PATRIOTS THIS YEAR > What if they win the SB Again? (2 Viewers)

[Alias]

I voted other

No matter what happens, Patriot fans will continue feel their team is being treated unfairly simply because their vaunted "dynasty" is in question after being caught cheating. remember boys, it's only a witch hunt if it isn't true. And I got 500K that says it was.

Enjoy martyrdom!!

Someone needs a hobby. Who the hell takes the NFL this seriously? It's a game that I enjoy watching... I enjoy rooting for the pats and while I'm a bit ashamed of this situation I'l continue to root for them. Anyone building this into anything more significant than that prob should swing by the life store to do some window shopping

Uhhh, isn't FF a hobby?This was mostly in reponse to Alias' post about whichever option is worst for the Pats, that's just wannabe martyrism. I guess I just missed your post giving life advice to the whiner in the thread, just the guy calling him out.

I am not building this into anything more significant than it is, which judgi by the huge penalties given, is pretty significant.

I don't hate the Pats, in fact the AFCW is the furthest away from me and pretty much insignificant to me, but I really call their success into question right now. Every win for any team can be boiled down to 3-5 plays that made the difference in the game. It's pretty clear that the Pats were employing techniques not allowed by the rules to gain an advantage and if they can use that to make one or two of those difference making plays then it's copletely justifiable to call their success into question.

I just find it amusing that certain Pats fans have their heads in the sand about the situation, try to down play it, try to bring other teams into it, try to sweep it under the rug because the commish made his ruling etc... Making a poll like this is pretty much a showcase for blind homerism as evidenced by Alias' post.

I find it amusing that non-patriots fans assume no other team in the league is doing this and that patriots fans must be homers for assuming the opposite. The Patriots got caught and got punished for video surveillance of first game of the 2007 season. Extrapolating that to every game ever played under Belichick is ludicrous, it is like saying if someone was caught speeding on the expressway that they must have been speeding every day since they got their license. Furthermore I would expect there to be a lot more stringent security measures taken in playoff games. Regardless we cannot know either way which teams did this and how much of an advantage it gave them if any so speculation is running rampant.

I find it amusing that any Pats fan would have the balls to suggest they are above board because they "think" other teams are doing this. The Jets aren't, and their coach knew the Pats were. We don't know how long this has been going on but it has been at least three years and probably longer. Pats fans>

Divisional game outcomes during the regular season for the past 3 years for the Patriots:2006 B: W, W; J: W, L; D: W, L

2005 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, L

2004 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, L

B: Bills

J: Jets

D: Dolphins

If we can all agree if there was video footage of all of these games, the outcomes would only be affected in the 2nd meetings against that team. Interesting that the Patriots won each of the first games against each division opponent for the past 3 years and lost to the Dolphins during each 2nd meeting and against the Jets once.

 

[rick6668]

Tough call. I think we can assume the following:1) Belichick isn't throwing away his existing tapes (probably for every team in the AFC and many in the NFC)2) Teams playing the Pats will change their defensive signalsI am leaning toward thinking that 2 overrides 1 and the cheating won't help them much this year. But still, this season is tainted, so I'd like to see what they do in 2008 and beyond.

Are you really this dense? How is this season tainted after 1 game? The cameraman got caught 4 mins into the game... they had ZERO benefit from the tape in last weeks game. You honestly don't think teams won't change their signals? What POSSIBLE advantage could footage of hand signals from previous seasons give the Pats this year? Absolutely amazing how far people will go to throw common sense out the window in favor of lunacy like this.... wow.

So there's absolutely no chance that the Pats had someone at the Bills or Dolphins or any other team they play this years games in week 1 videotaping them?

 

[rick6668]

I voted other

No matter what happens, Patriot fans will continue feel their team is being treated unfairly simply because their vaunted "dynasty" is in question after being caught cheating. remember boys, it's only a witch hunt if it isn't true. And I got 500K that says it was.

Enjoy martyrdom!!

Someone needs a hobby. Who the hell takes the NFL this seriously? It's a game that I enjoy watching... I enjoy rooting for the pats and while I'm a bit ashamed of this situation I'l continue to root for them. Anyone building this into anything more significant than that prob should swing by the life store to do some window shopping

Uhhh, isn't FF a hobby?This was mostly in reponse to Alias' post about whichever option is worst for the Pats, that's just wannabe martyrism. I guess I just missed your post giving life advice to the whiner in the thread, just the guy calling him out.

