. I think it must have been a bunch of farmers' kids that showed up to play us. We played another game in the city the next day. We fought like hell to only lose 1-0 but the field was seriously tilted.
From there we headed into Germany, We played a match in Frankfort and then spent a day or two there before moving on to Stuttgart where we stayed with families and not at a hotel, so that was a different experience - while all the shopping and such seemed very American, the family I stayed with seemed different (they spoke little english) and they lived in what looked like a gingerbread house. We worked with the youth squad and coaches at their facility for a few days. I mentioned that we were seriously outclassed. I realized it pretty early on as we were doing drills. We did a 5v5 drill where we were supposed to one touch pass the whole time and we supremely sucked at it.
Watching them though was amazing. They moved like clockwork and their understanding of where to go and spacing was just tremendous. It really showed when they played too. I remember one of their coaches yelling in German about something so I asked a kid what was going on and he told me the guy made a bad run and clogged up the spacing. It just wasn't anything we'd ever even discussed. We did little 3 on 2 drills and pig in the middle type stuff but no one ever told me how to make a run to make best use of space. But here they were keying off of each other's runs effortlessly.
I think Floppo mentioned that he thought the players on his team were of the same caliber. It's likely he was playing with better players but from my point of view, we just didn't have anyone that saw the game like even their worst players. Technically, we were every bit as good. Our passes were as crisp, our offensive 1v1 skills were actually probably better, our shots were just as strong and accurate. But they made better runs, always seemed to be perfectly positioned (offensively or defensively) and simply moved better than we did. And it wasn't even close. Oh, and their set pieces were miles ahead of ours but it didn't hurt that they had a few absolute monsters (I would guess they had at least three guys that were built like Gooch). But they practiced set pieces and really worked on them while we were basically doing it on the fly.
On Sunday we went to the park where a lot of us played a pick up game with our hosts and some of their friends. That was one of the most fun games I ever played because we mixed teams and playing with those guys was just amazing. You felt awesome when you delivered a pass into space and it just beat everyone. It made me think I could play on their level. But at the end of that week, we played a game against them and that didn't go well.
We then went to Munich to prepare for the tournament (they were also playing in it). I would guess there were 8 or so teams from around the area that were playing and iirc, it was a double elimination thing. We played our first game and got smoked sending us into the losers bracket for day 2. That second game was the most miserable game I ever played. We were so run off the field that one of our defenders got so frustrated he picked up the ball - in play - and punted it as far as he could. Naturally he got red carded. I have no idea the final score but I do know their coach told them to stop scoring and the last 5 minutes of the game they just passed it around. It was embarrassing on so many levels. I would guess it was in the range of 7 or 8-nil.
We watched a pro match in Munich the last day (we voted on that or going to Dachau and everyone voted for the game). I don't remember who played and I can only assume Bayern or 1860. As I wrote this, I went to look to see where they play and from the pictures I'm pretty sure it was Sechzger Stadion which means we saw 1860 Munich. It seemed bigger to me back in the day but the pictures seem right. It definitely was not Olympiastadion because there was a roof at the top of the deck.
I probably forgot a bunch of interesting stuff but the memories I really have are things like being the anchorman trying to finish a giant boot of beer, trying to figure out why Milky Ways had nuts but Mars bars did not, watching "Dallas" in Dutch and some old Hollywood WWII movie in German, going to the Mercedes headquarters, making up English "German words" by just jamming a bunchofwordstogether, getting into a fight with a teammate on the road, and buying some pimped out adidas gear (we all ended up looking like they did in Dude, Where's My Car?....the 80s ruled). Anyway, fun trip, but not exactly relevant to anything really....so back to your regularly scheduled football updates.
In spring of '88, I went on a 3 and a half week tour of the Netherlands and West Germany. A lot of the details are pretty fuzzy at this point and I honestly haven't thought much about this in the past 20 years. At the time, I was a teenager with a teenager's focus. I loved all the cool soccer gear you could get everywhere there and the fact that I could order beer and nobody batted an eye; I spent time checking out the girls and we thought the autobahn was cool and tried to see how fast the vans we rented would go. A fun trip but my focus was probably not on the details of what was going on about me as I was a very self-absorbed 16 year old.
Anyway, the focal point of the trip was a tournament sponsored by TSV (1860 Munich). It was held the last week we were there. As an overview, we had a couple of friendlies in Amsterdam and then headed to Stuttgart where we stayed for about a week and trained with VfB Stuttgart's youth squad. I knew nothing about either German club but can verify my memory via the gear we exchanged (I have a Stuttgart jersey and an 1860 Munich towel).
