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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (6 Viewers)

I might be misreading your last sentence but regular season MLS games have been on national TV since the league started in 1996.

This is the first time that all broadcast partners have a dedicated window so that the games are on at a similar time every week which is a nice addition.
Well I always had a hard time finding games in the past. I guess I'm looking forward to knowing that Friday night and Sunday night will have games.
If you were not a deep fan, it was like playing Where's Waldo with the guide :) . The games were all over the place, various days times etc every week.

This new steady format should lead to more stability. Hopefully it works out for the broadcast partners and they keep it past this year.

 
@thegoalkeeper: Orlando City-NYCFC: 539,000

@thegoalkeeper: Sporting Kansas City-New York Red Bulls: 268,000

@thegoalkeeper: Seattle Sounders-New England Revolution: 289,000
Biggest MLS number ever on ESPN2. And I think those first 2 FS1 numbers are better than almost anything NBCSN did the last couple of years. I think only 3 out of the last 75 NBCSN games drew more.

Great start to the season.

TSN in Canada also posted their largest number ever.

 
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IMO build it to 19.5k, and expand if demand is really there after a couple years. There are way worse problems than demand > supply for your product, and they won't really know how things are going attendance-wise until they go through a FL summer and the novelty wears off.
That is how I lean as well.

I can understand the thought process though as I bet building once big is going to be much cheaper than building once small and the upgrading.

Toronto is upscaling their stadium right now. The upgrade is costing more I think than the original stadium cost.

If they decide to wait it out, how would you handle capacity at Citrus Bowl? Just sell every ticket you can or limit to some artificial capacity like Seattle and Vancouver do?
Yeah- going to be cheaper and easier to build it all now.

that said- I agree with rob (and you)... build it the way it was originally conceived and see where you stand after a couple of seasons. I wouldn't go near that place in the dead of summer... but maybe their fans are more committed than I'm guessing.

I would start with a set number at the Citrus Bowl... 20, 25k whatever adjusted to whatever demand there is based on the first few games.
I kinda lean to building 27k now. Can't be too much more in cost, esp vs. upgrading in a few years. I agree that summers in Orlando will be brutal, but evening games would be the primary time for kickoff I assume. I just think cashing in on that 7.5k of demand now will pay off even if attendance wains to 15k or so in a few years.

Also, if I was the owner the prices for tickets would go up as well. Supply and demand basics.

 
@thegoalkeeper: Orlando City-NYCFC: 539,000

@thegoalkeeper: Sporting Kansas City-New York Red Bulls: 268,000

@thegoalkeeper: Seattle Sounders-New England Revolution: 289,000
Biggest MLS number ever on ESPN2. And I think those 2 FS1 numbers are better than almost anything NBCSN did the last couple of years.

Great start to the season.

TSN in Canada also posted their largest number ever.
I think the dedicated Friday/Sunday windows are going to be huge

 
@thegoalkeeper: Orlando City-NYCFC: 539,000

@thegoalkeeper: Sporting Kansas City-New York Red Bulls: 268,000

@thegoalkeeper: Seattle Sounders-New England Revolution: 289,000
Biggest MLS number ever on ESPN2.And I think those 2 FS1 numbers are better than almost anything NBCSN did the last couple of years.

Great start to the season.

TSN in Canada also posted their largest number ever.
I think the dedicated Friday/Sunday windows are going to be huge
And to think they were this close to ####### this up with a work stoppage.

These numbers are also the average for the full 2.5 hour window which means the in game data was likely higher since pregame and post game stuff almost always has less viewers.

 
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Nice U-21 side for United today v Spurs

Manchester United

@ManUtdhttps://twitter.com/ManUtdFollow

U21s vs Spurs (19:00 GMT): Valdes, Rafael, Love, Thorpe, James, Grimshaw, Goss, Rothwell, A.Pereira, Falcao, Wilson. #mufc

1:06 PM - 10 Mar 2015

How many over 21's is an under 21 team allowed to have?
I'm going to guess 3 (Valdes, Rafael, Falcao)
Valdes' decision to sign for United just gets weirder and weirder in retrospect. Looks even more strange on a Champions League Tuesday.

