Patriots looking for a 1st and 4th for Garoppolo (1 Viewer)

[Bracie Smathers]

Not sure if you read the article but the writer states ... "In that sense, it actually works to New England's benefit that Garoppolo has just six quarters as a starter to over-analyze. If there are warts, defenses had yet to expose them."

... but looks like you've spotted the warts ... or tumors as you describe them. Probably worth a 6th round pick?

Curious as to which rookie or free agent QB you suggest a CLE, CHI, SF to go after instead of Garopollo. Which one will be your "franchise QB"? Romo? Rookie?




 

I read the article and it came to the same faulty conclusion that you have, that teams are so desperate for a QB, ANY QB that they will pay a premium for a guy who isn't a franchise QB.  

I still haven't heard a case that Jimmy Garappolo is a franchise QB but I've heard enough of the drivel that teams are so desperate they will pay a premium for him based on their desperation.

The Browns could have taken a QB last year but decided to trade down, twice!  They didn't pay a premium but reaped a premium.  They have never traded a first round pick for a veteran QB in the history of the Cleveland Browns but every year we hear how terribly desperate the Browns are and how they are interested in every QB and will pay a premium for them based on their desperation.  

I posted what I saw of Jimmy G, you didn't bother to make a case for him but attacked me as a Patriot basher and tried to make fun of my assessment, OK.  Where is your case that Jimmy Garoppolo is a franchise QB?  Honestly, sell me on the questions I raised about his ability to get past the first read, his deep ball accuracy issues, how he is affected after taking a hard shot because making pre-snap reads and hitting slants is great as is having nice footwork and the ability to slide up in the pocket and keep his eyes trained downfield but if he can't pull the trigger on his second read unless his WR is wide open and can't throw open WRs or has deep-ball accuracy issues and folds after taking a sold shot then he isn't a 'franchise' NFL QB.  Sorry, but I don't see it.

 

[Anarchy99]

I read the article and it came to the same faulty conclusion that you have, that teams are so desperate for a QB, ANY QB that they will pay a premium for a guy who isn't a franchise QB.  

I still haven't heard a case that Jimmy Garappolo is a franchise QB but I've heard enough of the drivel that teams are so desperate they will pay a premium for him based on their desperation.

The Browns could have taken a QB last year but decided to trade down, twice!  They didn't pay a premium but reaped a premium.  They have never traded a first round pick for a veteran QB in the history of the Cleveland Browns but every year we hear how terribly desperate the Browns are and how they are interested in every QB and will pay a premium for them based on their desperation.  

I posted what I saw of Jimmy G, you didn't bother to make a case for him but attacked me as a Patriot basher and tried to make fun of my assessment, OK.  Where is your case that Jimmy Garoppolo is a franchise QB?  Honestly, sell me on the questions I raised about his ability to get past the first read, his deep ball accuracy issues, how he is affected after taking a hard shot because making pre-snap reads and hitting slants is great as is having nice footwork and the ability to slide up in the pocket and keep his eyes trained downfield but if he can't pull the trigger on his second read unless his WR is wide open and can't throw open WRs or has deep-ball accuracy issues and folds after taking a sold shot then he isn't a 'franchise' NFL QB.  Sorry, but I don't see it.

How could anyone at this point possibly know with any semblance of certainty if JG is or is not a franchise quarterback? The same could be said of any player coming out of college. Other talent evaluators and NFL teams have looked at him both in college and as a pro and have seen enough to think that he may currently be (or can turn into) a decent QB.

The market is the market.There are multiple teams that need immediate QB help, and they all will get a QB from somewhere, whether that be from the draft, free agency, promotion from within, or trade. As stated in other posts, teams are dead in the water without a capable quarterback.

 

[Bossman]

I read the article and it came to the same faulty conclusion that you have, that teams are so desperate for a QB, ANY QB that they will pay a premium for a guy who isn't a franchise QB.  

I still haven't heard a case that Jimmy Garappolo is a franchise QB but I've heard enough of the drivel that teams are so desperate they will pay a premium for him based on their desperation.

The Browns could have taken a QB last year but decided to trade down, twice!  They didn't pay a premium but reaped a premium.  They have never traded a first round pick for a veteran QB in the history of the Cleveland Browns but every year we hear how terribly desperate the Browns are and how they are interested in every QB and will pay a premium for them based on their desperation.  

I posted what I saw of Jimmy G, you didn't bother to make a case for him but attacked me as a Patriot basher and tried to make fun of my assessment, OK.  Where is your case that Jimmy Garoppolo is a franchise QB?  Honestly, sell me on the questions I raised about his ability to get past the first read, his deep ball accuracy issues, how he is affected after taking a hard shot because making pre-snap reads and hitting slants is great as is having nice footwork and the ability to slide up in the pocket and keep his eyes trained downfield but if he can't pull the trigger on his second read unless his WR is wide open and can't throw open WRs or has deep-ball accuracy issues and folds after taking a sold shot then he isn't a 'franchise' NFL QB.  Sorry, but I don't see it.

If Garoppolo was a LOCK franchise QB he certainly would be worth more than a 1st rd pick. Sam Bradford fetched a 1st and 4th without much upside.

