***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (2 Viewers)

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I would say that the big miss of Man U's youth system was Paul Pogba. Everyone knew that he was one of the most highly regarded young CMs in the world. United were far from stacked at the position. But he couldn't get a game and left for Juventus on a free, where he's been able to crack a CM featuring Pirlo and Arturo Vidal, (who are both miles better than anyone United has).

But even SAF, who has more rope than anyone, was reluctant to give Pogba meaningful games in his teens. Welbeck has largely been a disappointment for United. His pace is useful, but his finishing isn't developed and United isn't going to let a developing striker lead their lines. I think the traditional examples of Giggs, the Nevilles, Beckham, and Nicky Butt just prove the point. This isn't the 90s. Heck, I think Giggs was up with the senior team before the Bosman decision. It says something that I can probably name more successful United academy graduates from 94-97 than I can from the entire 21st century. I just think the game has changed. I think most team's developmental players are more likely to be scouted from international competitions now. If you can get a Ryan Bertrand out of the academy every few years, all the better.

 

[T Bell]

I would say that the big miss of Man U's youth system was Paul Pogba. Everyone knew that he was one of the most highly regarded young CMs in the world. United were far from stacked at the position. But he couldn't get a game and left for Juventus on a free, where he's been able to crack a CM featuring Pirlo and Arturo Vidal, (who are both miles better than anyone United has).

But even SAF, who has more rope than anyone, was reluctant to give Pogba meaningful games in his teens. Welbeck has largely been a disappointment for United. His pace is useful, but his finishing isn't developed and United isn't going to let a developing striker lead their lines. I think the traditional examples of Giggs, the Nevilles, Beckham, and Nicky Butt just prove the point. This isn't the 90s. Heck, I think Giggs was up with the senior team before the Bosman decision. It says something that I can probably name more successful United academy graduates from 94-97 than I can from the entire 21st century. I just think the game has changed. I think most team's developmental players are more likely to be scouted from international competitions now. If you can get a Ryan Bertrand out of the academy every few years, all the better.

The "sweet spot" for clubs (meaning, the best combination of acquiring price and value realized) is probably signing players in the 16-18 year old range. By that age you can typically see more reliable indications of elite talent and you can essentially finish the polishing job. That's where you get guys like Rooney, Lukaku, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Cesc, etc. Wait until they're older and they're not really "youth" players anymore and they'll be more expensive, and any younger and you are more likely to be grabbing at fools gold.

But yeah, the market is more competitive now. 15 years ago Arsene Wenger was the undisputed authority in England on French and other continental players. Now everyone's got a very good idea of who is good there. It's much more difficult.

 

[The Z Machine]

I would say that the big miss of Man U's youth system was Paul Pogba. Everyone knew that he was one of the most highly regarded young CMs in the world. United were far from stacked at the position. But he couldn't get a game and left for Juventus on a free, where he's been able to crack a CM featuring Pirlo and Arturo Vidal, (who are both miles better than anyone United has).

But even SAF, who has more rope than anyone, was reluctant to give Pogba meaningful games in his teens. Welbeck has largely been a disappointment for United. His pace is useful, but his finishing isn't developed and United isn't going to let a developing striker lead their lines. I think the traditional examples of Giggs, the Nevilles, Beckham, and Nicky Butt just prove the point. This isn't the 90s. Heck, I think Giggs was up with the senior team before the Bosman decision. It says something that I can probably name more successful United academy graduates from 94-97 than I can from the entire 21st century. I just think the game has changed. I think most team's developmental players are more likely to be scouted from international competitions now. If you can get a Ryan Bertrand out of the academy every few years, all the better.

The "sweet spot" for clubs (meaning, the best combination of acquiring price and value realized) is probably signing players in the 16-18 year old range. By that age you can typically see more reliable indications of elite talent and you can essentially finish the polishing job. That's where you get guys like Rooney, Lukaku, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Cesc, etc. Wait until they're older and they're not really "youth" players anymore and they'll be more expensive, and any younger and you are more likely to be grabbing at fools gold.

But yeah, the market is more competitive now. 15 years ago Arsene Wenger was the undisputed authority in England on French and other continental players. Now everyone's got a very good idea of who is good there. It's much more difficult.

I blame Football Manager.

Damn you Sports Interactive!

 

[Bonzai]

I would say that the big miss of Man U's youth system was Paul Pogba. Everyone knew that he was one of the most highly regarded young CMs in the world. United were far from stacked at the position. But he couldn't get a game and left for Juventus on a free, where he's been able to crack a CM featuring Pirlo and Arturo Vidal, (who are both miles better than anyone United has).

