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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (34 Viewers)

One of my favorite Derby's today Milan/Roma always a good show even when both clubs weren't great. Through the 90s and late 2000s this was a wonderful match because both sides had a club legend (Milan Paolo Maldini & Roma Francesco Totti) both one man clubs facing off for yrs. Now both are at their respective clubs in big roles to help them get to glory again. Always respected Roma and if I wasn't a Milan supporter Roma would've been my club 

 
DJackson10 said:
One of my favorite Derby's today Milan/Roma always a good show even when both clubs weren't great. Through the 90s and late 2000s this was a wonderful match because both sides had a club legend (Milan Paolo Maldini & Roma Francesco Totti) both one man clubs facing off for yrs. Now both are at their respective clubs in big roles to help them get to glory again. Always respected Roma and if I wasn't a Milan supporter Roma would've been my club 
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Is it a “derby” when Milan plays Roma? I always thought that term has a specific meaning. 
 

 
Former Union and USMNT international Charlie Davies is hosting the Paramount Plus Serie A today. Not sure what happened with Poppy or the other guy but he's done pretty well. Not as good as Zlatan will when he retires though but thats ok nothing can be better then the King Lion 

 
The Z Machine said:
I remember some folks got snippy with me when I said that Mendy was better than Lloris.
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That would have been an odd comparison to make - given that I don't think too many people here would have put Lloris into their top-3 GK in the PL.

 
I see headlines mention Brightons Graham Potter as Spurs 2nd choice behind Conte. When was the last time an EPL manager left for another EPL team mid-season? (Not arguing Spurs isn't bigger job. Just timing seems wrong)

 
Sinn Fein said:
Antonio Conte will arrive in London within the next hour to finalise his #thfc appointment. [Sky Sports]

Día de Muertos indeed.
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I had high hopes for Nuno... too bad. Conte- I guess he'll help get the team more organized, which can't hurt. 

btw- after 4 weeks, I'd have figured Arteta would be the next guy to shuffle in to a bigger team. but here we are in November, and all of a sudden Arsenal are quietly back in Europe spots.

 
Kind of rare for this to happen, but there's a big gap between the oddsmakers and 538 in terms of the EPL champion odds (this is if you cut out the chances that someone else wins -- i.e. assume it's only a 3-horse race):

  • 538:  City 36%, Liverpool 35%, Chelsea 30%
  • Oddsmakers:  City 42%, Liverpool 25%, Chelsea 32%
My guess is that 538's model doesn't account for squad depth very well and bases the odds only on results.  While the oddsmakers have more built into the view.  If that's right it's interesting to be able to quantify the value of a full 2nd team.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
You Make The Call.  (live ruling was a goal for Orlando) 
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I was expecting some sort of over/not over the line thing as the play developed, but that's obviously not the point of contention. And everyone looked onside when the ball was played.

So I'm Shuked on this one -- what's the argument it wasn't a goal?

ETA:  watching again, if it's that the yellow player stuck his leg in front of the Orlando player's shot without playing the ball at all that's a terrible call.  No different than a tackle that doesn't get the ball IMO.

 
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Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Kind of rare for this to happen, but there's a big gap between the oddsmakers and 538 in terms of the EPL champion odds (this is if you cut out the chances that someone else wins -- i.e. assume it's only a 3-horse race):

  • 538:  City 36%, Liverpool 35%, Chelsea 30%
  • Oddsmakers:  City 42%, Liverpool 25%, Chelsea 32%
My guess is that 538's model doesn't account for squad depth very well and bases the odds only on results.  While the oddsmakers have more built into the view.  If that's right it's interesting to be able to quantify the value of a full 2nd team.
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I would guess that 538 does not account for the AFCON players who could miss up to 6 games in January/February 

I think Chelsea and Liverpool will be impacted more than City. 

 
gianmarco said:
Ridiculous to get rid of him after only 10 games. So short sighted. Especially with the Kane fiasco to start. 
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I can’t tell if you are serious here. 
 

I have been a big supporter of Nuno - but he is (was) out of his depth.  And, significantly no signs of improvement in the squad. Blame rests with Levy more than Nuno, but Nuno was in an untenable position with fans, players, and management 

 
Sinn Fein said:
I can’t tell if you are serious here. 
 

I have been a big supporter of Nuno - but he is (was) out of his depth.  And, significantly no signs of improvement in the squad. Blame rests with Levy more than Nuno, but Nuno was in an untenable position with fans, players, and management 
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Definitely serious. Guy was hired 4 months ago and is gone after 10 games. They are in 8th. He got a win against City in week 1 (without Kane).

I'm not saying he's been good. But I think that is WAY too quick a hook. 

 
gianmarco said:
Definitely serious. Guy was hired 4 months ago and is gone after 10 games. They are in 8th. He got a win against City in week 1 (without Kane).

