Online poker is back in the US, a start? (1 Viewer)

[TxBuckeye]

Surprised there is no thread on this yet. Thought it would be a big deal here. Only Nevada for now, but hopefully it is a start?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57582303-93/legal-online-poker-site-goes-live-for-nevada-residents/

 

[NCCommish]

Probably be a bigger deal when it isn't just for the residents of one state and everyone can play.

 

[Warrior]

Probably be a bigger deal when it isn't just for the residents of one state and everyone can play.

Thanks, Capernicus.

 

[Socrates11]

Sweet! If Nevada sees significant tax revenue from this, you can be certain other states will follow suit in short order.

 

[TxBuckeye]

Probably be a bigger deal when it isn't just for the residents of one state and everyone can play.

I always expected that any move towards legalizing it again would start with a single state and grow from there. And Nevada seemed likely to be that state. So, figured the fact it actually happened would generate more buzz. Maybe the "fad" has passed and people don't care as much about it as they once did. I know that I personally may never go back to online play. But I thought quite a few here still would, and they would be somewhat excited by the prospect of the door opening.

 

[NCCommish]

Probably be a bigger deal when it isn't just for the residents of one state and everyone can play.

Thanks, Capernicus.

That is Mr. Copernicus to you, thanks.

 

[NCCommish]

Probably be a bigger deal when it isn't just for the residents of one state and everyone can play.

I always expected that any move towards legalizing it again would start with a single state and grow from there. And Nevada seemed likely to be that state. So, figured the fact it actually happened would generate more buzz. Maybe the "fad" has passed and people don't care as much about it as they once did. I know that I personally may never go back to online play. But I thought quite a few here still would, and they would be somewhat excited by the prospect of the door opening.

Oh I agree it was going to be the states pushing it. I am still fairly surprised the casino guys still haven't paid off enough congress critters to get it back to legal for everyone. I was just saying if it had gone nationwide I think it would be a huge story compared to this.

 

[Sand]

What's the rake structure like? I anticipate something draconian (and not worth it).

 

[TxBuckeye]

Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:What's the rake structure like? I anticipate something draconian (and not worth it).

The story didn't cover it, but isn't there a poker playing FFA guy in Vegas that plays professionally, Asani Fisher I think is the name? He may be able to fill in details if he stops by.

 

[Hooper31]

Going to really suck if this spreads across the nation, but states with specific laws outlawing online gaming still can't play.

Washington state. Sure, smoke a doob, but online nickel-dime limit poker is a class C felony. F my life.

 

[[icon]]

1) this only works when its a national/global game.

2) Online poker will never be close to what it was in the party poker days... the majority of casual players washed out and have lost interest as the fad is "dead".

The game only truly thrives when there is a lot of fresh blood coming in. When it does FINALLY go live nationally, you'll see an initial rush of players maybe equivalent to 20-25% of what we saw during the boom.... and 75% or more of those folks will wash out promptly due to going busto thanks to the horrible ratio of Very good to excellent players vs Dead money out there now. RIP Online Poker.

 

[[icon]]

Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:What's the rake structure like? I anticipate something draconian (and not worth it).

The story didn't cover it, but isn't there a poker playing FFA guy in Vegas that plays professionally, Asani Fisher I think is the name? He may be able to fill in details if he stops by.

Assani does play for a living... splits time between Live play in Vegas (at the Wynn frequently) and renting places in Canada or Mexico to stay for month(s) on end to play online.

 

[Joe T]

The online game is rigged. Stay away.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

TxBuckeye, on 01 May 2013 - 13:05, said:

Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:What's the rake structure like? I anticipate something draconian (and not worth it).

The story didn't cover it, but isn't there a poker playing FFA guy in Vegas that plays professionally, Asani Fisher I think is the name? He may be able to fill in details if he stops by.

last I heard, Assani moved to Mexico so he could play online with no restrictions.

