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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (7 Viewers)

NewlyRetired said:
Holy crap, I think it is happening...

=========================

Barco, one of the latest jewels emerged from the lower categories of Independiente, said in statements at the end of the game that next season will play for Atlanta United , Major Leage Soccer of the United States. 

"I am very happy for the title won but this is my farewell to the club, I did not want to leave without conquering a title and luckily we won this trophy," he said.
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Hey - I just don't understand how MLS transfer activity works. Please help a guy out (and don't link that flow chart again, funny as it is!)

1. ATL gets Nagbe for $1M. Is that a lot of money in the MLS? If its not, why arent other teams in for him? If it is....

2. How on earth can they afford to pay $14M for Barco? :confused:

I'm afraid I dont understand the economics of the league well enough to get excited about the deal. Yes I can theoretically appreciate the idea of buying a player for $14M and selling him in two years for ~$30M [also known as the Chelsea way]. But can they reinvest the proceeds in other better players down the road? Or is this now money in Arthur Blank's (or the MLSs) pocket?

For continuity sake, I really hope ATL keeps Almiron, Martinez and Villalba together for one more season - irrespective of who else they sign. The fan support has been outstanding but we all need more time to better understand how this zany league operates  :excited:

 
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Native said:
Hey - I just don't understand how MLS transfer activity works. Please help a guy out (and don't link that flow chart again, funny as it is!)

1. ATL gets Nagbe for $1M. Is that a lot of money in the MLS? If its not, why arent other teams in for him? If it is....

2. How on earth can they afford to pay $14M for Barco? :confused:

I'm afraid I dont understand the economics of the league well enough to get excited about the deal. Yes I can theoretically appreciate the idea of buying a player for $14M and selling him in two years for ~$30M [also known as the Chelsea way]. But can they reinvest the proceeds in other better players down the road? Or is this now money in Arthur Blank's (or the MLSs) pocket?

For continuity sake, I really hope ATL keeps Almiron, Martinez and Villalba together for one more season - irrespective of who else they sign. The fan support has been outstanding but we all need more time to better understand how this zany league operates  :excited:
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1)  Atlanta traded salary cap money (up to $1.6m if he hits all incentives) for Nagbe.  That is a huge amount of salary cap money to move.  Do not think of it as a transfer fee, it has nothing to do with that.  It is pure monopoly money.   No real money changes hands.

2) The transfer fee from Atlanta will come entirely from Blank.  If they sell him some day, most of the transfer fee will go back to Blank(some goes to the league).   That money can then be used again to buy another DP level player, assuming they have room for him.

Atlanta is one of the biggest clubs in our hemisphere now.  They are like the 25th highest drawing club in the entire world.   I am sure they are factoring in that they will be able to sell him down the road.   I can't tell you their finances but simple back of the envelope math tells you their game day revenue is huge (with respect to MLS in general).

If this signing happens, it is the first of its kind in MLS and how Atlanta handles this could easily shape the next 10 years of MLS.  It is that big a signing if it works out.  It is a totally different signing then Becks and has a lot more risk to it, but the upside could have a large affect on other clubs if Atlanta make this work (assuming it even happens).

Lots can go wrong but every club in the world that signs a young player knows the risks.  At least 7-10 other clubs will be watching very closely, while Kraft will pull Blank aside at the next NFL owners meeting and say "Arthur, that's not how we do things in MLS"

 
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NewlyRetired said:
2) The transfer fee from Atlanta will come entirely from Blank.*
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I should note that MLS creates a slush fund at the league level that owners can access to buy players.  I have no idea what the mechanism is or what the rules are.  This has always been the least transparent part of the flow chart.

 
NewlyRetired said:
1) Atlanta did not get money in the Nagbe deal.  Atlanta traded salary cap money (up to $1.6m if he hits all incentives) for Nagbe.  That is a huge amount of salary cap money to move.  Do not think of it as a transfer fee, it has nothing to do with that.  It is pure monopoly money.   No real money changes hands.
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Thanks for this. Doing some googling, it looks like the salary cap for 2018 will increase to $4.035 million per team not counting the extra salary of designated players. Players in the first 20 roster spots will count against the cap. So does that means that ATL now has only ~$3M to spend on their top 20 players and Portland has ~$5M? Is that right?

Also, given that ATL already has three DP's (Tito, Almiron and Martinez), does that mean Blaco's salary needs to count towards ATL's (now smaller) salary cap?

