bentley
Footballguy
No doubt. For example, I can't believe that Liverpool is sitting in 5th with as crappy as they've been in all competitions this year.
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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter jpeace121
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Watching FS+ Multi-Match CL coverage is exactly like Redzone. Annoying and frustrating insofar as you can't get into the rhythm of any one game, but a good way to watch all 8 games live assuming you don't have a particular strong interest in a particular game.
Sebowski
Footballguy
Except there is no rhythm to watching an NFL game, so Redzone Rulz when your favorite team isn't playing.
Meh - nothing to see here. Top-4 in the world right now are (in no particular order): Chelsea, Bayern, Barca and RM. City is in the next group, Arsenal would be there when healthy, Liverpool down a notch from them.
Right now, I'd say only Germany and England have a chance to advance 4 teams in the CL. Chelsea and Arsenal are all but through, and I think City and even Liverpool will get the points needed to advance.
Right now, I'd say only Germany and England have a chance to advance 4 teams in the CL. Chelsea and Arsenal are all but through, and I think City and even Liverpool will get the points needed to advance.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
And there's just not enough readily available coverage of La Liga in America. I'd love to watch it, but I'm not going to seek it out. I watch more MLS than I do La Liga....because it's readily available on my TV. I think people sometimes view the lack of coverage in the US as some sort of indictment on the quality of play, and I don't think that's true.
I get why those of you who've lived in Spain (Z, Slapdash) have a connection to it, but having never been there, never been to a game, and having no team....I just stick with the one that shows all of its games live in English on my TV in (mostly) HD.
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
Understood Tasker. I'd probably be in the same boat if I didn't have that connection. But really, la liga needs to wake the eff up, since they won't continue to be able to put a quality product on the field (not even RM or Barça) to compete in a globalized television era. Leagues that don't develop deeper talent beyond one or two teams won't be able to attract the TV revenue to attract the big talent. As my EPL fan friends say, "why should I watch Real vs. Elche if I already know the result will be 4-0 or 5-0 drubbing? I'd rather watch QPR try to nick a point from Liverpool. At least that game's outcome isn't a given."
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Kafka
Footballguy
That being said, as a Serie A devotee, how can it get any lower? They have gone from the top league(?) to the 5th-6th in European relevance in the span of 10-12 yrs (post calciopolo)...embarassing...and they do nothing but enable institutionalized malfeasance...both internationally and professionally .
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I'm sure that the LFP isn't far behind in "institutionalized malfeasance".
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Its no coincidence that Italy was on top when those clubs were spending more than anyone else. Its no surprise that the richest clubs in Europe are the most popular and have the most success. That's been the case as long as I can remember. The top clubs in the world are always going to be competitive, but as a league, the EPL has by far the most revenue, best TV deal and spends way more than any other league in the world. I believe Spain is changing its revenue sharing plan somewhat in the coming years. Its hard to call that smart anymore, its really just a matter of self-preservation. When Bayern made a loan to save Dortmund a few years ago, they didn't do that out of the pure goodness in their cold Bavarian hearts. It was purely a selfish move of last resort. That's why I think FFP is short-sighted. The big clubs are zealously protecting their turf, but almost certainly discouraging investment in their industry.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I think the fortunes of leagues generally follow players.
Real and Barca are always going to be massive global teams, but La Liga's current prestige is fueled in large part by having the two best players in the world play in the league. If AC Milan develops the next Messi, Serie A's fortunes will improve rapidly. Similarly, no matter how well Sir Alex did after selling Ronaldo, you have to wonder if United would have persisted longer as a truly top European contender with him as he entered his peak years. We all think of Ronaldo being awesome with United, but he's been another category of great with Real. 1.2 league goals per game since the transfer.
Real and Barca are always going to be massive global teams, but La Liga's current prestige is fueled in large part by having the two best players in the world play in the league. If AC Milan develops the next Messi, Serie A's fortunes will improve rapidly. Similarly, no matter how well Sir Alex did after selling Ronaldo, you have to wonder if United would have persisted longer as a truly top European contender with him as he entered his peak years. We all think of Ronaldo being awesome with United, but he's been another category of great with Real. 1.2 league goals per game since the transfer.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
We can all agree that FFP is a disaster. It's hard to even call it well-intentioned because anyone who's taken even Econ 101 level classes can tell you that its practical effect is to protect large clubs with already established revenue streams. Its essentially a barrier to entry to people who would like to invest in a less-established club because it treats the intelligent use of debt financing the same way it treats crazy use of debt financing.
El Floppo
Footballguy
I agree- but players generally follow the money.