I am not building this into anything more significant than it is, which judgi by the huge penalties given, is pretty significant.

I don't hate the Pats, in fact the AFCW is the furthest away from me and pretty much insignificant to me, but I really call their success into question right now. Every win for any team can be boiled down to 3-5 plays that made the difference in the game. It's pretty clear that the Pats were employing techniques not allowed by the rules to gain an advantage and if they can use that to make one or two of those difference making plays then it's copletely justifiable to call their success into question.

I just find it amusing that certain Pats fans have their heads in the sand about the situation, try to down play it, try to bring other teams into it, try to sweep it under the rug because the commish made his ruling etc... Making a poll like this is pretty much a showcase for blind homerism as evidenced by Alias' post.

I find it amusing that non-patriots fans assume no other team in the league is doing this and that patriots fans must be homers for assuming the opposite. The Patriots got caught and got punished for video surveillance of first game of the 2007 season. Extrapolating that to every game ever played under Belichick is ludicrous, it is like saying if someone was caught speeding on the expressway that they must have been speeding every day since they got their license. Furthermore I would expect there to be a lot more stringent security measures taken in playoff games. Regardless we cannot know either way which teams did this and how much of an advantage it gave them if any so speculation is running rampant.

I find it amusing that any Pats fan would have the balls to suggest they are above board because they "think" other teams are doing this. The Jets aren't, and their coach knew the Pats were. We don't know how long this has been going on but it has been at least three years and probably longer. Pats fans>

Divisional game outcomes during the regular season for the past 3 years for the Patriots:2006 B: W, W; J: W, L; D: W, L

2005 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, L

2004 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, L

B: Bills

J: Jets

D: Dolphins

If we can all agree if there was video footage of all of these games, the outcomes would only be affected in the 2nd meetings against that team. Interesting that the Patriots won each of the first games against each division opponent for the past 3 years and lost to the Dolphins during each 2nd meeting and against the Jets once.

Nope, It is possible they were taping games they weren't even playing in.

 

[mad sweeney]

I voted other

No matter what happens, Patriot fans will continue feel their team is being treated unfairly simply because their vaunted "dynasty" is in question after being caught cheating. remember boys, it's only a witch hunt if it isn't true. And I got 500K that says it was.

Enjoy martyrdom!!

Someone needs a hobby. Who the hell takes the NFL this seriously? It's a game that I enjoy watching... I enjoy rooting for the pats and while I'm a bit ashamed of this situation I'l continue to root for them. Anyone building this into anything more significant than that prob should swing by the life store to do some window shopping

Uhhh, isn't FF a hobby?This was mostly in reponse to Alias' post about whichever option is worst for the Pats, that's just wannabe martyrism. I guess I just missed your post giving life advice to the whiner in the thread, just the guy calling him out.

I am not building this into anything more significant than it is, which judgi by the huge penalties given, is pretty significant.

I don't hate the Pats, in fact the AFCW is the furthest away from me and pretty much insignificant to me, but I really call their success into question right now. Every win for any team can be boiled down to 3-5 plays that made the difference in the game. It's pretty clear that the Pats were employing techniques not allowed by the rules to gain an advantage and if they can use that to make one or two of those difference making plays then it's copletely justifiable to call their success into question.

I just find it amusing that certain Pats fans have their heads in the sand about the situation, try to down play it, try to bring other teams into it, try to sweep it under the rug because the commish made his ruling etc... Making a poll like this is pretty much a showcase for blind homerism as evidenced by Alias' post.

I find it amusing that non-patriots fans assume no other team in the league is doing this and that patriots fans must be homers for assuming the opposite. The Patriots got caught and got punished for video surveillance of first game of the 2007 season. Extrapolating that to every game ever played under Belichick is ludicrous, it is like saying if someone was caught speeding on the expressway that they must have been speeding every day since they got their license. Furthermore I would expect there to be a lot more stringent security measures taken in playoff games. Regardless we cannot know either way which teams did this and how much of an advantage it gave them if any so speculation is running rampant.