Fact is, there is no lock franchise QB available (that we know of) via trade, free agency, or rookie this year. These QB needy teams need to take a shot with someone.

I ask again, who do you feel is a better option of available QB's than Garoppolo? Who has a better chance of becoming your franchise QB ... Romo? Trubisky? You own the 1.01 and the 1.12 .... who you gonna run with? How about CHI and SF? Hard to argue that Garappolo is not the best option.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

How could anyone at this point possibly know with any semblance of certainty if JG is or is not a franchise quarterback? The same could be said of any player coming out of college. Other talent evaluators and NFL teams have looked at him both in college and as a pro and have seen enough to think that he may currently be (or can turn into) a decent QB.

The market is the market.There are multiple teams that need immediate QB help, and they all will get a QB from somewhere, whether that be from the draft, free agency, promotion from within, or trade. As stated in other posts, teams are dead in the water without a capable quarterback.




 




 




 

Certainty?  Why pay a premium for an uncertain outcome?

Demand isn't created in a vacuum.  SUPPLY creates demand.  

Supply is supply.

There is a limited supply of NFL franchise quarterbacks.  The Patriots have one proven 40-year-old franchise QB.  They would not trade away a much younger franchise QB or trade a guy if they suspected he would turn into a franchise quarterback.

I have every right to question that Jimmy G is a 'franchise QB' because I don't see it and doubt he is due to the astronomical odds the Patriots have two franchise QBs and if they do, why on earth would they even consider trading him?.

 

[Bossman]

Certainty?  Why pay a premium for an uncertain outcome?

Demand isn't created in a vacuum.  SUPPLY creates demand.  

Supply is supply.

There is a limited supply of NFL franchise quarterbacks.  The Patriots have one proven 40-year-old franchise QB.  They would not trade away a much younger franchise QB or trade a guy if they suspected he would turn into a franchise quarterback.

I have every right to question that Jimmy G is a 'franchise QB' because I don't see it and doubt he is due to the astronomical odds the Patriots have two franchise QBs and if they do, why on earth would they even consider trading him?.

because you can't start 2 QB's

 

[Bracie Smathers]

because you can't start 2 QB's

That makes the case for Jimmy G as a franchise QB?  

They have two franchise QBs but he can't start so they are going to trade away a much younger guy and go with Jacoby Brissett because, um they must have THREE franchise QBs and can afford to trade away the guy they will have to pay if they decide to keep him.  

 

[Dr. Octopus]

That makes the case for Jimmy G as a franchise QB?  

They have two franchise QBs but he can't start so they are going to trade away a much younger guy and go with Jacoby Brissett because, um they must have THREE franchise QBs and can afford to trade away the guy they will have to pay if they decide to keep him.  

I'm pretty sure they're going with Brady.

 

[Anarchy99]

So the Pats should bench a HOFer that has won 2 of the last 3 Super Bowls  and has been a Top 3 QB over the past few years to play Jimmy G instead? Because they won't do that means JG is not a potential franchise QB?

At this point, I am pretty sure there are plenty of teams that would fall in love with a QB that was even LEAGUE AVERAGE let alone a future HOFer or an All Pro. JUst curious how many QBs in the league currently should be considered a "franchise QB" and what the criteria are to be labelled as such.

 

[Interseptopus]

If Garoppolo was a LOCK franchise QB he certainly would be worth more than a 1st rd pick. Sam Bradford fetched a 1st and 4th without much upside.

Fact is, there is no lock franchise QB available (that we know of) via trade, free agency, or rookie this year. These QB needy teams need to take a shot with someone.

I ask again, who do you feel is a better option of available QB's than Garoppolo? Who has a better chance of becoming your franchise QB ... Romo? Trubisky? You own the 1.01 and the 1.12 .... who you gonna run with? How about CHI and SF? Hard to argue that Garappolo is not the best option.

How IS JimmyG the best option? What case is there to be made?  

I think you make a good point but you fail to give any reason why you think JimmyG is more worthy than Trubisky. Or even Glennon. I'd argue Glennon has more upside than JimmyG and he comes without giving up any draft picks. 

What's to say that JimmyG is better than Bradford? I don't really see much of a case for this. Just because NE says so? Because NE has had so much success turning Brady's backups into Franchise QBs throughout the league? 

You say who would be better at becoming a franchise QB. The rookie QBs are just as likely to turn out to be a franchise QB than JimmyG... I really don't see any evidence to support your claim. 

If I hold 1.01 and 1.12, my team is there for a reason and likely needs more than just 1 or 2 players. No one player is going to turn that around instantly. I would use those 1st round picks on defense and use 2.01 on a QB. Or 1.12 on Trubisky and sit him for a year. Trading 1.12 for JimmyG gives me an inexperienced QB that I will likely have to pay a big salary with a largely unproven record. It also means that I have 2-3 years LESS for development and more pressure to "win now" or at least within the nexdt 2-3 years. Do you think Cleveland is a QB and 2-3 years away from a superbowl? I sure don't. Draft a rookie, develop him, and build the team around him in the meantime and maybe in 3-4 seasons you have the makings of a playoff caliber team. And if not, you are only invested with a rookie contract and you can move on or then make a trade for a veteran QB to put you over the top. 

