babydemon90
Footballguy
Open competition in training camp between Howell and Heineke next year?
Personally I think you guys should keep Wentz, and draft a QB in the 2nd to groom just so Wentz has pure PTSD if he's not there already.
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***OFFICIAL*** Washington Commanders Thread (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter dgreen
- Start date
Personally I think you guys should keep Wentz, and draft a QB in the 2nd to groom just so Wentz has pure PTSD if he's not there already.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
The only QB under contract next year is Howell. They won't start him until they are out of the playoffs. It's gonna be a mess AGAIN unless Howell is named starter over the offseason or they get other starting talent in here. I'd let both Wentz and Heinicke walk. If you can't win at least 2 playoff games with them, why are they here.
Their #1 problem is Ron has no checks on him. As a GM, he has missed on top draft picks. He has missed on free agent acquisitions. He has incorrectly extended Scott Turner. He has ignored his OL deficiencies. He has ignore LB deficiencies. He has tried to get by with guys like Fitzpatrick, Kyle Allen, Henicke, and Wentz playing QB. (ETA Garrett Gilbert ... forgot about him playing a game) . All no more than adequate at the stage WAS got them. You don't give all the keys to a coach that has 3 winning seasons in 11 years .... that is on Dan.
I give Ron credit for making decent picks middle and deep in the draft and bringing a semblance of order to the team that the players like. But that doesn't win Super Bowls. Winning super bowls requires great coaches and a QB that can win games with his arm. It requires more than 8 wins in a season. It requires wins by more than 2 points and beating bad teams. In that regard he's done no better than his predecessors.
The problem lies with Ron as GM and Scott Tuner as OC. Nothing else to talk about. That alone is the problem. They stink.
If I'm the new Commanders owner, I'm likely getting a new GM and hoping he cleans house or at minimum the clears out the OC and his minions.
Their #1 problem is Ron has no checks on him. As a GM, he has missed on top draft picks. He has missed on free agent acquisitions. He has incorrectly extended Scott Turner. He has ignored his OL deficiencies. He has ignore LB deficiencies. He has tried to get by with guys like Fitzpatrick, Kyle Allen, Henicke, and Wentz playing QB. (ETA Garrett Gilbert ... forgot about him playing a game) . All no more than adequate at the stage WAS got them. You don't give all the keys to a coach that has 3 winning seasons in 11 years .... that is on Dan.
I give Ron credit for making decent picks middle and deep in the draft and bringing a semblance of order to the team that the players like. But that doesn't win Super Bowls. Winning super bowls requires great coaches and a QB that can win games with his arm. It requires more than 8 wins in a season. It requires wins by more than 2 points and beating bad teams. In that regard he's done no better than his predecessors.
The problem lies with Ron as GM and Scott Tuner as OC. Nothing else to talk about. That alone is the problem. They stink.
If I'm the new Commanders owner, I'm likely getting a new GM and hoping he cleans house or at minimum the clears out the OC and his minions.
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fatness
Footballguy
That's the worst case scenario, starting Wentz again. It's bad if they lose with him, and it's even worse if they win with him and get into the playoffs where they lose to a superior team. The the front office will decide to re-sign Wentz, draft a QB in round 3-4 instead of round 1, and leave us in the Wentz/Heinicke tar pit for a couple more years.
Man I hope this team gets sold.
fatness
Footballguy
You're right.
Do we have any earthly chance against San Francisco this Saturday?
I am racking my brain to figure out how. Maybe if we get at least 3 turnovers and score on at least one of them, and don't turn it over ourselves.
I don't want to say it's impossible, because we beat Philly, but the difference is, SF is not gonna let us run and control the clock like that. Turner may have to take the training wheels off of Heinicke, let him run around outside the pocket, and go YOLO mode downfield to McLaurin.
I guess you got to line up and play, but struggling to find a reason to feel that we can take this one. What do you got?
I am racking my brain to figure out how. Maybe if we get at least 3 turnovers and score on at least one of them, and don't turn it over ourselves.
I don't want to say it's impossible, because we beat Philly, but the difference is, SF is not gonna let us run and control the clock like that. Turner may have to take the training wheels off of Heinicke, let him run around outside the pocket, and go YOLO mode downfield to McLaurin.
I guess you got to line up and play, but struggling to find a reason to feel that we can take this one. What do you got?
That is the nightmare scenario. Darn you for putting that intrusive thought into my head!