Considering that there is circumstantial evidence pointing to this type of behavior in the past at GB, Detroit, TB as well as documented radio frequency irregularities when the Pats are involved, your analogy is a little extreme. Say that while the speeder is pulled over a few other motorists stop and say "Thanks for grabbing this guy, he speeds like that all the time" and the speeder did it after they were tipped off that this guy was always speeding, and the guy got caught right under a freeway sign that says "The Fuzz is cracking down on speeders, so watch your speed!" There is plenty of evidence out there to cast in doubt previous season's worth of activity. Not to mention the fact that the memo sent out preseason was most likely directed largely at the Pats, who it seems are among the most well known of the teams doing it. I don't recall ever saying that I don't think other teams do it.

As for your last statement, you're right we cannot know. But since the Pats got caught, they ARE the face of cheating in the NFL (until someone else gets caught) and combined with other instances it seems very likely that since type of cheating has been going on for quite awhile. As to "they di the crime, did the time, let it go", how many Pats fans or football fans in general still refer to Merriman as RoidBoy? He did his time, still came back and played at a probowl level, and still carried the steroid stigma. So get used to it guys, your team cheated this year, they cheated last year and the year before. And whether or not they cheated in the SB, the stigma of it is always going to be there.

Now, do I KNOW that the Patriots cheated their way into and through 3 titles? Absolutely not, but I no longer regard them as the untouchable perfect franchise and all of their close SB victories are somewhat in doubt in my mind.

And for a post denouncing speculation, I don't know why you would say "I would expect..."

eta: for the record I chose #1, but I still have issues with their past SB seasons that won't change just because they win this one.

 

[suchislife]

I think we, as fans, have no idea how to quantify the advantage this gave to the Patriots. But the fact that the Commissioner took away a 1st round pick indicates to me that what the Patriots did was pretty serious. It's certainly not out of the question to think that these actions had some impact on their 3 Super Bowl victories. Especially when you consider the number of close games they've won in their 3 Super Bowl runs.

I think that although I will always regard their Super Bowl teams as very good, the dynasty label and comparing them to the other great dynasties in football is now moot. New England will always be questioned in the end because they used technology outside the parameters of the game itself. I still wonder how they beat the Rams in 2001 when they should have got smashed and whether it's right or wrong, I now have doubts on whether that win in particular was legitimate. Then you go back to regular season games, 1st round playoff games, etc...??? Yeah, that's alot to consider. In the NFL the difference between franchises, personnel, and coaching is often negligible. A few key plays, one big performance, or one big stop is the difference between a championship and nothing. How many key plays over the past years were decided because the Patriots were cheating? Very tough to know but it should create a lot of doubt for the league, for other coaches, and to fans. I think what the Patriots have done is absolutely soil their reputation here and they are not going to be able to fix it.

Careful there, Doc. Common sense posts like this are likely to earn you the "lunatic" label.

 

[tombonneau]

The use of video equipment to tape other teams defensive signals was made against the rules in 2006.

The Patriots won SBs in 2001, 2003 and 2004 when it was still condoned by the league as legitimate form of advance scouting.

So not sure how people insist on putting an * next to those wins.

Feel free, however, to * the 2006 AFC East Champion banner.

 

[suchislife]

I find it amusing that non-patriots fans assume no other team in the league is doing this and that patriots fans must be homers for assuming the opposite. The Patriots got caught and got punished for video surveillance of first game of the 2007 season. Extrapolating that to every game ever played under Belichick is ludicrous, it is like saying if someone was caught speeding on the expressway that they must have been speeding every day since they got their license. Furthermore I would expect there to be a lot more stringent security measures taken in playoff games. Regardless we cannot know either way which teams did this and how much of an advantage it gave them if any so speculation is running rampant.

Yeah, that sorta happens when a cheat is exposed. Shines a suspicious light on everything you did. Sucks.

 

[jonessed]

The use of video equipment to tape other teams defensive signals was made against the rules in 2006.

The Patriots won SBs in 2001, 2003 and 2004 when it was still condoned by the league as legitimate form of advance scouting.

So not sure how people insist on putting an * next to those wins.

Feel free, however, to * the 2006 AFC East Champion banner.

No, it wasn't.

 

[massraider]

The use of video equipment to tape other teams defensive signals was made against the rules in 2006.

The Patriots won SBs in 2001, 2003 and 2004 when it was still condoned by the league as legitimate form of advance scouting.

So not sure how people insist on putting an * next to those wins.

Feel free, however, to * the 2006 AFC East Champion banner.

No, it wasn't.