 
El Floppo said:
Sinn Fein said:
CletiusMaximus said:
Nice U-21 side for United today v Spurs

Manchester United

@ManUtd
FollowU21s vs Spurs (19:00 GMT): Valdes, Rafael, Love, Thorpe, James, Grimshaw, Goss, Rothwell, A.Pereira, Falcao, Wilson. #mufc

1:06 PM - 10 Mar 2015
1-1 draw :oldunsure:
did Flacco get any minutes?
Joe? I don't think so.

Tottenham Hotspur @SpursOfficial · 1m1 minute agoU21s: FT - @ManUtd 1-1 Spurs. Excellent game, lads defended well and Carter-Vickers struck woodwork in second half. #COYS
 
A nice ESPN piece from a Brit looking at American soccer in general and MLS. Pretty well balanced overall.

Major League Soccer not there yet, but it's on the way to global legitimacy
On Friday, Major League Soccer's new season kicked off. It felt like a seismic campaign for what we still think of -- back in the old world -- as a newcomer to world football. Not just because the league is now 20 years young, but because it was welcoming two new teams, New York City and Orlando City, and a host of new stars, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, David Villa and Kaka among them. Even across the Atlantic, there was a sense that something was happening in the United States, that football was finally conquering what has long been seen as its final frontier.

It seemed, then, a fitting time for a British newspaper to dispatch a reporter to New York and take the temperature of the game in the city and in the country as a whole, to ask not just how New York City FC were put together but whether they were welcome in one of the world's most intense sporting landscapes and whether MLS can ever fulfil its ambition to be one of the best leagues in the world.

What I found was, to some extent, what I was expecting. By accident rather than by design, I have spent much of the last two World Cups traipsing around after the U.S. national team. I saw all of their games in South Africa and all but one in Brazil. What struck me (especially last summer) was the fans; they sent more than any other country, bar the hosts, and their fervour was eye-catching.

That was enough to convince me that the old question -- when will America learn to love football? -- was now redundant. Twenty-two million watched Jurgen Klinsmann's team play Portugal in Brazil. That is twice as many people as there are in Portugal.

The U.S. has, at the last count, around 70 million inhabitants who are interested in the sport. That may not be a majority but that should not be the barometer of whether a country likes football or not; if it was, Britain would not count -- only 20.6 million watched the World Cup final here, less than a third of the UK's 64.1 million population. If you're not watching the World Cup final, you probably don't count as a football fan.

To travel to New York and find countless bars showing Premier League games, then, or to see Real Madrid and Barcelona shirts as I walked around Tribeca and Williamsburg was not a surprise. I knew America had fallen for the game.

I also knew that European football in particular was what was popular. I knew a welter of websites (like this one, for example) and magazines have sprung up in recent years to cater for that taste. I knew that just as basketball fans in Europe will watch the NBA, soccer fans in the States had identified the highest form of the game and had chosen to follow it. I knew that sport was a globalised marketplace, and that it can be difficult for local products to thrive.

But then there were the things I did not know. The best thing about sports journalism is that, often, it is not really about sport at all: the game becomes a prism through which you can see other processes at work. So it is with the story of football in the U.S., which is not really a story about football but one of culture, of technology and society.

MLS was launched in 1995, right at the dawn of the digital age. This meant that, as Jeff Agoos (an MLS executive and a former U.S. national team player) told me, it was born at a time when the US was rapidly becoming "part of the global conversation." That made it easy for fans to follow European or Latin American football, and it offered the nascent league a double-edged sword: far more interest in the sport they were trying to push, but also far more competition for their attention. That led, in turn, to what as an outsider seems the most fascinating sociological aspect of football in the States.

In Europe, liking football is an aspect of mainstream masculine culture. To be different -- to convey the idea that you eschew what is expected of you, that you are uniquely discerning in your interests -- it is necessary to express your disdain for football. Liking football is at odds with the fads and fashions of the posing hipster and the sneering chatterati.

The opposite is true in the States. There was long a feeling that soccer was somehow un-American -- witness Ann Coulter's attack on the sport being a sign of "moral decay" as World Cup fever took hold last summer -- which led, in turn, to it being imbued with a sort of counter-culture cool. Football, in New York and I would guess in the States as a whole, is young and urban and aspirational. It is Europhile and outward-looking. It is worldly, completely opposed to the world of soccer moms and minivans to which it was supposed to appeal 20 years ago.