We arrived in Amsterdam and after a day or so of screwing around (we were supposed to be getting over jetlag but we were all pretty stoked so while the coaches slept, we hit the town) we had a game in the Amsterdam area. I don't remember much about it except that it was in the middle of nowhere. I felt like we were on someone's farm that had a couple of fields built on it - well except they had first class lockerrooms. We drew that game 2-2. I remember that vividly because we were all disappointed that we didn't win and saying to each other how we should have won but this and that or whatever. I look back now and laugh because this was quite literally the only game we even were close to evenly matched. I think it must have been a bunch of farmers' kids that showed up to play us. We played another game in the city the next day. We fought like hell to only lose 1-0 but the field was seriously tilted.
From there we headed into Germany, We played a match in Frankfort and then spent a day or two there before moving on to Stuttgart where we stayed with families and not at a hotel, so that was a different experience - while all the shopping and such seemed very American, the family I stayed with seemed different (they spoke little english) and they lived in what looked like a gingerbread house. We worked with the youth squad and coaches at their facility for a few days. I mentioned that we were seriously outclassed. I realized it pretty early on as we were doing drills. We did a 5v5 drill where we were supposed to one touch pass the whole time and we supremely sucked at it.
Watching them though was amazing. They moved like clockwork and their understanding of where to go and spacing was just tremendous. It really showed when they played too. I remember one of their coaches yelling in German about something so I asked a kid what was going on and he told me the guy made a bad run and clogged up the spacing. It just wasn't anything we'd ever even discussed. We did little 3 on 2 drills and pig in the middle type stuff but no one ever told me how to make a run to make best use of space. But here they were keying off of each other's runs effortlessly.
I think Floppo mentioned that he thought the players on his team were of the same caliber. It's likely he was playing with better players but from my point of view, we just didn't have anyone that saw the game like even their worst players. Technically, we were every bit as good. Our passes were as crisp, our offensive 1v1 skills were actually probably better, our shots were just as strong and accurate. But they made better runs, always seemed to be perfectly positioned (offensively or defensively) and simply moved better than we did. And it wasn't even close. Oh, and their set pieces were miles ahead of ours but it didn't hurt that they had a few absolute monsters (I would guess they had at least three guys that were built like Gooch). But they practiced set pieces and really worked on them while we were basically doing it on the fly.
On Sunday we went to the park where a lot of us played a pick up game with our hosts and some of their friends. That was one of the most fun games I ever played because we mixed teams and playing with those guys was just amazing. You felt awesome when you delivered a pass into space and it just beat everyone. It made me think I could play on their level. But at the end of that week, we played a game against them and that didn't go well.
We then went to Munich to prepare for the tournament (they were also playing in it). I would guess there were 8 or so teams from around the area that were playing and iirc, it was a double elimination thing. We played our first game and got smoked sending us into the losers bracket for day 2. That second game was the most miserable game I ever played. We were so run off the field that one of our defenders got so frustrated he picked up the ball - in play - and punted it as far as he could. Naturally he got red carded. I have no idea the final score but I do know their coach told them to stop scoring and the last 5 minutes of the game they just passed it around. It was embarrassing on so many levels. I would guess it was in the range of 7 or 8-nil.
We watched a pro match in Munich the last day (we voted on that or going to Dachau and everyone voted for the game). I don't remember who played and I can only assume Bayern or 1860. As I wrote this, I went to look to see where they play and from the pictures I'm pretty sure it was Sechzger Stadion which means we saw 1860 Munich. It seemed bigger to me back in the day but the pictures seem right. It definitely was not Olympiastadion because there was a roof at the top of the deck.
I probably forgot a bunch of interesting stuff but the memories I really have are things like being the anchorman trying to finish a giant boot of beer, trying to figure out why Milky Ways had nuts but Mars bars did not, watching "Dallas" in Dutch and some old Hollywood WWII movie in German, going to the Mercedes headquarters, making up English "German words" by just jamming a bunchofwordstogether, getting into a fight with a teammate on the road, and buying some pimped out adidas gear (we all ended up looking like they did in Dude, Where's My Car?....the 80s ruled). Anyway, fun trip, but not exactly relevant to anything really....so back to your regularly scheduled football updates.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Caught the first half of the Chelsea v Burnley game... made me immediately think of US v Mexico at Azteca.