And it seems that -- sale or no sale -- Rivera will likely be back next year.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I actually don't have a problem with Ron being back in either scenario as coach if only for a bit of continuity during the potential sale. I have a problem with him operating as GM, where there's nobody to tell him what he's done poorly. I'm sure he's self-analyzed. But that's very different than a GM saying "no, we aren't extending Turner 4 years" or "no, we aren't going to overdraft Jamin Davis when Christian Darrisaw is available" or "Tua and Herbert are our only options...forget about Chase Young". I'm sure I'm not the only fan that thought those were all ridiculous moves. I suspect most were against all but maybe Chase Young.
Ron isn't as smart personnel wise as he thinks he is, and he's overly loyal to players and coaches that haven't really achieved anything. A GM won't be perfect either, but they will clamp down on the obvious mistakes Ron has made.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
This team tends to play to the level of its competition. But in this case I think San Fran simply has too much defense for WAS, including the ability to stop the run with their DL. I sense an ugly game for whoever plays QB.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
fatness
Footballguy
Jeremy Reaves professional record: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkjNYivWQAAKA59?format=jpg&name=medium
fatness
Footballguy
He just can't be back as GM. His tendency to favor players he knows and his tendency to draft and choose free agents poorly have hurt the team and will continue to do so.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
He also lost his mom last year (that's why Rivera told him she would be proud of him).
There's so much to be cynical about in the NFL, but stories like that are (almost) enough to drown it all out. I don't know how much a Pro Bowl special teamer makes, but I hope it's life-changing money for him and his family. And even if it isn't, the fact that he persevered through so many setbacks and achieved this success will be life-changing in its own right
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
$84K per player win or lose, and they have to show up to get it. That is in addition to whatever his contract says he earns from it, which at his position may not be much. He makes $965K this year so he's paid decent. Awesome story money aside. Undrafted out of South Alabama to a pro bowler. https://www.tmz.com/2022/12/22/comm...own-after-pro-bowl-selection-emotional-video/
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Great video, Rivera is a players coach
This is the most awesome thing I've seen all year. Seriously, gives me a reason to keep watching, stuff like this...
I think having Ron next year for continuity purposes is not terrible either. He's not great but he's been good for the stability of the football side of the house. What he seems to do well is keep everyone on that side together and marching in the same direction. Even if they face adversity, they stick together and remain motivated and many times they play well late. That speaks well to Ron's abilities as a leader of men. I think guys truly like him and are willing to be lead by him.
I think that's a little different than my thinking he's a great coach. While he's a decent leader and keeps his teams together, I feel we are often outcoached on game day. In Ron's defense, perhaps this is because we're so limited at QB that he feels our play design/scheme is also limited. Or perhaps it is because Scott Turner is a cretin. But Ron not only hired him, he extended him. (Side note: while everyone slams Jeff Saturday for getting a job without paying dues, why does everyone assume Scott Turner has earned a shot as OC...his experience before was VERY limited and mostly due to his Dad. I honestly think Saturday may have had better experience in his playing days...but I dunno it's just me but Turner gets a giant pass from many I suspect he's just straight not up to snuff.)
As a GM, horrible I agree.
I guess, in terms of whether he's kept or not, I tend to agree that for continuities sake, it's not the worst thing. But I don't really see a scenario where he stays next year without being both GM and Coach. We know as long as Snyder is around, he's gonna stick with "coach centric" approach which means this won't change. Meanwhile, my hunch is new owner, if he keeps Ron initially, he'll just keep status quo all around and see how it goes for a year. THen that woudl give him a year to change everything. But once he decides to change, he'll throw out the whole team -- GM, Coach, Team President, etc. and start again. I can't see a new owner coming in, keeping Ron, but forcing a new GM in piecemeal fashion. That's a little too tactical and not what new ownership often does, which is hitting the reset button. But I know nothing, obviously.
dgreen
Footballguy
It's a very likable group of players.
fatness
Footballguy
Speaking of Snyder not being around, bids are due tomorrow for the team and supposedly there are 5-7 bidders.
https://twitter.com/JPFinlayNBCS/status/1606049757247307778
I'll take Phil Swift. I'll take the ShamWow guy. I'll take Eric Cartman. Anyone but Dan Snyder.
facook
Footballguy
I've said in this thread that Rivera is a terrible head coach. I think he lacks a lot on gameday (besides his GM deficiencies). But you can't dismiss how that group of players love and respect him. Very cool.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Merry Christmas fellow Skins fans. Thankful to have you all to discuss the team with (and vent with). Wish we had more good stuff to talk about and so many hadn't moved on from this chat. Hopefully a new owner is a reality and we can bring this chat back to its high point.
I haven't posted much lately and I have not been following the team as closely as in the past. But here are some of my thoughts:
1. It may be hard to evaluate Rivera since there is always so much crap going on with the team off the football field. I think Rivera and a number of players have commented on the challenges of focusing on football with all the off the field issues.