I'm not saying he's been good. But I think that is WAY too quick a hook. 
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Nah. 
 

It was a bad hire. I like the guy, but he was burned out at Wolves. This was always going to be the result. When you add the lack of goals, or even just shots on target, and you would understand why many supporters have been pushing for change for weeks. The play has been simply uninspiring. 

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
CletiusMaximus said:
You Make The Call.  (live ruling was a goal for Orlando) 
Click to expand...
I was expecting some sort of over/not over the line thing as the play developed, but that's obviously not the point of contention. And everyone looked onside when the ball was played.

So I'm Shuked on this one -- what's the argument it wasn't a goal?

ETA:  watching again, if it's that the yellow player stuck his leg in front of the Orlando player's shot without playing the ball at all that's a terrible call.  No different than a tackle that doesn't get the ball IMO.
Click to expand...
yellow guy appears to foul the orlando player coming in for the rebound... but given Clete's post, it must be that the goal was overturned and they've somehow said the orlando player fouled the yellow dude.

hopefully this messed up call doesn't affect orlando who are in the thick of the playoff hunt (unless it helps the RBs)

 
Sinn Fein said:
That would have been an odd comparison to make - given that I don't think too many people here would have put Lloris into their top-3 GK in the PL.
Click to expand...
I think the comment I remember was "if Mendy was better than Lloris, why did he choose to play for Senegal?" or something to that effect.

 
El Floppo said:
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
CletiusMaximus said:
Make The Call.  (live ruling was a goal for Orlando) 
Click to expand...
I was expecting some sort of over/not over the line thing as the play developed, but that's obviously not the point of contention. And everyone looked onside when the ball was played.

So I'm Shuked on this one -- what's the argument it wasn't a goal?

ETA:  watching again, if it's that the yellow player stuck his leg in front of the Orlando player's shot without playing the ball at all that's a terrible call.  No different than a tackle that doesn't get the ball IMO.



Expand  
Click to expand...
yellow guy appears to foul the orlando player coming in for the rebound... but given Clete's post, it must be that the goal was overturned and they've somehow said the orlando player fouled the yellow dude.

hopefully this messed up call doesn't affect orlando who are in the thick of the playoff hunt (unless it helps the RBs)
Click to expand...


I was not watching live, but from what I can tell the goal was first allowed (would've sealed a playoff spot for O-City), then disallowed due to a foul called on Dike (kicking the yellow-clad defender.)

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I was not watching live, but from what I can tell the goal was first allowed (would've sealed a playoff spot for O-City), then disallowed due to a foul called on Dike (kicking the yellow-clad defender.)
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it was overturned on VAR? 

wow. that's clear and obvious that Dike fouled the defender, and not vice-versa (as it appears to me)? I guess another angle might show that better.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I was not watching live, but from what I can tell the goal was first allowed (would've sealed a playoff spot for O-City), then disallowed due to a foul called on Dike (kicking the yellow-clad defender.)
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Looks confusing I guess, but seems exactly the same to me as a slide tackle that comes in after the ball is gone -- where the defender is too late to get the ball, but takes the player.  Yellow is trying to play the ball, but misses and impedes the shot.

 
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Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Looks confusing I guess, but seems exactly the same to me as a slide tackle that comes in after the ball is gone -- where the defender is too late to get the ball, but takes the player.  Yellow is trying to play the ball, but misses and impedes the shot.
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same.

they're both coming in to get the ball, and to my eyes it's almost simultaneous arrival. that Dike is trying to strike the ball while the defender is just trying to get his foot in the way is irrelevant. to me, no way that's clear and obvious from that angle... but again, would need another angle to know better. the angle shown has Dike arriving in screen first, which adds to it looking like he's the one getting fouled.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Nah. 
 

It was a bad hire. I like the guy, but he was burned out at Wolves. This was always going to be the result. When you add the lack of goals, or even just shots on target, and you would understand why many supporters have been pushing for change for weeks. The play has been simply uninspiring. 
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I'm in this camp.  It was a bad hire. Nuno was like a poor man's Mourinho, he was driving the bus from the kickoff.

Levy botched this in so many ways.  He should have stuck with Fonseca or gone with Conte over the summer.  I'm not sure I love the hire of Conte, but it has to be an improvement.  

 
Poke_4_Life said:
Sinn Fein said:
Nah. 
 

It was a bad hire. I like the guy, but he was burned out at Wolves. This was always going to be the result. When you add the lack of goals, or even just shots on target, and you would understand why many supporters have been pushing for change for weeks. The play has been simply uninspiring. 
Click to expand...
I'm in this camp.  It was a bad hire. Nuno was like a poor man's Mourinho, he was driving the bus from the kickoff.