After 5 minutes, Burnley was buried deep in their own half without having really touched the ball... but as opposed to the US, they finally settled down and did their best to imprint their game in the match. Despite being hugely outmatched in terms of class, they still tried to: put passes together, stay compact as a team, and put higher pressure on Chelsea (none of which the US tried to do).
Now- the gap in class between these two club teams IMO is much larger than gap between Mexico and the US, but Burnley still did their best to play their own game, even if it meant coming up short in the first half, and even if it meant not always- or even often- being successful with it. Grossly outmatched outside backs did their best to find their midfielders, and when forced (quite often) to put the ball downfield, the team was compact enough to get the MFs quickly in support of their forwards. Ok- Ansfield is no Azteca, but still... made me cringe remembering how poorly the US played.
After 5 minutes, Burnley was buried deep in their own half without having really touched the ball... but as opposed to the US, they finally settled down and did their best to imprint their game in the match. Despite being hugely outmatched in terms of class, they still tried to: put passes together, stay compact as a team, and put higher pressure on Chelsea (none of which the US tried to do).
Now- the gap in class between these two club teams IMO is much larger than gap between Mexico and the US, but Burnley still did their best to play their own game, even if it meant coming up short in the first half, and even if it meant not always- or even often- being successful with it. Grossly outmatched outside backs did their best to find their midfielders, and when forced (quite often) to put the ball downfield, the team was compact enough to get the MFs quickly in support of their forwards. Ok- Ansfield is no Azteca, but still... made me cringe remembering how poorly the US played.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Warning, long, boring personal story ahead. I edited it to be much shorter so be thankfulIn spring of '88, I went on a 3 and a half week tour of the Netherlands and West Germany. A lot of the details are pretty fuzzy at this point and I honestly haven't thought much about this in the past 20 years. At the time, I was a teenager with a teenager's focus. I loved all the cool soccer gear you could get everywhere there and the fact that I could order beer and nobody batted an eye; I spent time checking out the girls and we thought the autobahn was cool and tried to see how fast the vans we rented would go. A fun trip but my focus was probably not on the details of what was going on about me as I was a very self-absorbed 16 year old.Anyway, the focal point of the trip was a tournament sponsored by TSV (1860 Munich). It was held the last week we were there. As an overview, we had a couple of friendlies in Amsterdam and then headed to Stuttgart where we stayed for about a week and trained with VfB Stuttgart's youth squad. I knew nothing about either German club but can verify my memory via the gear we exchanged (I have a Stuttgart jersey and an 1860 Munich towel).We arrived in Amsterdam and after a day or so of screwing around (we were supposed to be getting over jetlag but we were all pretty stoked so while the coaches slept, we hit the town) we had a game in the Amsterdam area. I don't remember much about it except that it was in the middle of nowhere. I felt like we were on someone's farm that had a couple of fields built on it - well except they had first class lockerrooms. We drew that game 2-2. I remember that vividly because we were all disappointed that we didn't win and saying to each other how we should have won but this and that or whatever. I look back now and laugh because this was quite literally the only game we even were close to evenly matched. I think it must have been a bunch of farmers' kids that showed up to play us. We played another game in the city the next day. We fought like hell to only lose 1-0 but the field was seriously tilted.From there we headed into Germany, We played a match in Frankfort and then spent a day or two there before moving on to Stuttgart where we stayed with families and not at a hotel, so that was a different experience - while all the shopping and such seemed very American, the family I stayed with seemed different (they spoke little english) and they lived in what looked like a gingerbread house. We worked with the youth squad and coaches at their facility for a few days. I mentioned that we were seriously outclassed. I realized it pretty early on as we were doing drills. We did a 5v5 drill where we were supposed to one touch pass the whole time and we supremely sucked at it.Watching them though was amazing. They moved like clockwork and their understanding of where to go and spacing was just tremendous. It really showed when they played too. I remember one of their coaches yelling in German about something so I asked a kid what was going on and he told me the guy made a bad run and clogged up the spacing. It just wasn't anything we'd ever even discussed. We did little 3 on 2 drills and pig in the middle type stuff but no one ever told me how to make a run to make best use of space. But here they were keying off of each other's runs effortlessly.I think Floppo mentioned that he thought the players on his team were of the same caliber. It's likely he was playing with better players but from my point of view, we