Discovery, though, does not end with the gathering of facts and opinions and details. It continues right through the process of publication. I went to New York to find things out and relay them to an audience in Britain. That, in itself, can be revelatory. This is where it comes in handy to remember the journey, because the reaction of an Old World audience to the story of football in the new was intriguing, too.

It has long been a source of irritation in Europe that the U.S. did not care much for football. Convincing America to like football, like convincing America to like British music or films, was for a long time seen as a matter of national pride.

Yet there's something odd about it: now that America does like football, and in huge numbers, there is no sense of joy. There is only a slightly embittered feeling that they don't do it properly (they have playoffs and salary caps, the fools!) and a fairly widespread desire to suggest that it is all fake, plastic and doomed to fail.

MLS has been dismissed (by some, not all) as a retirement home, a never-going-to-be league where has-beens play out their days with wannabes. The standard is low, we say, and attendances are not great. It will never be a rival to any of the leagues in Europe. We are sure of that. Its various setbacks are reported with a degree of glee: the Lampard farrago, David Beckham's problems in Miami, the recent threat of a player strike, the fact that Bradley Wright-Phillips could be considered one of the biggest stars. All of these ideas feed into the idea that MLS is fighting a losing battle and America will never quite get the best of Europe, or Africa, or even Asia.

All of this jars with me. Not just because there are a lot of good people with a lot of good ideas working on growing the sport. Not just because it is redolent of a certain amount of good old-fashioned European anti-Americanism. And not just because it is my one avowed belief about football that anyone who likes the sport should want it to do as well as possible anywhere, rather than concentrating power with their team or in their country.

It jars, largely, because people forget the journeys they have been on themselves. There was a time not that long ago when the major European clubs sneered at the Premier League. They thought it was a retirement home. They found its tactical naivety astounding. The very best players laughed at the very idea of going there in the prime of their careers. It was a lucrative retirement home. It was seen, in short, roughly as MLS is seen now. But it changed, and it changed fast.

That is not to say MLS is about to overtake the Premier League. There are issues: the salary cap and single-entity model, as the league remind you, give it a competitive balance that none of the European leagues can match. Pretty much anyone can believe they might win the title this season; only a handful of clubs can say that in Europe.

Yet the very same structures serve to limit MLS's growth: with just three designated players and a limited salary cap, it is hard to build a truly competitive squad. With most of any transfer fee kept by the league, there is no incentive to develop youth players. With so much revenue shared, it is hard to see either how investors make their money back or why they would try to make their clubs anything other than as good as everyone else. The system fails to encourage excellence.

Just as importantly, MLS cannot offer Champions League football, and it does not offer the tradition or the history that European leagues do. To players hoping to test their mettle against the best in the world, hoping to fulfil childhood dreams, Real Madrid remains the aim, not Real Salt Lake.

There is a but. MLS has advantages that go some way to counteracting all of that. Players can go to the U.S. knowing they will be paid regularly; that is not true in a host of European leagues. There are a huge number of players locked out of the Champions League who may well see New York or Los Angeles or Chicago as a rather nicer place to earn their keep than Sunderland or Rennes or Mainz. There is also the added benefit, if they stay long enough, of U.S. citizenship. To many players from across the world, that could prove to be a powerful lure.

MLS and commissioner Don Garber have a stated aim of being one of the best leagues in the world by 2022. It is not there yet. There is a lot of work to be done, and difficult choices to be made. It is, though, on its journey. This is the difficult bit: the traffic jam, the holding pattern, the endless train ride.

It is a journey other leagues have been on, too. They made it to their destination and forgot all about how long it took them to get there. That is why they dismiss the credentials of their new rival. Sometimes, though, it is best not to forget. It is best to remember.
 
In general what is the culture among EPL teams regarding the other Premier League teams in the champions league? I suppose they want them to get stomped? Or is there a "league pride" thing?

 
In general what is the culture among EPL teams regarding the other Premier League teams in the champions league? I suppose they want them to get stomped? Or is there a "league pride" thing?
I think more often than not, they want stomp.

Smaller, younger leagues like MLS have more of the "league pride" thing since there is more of a feeling that a rising tide lifts all boats.

 
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In general what is the culture among EPL teams regarding the other Premier League teams in the champions league? I suppose they want them to get stomped? Or is there a "league pride" thing?
All non-Chelsea fans would root against Chelsea. All non-Liverpool fans would root against Liverpool. Ditto Arsenal, City, United, Spurs, etc. The lone exception would be Southampton, the most lovable bunch of plucky underdogs in all of the British Isles.