 

[UniAlias]

TxBuckeye, on 01 May 2013 - 13:05, said:

Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:What's the rake structure like? I anticipate something draconian (and not worth it).

The story didn't cover it, but isn't there a poker playing FFA guy in Vegas that plays professionally, Asani Fisher I think is the name? He may be able to fill in details if he stops by.

last I heard, Assani moved to Mexico so he could play online with no restrictions.

¡Ollas de hielo!

 

[The Big Guy]

If things work as planned, coming soon to NJ next. Poker Stars is trying to buy the Atlantic club as their NJ base of operations and open up an online presence as well. The legislature is ok with it too, which is usually the sticking point.

 

[lod01]

1) this only works when its a national/global game.

2) Online poker will never be close to what it was in the party poker days... the majority of casual players washed out and have lost interest as the fad is "dead".

The game only truly thrives when there is a lot of fresh blood coming in. When it does FINALLY go live nationally, you'll see an initial rush of players maybe equivalent to 20-25% of what we saw during the boom.... and 75% or more of those folks will wash out promptly due to going busto thanks to the horrible ratio of Very good to excellent players vs Dead money out there now. RIP Online Poker.

Yeah. Let me know when there are a large number of suckers and maniacs at the table and Pacific Poker is allowed to have US players again. It was like having a US currency printing press in your home.

 

[Spartans Rule]

1) this only works when its a national/global game.

2) Online poker will never be close to what it was in the party poker days... the majority of casual players washed out and have lost interest as the fad is "dead".

The game only truly thrives when there is a lot of fresh blood coming in. When it does FINALLY go live nationally, you'll see an initial rush of players maybe equivalent to 20-25% of what we saw during the boom.... and 75% or more of those folks will wash out promptly due to going busto thanks to the horrible ratio of Very good to excellent players vs Dead money out there now. RIP Online Poker.

Yeah. Let me know when there are a large number of suckers and maniacs at the table and Pacific Poker is allowed to have US players again. It was like having a US currency printing press in your home.

Man, I wish could go back in time. I had no idea how to play poker and I made a couple grand just by being less awful than everyone else. With what I know now...

 

[Premier]

TxBuckeye, on 01 May 2013 - 13:05, said:

Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:What's the rake structure like? I anticipate something draconian (and not worth it).

The story didn't cover it, but isn't there a poker playing FFA guy in Vegas that plays professionally, Asani Fisher I think is the name? He may be able to fill in details if he stops by.

last I heard, Assani moved to Mexico so he could play online with no restrictions.

I just can't imagine wanting to play poker that bad. Even if you get rich doing it.

 

[lod01]

Couldn't find it in the article but 2 questions.

1. How does the state of Nevada override the fed law of banning internet poker in the US.

2. How do they 'collect taxes' on it? The rake? if so, that rake just got pretty expensive, right?

 

[Nipsey]

If there was only a way to play online already.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

lod01, on 01 May 2013 - 15:57, said:1. How does the state of Nevada override the fed law of banning internet poker in the US.

I'm not aware of such a law. What is it?

 

[Hooper31]

lod01, on 01 May 2013 - 15:57, said:1. How does the state of Nevada override the fed law of banning internet poker in the US.

I'm not aware of such a law. What is it?

There is no federal law banning internet poker.

EDIT: This is what kills me about the law in my state (WA). The commerce clause of the Constitution is clear that states don't have the authority to regulate/limit interstate and international commerce. This is a power reserved by the federal government.

 

[FootballDummy]

lod01, on 01 May 2013 - 15:57, said:1. How does the state of Nevada override the fed law of banning internet poker in the US.

I'm not aware of such a law. What is it?

There is no federal law banning internet poker.

EDIT: This is what kills me about the law in my state (WA). The commerce clause of the Constitution is clear that states don't have the authority to regulate/limit interstate and international commerce. This is a power reserved by the federal government.

I thought they did something with the wire transfer law or something. Or prohibited banks from dealing with poker sites, which had a chilling effect in the US. Memory is hazy though.