I didn't think so, either. I do wonder, however, when it WAS enacted. And why? I'd love to know what prompted this rule.If the Pats do win the Super Bowl this year, it'll go a long way towards silencing the doubters. But no matter what happens, one scandal like this doesn't erase a near-decade of excellence, as much as I'd love for that to be the case.

But nothing is going to erase the doubt. It would be easier if the Pats had smashed their way through their playoff competitors, and blown out their Super Bowl opponents. There is certainly a precedent for this, most Super Bowls are blowouts.

But Adam V is talked up as a Hall of Fame kicker because he made so many big kicks, in big games that were very, very close. Has any dynasty ever been involved in so many close games? If one is willing to admit that videotaping signals could provide some advantage, it isn't to far a leap to think it might have been the edge in a game decided by one score.

As far as perception goes, since the OP raised the question of what people might think if the Pats won it again, it seems fair to raise more questions:

What will the perception be if Tom Brady's numbers suffer?

What about if the Pats finish 10-6, or worse? That record would certainly be a disappointment, I think most would agree. If anything less than a Super Bowl is a disappointment for the Pats, and we sure heard that this year, people would be within their rights to wonder if they weren't able to close the deal because they didn't have the advantage of knowing the opposing teams defense in the 2nd half.

What if no one else is caught doing this? I have read umpteen times, "Come on, you don't think the Pats are the only ones doing this, do you?" Frankly, it's going to look bad if the Pats are the only ones that get caught like this. Now, the easy answer is that other teams won't risk this because the Pats were punished so severely, and any teams that were doing it will stop. And I agree with this answer, I really do. Nonetheless, people have been caught cheating before, and been punished, and other teams have been caught as well.

Best thing that could happen to the Pats is continued success, especially offensively, and another team to be caught with its hand in the cookie jar.

 

[dparker713]

Sorry, but their library of old signals is still an advantage. Im sure signals completely change from staff to staff, but they're all generally going to be derivative. The new D Coordinator learns signals from his old boss. So, they can have an encyclopedia like reference volume on a PC that can be sorted by team, head coach and D-Coordinator. That reference guide could allow them to more easily decifer the calls the other team is making and still gain them an advantage.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I think we, as fans, have no idea how to quantify the advantage this gave to the Patriots. But the fact that the Commissioner took away a 1st round pick indicates to me that what the Patriots did was pretty serious. It's certainly not out of the question to think that these actions had some impact on their 3 Super Bowl victories. Especially when you consider the number of close games they've won in their 3 Super Bowl runs.

I think that although I will always regard their Super Bowl teams as very good, the dynasty label and comparing them to the other great dynasties in football is now moot. New England will always be questioned in the end because they used technology outside the parameters of the game itself. I still wonder how they beat the Rams in 2001 when they should have got smashed and whether it's right or wrong, I now have doubts on whether that win in particular was legitimate. Then you go back to regular season games, 1st round playoff games, etc...??? Yeah, that's alot to consider. In the NFL the difference between franchises, personnel, and coaching is often negligible. A few key plays, one big performance, or one big stop is the difference between a championship and nothing. How many key plays over the past years were decided because the Patriots were cheating? Very tough to know but it should create a lot of doubt for the league, for other coaches, and to fans. I think what the Patriots have done is absolutely soil their reputation here and they are not going to be able to fix it.

Careful there, Doc. Common sense posts like this are likely to earn you the "lunatic" label.

I have nothing to gain or lose here. I'm not a Pats hater, my team is in the NFC, and I am a Brady fan. However if I were a fan of a team that lost to the Pats in the playoffs or in a key regular season game then I'd really have to evaluate this at the level that games in the past are still in question. Alias>You have to look beyond the division games. It's all the games and if the Pats had an unfair advantage then not only did they team they were playing lose, but so did a team that was in a playoff race or even a race for a home playoff game. I find it hard to believe that you would not consider the angle of other fans especially those who have a vested emotional interest in the Patriots losing to their team. I think you and other Patriots fans really don't have much stable ground to stand on here. Best to just sit back and do the told you so if they win another Super Bowl without resorting to using methods that have little to do with talent, game prep, and execution. I'll be skeptical until then.

 

[Keys Myaths]

Sorry, but their library of old signals is still an advantage. Im sure signals completely change from staff to staff, but they're all generally going to be derivative. The new D Coordinator learns signals from his old boss. So, they can have an encyclopedia like reference volume on a PC that can be sorted by team, head coach and D-Coordinator. That reference guide could allow them to more easily decifer the calls the other team is making and still gain them an advantage.