The only QB hungry team that would be in a scenario where it would be devastating to start over at QB wth a rookie would be Houston. JimmyG to Houston makes the most sense of anything because they have nothing to lose. 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I'm pretty sure they're going with Brady.

Forever?

Obviously, Brissett would turn into the heir apparent over Jimmy G if they trade him away.  

Old man time has never been beaten.  Brady will be replaced and the Pats would never trade away a guy they felt was a younger franchise QB and go with Brissett behind Brady, i.e., as the heir apparent.  I didn't think I had to spell it out but I guess I have to.  Do you get it now or do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND?

 

[Interseptopus]

So the Pats should bench a HOFer that has won 2 of the last 3 Super Bowls  and has been a Top 3 QB over the past few years to play Jimmy G instead? Because they won't do that means JG is not a potential franchise QB?

At this point, I am pretty sure there are plenty of teams that would fall in love with a QB that was even LEAGUE AVERAGE let alone a future HOFer or an All Pro. JUst curious how many QBs in the league currently should be considered a "franchise QB" and what the criteria are to be labelled as such.

What has he done to warrant consideration as a franchise QB though? NE is certainly asking a franchise price. I understand it only takes 1 team to fall in love with a player to increase his value. But I just don't see how NE and their fans put such a price on Jimmy. Just because he backs up Brady? Cassell filled in great in NE and he sure had a great career as a starter. Wouldn't you think that'd make people wonder more about it being a system making QBs and not the other way around? 

 

[Interseptopus]

Forever?

Obviously, Brissett would turn into the heir apparent over Jimmy G if they trade him away.  

Old man time has never been beaten.  Brady will be replaced and the Pats would never trade away a guy they felt was a younger franchise QB and go with Brissett behind Brady, i.e., as the heir apparent.  I didn't think I had to spell it out but I guess I have to.  Do you get it now or do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND?

I get it. But pats fans are too busy to really sit back and look at it. I think most teams see it too. 

 

This is a genius move by NE... if they let JimmyG play out his contract they will get a high compensation pick. So why not ask for more than what you'll get in compensation to try and squeeze more out of him? He's obviously not in their long term plans. They either let him walk next year or trade him this year. If they really thought that highly of him they'd be looking to extend him now even if Brady plays another 3 years (which, if that happens it'll be from the sideline or playing as a fraction of himself). Franchise QBs don't come around often. Just ask Chicago

 

[Anarchy99]

Forever?

Obviously, Brissett would turn into the heir apparent over Jimmy G if they trade him away.  

Old man time has never been beaten.  Brady will be replaced and the Pats would never trade away a guy they felt was a younger franchise QB and go with Brissett behind Brady, i.e., as the heir apparent.  I didn't think I had to spell it out but I guess I have to.  Do you get it now or do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND?

The Pats are embarking on contract extension talks with Brady. He is already signed for three years and they are said to be giving him a two year extension. If Brady plays that long (admittedly a big if), JG would have been a back up for 8 years. What QB wants to sit on the bench for 8 years??? Realistically, neither Garoppolo nor Brissett are the heir apparent to TB12 and that player could currently be in high school.

 

[Anarchy99]

I get it. But pats fans are too busy to really sit back and look at it. I think most teams see it too. 

 

This is a genius move by NE... if they let JimmyG play out his contract they will get a high compensation pick. So why not ask for more than what you'll get in compensation to try and squeeze more out of him? He's obviously not in their long term plans. They either let him walk next year or trade him this year. If they really thought that highly of him they'd be looking to extend him now even if Brady plays another 3 years. Franchise QBs don't come around often. Just ask Chicago

And it's being said teams are fighting among themselves to get to talk to the Pats about a potential trade for JG. The market is dictating the price, not NE. Multiple suitors will only serve to increase the cost to acquire JG. Feel free to suggest the rest of the NFL has no clue, but there are several teams in contact with NE about Garoppolo.

 

[Interseptopus]

The Pats are embarking on contract extension talks with Brady. He is already signed for three years and they are said to be giving him a two year extension. If Brady plays that long (admittedly a big if), JG would have been a back up for 8 years. What QB wants to sit on the bench for 8 years??? Realistically, neither Garoppolo nor Brissett are the heir apparent to TB12 and that player could currently be in high school.

Do you think it is smart for a franchise to pin their immediate future to the back of a 40 year old QB, regardless of how good he is/was and how many rings he has? With no apparent successor? 

 

[Interseptopus]

And it's being said teams are fighting among themselves to get to talk to the Pats about a potential trade for JG. The market is dictating the price, not NE. Multiple suitors will only serve to increase the cost to acquire JG. Feel free to suggest the rest of the NFL has no clue, but there are several teams in contact with NE about Garoppolo.