 

[Brony]

This time it will be all skill.

 

[Hooper31]

I thought they did something with the wire transfer law or something. Or prohibited banks from dealing with poker sites, which had a chilling effect in the US. Memory is hazy though.

Yes. You can't transfer money electronically to poker sites out of the country. There are limitations on transferring the money, but no laws against playing online poker. Shutting down the transfer of funds shut down the game. That doesn't prevent people from playing online within the U.S.

With regard to the Wire Act, the Justice Department put forth a paper this past year stating specifically that the Wire Act didn't apply to online poker.

LINK

“The Department’s Office of Legal Counsel (“OLC”) has analyzed the scope of the Wire Act, 18 U.S.c § 1084, and concluded that it is limited only to sports betting,” U.S. Deputy Attorney General James Cole wrote in a letter on Friday.

 

[Dentist]

1) this only works when its a national/global game.

2) Online poker will never be close to what it was in the party poker days... the majority of casual players washed out and have lost interest as the fad is "dead".

The game only truly thrives when there is a lot of fresh blood coming in. When it does FINALLY go live nationally, you'll see an initial rush of players maybe equivalent to 20-25% of what we saw during the boom.... and 75% or more of those folks will wash out promptly due to going busto thanks to the horrible ratio of Very good to excellent players vs Dead money out there now. RIP Online Poker.

kind of agree.

there was just something really special about those few years when moneymaker won and online poker was new and fresh and donkeys were drawing like crazy.

Man.. i made a lot of money between '04 and '08 in tournaments.... only bad beats kept me from making more.

i'd love to play again though.

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

I mean.. words with friends.. but for real money.. #mansion

 

[lod01]

lod01, on 01 May 2013 - 15:57, said:1. How does the state of Nevada override the fed law of banning internet poker in the US.

I'm not aware of such a law. What is it?

There is no federal law banning internet poker.

EDIT: This is what kills me about the law in my state (WA). The commerce clause of the Constitution is clear that states don't have the authority to regulate/limit interstate and international commerce. This is a power reserved by the federal government.

I thought they did something with the wire transfer law or something. Or prohibited banks from dealing with poker sites, which had a chilling effect in the US. Memory is hazy though.

That's what I meant.

 

[Zegras11]

Couldn't find it in the article but 2 questions.

1. How does the state of Nevada override the fed law of banning internet poker in the US.

2. How do they 'collect taxes' on it? The rake? if so, that rake just got pretty expensive, right?

There is no federal law that bans internet poker

 

[17seconds]

TxBuckeye, on 01 May 2013 - 13:05, said:

Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:What's the rake structure like? I anticipate something draconian (and not worth it).

The story didn't cover it, but isn't there a poker playing FFA guy in Vegas that plays professionally, Asani Fisher I think is the name? He may be able to fill in details if he stops by.

last I heard, Assani moved to Mexico so he could play online with no restrictions.

I just can't imagine wanting to play poker that bad. Even if you get rich doing it.

Makes perfect sense if it's your profession and you don't want to deal full-time with the variance and degenerate riff raff you run into playing live poker.

 

[lod01]

Couldn't find it in the article but 2 questions.

1. How does the state of Nevada override the fed law of banning internet poker in the US.

2. How do they 'collect taxes' on it? The rake? if so, that rake just got pretty expensive, right?

There is no federal law that bans internet poker

I meant this: The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006.

Can you transfer funds now to gamble on-line in Nevada and bypass the above?

 

[belljr]

If things work as planned, coming soon to NJ next. Poker Stars is trying to buy the Atlantic club as their NJ base of operations and open up an online presence as well. The legislature is ok with it too, which is usually the sticking point.

please oh please

 

[NewlyRetired]

Couldn't find it in the article but 2 questions.

