***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (2 Viewers)

[T Bell]

So that leads me to my only point to make here. Brazil is now the best team in the world. I think that's clear. They are young, talented, physical, tactically aware, have excellent coaching, and certainly have a killer instinct. Spain is on the downside, as their core is aging rapidly and the players waiting in the wings aren't up to the same world class level as the golden generation of Spanish players.

I don't know about that. Brazil is certainly resurgent and you have to put them easily within the top 3 favorites to win the World Cup, but home soil has a disproportionately high affect upon performance. As for Spain, their performance was so shockingly bad that I have to think of it more as an aberration, especially one I link to fatigue (from the Italy match and the 5th game in 2 weeks), and to Brazil playing on home soil. The future looks bright for Spain. They have guys in their prime like Cesc to pick up for Xavi and others who are showing their age, and they still have the best youth training system in the world and a LOT of young talent coming through. Spain will be a serious contender to win internationally for the next decade.

I don't think anyone is really questioning that. However, they are at a relatively awkward point for them vis a vis 2014 as Xavi, Iniesta, Torres, Villa will all be 30+ and the young guys on Real and Barca shouldn't be getting any playing time to develop (and you can't tell me that Cesc, Pedro...current second isn't anything other than a step down).

It also doesn't help that apparently there are different factions in their camp.

Biggest problem for Spain is how ineffective Villa and Torres have become. Need to give more time to Soldado or Llorente upfront. Morata should be an option for the WC as well.

They also missed Xabi Alonso a good deal. Surprised that Javi Martinez didn't feature more alongside Busquets.

I agree. They do seem pretty toothless at striker. They've all but admitted that by playing 4-6-0 at times in the last year (though not in the Confed Cup to my knowledge).

As an Arsenal fan it feels all too familiar. You're great at maintaining possession but unlocking the opponent's 18-yard box is difficult.

I also think they're pretty wobbly at the back. Iker Casillas didn't exactly give his best performance against Brazil, and that first goal by Brazil was from some very clueless defending by the CB's.

 

[The Z Machine]

Piqué was more than bad yesterday.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Well, I think it's a bit of an over reaction to immediately label a Brazil side that was struggling in friendlies this year as the best team in the world. They were the best team in the tournament, to be sure. And they will have a big advantage next year against European teams, particularly European teams that press (I think Brazil 2014 could be a nightmare tournament for a team like Germany, that presses so relentlessly).

But Uruguay played Brazil very tough, and there are better teams than Uruguay in South America in Argentina and Columbia right now. Brazil still has some problems in depth, and any mistake in a knockout round can cost you the way Felipe Melo's red card did in South Africa. Gustavo and Paulinho strike me as absolutely essential players for Brazil (along with Neymar). And while he had a very good final, Hulk's underwhelming rest of the tournament left me less than convinced.

Finally, even with everything against Spain, they still had a penalty saved and a ball improbably cleared off the line, as well as some fine saves from Julio Caesar. I do think Spain's balance is a bit off (Xavi has hopefully learned the importance of Xabi Alonso, but in any case they can't afford to lose Xabi AND Cesc, IMO). Spain and Barca are both different teams with Alba. He adds a lot offensively, but he presents serious issues on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Piqué was more than bad yesterday.

Pretty sure his day ended with him having sex with Shakira. Which seems to be conclusive proof that Pique's worst day is better than my best.

 

[Bonzai]

Informal poll for soccer people:

Which of the following better defines the term "hospital ball"?

Choice A - a physically-weak pass or shot that doesn't make it/barely makes it to its intended target - it dies on the way there, hence a hospital ball

Choice B - a very poor pass that puts your teammate into a terrible situation/leads them right into a defender's tackle - your pass is going to put your teammate in the hospital, hence a hospital ball

Choice C - I use it to describe something different (please elaborate)

I've heard it used as B in an American football context, describing a pass over the middle to a receiver, which leaves the receiver open to a big hit, usually because it was thrown too high.

I've also heard it as C, as another name for a medicine ball or training ball.

Why do you ask?

I was talking to a friend yesterday about the Italy/Uruguay game and he referred to one of the Uruguayan PKs as a hospital ball. I told him I thought he was using the term incorrectly, and he described to me that he's always heard it as Choice A - the shot was so weak it essentially died before it got to Buffon and he made the easy save. I have always heard it described as Choice B....and a weak shot on a PK would definitely not fit that bill.