Like I said, it only takes 1 team. I think many teams would certainly give NE a call to see if they can get what looks like more than a backup QB on their team. As I said like 3 minutes ago, Houston automatically comes to mind and seems like a no brainer. Cleveland might be looking and seeing if they can give up a 2nd round pick. Depending on what QBs are taken round 1, JimmyG might be better than most QBs round 2. I don't know. I can't predict the draft, but it's possible. 

I think if any team gives up a top 15 pick for him in the draft they are making a huge mistake. That's one guy's opinion, not worth much. 

For me, I really hope Chicago gives up something ridiculous. Would set them back further

 

[Anarchy99]

Do you think it is smart for a franchise to pin their immediate future to the back of a 40 year old QB, regardless of how good he is/was and how many rings he has? With no apparent successor? 

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that BB knows what he is doing and has a sucession and transition plan to pass the reins from Brady to someone else. IMO, to suggest that the Pats have no idea what they are doing is ignoring a career filled with winning and success based on preparation and planning.

 

[Interseptopus]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that BB knows what he is doing and has a sucession and transition plan to pass the reins from Brady to someone else. IMO, to suggest that the Pats have no idea what they are doing is ignoring a career filled with winning and success based on preparation and planning.

I figured that's what you'd say. Okay. Noted. Link to quote copied

 

[Anarchy99]

So which is worse for a coach and a team? Giving up multiple first, seconds, and thirds to move up in the draft to take a QB that bombs . . . or trading a first round pick for Garoppolo and he bombs? Either way the coach would lose his job, but wouldn't giving a wheelbarrow be far more damaging?

 

[Anarchy99]

I figured that's what you'd say. Okay. Noted. Link to quote copied

NE can and likely will draft another QB at some point. It's not like their only options are Garoppolo and Brissett.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Hard to believe this is still an argument after 19 pages.

A team with a history of overselling backup QBs who briefly look good in their QB friendly system is looking to sell a QB who briefly looked good in their QB friendly system despite having a 40 year old starter and no other real appealing QB of the future behind him.  These dots aren't exactly difficult to connect.

 

[Anarchy99]

Hard to believe this is still an argument after 19 pages.

A team with a history of overselling backup QBs who briefly look good in their QB friendly system is looking to sell a QB who briefly looked good in their QB friendly system despite having a 40 year old starter and no other real appealing QB of the future behind him.  These dots aren't exactly difficult to connect.

Especially when people are connecting the wrong dots. Most of the QB's the Patriots drafted were later round picks that were projects with little intent of having them be much more than a back up. Garoppolo is the only QB they have drafted in the first or second round in the BB era. People can try to compare Cassel (a 7th round pick that didn't start in college) to Garoppolo all they want, but the two players are nowhere near similar.

That doesn't mean JG is destined for greatness, only that NE hasn't invested much draft-wise into QB's.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Most of the QB's the Patriots drafted were later round picks that were projects with little intent of having them be much more than a back up. Garoppolo is the only QB they have drafted in the first or second round in the BB era.

C'mon now.  JG was picked at the end of the second round (62nd pick overall), and they've drafted 3 QBs in the 3rd round.  Not a lot of difference there.

But I'm not sure the point makes much sense anyway.  So unlike these other guys they drafted JG to be more than a backup and trade fodder, yet now they're looking to deal him as nothing more than trade fodder who was their backup for a few years?  And that's supposed to be a complement to his ability, that he's not the future NE starter they'd hoped they were getting?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Forever?

Obviously, Brissett would turn into the heir apparent over Jimmy G if they trade him away.  

Old man time has never been beaten.  Brady will be replaced and the Pats would never trade away a guy they felt was a younger franchise QB and go with Brissett behind Brady, i.e., as the heir apparent.  I didn't think I had to spell it out but I guess I have to.  Do you get it now or do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND?

You understand that there's a salary cap in the NFL and Jimmy G is free agent after the 2017 season and QBs get paid large salaries so Jimmy G will want to get a large salary and the Pat have Tom Brady who gets paid real well and Brady by all accounts will still be playing in 2018 and getting paid well.... Do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND that (it's only been discussed about 100 times in this thread after all)?

 

[nightmare]

The best thing about this thread is none of came from N.E or any NFL team-just some guys speculation.

 

[Anarchy99]

C'mon now.  JG was picked at the end of the second round (62nd pick overall), and they've drafted 3 QBs in the 3rd round.  Not a lot of difference there.

But I'm not sure the point makes much sense anyway.  So unlike these other guys they drafted JG to be more than a backup and trade fodder, yet now they're looking to deal him as nothing more than trade fodder who was their backup for a few years?  And that's supposed to be a complement to his ability, that he's not the future NE starter they'd hoped they were getting?

Realistically, most long term starting QBs are first round draft picks. There have been 36 QB's drafted since 2000 that have stared 50 or more games. And 23 of them were first round picks. Four were 2nd rounders and three were 3rd rounders. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Hard to believe this is still an argument after 19 pages.

A team with a history of overselling backup QBs who briefly look good in their QB friendly system is looking to sell a QB who briefly looked good in their QB friendly system despite having a 40 year old starter and no other real appealing QB of the future behind him.  These dots aren't exactly difficult to connect.

What history is that, really?