1. How does the state of Nevada override the fed law of banning internet poker in the US.

2. How do they 'collect taxes' on it? The rake? if so, that rake just got pretty expensive, right?

There is no federal law that bans internet poker

I meant this: The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006.Can you transfer funds now to gamble on-line in Nevada and bypass the above?

http://www.bluff.com/magazine/regulation-the-dawn-of-online-pokers-third-age-2143/

Sign on the dotted line

The process to set up an online poker account in regulated Nevada will involve a few extra steps. In the past, an email address and a first deposit allowed players to start playing within moments of creating their accounts. Under Nevada regulations, all information submitted as part of a new player registration will have to be verified. That includes a real name, a current address, the player’s date of birth, a social security number (if resident in the U.S.) and of course an email address.

Under the Nevada system, new players will only be able to play to a limited degree while the online poker operator verifies all the information the player has provided. That verification process can take upward of 30 days, during which time the player is limited to $5,000 in aggregate deposits and cannot withdraw at all. Once the player’s bona fides have been verified, the deposit and withdrawal limits are lifted.

That may seem extreme, especially for high-limit players, but there’s some good news to go along with it. Payment processing will be much easier. The Nevada regulations allow for deposits to be made by credit or debit card, in addition to electronic bank transfer and good, old-fashioned cash. That’s right, you’ll be able to deposit to and withdraw from your online poker account at the casino, in effect acting as if the casino is a bank. Imagine a solid night at the ARIA poker tables playing $5-$10 NLHE. You book a $4,000 win and want to move that money online. In Nevada, it will be as easy as handing your M Life card and ID to the casino cashier along with the pile of cash.

Money money money

The biggest change to online poker under the Nevada regulations is that player-toplayer fund transfers are explicitly prohibited. No more paying off bets by poker transfer; no more staking players from an online bankroll; no more swapping percentages in a tournament and then settling immediately afterward. All of that action will have to move off of poker sites under the Nevada regulations (and under other state regulations as well, if Nevada serves as the model that many believe it will). Transaction costs will thus be higher for and the likelihood of government reporting of high-dollar-amount transactions will be increased.

Remember, a big part of why online poker wound up in a tight spot in the U.S. is because the industry created a shadow banking system. Players were allowed to transfer unlimited amounts of money to each other with little oversight by the sites and zero by the government. That didn’t sit well with the DOJ’s financial crime watchdogs.

In the U.S., anyone who receives a cash transfer greater than $10,000 while conducting their trade or business is supposed to report that transfer to the Internal Revenue Service within 15 days. If the transfer is received by wire to a bank account, then the financial institution that receives the wire must file a similar report with the Treasury Department. Either way, transactions of more than $10,000 are reported to the government. These reports facilitate law enforcement against, among other things, tax evasion, money launderers and other criminal enterprises that deal in high volumes of cash.

By allowing player-to-player transfers, poker sites created an end-run around those regulations. Suddenly hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of dollars were flying around the country and the world without being reported. The potential for abuse is incredibly high; the only way to effectively regulate the practice is to prohibit it outright.

There is some salve for this wound, however. Since the Nevada system provides for cash deposits and withdrawals at the casino cage, players can make some transfers themselves if both are present in Nevada. In that sense the casino acts very much like a bank and the cash can then change hands directly between the two players.

 

[NewlyRetired]

2. How do they 'collect taxes' on it? The rake? if so, that rake just got pretty expensive, right?

http://www.bluff.com/magazine/regulation-the-dawn-of-online-pokers-third-age-2143/

The price of freedom

Taxation is, unfortunately, a necessary evil that comes with regulation. If players want assurances that their games are fair and that the money in their online poker accounts is secure, they have to pay for those privileges in the form of taxes — and so do the operators.

One of the biggest sticking points in the successful implementation of regulated poker in Europe has been how the game is taxed. French online poker operators have complained that the tax burden is onerous and threatening to kill the industry in France before it really gets off the ground.