just didn't have anyone that saw the game like even their worst players. Technically, we were every bit as good. Our passes were as crisp, our offensive 1v1 skills were actually probably better, our shots were just as strong and accurate. But they made better runs, always seemed to be perfectly positioned (offensively or defensively) and simply moved better than we did. And it wasn't even close. Oh, and their set pieces were miles ahead of ours but it didn't hurt that they had a few absolute monsters (I would guess they had at least three guys that were built like Gooch). But they practiced set pieces and really worked on them while we were basically doing it on the fly.On Sunday we went to the park where a lot of us played a pick up game with our hosts and some of their friends. That was one of the most fun games I ever played because we mixed teams and playing with those guys was just amazing. You felt awesome when you delivered a pass into space and it just beat everyone. It made me think I could play on their level. But at the end of that week, we played a game against them and that didn't go well. We then went to Munich to prepare for the tournament (they were also playing in it). I would guess there were 8 or so teams from around the area that were playing and iirc, it was a double elimination thing. We played our first game and got smoked sending us into the losers bracket for day 2. That second game was the most miserable game I ever played. We were so run off the field that one of our defenders got so frustrated he picked up the ball - in play - and punted it as far as he could. Naturally he got red carded. I have no idea the final score but I do know their coach told them to stop scoring and the last 5 minutes of the game they just passed it around. It was embarrassing on so many levels. I would guess it was in the range of 7 or 8-nil.We watched a pro match in Munich the last day (we voted on that or going to Dachau and everyone voted for the game). I don't remember who played and I can only assume Bayern or 1860. As I wrote this, I went to look to see where they play and from the pictures I'm pretty sure it was Sechzger Stadion which means we saw 1860 Munich. It seemed bigger to me back in the day but the pictures seem right. It definitely was not Olympiastadion because there was a roof at the top of the deck.I probably forgot a bunch of interesting stuff but the memories I really have are things like being the anchorman trying to finish a giant boot of beer, trying to figure out why Milky Ways had nuts but Mars bars did not, watching "Dallas" in Dutch and some old Hollywood WWII movie in German, going to the Mercedes headquarters, making up English "German words" by just jamming a bunchofwordstogether, getting into a fight with a teammate on the road, and buying some pimped out adidas gear (we all ended up looking like they did in Dude, Where's My Car?....the 80s ruled). Anyway, fun trip, but not exactly relevant to anything really....so back to your regularly scheduled football updates.
and Great stuff Pre!I think Amsterdam was the cheapest hub to fly into in the 80s- went through there twice with teams, but never got to play there (hello Red-Light district!).What level was your team? I think you said it was a select team- were you guys a good team back home?I think it's amazingly cool you guys got to train with the Stuttgart youth team- that's something I never really got to do.But all the non-soccer stuff- lol- EXACTLY the same kinda #### we were getting ourselves into- girls, pubs, and most definitely Soccer 
gear.
prefontaine
Footballguy
Our team was pretty good but I have no frame of reference really. We pretty much beat the teams we played and I can't remember ever losing much. It was quite a shock to all of us how bad we got run over in Germany. As far as what level, this sounds dumb but I really don't know. I played on a club team until about 14 and then I was invited to join this squad which played against regional teams. I think it was called "select" but I may be making that up now tbh (or confusing it with baseball). I quit playing the following year because my high school didn't have a team and I was involved in other sports at school (track and baseball). As to the training, our coach had some in with Stuttgart. I think he lived in Germany for a bit and maybe played there for a while. I wish I could say we earned the right to be there but I think it was just knowing the right people.and
Great stuff Pre!
I think Amsterdam was the cheapest hub to fly into in the 80s- went through there twice with teams, but never got to play there (hello Red-Light district!).
What level was your team? I think you said it was a select team- were you guys a good team back home?
I think it's amazingly cool you guys got to train with the Stuttgart youth team- that's something I never really got to do.
But all the non-soccer stuff- lol- EXACTLY the same kinda #### we were getting ourselves into- girls, pubs, and most definitely Soccer
Btw, wishing the full matching shiny sweat suits were still in fashion so I could go get me some bright blue ones just like I got that year!
derek245583
Footballguy
What a goal in theTott'Ham game...95th minute winner...
This soccer thing is pretty neat.
This soccer thing is pretty neat.
Now this is what it's all aboutCouple of very nice games to watch todayManU/ArsenalInter Milan/AC MilanBeginning of La Liga features Real unveiling their all star lineup
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