2. I doubt the sale of the Commanders will happen in time for changing the GM and coaching staff. If the sale does not close by January, they are probably all here for another year.
3. I think Heinicke has shown he is not a starting QB, but a fine backup. Heinicke appears to provide some magic when he first comes in. But it appears to wear off as the season goes along. The Heinicke magic is gone for this year.
4. I am not sure the team fully knows what they have in Wentz. Granted, I did not see some of the games early in the season. I think they need to start Wentz the next couple of games and see what he can do with Brian Robinson at RB and the defense playing well.
5. I am not entirely convinced Heinicke will come back to the Commanders in free agency. There is a comfort level and QB position in flux for opportunity, but this team is just so dysfunctional and now for sale.
1. It may be hard to evaluate Rivera since there is always so much crap going on with the team off the football field. I think Rivera and a number of players have commented on the challenges of focusing on football with all the off the field issues.
2. I doubt the sale of the Commanders will happen in time for changing the GM and coaching staff. If the sale does not close by January, they are probably all here for another year.
3. I think Heinicke has shown he is not a starting QB, but a fine backup. Heinicke appears to provide some magic when he first comes in. But it appears to wear off as the season goes along. The Heinicke magic is gone for this year.
4. I am not sure the team fully knows what they have in Wentz. Granted, I did not see some of the games early in the season. I think they need to start Wentz the next couple of games and see what he can do with Brian Robinson at RB and the defense playing well.
5. I am not entirely convinced Heinicke will come back to the Commanders in free agency. There is a comfort level and QB position in flux for opportunity, but this team is just so dysfunctional and now for sale.
ffmail4me
Footballguy
I still think starting Howell is more important than starting Wentz. We aren't going to pay his salary next year (nor should we) so why not see what we have in Howell? And even if this team wins to squeak in the playoffs with Wentz, does anyone really think they can win more than 1 game (or even the first round game?) I'd rather know going into next year what we have in the QB room by starting Howell.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I imagine most fans are right behind you on this. But a coach won't ever be. They are always trying to win the next game especially when the playoffs are in sight.
My guess is Howell is the starter day 1 next year. He has the arm. He's no worse than Henicke. The only question is who competes with him to make him earn it. I imagine that is Wentz on a lesser contract. And Henicke is gone. As bad as Wentz looked early, so much of that was on play calling and OL. He's simply better than Heinicke, who earned his wins on the back of the defense.
As for QB3, I'm always for drafting a QB until you have one, especially in Round 2 or later. There is an enormous competitive advantage if you have a QB on a rookie contract with a team option tacked onto it. Hendon Hooker, Bo Bix, DTR. All have potential that nobody can assess really until they play against other pros.
I could see Kyler Murray being available for anyone willing to eat his contract. ARI has the 4th pick now. Easy to get a QB and start fresh. I would not go that route if I'm Ron, but I think it will be available.
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Original “Hogs” Sue Dan Snyder/Commanders - The MoCo Show
In a press release tweeted by NBC Sports’ JP Finlay, attorney Seth Berenzweig has announced that the “originals HOGS”, a group that consists of Joe Jacoby, Mark May, John Riggins,…
mocoshow.com
Tanner9919
Footballguy
is riverboat ron even worth keeping as hc?? futility ron has had a string of .500 teams in his day as an nfl hc how does this clown keep getting hc gigs??
fatness
Footballguy
I don't think he's a great HC, but he's done pretty well this year for a team without a quarterback.
fatness
Footballguy
So apparently Wentz is now the starter.
The team would likely go 1-1 with Wentz and 1-1 with Heinicke at QB from here on out. One of them makes $28 million this year and one does not. This seems like a desperate move on Rivera's part. Maybe he's on more of a hot seat than we've been thinking. They're not going to do **** if they make the playoffs, so the only advantage I can see in switching to Wentz is in Ron's mind as a hope to increase their chances at making the playoffs and increase his job security.
https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/carson-wentz-to-take-over-for-taylor-heinicke-as-commanders-qb
The team would likely go 1-1 with Wentz and 1-1 with Heinicke at QB from here on out. One of them makes $28 million this year and one does not. This seems like a desperate move on Rivera's part. Maybe he's on more of a hot seat than we've been thinking. They're not going to do **** if they make the playoffs, so the only advantage I can see in switching to Wentz is in Ron's mind as a hope to increase their chances at making the playoffs and increase his job security.
https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/carson-wentz-to-take-over-for-taylor-heinicke-as-commanders-qb
dgreen
Footballguy
The talk has been that Wentz has a better grasp of the offense now than he did at the beginning of the season. His one drive did look good last weekend, but hard for me to tell if SF was backing off on that drive or not. My main problem with him early in the season was that he looked like a QB who didn't know where to go with the ball and was lost in the offense, especially against PHI and DAL. If he really does now know the offense, then maybe that makes him viable for now.