Matt Cassell was a seventh round pick who was traded with Mike Vrabel for a second round pick and had moderate, albeit limited, success (a Pro Bowl and playoff appearance).

Ryan Mallet was a third round pick that was traded for a seventh round pick.

Am I missing anything?

 

[Boston]

You understand that there's a salary cap in the NFL and Jimmy G is free agent after the 2017 season and QBs get paid large salaries so Jimmy G will want to get a large salary and the Pat have Tom Brady who gets paid real well and Brady by all accounts will still be playing in 2018 and getting paid well.... Do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND that (it's only been discussed about 100 times in this thread after all)?

Agreed...that some people are advocating having both Brady and Jimmy G signed for big money at the same time and eating up about 35-40 million of salary cap space is one of the more head-scratching things I have seen written about the Pats...one of the reasons the Pats are currently 60+ million under the Cap coming off of a Championship is because they watch every dollar...they hardly ever over-pay anyone and if they do they are not lasting long...to watch BB operate the past 16 years and think he would sign their back-up QB (no matter who it is) to legit starter money goes against every single thing I have ever seen him do...it's not going to happen...I just don't understand what is so difficult to understand that Brady is playing at least three more years and regardless of how good Jimmy G is his contract status does not jive with becoming the next QB of the Patriots...it's that simple (and too bad because I think most Pats like him and would be good with him getting a shot)...if he stays in 2017 it is because they are not getting good trade value and you might as well keep him as insurance and get the comp pick...this is a business decision and it just doesn't make sense to keep him if you can get a #1 or a #2 and something else that BB can turn into the next  haul of Trey Flowers, Logan Ryan or Malcom Mitchell...this is how the Pats operate and I don't see it changing for Garropolo...

 

[Interseptopus]

NE can and likely will draft another QB at some point. It's not like their only options are Garoppolo and Brissett.

I agree. However, I am just getting you on record that you are putting your full faith in BB to go into next season with a 40 year old Brady, inexperienced Brissett and likely a draft pick versus having some experienced depth behind your aged QB. We can revisit that posting later this season if need be

I know if it were Aaron Rodgers in the exact same scenario with the exact same history of success, I'd think my GM was absolutely crazy to trade away their only insurance at another good season for a draft pick, which according to you is likely to be a bust anyways

 

[Road Warriors]

I agree. However, I am just getting you on record that you are putting your full faith in BB to go into next season with a 40 year old Brady, inexperienced Brissett and likely a draft pick versus having some experienced depth behind your aged QB. We can revisit that posting later this season if need be

I know if it were Aaron Rodgers in the exact same scenario with the exact same history of success, I'd think my GM was absolutely crazy to trade away their only insurance at another good season for a draft pick, which according to you is likely to be a bust anyways

I don't know...  The last time the Patriots went with a second year guy as a backup and let a veteran insurance policy walk was 2001.  Seemed to work out pretty well back then.

I think the Patriots like Brissett better than many here do.  I also think that absent a salary cap, the Patriots would absolutely be holding Jimmy G rather than trading him at this point.  From what I've seen in practice reports, preseason play and limited regular season games this year, I think JG will be a good NFL quarterback, and with the right surrounding cast, can be a playoff caliber QB in this league.  

However, although Brady will be 40 before his next start, and as mentioned several times, Father Time is still undefeated, I haven't seen any sign of physical breakdown in Brady at all.  Is it unreasonable to see his conditioning and fitness level and assume he is playing as if he is closer to 35 than 40.  And to assume a top tier player in his condition, who both takes care of himself on and off the field, playing the position that has the most protections in the game, can continue to thrive for a few more years doesn't seem like a stretch.

Assume Brady was 35 instead of 40.  Would you be arguing so strongly that the Patriots don't think JG is a franchise guy because they are going with the older guy?  

 

[Anarchy99]

I agree. However, I am just getting you on record that you are putting your full faith in BB to go into next season with a 40 year old Brady, inexperienced Brissett and likely a draft pick versus having some experienced depth behind your aged QB. We can revisit that posting later this season if need be

I know if it were Aaron Rodgers in the exact same scenario with the exact same history of success, I'd think my GM was absolutely crazy to trade away their only insurance at another good season for a draft pick, which according to you is likely to be a bust anyways

You could put me on record for whatever you want. I am just suggesting what the Patriots may feel about the situation and am trying to figure out what they will do. 

If JG didn't light up Miami for a half, this thread would have died out long ago. 

IMO, JG is probably a Top 8-10 QB playing in NE. Probably around QB 15 on another team. 

Brissett if healthy might be a Top 12-15 QB for the Pats if forced to play. IMO, a decent return for JG probably makes more sense than just keeping him as insurance. 

 

[Bossman]

Hard to read this and not believe Pats will not come away with a 1st for Garopollo:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000785384/article/garoppolo-trade-could-be-perfect-storm-for-patriots

.

All the Pats haters can talk about how he's not worth it ..... but this article perfectly explains WHY he is worth it, why it makes sense for both teams involved, and why it will happen.