But even SAF, who has more rope than anyone, was reluctant to give Pogba meaningful games in his teens. Welbeck has largely been a disappointment for United. His pace is useful, but his finishing isn't developed and United isn't going to let a developing striker lead their lines. I think the traditional examples of Giggs, the Nevilles, Beckham, and Nicky Butt just prove the point. This isn't the 90s. Heck, I think Giggs was up with the senior team before the Bosman decision. It says something that I can probably name more successful United academy graduates from 94-97 than I can from the entire 21st century. I just think the game has changed. I think most team's developmental players are more likely to be scouted from international competitions now. If you can get a Ryan Bertrand out of the academy every few years, all the better.

I don't think United will give up on a philosophy geared toward youth. From what I understand, the goal is that players that come up through the youth system will internalize the team identity and help promote team unity, thus offsetting any drop in talent compared to outside big money players. I've read that Pogba was bucking that process and that is what stalled his integration into the team. I don't think the lack of minutes by academy players in the current squad is a reflection of the times, but that the current crop just isn't that good. There is bound to be disappointments. If that keeps up, then yeah, I guess United will have to adapt. But I don't see them moving on just yet. I'm not even sure they could keep up with the likes of City or Chelsea if the youth system lets them down. Who knows though..

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.This seems like a rather unique development system. I can't think of anyone else that does this to the same extent.

Its pretty infuriating if you ask me. Dont know why the buy all these kids and never give them a chance at first team football. Rather than buying Cavani or Rooney, why not finally give Lukaku a chance? Same with De Bruyne. A few years ago, Gael Kakuta was the best youth prospect at Chelsea, but we loaned him out every year while we bought 8-10 attacking mid's - everyone from superstars such as Hazard and Mata to head scratchers such as Marko Marin and Benayoun. He was never even given a fair chance.

I prefer buyng young talent instead of expensive established stars. But only if the team gives them a chance to prove themselves, which for whatever reason the team rarely does.

It sounds like Lukaku is being given a chance this year. Sturridge started quite a bit under AVB. One reason why this happens is because Chelsea changes managers often, and manager's don't want to pay the price for someone else's guy (Mourinho strikes me as actually better about this than most).

But the fact of the matter is that Chelsea isn't going to be a team that allows it's manager to develop young players. No team that is seriously expected to seriously challenge for trophies is. The stakes are too high. The closest team toward the top of the Prem is Arsenal, and we all agree that Arsenal isn't a serious title contender. In part because they've often relied on a Denilson or a Djourou who just wasn't good enough.

I'd consider Manchester United a serious title contender.

And don't forget that Arsenal has spent 10 years paying on its own for a brand new stadium. They're going to start being more active in the transfer market now.

Tottenham have signed Paulinho, Arsenal have signed a u20 league 2 French player...

Worth it if only for the headline "Wake Me Up Yaya Sonogo.

 

[T Bell]

There was actually a lot of talk about this the yesterday on the radio. One of the taking heads was saying he's ruined the youth system. This was the gist- "Sure the kids have won things, but where do they go when they're ready for the first team? Not the Chelsea first team because they buy their starters."

This is a good point. Sturridge was woefully under-utilized for years, and the same thing is happening to Lukaku.

Do any other teams do this to the same extent? Chelsea has an entire squad of foreign youth talent on perma-loan. Its a talented group, but given how many of their players are bought outright most of them will be left out in the cold as well. Their actual youth squad is completely irrelevant.This seems like a rather unique development system. I can't think of anyone else that does this to the same extent.

Its pretty infuriating if you ask me. Dont know why the buy all these kids and never give them a chance at first team football. Rather than buying Cavani or Rooney, why not finally give Lukaku a chance? Same with De Bruyne. A few years ago, Gael Kakuta was the best youth prospect at Chelsea, but we loaned him out every year while we bought 8-10 attacking mid's - everyone from superstars such as Hazard and Mata to head scratchers such as Marko Marin and Benayoun. He was never even given a fair chance.

I prefer buyng young talent instead of expensive established stars. But only if the team gives them a chance to prove themselves, which for whatever reason the team rarely does.

It sounds like Lukaku is being given a chance this year. Sturridge started quite a bit under AVB. One reason why this happens is because Chelsea changes managers often, and manager's don't want to pay the price for someone else's guy (Mourinho strikes me as actually better about this than most).