Just wondering if it was a regional thing or if I've been using the term incorrectly for years. He's from Cincinnati area.

I'm from the Cincinnati area as well and I've never heard the term before.

 

[The Z Machine]

Cesc is no Xavi. Pedro is no Villa. No Spanish defenders have the tactical awareness of Puyol.

 

[Slapdash]

Cesc is no Xavi. Pedro is no Villa. No Spanish defenders have the tactical awareness of Puyol.

Villa isn't even Villa.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I think definition A for a "hospital ball" is just a subspecies of definition B. A hospital ball is a ball that puts the receiving player in a bad position, but in my youth, that usually happened when the ball was underhit and sold the receiver short. For instance, I can't really remember someone using the term when a pass was hit at an appropriate speed but the pass itself was ill-advised because the receiver had two defenders in pressing position.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Cesc is no Xavi. Pedro is no Villa. No Spanish defenders have the tactical awareness of Puyol.

Cesc is something different. I thought he was their best player in the group stages. He gave them a directness that they just don't have without him.

That's the challenge. I have no doubt that Spain have players in the pipeline to regroup. But it drives me nuts to hear them referred to as "Tiki Taka." I don't think of Thiago, or Isco, or Muniain as Tiki Taka. Same with Navas, for that matter.

 

[Sinn Fein]

As bad as Spain played yesterday, and it was pretty bad, they still had 3 clear goal-scoring opportunities: The kick save by Luiz, the missed PK, and there was another opportunity in the second half - can't recall who had it, but it was essentially one-on-one with the keeper from the left side and pushed the shot wide. All three of those were makable goals, and its a much different outcome. I don't think they need to push the panic button just yet.

Although both Italy and Brazil really took it to Spain, in terms of style of play - both were the aggressor, and more physical. They may need to figure out how best to play against that style.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I think definition A for a "hospital ball" is just a subspecies of definition B. A hospital ball is a ball that puts the receiving player in a bad position, but in my youth, that usually happened when the ball was underhit and sold the receiver short. For instance, I can't really remember someone using the term when a pass was hit at an appropriate speed but the pass itself was ill-advised because the receiver had two defenders in pressing position.

We used it as more or less a description of a sick pass, not necessarily the player in danger of getting crushed. Usually it was a hospital pass when it never reached its intended target. It was a term we used in high school, I don't recall if we used it in college.

 

[The Z Machine]

Unfortunately, Spain's previous tactics against high pressure is to move the ball more quickly through from the defense to the central midfield. That wasn't possible yesterday due to a number of factors. The least of which is that Xavi and Iniesta were dispossessed more than I think I've ever seen. The passing lanes were cut down more than ever and the "small movements" that defined the skills necessary to execute the one-touch passes simply was slower or not there for Spain.

I think that the only effective way to combat that is to add in the ability to counter with lethal speed when needed. Utilizing Xabi more, better wing true wing play, and a striker that can beat a man in a sprint are key. Essentially, they will need to become less Barcelona circa 2010. They will need to work their tactics around Xabi and Cesc, not Xavi and Iniesta.

 

[GoFishTN]

Paulinho on his way to Spurs. A midfield of him/Sandro/Dembele will be nice. Still no strikers though.

 

[onionsack]

Informal poll for soccer people:

Which of the following better defines the term "hospital ball"?

Choice A - a physically-weak pass or shot that doesn't make it/barely makes it to its intended target - it dies on the way there, hence a hospital ball

Choice B - a very poor pass that puts your teammate into a terrible situation/leads them right into a defender's tackle - your pass is going to put your teammate in the hospital, hence a hospital ball

Choice C - I use it to describe something different (please elaborate)

B. And the term is "hospital pass"

 

[bweiser]

Piqué was more than bad yesterday.

Pretty sure his day ended with him having sex with Shakira. Which seems to be conclusive proof that Pique's worst day is better than my best.

Pretty sure this is the best post on the page.

Really enjoyed watching Neymar. Yeah, he hams it up. Who cares? His goal against Spain was pretty heads-up, getting back onside and making the play.

On an MLS note: Just got done watching Saturday's Union-FC Dallas match. Horribly officiated at the end. (Yeah, I'm a homer and we wound up tying instead of winning). I hate Zac MacMath almost as much as I hated Chris Seitz.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

10 years ago today --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3036838.stm

Thank you, Roman.