 
Native said:
Thanks for this. Doing some googling, it looks like the salary cap for 2018 will increase to $4.035 million per team not counting the extra salary of designated players. Players in the first 20 roster spots will count against the cap. So does that means that ATL now has only ~$3M to spend on their top 20 players and Portland has ~$5M? Is that right?

Also, given that ATL already has three DP's (Tito, Almiron and Martinez), does that mean Blaco's salary needs to count towards ATL's (now smaller) salary cap?
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ok very quick crash course (I can give a ton more detail in a PM if you have questions).  These are all 2017 numbers and will all increase for next year

*MLS does not work on a salary cap alone, they work on a salary budget.

*Salary Budget = Salary Cap + GAM + TAM + DP's

*Salary Cap: You stated this correctly.  One extra note, DP's do count against the cap, but at an extremely smaller amount than their salary

* GAM = General Allocation money.  This is a small amount of money given for many different reasons (missing the playoffs etc etc) that teams can use

* TAM - Targetted Allocation money.  This is a large amount of money that all teams get.  It is going up significantly next year.  Lots of various rules on how this money is used

* Each team is allowed up to 3 DP's.  But it is fairly easy and common practice to "buy down" a DP player using TAM to free up a new DP slot.  So it is likely that one of the 3 you mentioned (probably the cheapest) will be bought down from a DP to make room for Barco.

* Note that Barco, because of his age, is only going to take up a minuscule $150k on the cap, no matter what his salary is.

 
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Native said:
And BTW Im reposting the flow chart in case anyone wants to take another peek. (I do)  :)
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just to be clear, this is actually not a joke.  This is almost exactly what the flow chart looked like for 2017 :)   There are more rule changes coming in 2018 so it should get even more complicated.

The entire thing is designed for exactly one reason.  To make absolutely certain that the rank and file roster members do no make much money.

 
Native said:
Well that sucks  :(
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The league is showing every sign that they are more than willing to pay a very good salary for a starter level player but they do not want to waste their financial resources on players in the 17-28 roster positions.  I can see their point even if I don't like it.

The players have capitulated time and again during the CBA's.  But they can't be blind and have to see the massive amount of money that is flowing through the league now.  If there was ever a time to make a stand, it could be during the next CBA.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
ok very quick crash course (I can give a ton more detail in a PM if you have questions).  These are all 2017 numbers and will all increase for next year

*MLS does not work on a salary cap alone, they work on a salary budget.

*Salary Budget = Salary Cap + GAM + TAM + DP's

*Salary Cap: You stated this correctly.  One extra note, DP's do count against the cap, but at an extremely smaller amount than their salary

* GAM = General Allocation money.  This is a small amount of money given for many different reasons (missing the playoffs etc etc) that teams can use

* TAM - Targetted Allocation money.  This is a large amount of money that all teams get.  It is going up significantly next year.  Lots of various rules on how this money is used

* Each team is allowed up to 3 DP's.  But it is fairly easy and common practice to "buy down" a DP player using TAM to free up a new DP slot.  So it is likely that one of the 3 you mentioned (probably the cheapest) will be bought down from a DP to make room for Barco.

* Note that Barco, because of his age, is only going to take up a minuscule $150k no matter what his salary is.
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Thanks again. I think Im getting it (well not really). But I do see the 'Salary Budget Charge' for international players in the bottom right of the flow chart. Looks like the budget charge ranges from $150K to $480K depending on the situation. I believe thats what youre referring to. 

 
Native said:
 But I do see the 'Salary Budget Charge' for international players in the bottom right of the flow chart. Looks like the budget charge ranges from $150K to $480K depending on the situation. I believe thats what youre referring to. 
Click to expand...
The $150k to $480k is not just for international players.  It is the budget charge for any player that is designated by the team as a DP.  It breaks down as follows by age:

Under 20: $150k charge

Ages 21-23: $200k charge

Over 23: $480k (max budget charge)

 
NewlyRetired said:
The $150k to $480k is not just for international players.  It is the budget charge for any player that is designated by the team as a DP.  It breaks down as follows by age:

Under 20: $150k charge

Ages 21-23: $200k charge

Over 23: $480k (max budget charge)
Click to expand...
Thank you my friend. I now have enough info now to start reading on my own!  :thumbup:

 
And suffice to say if ATL acquires both Nagbe and Blanco, theyre going to have to sell one of Villalba or Almiron. No way they can play them all at the same time (not to mention Martinez)

 
Native said:
And suffice to say if ATL acquires both Nagbe and Blanco, theyre going to have to sell one of Villalba or Almiron. No way they can play them all at the same time (not to mention Martinez)
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Nagbe should be a like for like replacement for Assad.