But the fact of the matter is that Chelsea isn't going to be a team that allows it's manager to develop young players. No team that is seriously expected to seriously challenge for trophies is. The stakes are too high. The closest team toward the top of the Prem is Arsenal, and we all agree that Arsenal isn't a serious title contender. In part because they've often relied on a Denilson or a Djourou who just wasn't good enough.

I'd consider Manchester United a serious title contender.

And don't forget that Arsenal has spent 10 years paying on its own for a brand new stadium. They're going to start being more active in the transfer market now.

Tottenham have signed Paulinho, Arsenal have signed a u20 league 2 French player...

Worth it if only for the headline "Wake Me Up Yaya Sonogo.

"...hope he's better than that C U Next Tuesday from Togo!" /Arsenal fans

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

The Beas is YOUR Gold Cup captain. Funny tweet from Grant Wahl:

“Half-suspecting Klinsmann will hold public training where fans will be encouraged to kick balls at Donovan’s rear end.”

 

[Christo]

Paulinho Upset Over Accidental Tottenham Transfer

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

William Hill has stopped taking bets on Suarez to Arsenal after a series of "massive" bets came in on a move to the Gunners.

 

[The Z Machine]

Suarez to ####? Lol. Have to think that would infuriate the gooner fan base.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

van Ginkel to Chelsea done. Higuain to Arsenal almost there, it looks like.

 

[T Bell]

Suarez to ####? Lol. Have to think that would infuriate the gooner fan base.

He's a great player, and a really contemptible human being.

I really don't want to have to root for him.

 

[The Gator]

No way he moves to Arsenal. Part of the "he wants out" is due to the English press.

 

[Native]

No way he moves to Arsenal. Part of the "he wants out" is due to the English press.

Cant see Liverpool selling him to Arsenal either. Theyre desparate for European Football and are competing directly with Arsenal for those places. Makes zero sense considering the number of other teams who also want the player.

 

[T Bell]

No way he moves to Arsenal. Part of the "he wants out" is due to the English press.

Cant see Liverpool selling him to Arsenal either. Theyre desparate for European Football and are competing directly with Arsenal for those places. Makes zero sense considering the number of other teams who also want the player.

Oh I agree, it's not happening.

Also Rodgers doesn't have all the time in the world and Suarez is one of his best players and his only reliable goal scorer.

 

[Sebowski]

van Ginkel to Chelsea done. Higuain to Arsenal almost there, it looks like.

I just thinking Chelsea needed another midfielder.

 

[T Bell]

van Ginkel to Chelsea done. Higuain to Arsenal almost there, it looks like.

I just thinking Chelsea needed another midfielder.

I really don't understand the plan here. I guess the rumors about Mata's departure are true?

 

[The Z Machine]

Mata can move back to Spain and play for my Atleti if he wants...

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

van Ginkel to Chelsea done. Higuain to Arsenal almost there, it looks like.

I just thinking Chelsea needed another midfielder.

I really don't understand the plan here. I guess the rumors about Mata's departure are true?

Is Van Ginkel an attacking mid? Chelsea isn't as deep in the CM/DM roles. Mikel looks to be on his way out. Ramires is a squad rotation guy. Lamps probably can't play back to back. David Luiz is still probably needed at CB. In any case, van Ginkel is 20 and they paid an amount where it isn't prohibitively expensive to lock him up and loan him out for a year or two.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Yeah, a quick check of some sources suggests Van Ginkel is meant to play a Lampard type role. Not to compete with Mata. I suppose Essien might end up first choice to play the Mikel role and Van Ginkel, Ramires, and Lamps will compete for starts as the box to box CM.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Yeah, a quick check of some sources suggests Van Ginkel is meant to play a Lampard type role. Not to compete with Mata. I suppose Essien might end up first choice to play the Mikel role and Van Ginkel, Ramires, and Lamps will compete for starts as the box to box CM.

I don't know the plans for Van Ginkel but I'm sure this has nothing to do with Mata. The Mata rumors strike me as among the silliest from this silly season. No one really knows how Mourinho is going to play, but its worth remembering that Chelsea played 69 competitive games last season and over 60 the year before. I recall an extremely important late season league game lost to Southhampton in which Marko Marin and Victor Moses started in MF and Yossi Benayoun subbed for Oscar with Chelsea behind by a goal late. So some depth in midfield is welcomed, although again I'm not sure what the plans for this kid are. He could be loaned back to Vitesse. If anything, this could be bad news for guys like Ake, Challobah, McEachran.