2003/04
2004/05 - Premier League, League Cup
2005/06 - Premier League, Community Shield
2006/07 - FA Cup, League Cup
2007/08
2008/09 - FA Cup
2009/10 - Premier League, FA Cup, Community Shield, FA Youth Cup
2010/11 - FA Premier Reserve League
2011/12 - Champions League, FA Cup, FA Youth Cup
2012/13 - Europa League

 

[T Bell]

10 years ago today --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3036838.stm

Thank you, Roman.

2003/04

2004/05 - Premier League, League Cup

2005/06 - Premier League, Community Shield

2006/07 - FA Cup, League Cup

2007/08

2008/09 - FA Cup

2009/10 - Premier League, FA Cup, Community Shield, FA Youth Cup

2010/11 - FA Premier Reserve League

2011/12 - Champions League, FA Cup, FA Youth Cup

2012/13 - Europa League

This is the soccer version of creationism.

History started a long time before that.

 

[Native]

10 years ago today --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3036838.stm

Thank you, Roman.

2003/04

2004/05 - Premier League, League Cup

2005/06 - Premier League, Community Shield

2006/07 - FA Cup, League Cup

2007/08

2008/09 - FA Cup

2009/10 - Premier League, FA Cup, Community Shield, FA Youth Cup

2010/11 - FA Premier Reserve League

2011/12 - Champions League, FA Cup, FA Youth Cup

2012/13 - Europa League

 

[Native]

Sky Sports News ‏@Sky_Sports_N1h
Edinson Cavani has admitted he LOVES Brian McDermott and could possibly turn down a move to Chelsea, in favour of a move to Leeds #SSN

 

[T Bell]

Sky Sports News ‏@Sky_Sports_N1h
Edinson Cavani has admitted he LOVES Brian McDermott and could possibly turn down a move to Chelsea, in favour of a move to Leeds #SSN

I love transfer season.

 

[The Gator]

10 years ago today --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3036838.stm

Thank you, Roman.

2003/04

2004/05 - Premier League, League Cup

2005/06 - Premier League, Community Shield

2006/07 - FA Cup, League Cup

2007/08

2008/09 - FA Cup

2009/10 - Premier League, FA Cup, Community Shield, FA Youth Cup

2010/11 - FA Premier Reserve League

2011/12 - Champions League, FA Cup, FA Youth Cup

2012/13 - Europa League

This is the soccer version of creationism.

History started a long time before that.

They have no history....

 

[CletiusMaximus]

10 years ago today --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3036838.stm

Thank you, Roman.

2003/04

2004/05 - Premier League, League Cup2005/06 - Premier League, Community Shield2006/07 - FA Cup, League Cup2007/082008/09 - FA Cup2009/10 - Premier League, FA Cup, Community Shield, FA Youth Cup2010/11 - FA Premier Reserve League2011/12 - Champions League, FA Cup, FA Youth Cup2012/13 - Europa League

This is the soccer version of creationism.

History started a long time before that.

They have no history....

If we repeat the past ten years of success, then do it again, I think CFC will have to be considered a legitimate big club. The good news is that Abramovich seems to be committed to the club (a big concern early on) and has invested heavily in the youth academy and training facilities as well as numerous programs promoting the brand on a worldwide basis.

 

[The Gator]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

 

[The Gator]

Jozy to Sunderland seems to be close....

 

[Native]

10 years ago today --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3036838.stm

Thank you, Roman.

2003/04

2004/05 - Premier League, League Cup2005/06 - Premier League, Community Shield2006/07 - FA Cup, League Cup2007/082008/09 - FA Cup2009/10 - Premier League, FA Cup, Community Shield, FA Youth Cup2010/11 - FA Premier Reserve League2011/12 - Champions League, FA Cup, FA Youth Cup2012/13 - Europa League

This is the soccer version of creationism.

History started a long time before that.

They have no history....

If we repeat the past ten years of success, then do it again, I think CFC will have to be considered a legitimate big club. The good news is that Abramovich seems to be committed to the club (a big concern early on) and has invested heavily in the youth academy and training facilities as well as numerous programs promoting the brand on a worldwide basis.