When Serie A was tops, they were buying and paying the most and getting the best players, and now they aren't. It's going to take more than one of the squads developing somebody- because if the money's not there, he'll go pretty fast to where it is.
I certainly don't think it is 5th or 6th in terms of talent and still has the 4th spot in coefficients. Relative perception is largely going to be based on results in the European competitions. Juve, like City, just cannot find the right formula to winning in Europe right now even though they are great in Serie A. Meanwhile PSG, despite playing in a less talented league that they trail in, is having success in Europe that elevates the perception of Ligue 1.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
If the Bundesliga model, which some of us find really intriguing, results in a competitiveness problem (at least within the league), does this mean that there is really no solution at all to the lack of parity within leagues? Is the solution an American-style system and, if so, is surrendering to it worth the result of achieving its kind of parity?
I don't have a fully formulated opinion on these questions yet; I just know that transitioning to a closed system with salary caps and drafts would kill my interest in the last sport I follow. Is there a reasonable compromise and a better overall system?
I don't have a fully formulated opinion on these questions yet; I just know that transitioning to a closed system with salary caps and drafts would kill my interest in the last sport I follow. Is there a reasonable compromise and a better overall system?
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I agree that it's a strawman. I can't think of one year since this thread started that even the staunchest EPL honks wouldn't have named Barca and RM among the top three teams in the world. Most of those years, no EPL team would have been named. United or Chelsea might have snuck in a year or two after Milan lost Kaka and when Bayern was down. [SIZE=14.4444446563721px]Time after time, EPL fans have listed the reasons they follow the EPL. I can't think of a time the honks have listed "following the best teams in the world" among those reasons. [/SIZE]
But it's also marred by a sample-size bias. One matchday ago, Barca lost to PSG and RM beat Ludogarets 2-1. On matchday 1, Atletico lost to Olympiacos. Bilbao is last in their group. I know that Arsenal and Liverpool are nowhere near the class of Real Madrid and Barca. But I think they'd be a decent bet against Bilbao. The whole narrative seems to come down to the fact that City tends to #### the bed in Europe. But nobody disputes that. Nobody puts City among the best 5 teams in the world, even if their payroll and talent suggests they should be there.
But it's also marred by a sample-size bias. One matchday ago, Barca lost to PSG and RM beat Ludogarets 2-1. On matchday 1, Atletico lost to Olympiacos. Bilbao is last in their group. I know that Arsenal and Liverpool are nowhere near the class of Real Madrid and Barca. But I think they'd be a decent bet against Bilbao. The whole narrative seems to come down to the fact that City tends to #### the bed in Europe. But nobody disputes that. Nobody puts City among the best 5 teams in the world, even if their payroll and talent suggests they should be there.
GoFishTN
Footballguy
Distributing all of the Champions League money equally, without regard to final place or even participation, would help.
shader
Footballguy
Barcelona has scored 24 goals and allowed 0 in La Liga. That's boring, and will keep La Liga from gaining a lot of popularity.
Ultimately in the US, the EPL will thrive because there is no language barrier, and because it seems to be one of the best, if not the best league from top-to-bottom.
The biggest barrier that European soccer faces in the US, in my opinion, is the time zone barrier. I have a buddy who sits next to me who loves soccer. He played in high school, he loves the world cup, etc. But he is 100% devoted to work until 5-6pm. He watches sports at night. So he isn't going to really pay attention to the Champions League.
For me, the CL is the ultimate competition and the only way I'll watch Real Madrid and Barcelona (except for perhaps their games against each other). I just have no interest in La Liga because it seems like 2-3 great teams and a bunch of crap.
Ultimately in the US, the EPL will thrive because there is no language barrier, and because it seems to be one of the best, if not the best league from top-to-bottom.
The biggest barrier that European soccer faces in the US, in my opinion, is the time zone barrier. I have a buddy who sits next to me who loves soccer. He played in high school, he loves the world cup, etc. But he is 100% devoted to work until 5-6pm. He watches sports at night. So he isn't going to really pay attention to the Champions League.
For me, the CL is the ultimate competition and the only way I'll watch Real Madrid and Barcelona (except for perhaps their games against each other). I just have no interest in La Liga because it seems like 2-3 great teams and a bunch of crap.
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T Bell
Footballguy
Is there really a good argument to be made that Serie A is better than Ligue 1 right now? I'm not sure that it is. I don't see Juventus as being better than PSG at the top, and both leagues tail off rather dramatically from there.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Just for the hell of it, I ran some numbers on both EPL and La Liga over the past 5 seasons. I arbitrarily picked 3 and 7 .