 

[Mjolnirs]

Fans greet Anatoliy Tymoshchuk on his retrun to Zenit St. Petersburg

 

[The Gator]

http://i.minus.com/idlZpnaFUWCFv.gif

 

[T Bell]

Fans greet Anatoliy Tymoshchuk on his retrun to Zenit St. Petersburg

Man, Russians can't spell for ####.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

http://i.minus.com/idlZpnaFUWCFv.gif

Yes!

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Fans greet Anatoliy Tymoshchuk on his retrun to Zenit St. Petersburg

pretty awesome that he's got Putin holding the umbrella for him

 

[The Gator]

Higuain might stay at Real now?

Arsenal> wait...

Wasn't Arsenal in the mix to get Mata, but then haggled over a few million and ended up losing out on him?

 

[T Bell]

Higuain might stay at Real now?

Arsenal> wait...

Wasn't Arsenal in the mix to get Mata, but then haggled over a few million and ended up losing out on him?

Supposedly Arsenal missed a deadline to activate a release clause on Mata.

I don't know how reliable this ESPN report is but it's seemingly out of the blue in light of how consistently the reports have been about Higuain to Arsenal for ~22-23M. We'll see.

 

[Sebowski]

Higuain might stay at Real now?

Arsenal> wait...

Wasn't Arsenal in the mix to get Mata, but then haggled over a few million and ended up losing out on him?

This is why I am waiting until the he puts the jersey on to be excited about it.

 

[B-Deep]

Does this thread include bubble soccer discussion?

It can if you want it to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIl45f6i1PU

best soccer ever

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Higuain might stay at Real now?

Arsenal> wait...

Wasn't Arsenal in the mix to get Mata, but then haggled over a few million and ended up losing out on him?

There isn't a team out there that is going to give real 30 million. So if they value him at that, they should keep him. I doubt this is more than a last ditch attempt to extract a higher offer, but if not, I'm sure there are some good strikers to be had in the 20-23 million range. I'd be shocked if Dortmund paid more than that for Aubemeyang.

 

[Sebowski]

11hrs until kickoff in San Diego and 5hrs until tailgate.

I am excited about this game and the Gold Cup. I love the new format (winner of this one plays winner of the next one to go to Con Fed cup instead of just the winner of the most recent one going). Also, with it just a year out this is the last time most of these guys will have Klinsmann full attention.

Here are the things I will be looking for with this roster:

Will Donovan show Klinsmann he needs to find a way to get him on the feild?

Donovan's career has been just about everywhere now. Future star, disappointment, GOAT(arguably), wash-out, and now veteran on a comeback. It has been pretty obvious he didn't get off on the right foot with Klinsmann, but I believe Klinsmann is rooting for him as much as anyone. He has his chance now. I think he seizes it.

Will Holden give us hope?

We all know Holden's story. This tournament might be the prefect stage for him to show that he is on his way to the level he was playing at before all his injuries and maybe even a glimpse of him being able to exceed that level.

Do we have any depth on the backline at all?

I'm wary of putting everything on Omar next year. He has the tools, but I've seen too many mistakes to have that much confdence in him. Is Gooch still an option? Are the MLS guys I've never seen play before an option? Is Castillo Beasely's heir apparent? How many times will this thread take a shot at Orozco?

Will there be a coming out party?

Jack Mac, Joe Coronoa, Terrance Boyd, and Mix Diskerud have all shown flashes of being dynamic play makers at the club level. Will any of them pounce on their chance if they get it? Corona is a San Diego native and plays right down the street with the Tijuana Xolos, so the whole crowd will have some extra attention on him. I really wish I could have written Josh Gatt here, but yet another injury will keep "White Lightning" (as my friend his dubbed him) from making his mark.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Does this thread include bubble soccer discussion?

It can if you want it to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIl45f6i1PU

best soccer ever

Still less violent than a rainy Tuesday in Stoke.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I too am looking forward to the Gold Cup. Perhaps more than I should.

I think Landon's job is to show that he should be the top sub along the three attacking mid slots. In my mind, Zusi and Johnson have earned the flank spots and Dempsey is the no-brainer to play in the hole when everyone is healthy and not suspended. But Donovan is the one guy who can play in any of those spots. With Donovan's age, I also think allowing him to have infrequent starts and more frequent 30 minute sub appearances is a good way to maximize his impact.

I'm really not to concerned with Holden. I like the A team's CM options. I'm not looking for Holden to be all the way back yet. It would be a nice story, but it's not really something I think the US needs.