In 1904 Gus Mears acquired the Stamford Bridge athletics stadium with the aim of turning it into a football ground. An offer to lease it to nearby Fulham was turned down, so Mears opted to found his own club to use the stadium. As there was already a team named Fulham in the borough, the name of the adjacent borough of Chelsea was chosen for the new club; names like Kensington FC, Stamford Bridge FC and London FC were also considered. Chelsea were founded on 10 March 1905 at The Rising Sun pub (now The Butcher's Hook),[1] opposite the present-day main entrance to the ground on Fulham Road, and were elected to the Football League shortly afterwards.

The club won promotion to the First Division in their second season, and yo-yoed between the First and Second Divisions in their early years. They reached the 1915 FA Cup Final, where they lost to Sheffield United at Old Trafford, and finished 3rd in the First Division in 1920, the club's best league campaign to that point.[14] Chelsea attracted large crowds[15] and had a reputation for signing big-name players,[16] but success continued to elude the club in the inter-war years. Former Arsenal and England centre-forward Ted Drake became manager in 1952 and proceeded to modernise the club. He removed the club's Chelsea pensioner crest, improved the youth set-up and training regime, rebuilt the side with shrewd signings from the lower divisions and amateur leagues, and led Chelsea to their first major trophy success – the League championship – in 1954–55. The following season saw UEFA create the European Champions' Cup, but after objections from The Football League and the FA Chelsea were persuaded to withdraw from the competition before it started.[17] Chelsea failed to build on this success, and spent the remainder of the 1950s in mid-table. Drake was dismissed in 1961 and replaced by player-coach Tommy Docherty.

Docherty built a new team around the group of talented young players emerging from the club's youth set-up and Chelsea challenged for honours throughout the 1960s, enduring several near-misses. They were on course for a treble of League, FA Cup and League Cup going into the final stages of the 1964–65 season, winning the League Cup but faltering late on in the other two.[18] In three seasons the side were beaten in three major semi-finals and were FA Cup runners-up. Under Docherty's successor, Dave Sexton, Chelsea won the FA Cup in 1970, beating Leeds United 2–1 in a final replay. Chelsea took their first European honour, a UEFA Cup Winners' Cup triumph, the following year, with another replayed win, this time over Real Madrid in Athens.

We aint got no History! :confetti:

 

[jonessed]

Sky Sports News ‏@Sky_Sports_N1h

Edinson Cavani has admitted he LOVES Brian McDermott and could possibly turn down a move to Chelsea, in favour of a move to Leeds #SSN

I love transfer season.

Cavani needs to jump on the Elland Road train while he still has a chance. Leeds United is one narcissistic billionaire from being the next Real Madrid.

 

[jonessed]

Jozy to Sunderland seems to be close....

That would be sweet.

 

[Native]

Jozy to Sunderland seems to be close....

That would be sweet.

That would be awful. Dont want him to leave Holland until after the World Cup.

 

[Native]

Sky Sports News ‏@Sky_Sports_N1h

Edinson Cavani has admitted he LOVES Brian McDermott and could possibly turn down a move to Chelsea, in favour of a move to Leeds #SSN

I love transfer season.

Cavani needs to jump on the Elland Road train while he still has a chance. Leeds United is one narcissistic billionaire from being the next Real Madrid.

Doubt he can even beat out Mark Viduka for a starting spot.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

 

[jonessed]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Neither Sturridge or Lukaku were products of the Chelsea academy.

And I don't think that this "ruins" the youth system. That's just a reality of top European clubs. Youth team players rarely come up and get first team minutes for Real Madrid or for Bayern anymore. It's becoming increasingly rare at Barcelona, who are about to lose the guy we've all considered their star of the future for the past 4 years now. The game has changed and smart teams will now sell off their best academy players with generous buy-back clauses so that they can prove themselves against better competition and still be available at a good price if they succeed.

It's just a weird complaint. What did Chelsea's academy system ever win them?

 

[Native]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.

This seems like a rather unique development system. I can't think of anyone else that does this to the same extent.

Its pretty infuriating if you ask me. Dont know why the buy all these kids and never give them a chance at first team football. Rather than buying Cavani or Rooney, why not finally give Lukaku a chance? Same with De Bruyne. A few years ago, Gael Kakuta was the best youth prospect at Chelsea, but we loaned him out every year while we bought 8-10 attacking mid's - everyone from superstars such as Hazard and Mata to head scratchers such as Marko Marin and Benayoun. He was never even given a fair chance.

I prefer buyng young talent instead of expensive established stars. But only if the team gives them a chance to prove themselves, which for whatever reason the team rarely does.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Neither Sturridge or Lukaku were products of the Chelsea academy.