Levy botched this in so many ways.  He should have stuck with Fonseca or gone with Conte over the summer.  I'm not sure I love the hire of Conte, but it has to be an improvement.  
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this is all interesting.. because I thought Wolves played great, without the same talent Spurs has. I havne't been watching Spurs this year, so the bus-parking seems strange to hear given what I'd seen of Nuno's Wolves teams.

 
It can be both.  Nuno was a bad hire, but to get rid of him after 10 games is insanity. He was coach of the month in August winning three games 1-0 if I remember correctly.  All without Kane.

Anyone who takes the Spurs job is going to be screwed while Kane pouts instead of playing.  He has 1 goal and 1 assist.

 
United wasn't even a better team on Saturday, just clinical in front of goal.  And Varane showed his importance in D.  Spurs just didn't have ambition, no shots on target?

 
B Maverick said:
It can be both.  Nuno was a bad hire, but to get rid of him after 10 games is insanity. He was coach of the month in August winning three games 1-0 if I remember correctly.  All without Kane.

Anyone who takes the Spurs job is going to be screwed while Kane pouts instead of playing.  He has 1 goal and 1 assist.
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First - its been 17 games.  While the rest of the world ignores the Europa Conference League, some of us are duty-bound to watch - and the performances there have been retched.

Second - the first concern is a lack of improvement from Game 1 to Game 17.  There has been none.

Third - Yes, Kane has been a ####.  Nuno was not able to manage around that.

Fourth - Spurs rank at, or near the bottom, of all attacking stats - Shots, Shots on Target, Goal, chances created, etc.  They have no ####### clue what they are doing.  Certainly part of that is down to the players - but, as the manager, you have to figure that out.

Fifth -  after the three 1-0 wins in August, the warning signs were already there, and a big chunk of the fan base already wanted him gone (or more realistically, never wanted him hired, so never gave him a chance).

Sixth - he had lost the dressing room.  Players were not happy with his training, nor his communication.

Seventh - in addition to the trio of 1-0 wins, Spurs have been on the losing end of 0-3 scores three times.

Eighth - Spurs are 0-5 in London Derbys this year.

 
Ninth - Conte was available

Tenth - Non-zero chance of a fan riot if Nuno remained in charge.

Eleventy - None of this absolves Levy from a series of bad decisions going back years, that have put Spurs in this position.

 
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Sinn Fein said:
First - its been 17 games.  While the rest of the world ignores the Europa Conference League, some of us are duty-bound to watch - and the performances there have been retched.

Second - the first concern is a lack of improvement from Game 1 to Game 17.  There has been none.

Third - Yes, Kane has been a ####.  Nuno was not able to manage around that.

Fourth - Spurs rank at, or near the bottom, of all attacking stats - Shots, Shots on Target, Goal, chances created, etc.  They have no ####### clue what they are doing.  Certainly part of that is down to the players - but, as the manager, you have to figure that out.

Fifth -  after the three 1-0 wins in August, the warning signs were already there, and a big chunk of the fan base already wanted him gone (or more realistically, never wanted him hired, so never gave him a chance).

Sixth - he had lost the dressing room.  Players were not happy with his training, nor his communication.

Seventh - in addition to the trio of 1-0 wins, Spurs have been on the losing end of 0-3 scores three times.

Eighth - Spurs are 0-5 in London Derbys this year.
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:goodposting:   Thank you for the additional points.  I guess it was 10 league games....

As for the bolded, that's all BS since its the same thing that was said about Poch and Jose. Maybe they just don't like to train?

 
B Maverick said:
:goodposting:   Thank you for the additional points.  I guess it was 10 league games....

As for the bolded, that's all BS since its the same thing that was said about Poch and Jose. Maybe they just don't like to train?
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The summer Spurs lost to Liverpool in the CL Final, Poch said the squad needed a "painful rebuild"

Too many players had fallen into complacency.  Levy disagreed.  

A core group of those players have now been there when Poch was sacked, when Jose was sacked, and now when Nuno was sacked.

Its not always about the manager - this is a group that needs breaking up.

Allegedly - the sticking point for Levy this summer was teh transfer budget that Conte wanted, but they have now reached an understanding of the task at hand, beginning in the January window.

I was expecting Spurs to sell Kane to City or Newcastle in January, but now, I think they may hold out until next summer.  2-3 players in - ideally in early January - and this is a team that should win the Europa Conference League, and as long as Ole stays at United, the race for 4th place should be competitive.

One of the things that Conte does well, that Jose does not do, and Nuno did not do well, is Conte knows how to coach.  I think if he gets in there, he can coach better performances from the existing players, while also brining in fresh bodies.

 
For too long, too many Tottenham Hotspur players have had an excuse. Things had become stale under Mauricio Pochettino. Jose Mourinho was past his best. Nuno Espirito Santo was never good enough.
Rightly or wrongly, these were all reasons the club’s under-performers could point to as soon as results dipped or things started to get tough over the past two years or so.