The player I'd most like to see is Jack Mac. He'd also only be a spot starter at best, but I've been impressed with off the ball movement every time I've watched him.

I'm not sure what there is to see in the back if they're use slots on Gooch and Goodson. I think we know that those guys can be solid against less than top CONCACAF competition.

 

[Mjolnirs]

With the US, Mexico and Canada all automatically qualifying for the Gold Cup tournament, it's easy to not realize the qualifying the other teams went through.

Martinique, Trinidad & Tobago and Haiti all played 11 matches dating back to September to get to this point.

Cuba played 7 matches and the Central American teams had from 3 to 4.

 

[Sebowski]

I too am looking forward to the Gold Cup. Perhaps more than I should.

I think Landon's job is to show that he should be the top sub along the three attacking mid slots. In my mind, Zusi and Johnson have earned the flank spots and Dempsey is the no-brainer to play in the hole when everyone is healthy and not suspended. But Donovan is the one guy who can play in any of those spots. With Donovan's age, I also think allowing him to have infrequent starts and more frequent 30 minute sub appearances is a good way to maximize his impact.

I'm really not to concerned with Holden. I like the A team's CM options. I'm not looking for Holden to be all the way back yet. It would be a nice story, but it's not really something I think the US needs.

The player I'd most like to see is Jack Mac. He'd also only be a spot starter at best, but I've been impressed with off the ball movement every time I've watched him.

I'm not sure what there is to see in the back if they're use slots on Gooch and Goodson. I think we know that those guys can be solid against less than top CONCACAF competition.

I would not be happy with Eddie Johnson as the wing starter. If it isn't going to be Donovan I'd rather see someone else from this group take it, or Fabian Johnson (I think he can play either side).

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I too am looking forward to the Gold Cup. Perhaps more than I should.

I think Landon's job is to show that he should be the top sub along the three attacking mid slots. In my mind, Zusi and Johnson have earned the flank spots and Dempsey is the no-brainer to play in the hole when everyone is healthy and not suspended. But Donovan is the one guy who can play in any of those spots. With Donovan's age, I also think allowing him to have infrequent starts and more frequent 30 minute sub appearances is a good way to maximize his impact.

I'm really not to concerned with Holden. I like the A team's CM options. I'm not looking for Holden to be all the way back yet. It would be a nice story, but it's not really something I think the US needs.

The player I'd most like to see is Jack Mac. He'd also only be a spot starter at best, but I've been impressed with off the ball movement every time I've watched him.

I'm not sure what there is to see in the back if they're use slots on Gooch and Goodson. I think we know that those guys can be solid against less than top CONCACAF competition.

I would not be happy with Eddie Johnson as the wing starter. If it isn't going to be Donovan I'd rather see someone else from this group take it, or Fabian Johnson (I think he can play either side).

I meant Fab Johnson.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Maybe a dumb Q, but has/can Zusi play right back?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

According to ESPNFC and Greg Seltzer at MLS.com and No Short Corners (who's been in touch with Earnie Stewart throughout the process), Jozy has a medical with Sunderland on Monday. Transfer fee and personal terms are agreed.

I will continue to be contrarian and predict it's a good fit.

EDIT: Confirmed by Jozy's publicist on Jozy's official website.

 

[The Gator]

According to ESPNFC and Greg Seltzer at MLS.com and No Short Corners (who's been in touch with Earnie Stewart throughout the process), Jozy has a medical with Sunderland on Monday. Transfer fee and personal terms are agreed.

I will continue to be contrarian and predict it's a good fit.

I like the move, too.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

anyone got a link to tonights game for a mac?

 

[The Gator]

anyone got a link to tonights game for a mac?

I use these all the time on my mac

http://firstrowus.eu/watch/194207/1/watch-usa-vs-guatemala.html

 

[Christo]

USA! USA! USA!

 

[The Gator]

The Gator, Christo

How's that Busch treating you?

 

[Steve Tasker]

Has Beasley ever captained the USMNT before?

 

[Christo]

The Gator, Christo

How's that Busch treating you?

NWIH am I making it to the end of this game.

 

[bentley]

The Gator, Christo

How's that Busch treating you?

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8853/3umv.jpg

 

[Christo]

The Gator, Christo

How's that Busch treating you?

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8853/3umv.jpg

 

[The Gator]

The Gator, Christo

How's that Busch treating you?

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8853/3umv.jpg

 

[Christo]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/cf3edd411d418cdfa3e73b36ff71cd47/tumblr_mphwi2fGjr1s8oxxgo1_500.jpg