As far as making a case for Garoppolo, I thought the article did a really good job of that.  People either didn't read it or did not comprehend.

from the article:

"In his first career start, Garoppolo went on the road in a nationally televised season opener and mowed down a consensus Super Bowl contender without the services of the NFL's premier tight end (Gronk was OUT). Two quarters into his second career start, Garoppolo was the best player on field before a shoulder injury knocked him out of the game."

When Shanahan was running the Browns offense in 2014, he ranked Garoppolo just behind Derek Carr as the second-best prospect in the draft.

"He was a very good thrower," Shanahan said last week, via the Plain Dealer. "Tough guy, kept his eyes down the field, could get rid of the ball fast. Really liked the person. ... I really thought he was a very intelligent, tough player with a good throwing motion."

That scouting report jibes with the game film from Garoppolo's two NFL starts.

Against the Cardinals and Dolphins, Garoppolo showed impressive command of the offense, poise versus the blitz, a lightning-quick release, light feet to slide in the pocket and escape pressure, excellent ball placement on tight-window throws and the arm talent to change speed on his passes. Even better, he worked through his progressions, kept his eyes up, spread the ball around to all of his targets and even showed the subtle veteran move of looking off a safety on a touchdown throw to Martellus Bennett.

People in here want to poo-poo on Garoppolo for some reason but the fact is he is more of a candidate to be a franchise QB than any of the rookies or other obtainable QB's in the league.

 

[Run It Up]

Do you think it is smart for a franchise to pin their immediate future to the back of a 40 year old QB, regardless of how good he is/was and how many rings he has? With no apparent successor? 

Apparent successor is relevant to immediate success how?

 

[Ghost Rider]

He didn't get hurt in college, so this is the first time he had a serious injury. One injury does not make him injury prone. 

I don't believe I said he was injury prone; I said the fact that he couldn't make it through a game and a half without getting hurt in his first real NFL play should be a red flag. 

 

[Anarchy99]

I don't believe I said he was injury prone; I said the fact that he couldn't make it through a game and a half without getting hurt in his first real NFL play should be a red flag. 

Red flag for what?

 

[msudaisy26]

Red flag for what?

That Jimmy G. isn't Iron Man.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Red flag for what?

Are you being obtuse? 

 

[kyoun1e]

Are you being obtuse? 

NFL players get hurt.

Like...all the time.

Unless he showed a tendency to get nicked up and miss games in college...and I haven't looked this up...I can't see a GM making this a top priority criteria in making their evaluation.

 

[kyoun1e]

I'd also add AZ to the list.

Palmer looks like he's coming back, but he's been on the fence, and the end is obviously near.

Arians got a good look at Jimmy G in week 1 as well.

 

[Anarchy99]

NFL players get hurt.

Like...all the time.

Unless he showed a tendency to get nicked up and miss games in college...and I haven't looked this up...I can't see a GM making this a top priority criteria in making their evaluation.

He started 45 games in college and didn't get hurt. He landed funny getting taken down in the pros and suddenly he is either an injury risk or soft?

Here's the thing. No matter what he did in a few games to start the season, any conclusions would be overblown. If he had played all four games and laid an egg against two playoff teams and decent opponents in ARI and BUF that wouldn't mean his future was bleak. If he didn't get hurt, that wouldn't mean he would play 200 games without an injury. 

The fact of the matter is nobody knows how JG will do as he really hasn't done much of anything yet. All 32 teams at this point are only guessing as to what he might do, but he certainly doesn't have much to show for on field NFL accomplishments. 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

You understand that there's a salary cap in the NFL and Jimmy G is free agent after the 2017 season and QBs get paid large salaries so Jimmy G will want to get a large salary and the Pat have Tom Brady who gets paid real well and Brady by all accounts will still be playing in 2018 and getting paid well.... Do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND that (it's only been discussed about 100 times in this thread after all)?

Please tell me about this thing called the salary cap.  You mean the Patriots want a bounty of draft picks to get rid of a guy they can't afford? 

They aren't overpaying any skill positions on offense outside of Gronk and Tom and they just got rid of two big contract extensions, Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins that were due on defense.  

If they thought he was a franchise QB they would make room.  

Name a young, healthy franchise QB that has been traded that had no off field issues just because a team didn't want to pay them?   

 

[Anarchy99]

Please tell me about this thing called the salary cap.  You mean the Patriots want a bounty of draft picks to get rid of a guy they can't afford? 

They aren't overpaying any skill positions on offense outside of Gronk and Tom and they just got rid of two big contract extensions, Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins that were due on defense.  

If they thought he was a franchise QB they would make room.  

Name a young, healthy franchise QB that has been traded that had no off field issues just because a team didn't want to pay them?   

Please define what you consider a "franchise QB"? How many of them are there in the league right now? If you man guys that are long-time starters for the same team, guys that probably qualify: Brady, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Dalton, Luck, Rivers, Manning, Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan, Brees, Newton, and Wilson. Other guys that could evolve into that are Mariotta, Carr, and Winston. For discussion's sake, say all of them are "franchise" QB's. That's 16 guys. That means 16 teams DON'T have a franchise QB.