Average points, teams placed 1-3 in past 5 years:
La Liga = 86.8 (1,302 points total)
EPL = 80.67 (1,210 points total)
Average points, teams placed 4-7 in past 5 years:
La Liga = 59.65 (1,193 points total)
EPL = 65.65 (1,313 points total)
Kinda interesting to me, I suppose. Your average La Liga top 3 finisher, including Valencia's whopping 61 (!) point 3rd-place finish in 11-12, finishes 6 points ahead of your average EPL top 3 finisher. And your average EPL 4-7 finisher finishes 6 points ahead of your average La Liga 4-7 finisher.
The gap between the La Liga top 3 and 4-7 = 27.15; gap between EPL = 15.02.
Fun fact: the only EPL 4-7 finishers below the La Liga average of 59.65 were Everton in 2010-2011 (54 pts) and in 2011-2012 (56 pts), and Liverpool in 2010-2011 (58 pts). No other EPL 4-7 finisher has finished below 61 points during the past 5 years.
Not that anyone was debating the parity comparison...just thought it'd be interesting.
Average points, teams placed 1-3 in past 5 years:
La Liga = 86.8 (1,302 points total)
EPL = 80.67 (1,210 points total)
Average points, teams placed 4-7 in past 5 years:
La Liga = 59.65 (1,193 points total)
EPL = 65.65 (1,313 points total)
Kinda interesting to me, I suppose. Your average La Liga top 3 finisher, including Valencia's whopping 61 (!) point 3rd-place finish in 11-12, finishes 6 points ahead of your average EPL top 3 finisher. And your average EPL 4-7 finisher finishes 6 points ahead of your average La Liga 4-7 finisher.
The gap between the La Liga top 3 and 4-7 = 27.15; gap between EPL = 15.02.
Fun fact: the only EPL 4-7 finishers below the La Liga average of 59.65 were Everton in 2010-2011 (54 pts) and in 2011-2012 (56 pts), and Liverpool in 2010-2011 (58 pts). No other EPL 4-7 finisher has finished below 61 points during the past 5 years.
Not that anyone was debating the parity comparison...just thought it'd be interesting.
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Kafka
Footballguy
I agree...and judging by European results, you could make a case for the Portuguese LG too; my point was it is institutionalized in Italy: status quo is maintained in the same vein as FFP. The rich get richer...to the detriment of the league. When the newly appointed head of the Italian Football Association made a remark about bananas& the African influence on the Italian game, he should have been fired. Period. ...but alas, the same old voices chime in..."out of context, blahblahBlatterBlatter...I think the "analogy" is apropos...just my 2 cents.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
The thing that makes La Liga interesting is that the classicos and, more recently Atletico games, are massive, season-deciding affairs. Its kind of like college football schedules, where there will be 9 or 10 games where a team is a huge favorite and the only drama is if it will slip up and fall to a massive upset, ruining the entire season. Then there's the 1 or 2 games on the schedule which decide everything. The EPL champion will likely lose a few to other top teams on the road, and will have dropped points in several games along the way.
Celph Titled
Footballguy
That Barca hasn't conceded this year is a product of a renewed emphasis on defense via Enrique, but they've also been very fortunate so far. There have been a lot of close-calls.
Barca, esp. Messi and Neymar, are going to be a net-positive in terms of La Liga's popularity, not a negative. It's crazy to think otherwise.
Sebowski
Footballguy
These are the ignorant type of comments that are annoy me.
Typical conversation:
EPL Guy: La Liga sucks because you know it is always either Barcelona or Real Madrid. No one else has a chance.
Me: Atletico Madrid won the league last year.
EPL Guy: Well, sometimes they're ok too I guess, but the EPL has so many teams that can win the title.
Me: Ok, who is going to win the EPL this year?
EPL Guy: Either Many City or Chelsea.
Me: That's only two teams.
Then it gets into the "top to bottom" BS, it it is pointless to try and argue if Swansea is better than Malaga. Neither is clearly better than the other. Same goes for the entire rest of the tables from each league "top to bottom".
And there are plenty of upsets in La Liga. Real has lost 2 games already. 2! And Atletico has lost 1 and drew 2. There aren't any Invincibles in any of the leagues today.
One more thing re: stagnation at the top. At least La Liga, Serie A, and the Bundesliga send different teams to the Champions League every year. The EPL it has been the same exact 4 out of 5 teams make it every. single. year. Booooooooooring…….
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
What Atletico did was awesome. They were 90 seconds away from the greatest club football story of my life. But in the 9 years previous, Barca and RM were 1-2 in 8 of them (Villareal were 2nd behind RM in 07-08). So I'm not sure Atletico's run last year really invalidates that point. What invalidates the point, IMO, is that no top league isn't top heavy.
Sebowski
Footballguy
HFS that Lamela gol!