Nevada looks to nip that problem in the bud by applying the same structure to online gaming that it currently uses for B&M gaming. Online poker operators will be subject to a 6 3/4 percent monthly licensing fee as well as standard corporate taxation of their profits. And given that operators will be required to maintain detailed win-loss, deposit and withdrawal records on their players (for five years in all cases), it’s safe to say that if you’re an online poker winner in Nevada after regulated online poker goes live, the government will know about it. You’ll need to be sure to include those winnings on your own tax returns.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

1) this only works when its a national/global game.

2) Online poker will never be close to what it was in the party poker days... the majority of casual players washed out and have lost interest as the fad is "dead".

The game only truly thrives when there is a lot of fresh blood coming in. When it does FINALLY go live nationally, you'll see an initial rush of players maybe equivalent to 20-25% of what we saw during the boom.... and 75% or more of those folks will wash out promptly due to going busto thanks to the horrible ratio of Very good to excellent players vs Dead money out there now. RIP Online Poker.

Well that settles it

 

[mquinnjr]

1) this only works when its a national/global game.

2) Online poker will never be close to what it was in the party poker days... the majority of casual players washed out and have lost interest as the fad is "dead".

The game only truly thrives when there is a lot of fresh blood coming in. When it does FINALLY go live nationally, you'll see an initial rush of players maybe equivalent to 20-25% of what we saw during the boom.... and 75% or more of those folks will wash out promptly due to going busto thanks to the horrible ratio of Very good to excellent players vs Dead money out there now. RIP Online Poker.

kind of agree.

there was just something really special about those few years when moneymaker won and online poker was new and fresh and donkeys were drawing like crazy.

Man.. i made a lot of money between '04 and '08 in tournaments.... only bad beats kept me from making more.

i'd love to play again though.

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

I mean.. words with friends.. but for real money.. #mansion

One of my buddies during the heyday of PartyPoker started with a few hundred dollars and bought a Mustang for cash when we graduated college, just an unbelievable time.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

TxBuckeye, on 01 May 2013 - 13:05, said:

Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:Sand, on 01 May 2013 - 13:01, said:What's the rake structure like? I anticipate something draconian (and not worth it).

The story didn't cover it, but isn't there a poker playing FFA guy in Vegas that plays professionally, Asani Fisher I think is the name? He may be able to fill in details if he stops by.

last I heard, Assani moved to Mexico so he could play online with no restrictions.

I just can't imagine wanting to play poker that bad. Even if you get rich doing it.

Yeah, living in Mexico along the coast in Baja where dollars are worth more, you can make a living and never have to answer to a boss, just sounds like horrible life.

 

[Sand]

I mean.. words with friends.. but for real money.. #mansion

One of my buddies during the heyday of PartyPoker started with a few hundred dollars and bought a Mustang for cash when we graduated college, just an unbelievable time.

No doubt - between Mansion, online poker, and other stuff like ValueAmerica I've made enough to have in place a reasonable portion of retirement money stashed away.

Of course if I was in my tail chasing days I probably would have done something dumb like buy a cool car for cash, too.

 

[[icon]]

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

BINGO... unfortunately apple would block this so it would be an android only thing. That could take some of the wind out of the sails of it... but also push a lot of people TO android.

 

[TxBuckeye]

So, peering in to the crystal ball, how long before other states start jumping in? Do folks think other states will follow suite relatively quickly, like a dam burst? Or do you think they'll sit back for a year or more to wait and see how it really works out for Nevada?

 

[NCCommish]

So, peering in to the crystal ball, how long before other states start jumping in? Do folks think other states will follow suite relatively quickly, like a dam burst? Or do you think they'll sit back for a year or more to wait and see how it really works out for Nevada?

I think there are a couple of states that want in bad. Like NJ. After the early adopters get in and demonstrate the new cash flow a lot of people will want in. I don't think the average American has anything against poker so I don't see a sustained political backlash to getting it set up in most states.

 

[NewlyRetired]

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

BINGO... unfortunately apple would block this so it would be an android only thing. That could take some of the wind out of the sails of it... but also push a lot of people TO android.