I do not know how Tata would incorporate Barco but it is a good problem to have.

 
Native said:
Its as if they ran out of room on the page and just called it 'other'.
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it is the path for most foreign signings.  

Another staple in MLS structure is that the process is designed so that teams do not end up bidding against each other for the same player.  That is why you have to basically put a discovery tag on any player you want to sign.  And discovery does not mean just young unknown players, even when Chicago signed Schwiney, they first had to make sure they had him on their discovery list.

 
NewlyRetired said:
1)  Atlanta traded salary cap money (up to $1.6m if he hits all incentives) for Nagbe.  That is a huge amount of salary cap money to move.  Do not think of it as a transfer fee, it has nothing to do with that.  It is pure monopoly money.   No real money changes hands.

2) The transfer fee from Atlanta will come entirely from Blank.  If they sell him some day, most of the transfer fee will go back to Blank(some goes to the league).   That money can then be used again to buy another DP level player, assuming they have room for him.

Atlanta is one of the biggest clubs in our hemisphere now.  They are like the 25th highest drawing club in the entire world.   I am sure they are factoring in that they will be able to sell him down the road.   I can't tell you their finances but simple back of the envelope math tells you their game day revenue is huge (with respect to MLS in general).

If this signing happens, it is the first of its kind in MLS and how Atlanta handles this could easily shape the next 10 years of MLS.  It is that big a signing if it works out.  It is a totally different signing then Becks and has a lot more risk to it, but the upside could have a large affect on other clubs if Atlanta make this work (assuming it even happens).

Lots can go wrong but every club in the world that signs a young player knows the risks.  At least 7-10 other clubs will be watching very closely, while Kraft will pull Blank aside at the next NFL owners meeting and say "Arthur, that's not how we do things in MLS"
Click to expand...
1) Just to note, they didn't transfer "salary cap" money, but instead TAM/GAM money that is used to pay down salaries to get under the salary cap.  

2) Also, the transfer fee does come into play as it gets amortized over the course of the player's contract as "salary" for salary cap purposes (this is true for any player for who a transfer is paid and one of the reasons MLS historically hasn't paid transfers).  So if they pay a 15 million dollar fee Barco and he signs a 3 year contract at 1 million a year, the salary cap hit would be 6 million (5 million in transfer fees and 1 million in real salary).  Except he's a young DP, so the salary cap hit is only the 150K.  Signing him would also put Atlanta at 4 DPs which leads to....

Now, there is a whole bunch more TAM money this year that can be used for a variety of uses.  One of those uses is buying down DPs if their real salary is under 1.5 million.  Atlanta has 2 of those Villalba @ 770K and Martinez @ 1.04 million.  Once you buy that contract down to the league max, you free the DP slot (Note this is really just "funny" money).  BTW Portland is already doing this with Nagbe since he's making 550K, so Atlanta will have to as well.  

General MLS implications:

Signing young-DPs with relative big transfer fees is even more a viable strategy now since you can pay down your old DPs.  You could do this in the past, but the amount of money available to be used with GAM/TAM would put the rest of you roster in jeopardy.

The richer teams will be able to get a whole bunch of guys making 500-1 million dollars.  This again is Atlanta with Villalba, Martinez, Nagbe all in that range and then Barco and Almiron above that.  That's not unheard of in the past, but Atlanta still has room to make other moves which wasn't the case historically.  

Another thing to keep in mind is there is a limited pool of international slots in the league.  Each team gets 8 (so ATL is down to 7 now) and while they can be traded, all players in the 20 without a green card are "international".  So there is this interplay between signing DPs/international TAMs and having the international roster spots (which is one of the reasons they want Nagbe though it sort of defeats the purpose giving up the slot). 

In the end, my guess is that we'll see the better US players make more money with a corresponding de-emphasis on international quality veterans making 200-300K who have been a staple in the league. I think we are already seeing the value of Klejstein and Nagbe to two of the three really aggressive teams LAFC and Atlanta.  I won't be surprised if that trend continues this offseason and into the future (resulting in large contracts down the line).    You're also seeing something similar already occurring at NYCFC.  They basically traded Brilliant (280K CB) for a TAM quality RB in Tinnerholm while keeping middle of the road Americans like McNamara rostered.  