ETA: I didn't catch it live. I was actually proud of him for hitting it with his right foot. But he still got his left on it!
ETA2: Not the best look, but first here was the live shot where it looks like his right, then a hard to tell other angle. I'm sure the better angle they showed later will pop up. Where is Jaysus when you need him?
https://vine.co/v/Ohet1qOYPB2
ETA: I didn't catch it live. I was actually proud of him for hitting it with his right foot. But he still got his left on it!
ETA2: Not the best look, but first here was the live shot where it looks like his right, then a hard to tell other angle. I'm sure the better angle they showed later will pop up. Where is Jaysus when you need him?
https://vine.co/v/Ohet1qOYPB2
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Jaysus
Good times!
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
No argument that the Bundesliga is top heavy. In the last 10 years Bayern has finished 1st 6 times, 2nd twice and 3rd and 4th once each.
In those same 10 years though 10 other teams have finished in the top 4.
Schalke 8 times finishing 2nd three times.
Bremen 5 times
Dortmund and Leverkusen 4 times each, with Dortmund winning twice.
Stuttgart, Hamburg and Berlin 2 times each, with Stuttgart winning once.
Wolfsburg, Hannover and Gladbach once each, with Wolfsburg winning once.
I think that's a pretty good rotation of teams.
In those same 10 years though 10 other teams have finished in the top 4.
Schalke 8 times finishing 2nd three times.
Bremen 5 times
Dortmund and Leverkusen 4 times each, with Dortmund winning twice.
Stuttgart, Hamburg and Berlin 2 times each, with Stuttgart winning once.
Wolfsburg, Hannover and Gladbach once each, with Wolfsburg winning once.
I think that's a pretty good rotation of teams.
jonessed
Footballguy
Meh. I don't think many people get excited about the World Cup consolation game either.Mjolnirs said:
What really sucks about Bayern's is that they strip their competition directly. It's a double-whammy. Not only do they get better players, but they take them directly from the other top teams. It must be incredibly demoralizing for anyone else trying to compete.
Celph Titled
Footballguy
I found a ranking system (based on betting odds) for the Top 100 teams in Europe. No clue how valid this is, but it seems to at least look somewhat plausible upon first glance.
Interesting that a couple of Championship teams rank well ahead of several EPL clubs.
http://www.soccer-rating.com/football-club-ranking/
Interesting that a couple of Championship teams rank well ahead of several EPL clubs.
http://www.soccer-rating.com/football-club-ranking/
Celph Titled
Footballguy
Obviously a couple of their big signings have come right out of Dortmund as of late, but I think they (as well as most of the massive clubs) are pretty agnostic as to who they're picking players from. You're taking a player from a rival, but you're also handing them a crate of money.
jonessed
Footballguy
If money was an adequate replacement for the loss of a club's best players we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Dortmund's been hurt in part because they didn't take the money for Lewandowski. They kept him an extra year and lost him on a free. Dortmund took Reus from a "direct competitor" (Gladbach, but Dortmund had actually let Reus leave their youth system as a teenager). They took Adrian Ramos from a "direct competitor" (Hertha Berlin). I don't see how they have anything to be complaining about.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Perhaps not, but we'd be arguing about something else that's equally pointless, so no harm.
Celph Titled
Footballguy
Just as in baseball, at some point it makes more sense for a club's long-term health if you cash in a player for money instead of letting him walk when his contract is up. It's not ideal, sure, but a savvy team can find replacements and not be slowed down too badly by the loss of a huge star.
Celph Titled
Footballguy
Yeah, this too. Your Dortmunds, Atleticos, and Arsenals are still 99% of the way up the food chain.
Lloris just made one of the best saves I have ever seen - great ball in to about the PK spot, dude, with his back to the goal, picked it clean out of the air for a full volley unimpeded on the goal, Lloris only had time to react and got a spider-man-like hand to steer it wide.
Just thought everyone should know.
Just thought everyone should know.
Sebowski
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
No, they triggered Mario's release clause. 37 million euros. I think Bayern is pretty good example of a great mix of homegrown guys (Lahm, Alaba, Schweiny), relative bargain signings (Bernat, Boateng, Rafinha, Dante, and even Robben considering his performance and the fact he was pretty much forced out at Real) and big money signings that have worked out (Neuer, Ribery). Jury's probably still out on Benatia, Lewandowski and Gotze and even Javi Martinez (although he was a huge part of the great 2013 team). Xabi Alonso looks like another absurd value.
lol - I am watching some spanish language version
Kane with the hat-trick
ANd - Lloris with the red card
Sebowski
Footballguy
This is awesome. Would be so much better if it was around the 75th, but this is awesome.
ETA: And he let's in a howler!
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