Brady again has stated he wants to play into his mid-40's. That may or may not be realistic, but as long as he is playing that means other NE quarterbacks are not playing. Just because Garoppolo could be an NFL starter doesn't make him untradeable. And half the league would be thrilled to get decent QB play and not need to have a "franchise QB."

As for "overpaying" skill position players, Brady is getting paid $1 million in salary this year with a $14 million cap hit and Gronk is playing for $4.2 million with a $6.7 million cap hit (provided they don't get new deals).

 

[Interseptopus]

Assume Brady was 35 instead of 40.  Would you be arguing so strongly that the Patriots don't think JG is a franchise guy because they are going with the older guy?  

If Brady was 35 I would feel completely different about this. I firmly believe Brady will either be hurt, play poorly (by Brady standards). Sure, no signs have been pointing to this thus far. He has been very healthy. He's kind of a freak of nature (usually a red flag for me that something else is going on- let's not be naive people, practically everyone is on something). It's impossible to predict injury (most of the time), but I think one of three scenarios plays out:

1. NE is in need of a backup at some point in the next year or 2, and wishes they had JimmyG.
2. NE is in need of a backup at some point and are thrilled they don't have JimmyG because he's a bust.
3. NE doesn't need a backup over the next 2 years and they come out looking like geniuses. 

I am somewhere between 1 and 2 because I am not really sure JimmyG is the best available QB this offseason, nor do I think he will be probowl/franchise quality. Many people feel like NE will be in scenario 3. That's fine, they're entitled to their opinion. I just think, chances are, when you have someone who is getting into the age most players don't even make it to, having some kind of a backup plan is a good idea. If they like Brissett more, then either: they don't feel highly of Jimmy G, or as mentioned earlier in here by @Bracie Smathers, they just happen to have 3 franchise QBs on their roster. Which is more likely? Because if they felt highly of JimmyG they would try to resign him regardless. You don't let the guy you think can lead your team for 10 more seasons walk because you think your 40 year old QB can play another year or two. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Please tell me about this thing called the salary cap.  You mean the Patriots want a bounty of draft picks to get rid of a guy they can't afford? 

They aren't overpaying any skill positions on offense outside of Gronk and Tom and they just got rid of two big contract extensions, Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins that were due on defense.  

If they thought he was a franchise QB they would make room.  

Name a young, healthy franchise QB that has been traded that had no off field issues just because a team didn't want to pay them?   

The term "franchise QB" can mean many different things and is used in many different contexts. I do not think anyone knows whether or not Garropolo is a franchise QB in any context of the word, however. From what I've seen, I personally think he's a playoff caliber QB - but it would be up to any potential trade partner to decide what they think he can be.

I also have no idea what the Patriots think of his prospects, but I would guess in a vacuum they would love to keep him on their roster and have him be their starting QB after Brady retires (whenever that is). It's nice to sit around and say "if the Pats really believed in him then they wouldn't trade him away" or (even more absurdly) "if the Pats thought Garropolo was a franchise QB, they'd keep him and move on from Brady". Realistically Brady, while 40 years old, is coming off of a Super Bowl win where he threw for 466 yards and led his team to the biggest comeback win in Super Bowl history. Is any team going to kick that guy to the curb for a QB that they may believe is the real deal, but can't be sure? Would any fanbase be ok with that?

As far as your claims that they have the cap room to make it work. If you really do understand that cap, you would not be advocating for a team to tie up $40MM, or more, in cap space in any given season to the QB position. It's just not very realistic no matter how you want to spin it.

I hate the Pats as much as anyone person can "hate" a sports team, but they are dealing from a position of strength and I do think they will ultimately get a late first/early second and perhaps a little more. We will see.

 

[Interseptopus]

Please define what you consider a "franchise QB"? How many of them are there in the league right now? If you man guys that are long-time starters for the same team, guys that probably qualify: Brady, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Dalton, Luck, Rivers, Manning, Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan, Brees, Newton, and Wilson. Other guys that could evolve into that are Mariotta, Carr, and Winston. For discussion's sake, say all of them are "franchise" QB's. That's 16 guys. That means 16 teams DON'T have a franchise QB.

IMO teams that don't have a franchise QB:

BUF
NYJ
CLE
JAX (debatable) 
HOU
SF
CHI
 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

IMO teams that don't have a franchise QB:

BUF
NYJ
CLE
JAX (debatable) 
HOU
SF
CHI
 

If you are saying every other team has a franchise QB, then I'd feel pretty safe in calling Garopolo a potential "franchise QB". I may be wrong, and if I was a GM I'd spend much more time evaluating, but I liked him as a prospect coming into the league, and have liked what I've seen in preseason and this year in his two starts.

 

[Interseptopus]

If you are saying every other team has a franchise QB, then I'd feel pretty safe in calling Garopolo a potential "franchise QB". I may be wrong, and if I was a GM I'd spend much more time evaluating, but I liked him as a prospect coming into the league, and have liked what I've seen in preseason and this year in his two starts.

Which other team do think doesn't? Is Alex Smith not a franchise QB? He's been leading that franchise for a long time. 

My definition of a franchise QB is a QB that the team builds around. You don't see those teams drafting QBs or in the market for QBs every off season. They have thier QB and whether he's a probowl quality or not, they're going to try and build around him. 