But, now, with Antonio Conte coming in to replace Nuno, the excuses have been stripped away and if the players fail again then, this time, there can be no debate: it will be on them.

There are no doubts over his relevance or his ability to get his teams over the line and there can certainly be no questioning Conte’s pedigree. He’s made the best even better and won everywhere he’s been.
Just ask Romelu Lukaku, who became a world-class striker under Conte; or Cesc Fabregas, who admitted the Italian took his game to a place he did not believe it could go; or Leonardo Bonucci, who credits Conte with changing the path of his career. This list goes on.

And if any of the Tottenham players are in any doubt about how things will be under Conte, they need only refer to an interview he did with Thierry Henry, who was a team-mate of the former midfielder at Juventus.
“I always talk about education and respect,” said Conte. “I demand this. I give this. But I demand this. And if someone hasn’t a good attitude in the training session or good behaviour in different circumstances, I prefer to kill him.”

Players do not have to like Conte, certainly not at first, to prosper under him. Fabregas was unhappy with being initially rotated and dropped after the 52-year-old arrived at Chelsea and demanded he cover more ground.
But the Spaniard was clever enough to quickly realise that it was Conte’s way or no way at all for him at Stamford Bridge and now claims he became a player he did not know he could be under the former Italy manager.
Fabregas was an integral part of Conte’s Premier League-winning Chelsea team, providing assist after assist for Diego Costa who was famously told he could leave the club by text message.

Costa had been Chelsea’s top scorer, but, having tried to force a January move to China, the striker was no longer trusted as a man Conte could rely upon. Would Harry Kane have been so bold to extend his summer holiday had Conte, rather than Nuno, been in charge at the time? Unlikely, one would have thought.

If the environment has been a little too cosy for a few at Tottenham over recent years, then they can expect a nasty shock - no matter their name or profile.

A combustible character, Conte’s relationship with chairman Daniel Levy, who has generally backed his players over his managers, will be fascinating.

But there is another lesson to be learned from Conte’s time at Chelsea that would suggest that he and Levy will not be fighting running battles - not at first at least.

During Conte’s first and most successful year in charge of Chelsea, he had Michael Emenalo, the club’s technical director at the time and a man who holds a degree in international relations and diplomacy, to sound off to. 
One of Conte’s regrets from his time in West London was that, at first, he did not fully trust Emenalo, who eventually became an important peacekeeper between the head coach and the board.

It was after Emenalo’s departure that Conte’s relationship with certain figures at Chelsea became more strained and Fabio Paratici’s position at Tottenham could be key.

Paratici and Conte have already worked together at Juventus and their relationship was a vital factor in Tottenham’s latest approach. As the managing director of football, it is Paratici’s responsibility to deal with the club’s head coach on a day-to-day basis.

Conte’s door will no doubt be open to Levy, but it is Paratici who is likely to have daily access to the head coach and attempt to meet his transfer-window demands.

There is a myth pushed by Conte’s critics that he is a chequebook manager who relies on big-money signings. He undoubtedly demands and asks for the best, but he also makes the very best of what he has.

At Chelsea, Marcos Alonso was signed under the radar and became one of the best specialist left wing-backs in the game, while Victor Moses, a player largely ignored at Chelsea, prospered in a new position at right wing-back. His handling of John Terry’s final year and David Luiz’s return to the club was also masterly. Tottenham players will be given chances and it is up to them to take them, rather than moan about favouritism or a squad hierarchy.
Whereas supporters were never convinced by the appointment of Nuno, and Mourinho split opinion, there is a sense that Conte represents a genuine coup for Tottenham at a time when it appeared hard to see who might want to take on the task.

Other than Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp, Conte is the only man this decade to coach a team past the 90-point mark in the Premier League and, unlike the Spaniard and the German, he managed to win the title at his first attempt.

That achievement perhaps remains underestimated and yet Tottenham could yet provide Conte with his biggest challenge to date. But it is the reputation of the players and not the serial winner that is now on the line.
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El Floppo said:
I had high hopes for Nuno... too bad. Conte- I guess he'll help get the team more organized, which can't hurt. 

btw- after 4 weeks, I'd have figured Arteta would be the next guy to shuffle in to a bigger team. but here we are in November, and all of a sudden Arsenal are quietly back in Europe spots.
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This is the full Arteta experience.  For weeks at a time, Arsenal will look pretty good and (more importantly) look like they're making progress to becoming a better club.  Then they'll have some crap results again and you'll look and realize that they're still not much closer to being a CL club.

This year, the run seems to be tied, more than anything, to the promotion of Ramsdale over Leno.  Particularly against Leicester on Saturday, where Ramsdale played about as flawlessly as a keeper can play with a stunning stop on the Madds free kick and super clean distribution all game.  

 
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