 
Ted Lange as your Bartender said:
ETA:  why wouldn't the US bid to host this?  Hold it in LA or Texas or Miami or something since it's December.  That would be one way to get an MLS team into the competition
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Does the host nation get an automatic placement into the competition?  I thought it was for the Champions League winners to play in?

ECL, Concacaf CL, etc.  US would have to actually take the CCL seriously and win it to play.

 
B Maverick said:
Does the host nation get an automatic placement into the competition?  I thought it was for the Champions League winners to play in?

ECL, Concacaf CL, etc.  US would have to actually take the CCL seriously and win it to play.
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The world club cup is made up of an awkward 7 teams.  1 winner from each of the 6 Confederations Champions League and the host countries National Champion.

 
Following Atlanta's playbook, NYCFC is in for Luis Medina:

The New York City of MLS and FC Copenhagen of Denmark are the clubs that have set their sights on Jesús Medina , of Libertad de Paraguay.
The player himself was in charge of informing the Guarani media about the interest that exists in those markets, for having their services.
"I know there are two offers, one from Copenhagen and the other from New York City ," Medina told AM1080 on Thursday.
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http://www.goal.com/es-ar/noticias/jesus-medina-tiene-ofertas-de-estados-unidos-y-europa/qcxhv5s8gf8c1om3luil647rg

 
NewlyRetired said:
That appears to be a much better use of funds than taking on a soon to be 35 year old Yaya.
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They can probably do both since I'd doubt Medina is a DP (they're also supposedly bringing in one of the Venezuela U-20 CBs which would be 3 off that team in the league now).  It looks like CFG wants them to be their Latin American pipeline which isn't the worst thing in the world.

EDIT: they're also trading Shelton to KC for Saleem

 
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If I am not mistaken, today is the MLS Board of Governors meeting where the big topic will be who they choose for expansion(they can also choose not to vote today in case they still have open questions). 

Even if they decide today, it was said earlier it wont be officially announced for a couple of weeks, but I assume some sort of leak to the press will happen.

 
btw andy and sammy (and native for asking)... this is the most comprehensive info I've read about MLS structure. longtime fan, but not of that side of things so I haven't bothered reading up on it. it's been really (actually true) interesting reading this stuff in hte bullet points you've both laid out. still don't really get all of it- but thanks for fleshing this stuff out. :thumbup:  

 
NewlyRetired said:
you can just smell the start of MLS 4.0(using Becks as the start of 3.0)
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I should note that I will only find this extra interesting if they sell these players on after a few years in the league to refresh the cash.  As ironic as it sounds, I really believe MLS needs to become a selling league to improve its quality.

 
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El Floppo said:
btw andy and sammy (and native for asking)... this is the most comprehensive info I've read about MLS structure. longtime fan, but not of that side of things so I haven't bothered reading up on it. it's been really (actually true) interesting reading this stuff in hte bullet points you've both laid out. still don't really get all of it- but thanks for fleshing this stuff out. :thumbup:  
Click to expand...
They like to complicate it, but the easiest way to think about it is the salary cap number is a hard number and each player's salary counts on that cap.  That cap hit is then manipulated based on DP-status, GAM/TAM pay-downs, type of player (generation adidas, homegrown).  

 
Matt Alvarez‏ @MAlvarezFOX17

“MLS will announce new expansion clubs in the local market of the new team” that per an MLS spokesperson regarding today’s meeting in NYC. “We do not anticipate any announcements today”

 
Sammy3469 said:
They like to complicate it, but the easiestA way to think about it is the salary cap number is a hard number and each player's salary counts on that cap.  That cap hit is then manipulated based on DP-status, GAM/TAM pay-downs, type of player (generation adidas, homegrown).B  
Click to expand...


A+B= :doh:  

where B = :loco:  

 
El Floppo said:
A+B= :doh:  

where B = :loco:  
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True that, although for '18 all that's really going to matter is how much TAM a club has left.  The effectively boosted the salary cap by 2.8 million with most salaries stil on the old salary cap structure.  

 
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more info on Medina

Shane Burns‏Verified account @ShaneBurns_

Libertad's 20-year-old Paraguayan Jesus Medina will sign for Manchester City for $4 million. If he obtains a work permit, he'll join New York City FC on a season-long loan in 2018.

 
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