 
In general what is the culture among EPL teams regarding the other Premier League teams in the champions league? I suppose they want them to get stomped? Or is there a "league pride" thing?
I'll half-heartedly pull for Arsenal, don't care about City either way, but United and Chelsea losing 5-0 is a good day.

Also, horrible red card. He was pulling out of the challenge and didn't get much of Oscar.

 
In general what is the culture among EPL teams regarding the other Premier League teams in the champions league? I suppose they want them to get stomped? Or is there a "league pride" thing?
I'll half-heartedly pull for Arsenal, don't care about City either way, but United and Chelsea losing 5-0 is a good day.

Also, horrible red card. He was pulling out of the challenge and didn't get much of Oscar.
I'd root for Arsenal in the final since theyve never won would hope United, City and Liverpool all lose.

 
A nice ESPN piece from a Brit looking at American soccer in general and MLS. Pretty well balanced overall.

Major League Soccer not there yet, but it's on the way to global legitimacy
On Friday, Major League Soccer's new season kicked off. It felt like a seismic campaign for what we still think of -- back in the old world -- as a newcomer to world football. Not just because the league is now 20 years young, but because it was welcoming two new teams, New York City and Orlando City, and a host of new stars, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, David Villa and Kaka among them. Even across the Atlantic, there was a sense that something was happening in the United States, that football was finally conquering what has long been seen as its final frontier.

It seemed, then, a fitting time for a British newspaper to dispatch a reporter to New York and take the temperature of the game in the city and in the country as a whole, to ask not just how New York City FC were put together but whether they were welcome in one of the world's most intense sporting landscapes and whether MLS can ever fulfil its ambition to be one of the best leagues in the world.

What I found was, to some extent, what I was expecting. By accident rather than by design, I have spent much of the last two World Cups traipsing around after the U.S. national team. I saw all of their games in South Africa and all but one in Brazil. What struck me (especially last summer) was the fans; they sent more than any other country, bar the hosts, and their fervour was eye-catching.

That was enough to convince me that the old question -- when will America learn to love football? -- was now redundant. Twenty-two million watched Jurgen Klinsmann's team play Portugal in Brazil. That is twice as many people as there are in Portugal.

The U.S. has, at the last count, around 70 million inhabitants who are interested in the sport. That may not be a majority but that should not be the barometer of whether a country likes football or not; if it was, Britain would not count -- only 20.6 million watched the World Cup final here, less than a third of the UK's 64.1 million population. If you're not watching the World Cup final, you probably don't count as a football fan.

To travel to New York and find countless bars showing Premier League games, then, or to see Real Madrid and Barcelona shirts as I walked around Tribeca and Williamsburg was not a surprise. I knew America had fallen for the game.

I also knew that European football in particular was what was popular. I knew a welter of websites (like this one, for example) and magazines have sprung up in recent years to cater for that taste. I knew that just as basketball fans in Europe will watch the NBA, soccer fans in the States had identified the highest form of the game and had chosen to follow it. I knew that sport was a globalised marketplace, and that it can be difficult for local products to thrive.

But then there were the things I did not know. The best thing about sports journalism is that, often, it is not really about sport at all: the game becomes a prism through which you can see other processes at work. So it is with the story of football in the U.S., which is not really a story about football but one of culture, of technology and society.

MLS was launched in 1995, right at the dawn of the digital age. This meant that, as Jeff Agoos (an MLS executive and a former U.S. national team player) told me, it was born at a time when the US was rapidly becoming "part of the global conversation." That made it easy for fans to follow European or Latin American football, and it offered the nascent league a double-edged sword: far more interest in the sport they were trying to push, but also far more competition for their attention. That led, in turn, to what as an outsider seems the most fascinating sociological aspect of football in the States.

In Europe, liking football is an aspect of mainstream masculine culture. To be different -- to convey the idea that you eschew what is expected of you, that you are uniquely discerning in your interests -- it is necessary to express your disdain for football. Liking football is at odds with the fads and fashions of the posing hipster and the sneering chatterati.

The opposite is true in the States. There was long a feeling that soccer was somehow un-American -- witness Ann Coulter's attack on the sport being a sign of "moral decay" as World Cup fever took hold last summer -- which led, in turn, to it being imbued with a sort of counter-culture cool. Football, in New York and I would guess in the States as a whole, is young and urban and aspirational. It is Europhile and outward-looking. It is worldly, completely opposed to the world of soccer moms and minivans to which it was supposed to appeal 20 years ago.