I think JimmyG is going to fall along side with the likes of Matt Cassel, Matt Flynn, Osweiler, etc. a guy who was successful in a certain scheme/system and nothing else. 

 

[Anarchy99]

IMO teams that don't have a franchise QB:

BUF
NYJ
CLE
JAX (debatable) 
HOU
SF
CHI
 

So by extension, the following by your definition are franchise QB's:

MIA - Tannehill
KCC - Smith
DEN - Siemian / Lynch
DAL - Prescott
PHI - Wentz
WAS - Cousins
MIN - Bridgewater / Bradford
ARI - Palmer
LAR - Goff

Just looking to see who is on the list, not looking to debate them.

 

[Interseptopus]

So by extension, the following by your definition are franchise QB's:

MIA - Tannehill - he actually was having a great seaosn until he got hurt
KCC - Smith - his record with KC speaks for itself. He's been there for a long time, and they don't have a QB controversy. I wouldn't like him as my franchise QB
DEN - Siemian / Lynch - No, I would not put them on this list. This is one I forgot. They were hoping Lynch would be but he's a disaster so far, jury's still out. 
DAL - Prescott - LOL is there any debate on this
PHI - Wentz - Yup. He's going to be very good
WAS - Cousins - absolutely
MIN - Bridgewater / Bradford - Not a fan of either but MIN thinks they have a franchise QB in Bradford, so yeah. 
ARI - Palmer - Yep. He's been in AZ for.... how long? 
LAR - Goff - Jury's out but when you spend 1.01 on a QB you think he's a franchise guy and you don't go shopping for a QB the next season

Just looking to see who is on the list, not looking to debate them.

See my response. Yes, I do put most of those teams as already having a franchise QB, or thinking they have one. 

If you think a franchise QB is a probowl level, then yeah half the teams have one. 

According to Wikipedia, the definition of a franchise QB is:

In professional sports, a franchise player is an athlete who is not simply the best player on their team, but a player that the team can build their "franchise" (team) around for the foreseeable future. ... The term may be used alongside a particular position name to describe a player, such as a "franchise quarterback".

This is pretty much how I see a franchise QB. Perhaps a case could be made for JimmyG to be a player a team can build around, but I really don't think he is. My opinion, and probably an incorrect one, but I really think he does well on NE because NE has a good system that works great with QBs. 

 

[Anarchy99]

If Brady was 35 I would feel completely different about this. I firmly believe Brady will either be hurt, play poorly (by Brady standards). Sure, no signs have been pointing to this thus far. He has been very healthy. He's kind of a freak of nature (usually a red flag for me that something else is going on- let's not be naive people, practically everyone is on something). It's impossible to predict injury (most of the time), but I think one of three scenarios plays out:

1. NE is in need of a backup at some point in the next year or 2, and wishes they had JimmyG.
2. NE is in need of a backup at some point and are thrilled they don't have JimmyG because he's a bust.
3. NE doesn't need a backup over the next 2 years and they come out looking like geniuses. 

I am somewhere between 1 and 2 because I am not really sure JimmyG is the best available QB this offseason, nor do I think he will be probowl/franchise quality. Many people feel like NE will be in scenario 3. That's fine, they're entitled to their opinion. I just think, chances are, when you have someone who is getting into the age most players don't even make it to, havijhng some kind of a backup plan is a good idea. If they like Brissett more, then either: they don't feel highly of Jimmy G, or as mentioned earlier in here by @Bracie Smathers, they just happen to have 3 franchise QBs on their roster. Which is more likely? 

Comments by section:

1) All teams should have a capable back up. Some teams don't ever have capable starters. Cassel stepped in not having started in 8 years and won 11 games. Coaching and the system should give a NE back up ever opportunity to do reasonably well. Cassel was effectively a nobody and NE ranked 8th in points scored, 5th in yards from scrimmage, and 12th in passing yards. And that was with Brady playing in only one quarter of one game in that season. The assumption here is that A) Brissett isn't very good and 2) that NE doesn't acquire another QB over the next two seasons. (I happen to think Brissett would be at least league average and they will draft another QB).

2) You seem convinced NE will need a back up . . . but for how long? To play out a game? A week or two? Half the season? To take over permanently? Once JG is on another team, whatever he does really doesn't matter. Even if he becomes an All Pro player, he wouldn't have been one holding a clipboard while in NE.

3) Whether NE needs or doesn't need a backup doesn't change the fact that trading Garoppolo could still be what is best for the team . . . even if they DO NEED to use a backup. Similarly, Brady doesn't have to be a Top 3 QB for NE to continue to win a lot of games. The Pats won 3 titles with Brady being (take your pick) a good game manager / an above average starter / an occasional difference maker / not prone to making poor decision. New England can go back to being a more balanced team and run the ball more while playing solid defense and still win. The Patriots won rings in years where Brady threw for 2,800, 3,600, and 3,700 yards (and 3,500 this last season but that would have been much higher if he played 4 more games). In Brady's Top 7 seasons in passing yardage, the Pats DID NOT win the Super Bowl.