And I don't think that this "ruins" the youth system. That's just a reality of top European clubs. Youth team players rarely come up and get first team minutes for Real Madrid or for Bayern anymore. It's becoming increasingly rare at Barcelona, who are about to lose the guy we've all considered their star of the future for the past 4 years now. The game has changed and smart teams will now sell off their best academy players with generous buy-back clauses so that they can prove themselves against better competition and still be available at a good price if they succeed.

It's just a weird complaint. What did Chelsea's academy system ever win them?

I realized that after I posted, but the point remains. They buy a lot of youth players, only to let them fester on the bench, or loan them out.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.

This seems like a rather unique development system. I can't think of anyone else that does this to the same extent.

Its pretty infuriating if you ask me. Dont know why the buy all these kids and never give them a chance at first team football. Rather than buying Cavani or Rooney, why not finally give Lukaku a chance? Same with De Bruyne. A few years ago, Gael Kakuta was the best youth prospect at Chelsea, but we loaned him out every year while we bought 8-10 attacking mid's - everyone from superstars such as Hazard and Mata to head scratchers such as Marko Marin and Benayoun. He was never even given a fair chance.

I prefer buyng young talent instead of expensive established stars. But only if the team gives them a chance to prove themselves, which for whatever reason the team rarely does.

It sounds like Lukaku is being given a chance this year. Sturridge started quite a bit under AVB. One reason why this happens is because Chelsea changes managers often, and manager's don't want to pay the price for someone else's guy (Mourinho strikes me as actually better about this than most).

But the fact of the matter is that Chelsea isn't going to be a team that allows it's manager to develop young players. No team that is seriously expected to seriously challenge for trophies is. The stakes are too high. The closest team toward the top of the Prem is Arsenal, and we all agree that Arsenal isn't a serious title contender. In part because they've often relied on a Denilson or a Djourou who just wasn't good enough.

 

[Bonzai]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.

This seems like a rather unique development system. I can't think of anyone else that does this to the same extent.

Its pretty infuriating if you ask me. Dont know why the buy all these kids and never give them a chance at first team football. Rather than buying Cavani or Rooney, why not finally give Lukaku a chance? Same with De Bruyne. A few years ago, Gael Kakuta was the best youth prospect at Chelsea, but we loaned him out every year while we bought 8-10 attacking mid's - everyone from superstars such as Hazard and Mata to head scratchers such as Marko Marin and Benayoun. He was never even given a fair chance.

I prefer buyng young talent instead of expensive established stars. But only if the team gives them a chance to prove themselves, which for whatever reason the team rarely does.

It sounds like Lukaku is being given a chance this year. Sturridge started quite a bit under AVB. One reason why this happens is because Chelsea changes managers often, and manager's don't want to pay the price for someone else's guy (Mourinho strikes me as actually better about this than most).

But the fact of the matter is that Chelsea isn't going to be a team that allows it's manager to develop young players. No team that is seriously expected to seriously challenge for trophies is. The stakes are too high. The closest team toward the top of the Prem is Arsenal, and we all agree that Arsenal isn't a serious title contender. In part because they've often relied on a Denilson or a Djourou who just wasn't good enough.

I'd consider Manchester United a serious title contender.

 

[Sebowski]

Jozy to Sunderland seems to be close....

That would be sweet.

That would be awful. Dont want him to leave Holland until after the World Cup.

I don't mind if he moves, just please not to Sunderland. AZ's offensive mindset has been perfect for Jozy's growth. Sunderland would suffocate that.

 

[The Gator]

I'd consider Manchester United a serious title contender.

Who has been there through their academy that is on this team? Evans and Cleverly?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.

This seems like a rather unique development system. I can't think of anyone else that does this to the same extent.

Its pretty infuriating if you ask me. Dont know why the buy all these kids and never give them a chance at first team football. Rather than buying Cavani or Rooney, why not finally give Lukaku a chance? Same with De Bruyne. A few years ago, Gael Kakuta was the best youth prospect at Chelsea, but we loaned him out every year while we bought 8-10 attacking mid's - everyone from superstars such as Hazard and Mata to head scratchers such as Marko Marin and Benayoun. He was never even given a fair chance.

I prefer buyng young talent instead of expensive established stars. But only if the team gives them a chance to prove themselves, which for whatever reason the team rarely does.