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
fatness
Footballguy
It's official. Wentz is starting.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I have ZERO doubt that Scott Turner is the worst OC in the in NFL. And by a LOT. It doesn't matter who the QB is ... Wentz, Heinicke, Smith, Allen, Howell, Fitzpatrick ... even Pat Mahomes would suck playing for Scott Turner. This guy has the worst plays, play calling and player usage imaginable. And why he is here falls on Ron Rivera. I think I take it back that Ron is back next year. I think they are all gone if the team is sold. And even if it's not, I think Danny fires them all. The change has to start all the way at new GM, because this team has no direction, no coaches, and what talent they have is completely misused. And I definitely include Del Rio in that. His schemes are lost in the 1980s. One more loss next week and Ron is behind Gruden.
| Ron Rivera | 2020-2022 | 21-27-1 | 42.0% | 0-1 |
| Bill Callahan | 2019 | 3-8-0 | 27.3% | 0-0 |
| Jay Gruden | 2014-2019 | 35-49-1 | 41.8% | 0-1 |
| Mike Shanahan | 2010-2013 | 24-40-0 | 37.5% | 0-1 |
| Jim Zorn | 2008-2009 | 12-20-0 | 37.5% | 0-0 |
ffmail4me
Footballguy
Agreed, and switching to Wentz looks REALLY dumb now. I am sure we would have had a much better chance to win today with Taylor OR Howell. What a train wreck trade for Wentz that turned out to be. Just pitiful. SURELY, and I've been begging for this for months, SURELY we start Howell next week right???
There is no chance Rivera is getting fired this off season. The basic reason is new ownership will not be in place to make the change. Snyder will not fire Rivera because a new GM and coach, with a long term contract (say 5 years) will drive the sale price down if they buyers don't like the hire. If Snyder fires Rivera, he is almost certainly not selling the team.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
If that's really the case, then Snyder should direct Ron to trade all 2023 draft picks for future draft picks. And not sign any big contracts. And play Howell. All of those have the potential to increase the value of the franchise for the next owner(s). Knowing there is cap space. Knowing they have draft picks for the new GM. Then Ron can roll out the same slop from this year less Payne and Wentz.
So, maybe the answer is do a bit of something. Like fire Ron and Scott. Elevate Del Rio, and let him bring in an OC he trusts. At least it's something different. more of same = same results. Pick someone in personnel to be acting GM. The Ron/Scott combo really needs to go.
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fatness
Footballguy
JP Finlay
@JPFinlayNBCS
What’s interesting: Rivera maybe not knowing about getting eliminated
What’s important: December collapse for a 2nd straight season while making an at best questionable QB change
@JPFinlayNBCS
What’s interesting: Rivera maybe not knowing about getting eliminated
What’s important: December collapse for a 2nd straight season while making an at best questionable QB change
fatness
Footballguy
This one is actually worth reading, because it's based on reciting events and not on emotion. Ron Rivera Should Be Fired Tonight
I've bolded the best sentence.
I've bolded the best sentence.
nittanylion
Footballguy
Major Tuddy, for cripes sake....
I keep thinking it can't get any worse. Then this guy shows up.
FML
I keep thinking it can't get any worse. Then this guy shows up.
FML
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Thing is, it's all irrelevant. This club has proven year over year that they don't have the personnel in place to make good draft choices. They'll **** it all up just like they do every draft.
fatness
Footballguy
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Assuming Rivera survives while Dan is selling, WAS should trade every 2023 pick for a 2024 pick. The ones they are allowed (can't trade compensatory picks). And that is no joke or lie. And Dan Snyder should absolutely force it. It adds value to the team. It gives the new owner time to get a GM/coach in place to make personnel decisions. What's the point of drafting anyone in 2023. Sign a vet (maybe or maybe not Heinicke). Let Heinicke or vet fight for the job with Howell to play under a lame duck Rivera. Release Wentz. Let Payne walk. With the remaining ~$40M in cap space, sign a few mid level players to help at LB, TE, CB, and OL to make the team as average as always. Roll into 2024-2025 with 13 draft picks for the the new GM. The last thing this team needs to do is go get David Carr (and I like Carr) and handicap the next GM/coach with a big contract and less draft picks. I oddly hope Dan turns himself into the team's GM while this sale is in progress.
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