Discovery, though, does not end with the gathering of facts and opinions and details. It continues right through the process of publication. I went to New York to find things out and relay them to an audience in Britain. That, in itself, can be revelatory. This is where it comes in handy to remember the journey, because the reaction of an Old World audience to the story of football in the new was intriguing, too.

It has long been a source of irritation in Europe that the U.S. did not care much for football. Convincing America to like football, like convincing America to like British music or films, was for a long time seen as a matter of national pride.

Yet there's something odd about it: now that America does like football, and in huge numbers, there is no sense of joy. There is only a slightly embittered feeling that they don't do it properly (they have playoffs and salary caps, the fools!) and a fairly widespread desire to suggest that it is all fake, plastic and doomed to fail.

MLS has been dismissed (by some, not all) as a retirement home, a never-going-to-be league where has-beens play out their days with wannabes. The standard is low, we say, and attendances are not great. It will never be a rival to any of the leagues in Europe. We are sure of that. Its various setbacks are reported with a degree of glee: the Lampard farrago, David Beckham's problems in Miami, the recent threat of a player strike, the fact that Bradley Wright-Phillips could be considered one of the biggest stars. All of these ideas feed into the idea that MLS is fighting a losing battle and America will never quite get the best of Europe, or Africa, or even Asia.

All of this jars with me. Not just because there are a lot of good people with a lot of good ideas working on growing the sport. Not just because it is redolent of a certain amount of good old-fashioned European anti-Americanism. And not just because it is my one avowed belief about football that anyone who likes the sport should want it to do as well as possible anywhere, rather than concentrating power with their team or in their country.

It jars, largely, because people forget the journeys they have been on themselves. There was a time not that long ago when the major European clubs sneered at the Premier League. They thought it was a retirement home. They found its tactical naivety astounding. The very best players laughed at the very idea of going there in the prime of their careers. It was a lucrative retirement home. It was seen, in short, roughly as MLS is seen now. But it changed, and it changed fast.

That is not to say MLS is about to overtake the Premier League. There are issues: the salary cap and single-entity model, as the league remind you, give it a competitive balance that none of the European leagues can match. Pretty much anyone can believe they might win the title this season; only a handful of clubs can say that in Europe.

Yet the very same structures serve to limit MLS's growth: with just three designated players and a limited salary cap, it is hard to build a truly competitive squad. With most of any transfer fee kept by the league, there is no incentive to develop youth players. With so much revenue shared, it is hard to see either how investors make their money back or why they would try to make their clubs anything other than as good as everyone else. The system fails to encourage excellence.

Just as importantly, MLS cannot offer Champions League football, and it does not offer the tradition or the history that European leagues do. To players hoping to test their mettle against the best in the world, hoping to fulfil childhood dreams, Real Madrid remains the aim, not Real Salt Lake.

There is a but. MLS has advantages that go some way to counteracting all of that. Players can go to the U.S. knowing they will be paid regularly; that is not true in a host of European leagues. There are a huge number of players locked out of the Champions League who may well see New York or Los Angeles or Chicago as a rather nicer place to earn their keep than Sunderland or Rennes or Mainz. There is also the added benefit, if they stay long enough, of U.S. citizenship. To many players from across the world, that could prove to be a powerful lure.

MLS and commissioner Don Garber have a stated aim of being one of the best leagues in the world by 2022. It is not there yet. There is a lot of work to be done, and difficult choices to be made. It is, though, on its journey. This is the difficult bit: the traffic jam, the holding pattern, the endless train ride.

It is a journey other leagues have been on, too. They made it to their destination and forgot all about how long it took them to get there. That is why they dismiss the credentials of their new rival. Sometimes, though, it is best not to forget. It is best to remember.
I enjoyed that column very much. Lots of questions, lots of hopes. I always try to dwell on our advantages over our disadvantages.

 
Oscar doing his best to level things up man-wise. Cheap shot, and then a yellow after Zlatan's red.
Whoa. That wasn't much, but in addition to the other stuff and PSG being down a man he's dancing on the edge.

ETA: if I were PSG I'd be looking for a good hard tackle on Oscar right now.

 
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