It sounds like Lukaku is being given a chance this year. Sturridge started quite a bit under AVB. One reason why this happens is because Chelsea changes managers often, and manager's don't want to pay the price for someone else's guy (Mourinho strikes me as actually better about this than most).

But the fact of the matter is that Chelsea isn't going to be a team that allows it's manager to develop young players. No team that is seriously expected to seriously challenge for trophies is. The stakes are too high. The closest team toward the top of the Prem is Arsenal, and we all agree that Arsenal isn't a serious title contender. In part because they've often relied on a Denilson or a Djourou who just wasn't good enough.

I'd consider Manchester United a serious title contender.

They deserve credit for winning the title despite getting largely disappointing performances from Welbeck and Cleverly. Particularly for Rafael panning out (they were very patient with his mistakes the two previous years).

They certainly rely more on their younger players than others. I suspect that will change with Moyes as his leash will not be as long SAF's. But if you look at Man U's weaknesses, they're almost all in the areas they trusted to youth. Backup CB (Phil Jones might be a fine player, but I suspect that will be as a holding mid). CM. I guess the one exception is the wings, where their established players let them down.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I'd consider Manchester United a serious title contender.

Who has been there through their academy that is on this team? Evans and Cleverly?

Welbeck, Giggs...

 

[The Gator]

I'd consider Manchester United a serious title contender.

Who has been there through their academy that is on this team? Evans and Cleverly?

Welbeck, Giggs...

Forgot aboot welbeck, giggs = done

 

[CletiusMaximus]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.

This seems like a rather unique development system. I can't think of anyone else that does this to the same extent.

Its pretty infuriating if you ask me. Dont know why the buy all these kids and never give them a chance at first team football. Rather than buying Cavani or Rooney, why not finally give Lukaku a chance? Same with De Bruyne. A few years ago, Gael Kakuta was the best youth prospect at Chelsea, but we loaned him out every year while we bought 8-10 attacking mid's - everyone from superstars such as Hazard and Mata to head scratchers such as Marko Marin and Benayoun. He was never even given a fair chance.

I prefer buyng young talent instead of expensive established stars. But only if the team gives them a chance to prove themselves, which for whatever reason the team rarely does.

I'm not sure what happened with Kakuta, but obviously many of the young prodigys simply don't pan out. He's had some decent loan opportunities but has disappointed at Bolton, Vitesse and I think one other loan somewhere in France. I don't think it would be any better to let him rot our our bench or play with the youth teams. Lukaku had a bad season on the bench 2 years ago but had a great loan last year and it looks like he will get a chance with the team this season, depending on what happens in the transfer market the next month or two. Chalobah (18) had a great season on loan, making over 30 apps for Watford. I would hope to see him in a reserve / spot-start role for Chelsea within a couple years. Thomas Kallas has had about 60 appearances for Vitesse the past two seasons. I'm excited about Ake, Feruz and Loftus-Cheek, among others who have come through the academy, but there's no guarantees when you sign a pre-teen obviously, and I think you have to expect most of these kids to flame out or get sold.

Regarding Mourinho, some say he is reluctant to bring up young players, but I think he has a decent history of working in young guys, despite being at top clubs under immense pressure to win. He brought in Varane at 18 at Madrid to eventually replace Pepe, and made several similar moves during his years at Chelsea.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Di Canio is completely reorganizing Sunderland. I don't think it's fair to assume that they'll just punt the ball up the field. He's signed three experienced continental players on free transfers. I don't know if they plan to keep to Sessegnon, but he's certainly a creative player. And Fletcher is the type of forward who would complement, rather than compete with Jozy.

I don't think it's an ideal destination, but I'm not sure it's any worse than AZ without Maher (considering the creative players they lost last year as well). I'd have my worries. It might be easy to get in PDC's doghouse, but it would also be a good test of Jozy's professionalism. And I think he'd get minutes. Which is all I really care about.

 

[Sebowski]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Neither Sturridge or Lukaku were products of the Chelsea academy.

And I don't think that this "ruins" the youth system. That's just a reality of top European clubs. Youth team players rarely come up and get first team minutes for Real Madrid or for Bayern anymore. It's becoming increasingly rare at Barcelona, who are about to lose the guy we've all considered their star of the future for the past 4 years now. The game has changed and smart teams will now sell off their best academy players with generous buy-back clauses so that they can prove themselves against better competition and still be available at a good price if they succeed.