What is Apple's policy on this? Why would they block this but allow a million other apps/games designed to empty your wallet?

 

[Brony]

So, peering in to the crystal ball, how long before other states start jumping in? Do folks think other states will follow suite relatively quickly, like a dam burst? Or do you think they'll sit back for a year or more to wait and see how it really works out for Nevada?

Illinois is pursuing more gambling, but in order for the bill to progress anywhere, they explicitly removed internet gambling. I'm just glad I live somewhere where our leaders are thinking of the children.

 

[Nipsey]

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

BINGO... unfortunately apple would block this so it would be an android only thing. That could take some of the wind out of the sails of it... but also push a lot of people TO android.

Poker on mobile devices has always been a no go. Collusion city.

 

[lod01]

So, peering in to the crystal ball, how long before other states start jumping in? Do folks think other states will follow suite relatively quickly, like a dam burst? Or do you think they'll sit back for a year or more to wait and see how it really works out for Nevada?

Illinois is pursuing more gambling, but in order for the bill to progress anywhere, they explicitly removed internet gambling. I'm just glad I live somewhere where our leaders are thinking of the children.

With that state's $ problems, I would have thought they would be at the front of the line.

 

[NewlyRetired]

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

BINGO... unfortunately apple would block this so it would be an android only thing. That could take some of the wind out of the sails of it... but also push a lot of people TO android.

Poker on mobile devices has always been a no go. Collusion city.

Why is it more collusion than laptops or netbooks?

 

[Nipsey]

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

BINGO... unfortunately apple would block this so it would be an android only thing. That could take some of the wind out of the sails of it... but also push a lot of people TO android.

Poker on mobile devices has always been a no go. Collusion city.

Why is it more collusion than laptops or netbooks?

Dunno. I just know when asked about mobile apps, sites like stars and full tilt sited collusion as to why they didn't have any.

 

[NewlyRetired]

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

BINGO... unfortunately apple would block this so it would be an android only thing. That could take some of the wind out of the sails of it... but also push a lot of people TO android.

Poker on mobile devices has always been a no go. Collusion city.

Why is it more collusion than laptops or netbooks?

Dunno. I just know when asked about mobile apps, sites like stars and full tilt sited collusion as to why they didn't have any.

Ok cool. Maybe its the the massive proliferation of mobile devices compared to laptops. Speaking if mobile devices, while there is no mobile app for Ultimate Poker, players who want to play have to plug in their mobile phone to their computer so that Ultimate Poker can determine their location.

 

[lod01]

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

BINGO... unfortunately apple would block this so it would be an android only thing. That could take some of the wind out of the sails of it... but also push a lot of people TO android.

Poker on mobile devices has always been a no go. Collusion city.

Why is it more collusion than laptops or netbooks?

I would guess that it's because with mobile devices, everyone has a different IP address. If it is a laptop or netbook with wireless card, it is also a mobile device. But laptops connecting to a hotspot all get the same IP I believe. You could have everyone congregate at a house with mobile devices and verizon aircard connections and each one has a different IP. Use laptops with connection to the wifi at that house and everyone has the same IP.

If everyone has the same IP and different screen names, I would think it will be flagged at the poker site.

 

[17seconds]

the only thing i could see being a boom for poker would be that there could be mobile apps that they didn't have before.. and i could see a whole lot of donkeys playing on smoke breaks, dump breaks, in between classes.

BINGO... unfortunately apple would block this so it would be an android only thing. That could take some of the wind out of the sails of it... but also push a lot of people TO android.

Poker on mobile devices has always been a no go. Collusion city.

Why is it more collusion than laptops or netbooks?

Dunno. I just know when asked about mobile apps, sites like stars and full tilt sited collusion as to why they didn't have any.

Stars has a mobile app - play money only. I think I heard it's a test platform to having real money app, so they are trying to figure out how to do it.