It's just a weird complaint. What did Chelsea's academy system ever win them?

There was a game this past year where all 11 guys on the field were from La Masia.

I'm betting they do whatever they can to get Thiago to stay. Tello is going to get his share of starts and I see him as the 3rd guy in that front crazy frontline. Bartra will also get his minutes.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Neither Sturridge or Lukaku were products of the Chelsea academy.

And I don't think that this "ruins" the youth system. That's just a reality of top European clubs. Youth team players rarely come up and get first team minutes for Real Madrid or for Bayern anymore. It's becoming increasingly rare at Barcelona, who are about to lose the guy we've all considered their star of the future for the past 4 years now. The game has changed and smart teams will now sell off their best academy players with generous buy-back clauses so that they can prove themselves against better competition and still be available at a good price if they succeed.

It's just a weird complaint. What did Chelsea's academy system ever win them?

There was a game this past year where all 11 guys on the field were from La Masia.

I'm betting they do whatever they can to get Thiago to stay. Tello is going to get his share of starts and I see him as the 3rd guy in that front crazy frontline. Bartra will also get his minutes.

Barca just paid 57 million for Neymar. They've signed Sanchez, Pedro, Villa, Cesc (for all relevant purposes as they certainly paid a big transfer fee), Song, Mascherano, Alba, Dani Alves. They're going to find their next keeper from outside of the system. If they bring in Luiz or Thiago Silva or any number of the other CB targets they've been linked to, it will block Bartra's development as well.

It's absolutely becoming more rare at Barca.

EDIT: Which isn't a slag on Barca. The last great can't miss La Masia star was Bojan, who absolutely lit it up for Barca B. He actually had a great first year in La Liga before losing his spot to to Pedro and falling off the radar. They couldn't afford to develop him in the first team. I just think those days are over. If you're not the finished article, I don't see how you can expect to start for a top team.

 

[Sebowski]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Neither Sturridge or Lukaku were products of the Chelsea academy.

And I don't think that this "ruins" the youth system. That's just a reality of top European clubs. Youth team players rarely come up and get first team minutes for Real Madrid or for Bayern anymore. It's becoming increasingly rare at Barcelona, who are about to lose the guy we've all considered their star of the future for the past 4 years now. The game has changed and smart teams will now sell off their best academy players with generous buy-back clauses so that they can prove themselves against better competition and still be available at a good price if they succeed.

It's just a weird complaint. What did Chelsea's academy system ever win them?

There was a game this past year where all 11 guys on the field were from La Masia.

I'm betting they do whatever they can to get Thiago to stay. Tello is going to get his share of starts and I see him as the 3rd guy in that front crazy frontline. Bartra will also get his minutes.

Barca just paid 57 million for Neymar. They've signed Sanchez, Pedro, Villa, Cesc (for all relevant purposes as they certainly paid a big transfer fee), Song, Mascherano, Alba, Dani Alves. They're going to find their next keeper from outside of the system. If they bring in Luiz or Thiago Silva or any number of the other CB targets they've been linked to, it will block Bartra's development as well.

It's absolutely becoming more rare at Barca.

EDIT: Which isn't a slag on Barca. The last great can't miss La Masia star was Bojan, who absolutely lit it up for Barca B. He actually had a great first year in La Liga before losing his spot to to Pedro and falling off the radar. They couldn't afford to develop him in the first team. I just think those days are over. If you're not the finished article, I don't see how you can expect to start for a top team.

Pedro, Cesc, and Alba have all been through the Barca youth system. That is "homegrown talent" in my eyes. Even if they had to spend to bring them back. Part of what what makes that youth program great is the loyalty it engrains. After they leave some of them make it their goal to go it back.

 

[The Gator]

Is Athletic Bilbao the most "homegrown team"?

 

[Native]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.

This seems like a rather unique development system. I can't think of anyone else that does this to the same extent.

Its pretty infuriating if you ask me. Dont know why the buy all these kids and never give them a chance at first team football. Rather than buying Cavani or Rooney, why not finally give Lukaku a chance? Same with De Bruyne. A few years ago, Gael Kakuta was the best youth prospect at Chelsea, but we loaned him out every year while we bought 8-10 attacking mid's - everyone from superstars such as Hazard and Mata to head scratchers such as Marko Marin and Benayoun. He was never even given a fair chance.

I prefer buyng young talent instead of expensive established stars. But only if the team gives them a chance to prove themselves, which for whatever reason the team rarely does.

I'm not sure what happened with Kakuta, but obviously many of the young prodigys simply don't pan out. He's had some decent loan opportunities but has disappointed at Bolton, Vitesse and I think one other loan somewhere in France. I don't think it would be any better to let him rot our our bench or play with the youth teams. Lukaku had a bad season on the bench 2 years ago but had a great loan last year and it looks like he will get a chance with the team this season, depending on what happens in the transfer market the next month or two. Chalobah (18) had a great season on loan, making over 30 apps for Watford. I would hope to see him in a reserve / spot-start role for Chelsea within a couple years. Thomas Kallas has had about 60 appearances for Vitesse the past two seasons. I'm excited about Ake, Feruz and Loftus-Cheek, among others who have come through the academy, but there's no guarantees when you sign a pre-teen obviously, and I think you have to expect most of these kids to flame out or get sold.

Regarding Mourinho, some say he is reluctant to bring up young players, but I think he has a decent history of working in young guys, despite being at top clubs under immense pressure to win. He brought in Varane at 18 at Madrid to eventually replace Pepe, and made several similar moves during his years at Chelsea.

Point with Kakuta is that he never was given the opportunity to shine at Chelsea. In 2012, he had 4 goals in 12 matches for a Ligue 1 bottom feeder (Dijon). Thats a very laudable record for any winger, much less a winger on a bottom club with subpar talent. And his reward was being loaned out again the next season - his fourth team in four years. Very few players will continue to improve under such circumstances. At some point youve just got to bite the bullet and give young players a chance.

As for Lukaku and De Bruyne, it remains to be seen how their stories play out. Mourinho just bought Schurlle for 18M pounds, and he has a strinkingly similar game to De Bruryne. Lukaku looks like hes going to get a chance, but with Cavani (or someone else) joining the squad I can see his chances become more limited quickly if he doesnt impress early on.

I agree with you that I think our best bet for Chelsea's youth system to pay off is on the back line. Chalobah and Ake have loads of potential and are easier to integrete into the first team than attacking mid's/forwards who demand the ball much more freqeuntly.

 

[Native]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Neither Sturridge or Lukaku were products of the Chelsea academy.

And I don't think that this "ruins" the youth system. That's just a reality of top European clubs. Youth team players rarely come up and get first team minutes for Real Madrid or for Bayern anymore. It's becoming increasingly rare at Barcelona, who are about to lose the guy we've all considered their star of the future for the past 4 years now. The game has changed and smart teams will now sell off their best academy players with generous buy-back clauses so that they can prove themselves against better competition and still be available at a good price if they succeed.

It's just a weird complaint. What did Chelsea's academy system ever win them?

There was a game this past year where all 11 guys on the field were from La Masia.

I'm betting they do whatever they can to get Thiago to stay. Tello is going to get his share of starts and I see him as the 3rd guy in that front crazy frontline. Bartra will also get his minutes.

Barca just paid 57 million for Neymar. They've signed Sanchez, Pedro, Villa, Cesc (for all relevant purposes as they certainly paid a big transfer fee), Song, Mascherano, Alba, Dani Alves. They're going to find their next keeper from outside of the system. If they bring in Luiz or Thiago Silva or any number of the other CB targets they've been linked to, it will block Bartra's development as well.

It's absolutely becoming more rare at Barca.

EDIT: Which isn't a slag on Barca. The last great can't miss La Masia star was Bojan, who absolutely lit it up for Barca B. He actually had a great first year in La Liga before losing his spot to to Pedro and falling off the radar. They couldn't afford to develop him in the first team. I just think those days are over. If you're not the finished article, I don't see how you can expect to start for a top team.

Pedro, Cesc, and Alba have all been through the Barca youth system. That is "homegrown talent" in my eyes. Even if they had to spend to bring them back. Part of what what makes that youth program great is the loyalty it engrains. After they leave some of them make it their goal to go it back.

Part of what I hate about Barca is how they have their cake and eat it too. Not only do they pry the best players away from opposing teams for less than market value (Neymar and Macherano come to mind in recent years), they also have a great youth system. Agree with Sebowski here.

Am I bitter much? Jealous? Yes and yes. <_<

 

[The Z Machine]

Is Athletic Bilbao the most "homegrown team"?

Maybe. But they steal a lot of Basque players that come through other systems. Plus, they really aren't very good (right now anyway).