If teams still use the same signals they always have against New England with this story breaking, everyone on that team deserves to get fired.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Sorry, but their library of old signals is still an advantage. Im sure signals completely change from staff to staff, but they're all generally going to be derivative. The new D Coordinator learns signals from his old boss. So, they can have an encyclopedia like reference volume on a PC that can be sorted by team, head coach and D-Coordinator. That reference guide could allow them to more easily decifer the calls the other team is making and still gain them an advantage.

If teams still use the same signals they always have against New England with this story breaking, everyone on that team deserves to get fired.

Its about pattern. Any mathematics type could figure out the key and then the sub codes by just matching things with gametape. You have a signal, a sub code, a play. If you have enough video history on a specific coach it's really not that hard to figure out in 8 of 10 cases I would suspect. People are creatures of pattern. They change, but not as much as you might think. If you have five years of signals on tape, it can certainly be done.

 

[dparker713]

Sorry, but their library of old signals is still an advantage. Im sure signals completely change from staff to staff, but they're all generally going to be derivative. The new D Coordinator learns signals from his old boss. So, they can have an encyclopedia like reference volume on a PC that can be sorted by team, head coach and D-Coordinator. That reference guide could allow them to more easily decifer the calls the other team is making and still gain them an advantage.

If teams still use the same signals they always have against New England with this story breaking, everyone on that team deserves to get fired.

Its about pattern. Any mathematics type could figure out the key and then the sub codes by just matching things with gametape. You have a signal, a sub code, a play. If you have enough video history on a specific coach it's really not that hard to figure out in 8 of 10 cases I would suspect. People are creatures of pattern. They change, but not as much as you might think. If you have five years of signals on tape, it can certainly be done.

Think about it like this. How many truely unique passwords do you have? Coming up with new ones on a regular basis that can readily be remembered is fairly difficult. But, its pretty easy to take an old password and modify it slightly. And dont forget, its not just the D-Coordinators that need to memorize these new signals, its also several players on the field. Given the complexity of NFL playbooks, I dont really think it would be possible to have a new set, or even a modified set, of signals every week. I think its going to take some time (maybe this season, maybe not) before a team could come up with a whole new signaling system.

 

[TexasSara]

I don't care one way or the other about the Patriots, but this subject interests me. This videotaping could be just the tip of the iceberg. There is evidence that spying goes on this several teams around the league (and probably in other sports for that matter). According to Chris Mortensen, Zach Thomas inadvertently hinted in an interview that the Dolphins could hear the radio transmissions of the Patriots in game 14 last year when the Dolphins defeated the Patriots 21-0. That being said, everyone else doing it doesn't make it right. Bottom line, it hurts the integrity of the game.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I don't care one way or the other about the Patriots, but this subject interests me. This videotaping could be just the tip of the iceberg. There is evidence that spying goes on this several teams around the league (and probably in other sports for that matter). According to Chris Mortensen, Zach Thomas inadvertently hinted in an interview that the Dolphins could hear the radio transmissions of the Patriots in game 14 last year when the Dolphins defeated the Patriots 21-0. That being said, everyone else doing it doesn't make it right. Bottom line, it hurts the integrity of the game.

Yeah as a football fan in general I think this type of stuff is worse than the Michael Vick problems. Vick is one player, who has rarely won and really never proved anything other than he was overrated. He is also one man in a league of over a thousand players. When teams are found to be cheating this is very damaging to the reputation of the game. I for one wish that this would have never happened because in the long run we are always going to hear about three Super Bowl Championships being in question. That's not good for the league.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Looking back at the Pats/Steelers 2005 thread someone mentioned that the Pats under Belichick (from 2001 to Jan 2005) were 14-0 when facing a team for the second time in a season. That stat alone gives some credibility to the argument that the Pats dynasty was aided by this videotape scandal.

 

[massraider]

Looking back at the Pats/Steelers 2005 thread someone mentioned that the Pats under Belichick (from 2001 to Jan 2005) were 14-0 when facing a team for the second time in a season. That stat alone gives some credibility to the argument that the Pats dynasty was aided by this videotape scandal.

Is that stat correct? Anyone know where to get game by game results of past seasons?

 

[[icon]]

Looking back at the Pats/Steelers 2005 thread someone mentioned that the Pats under Belichick (from 2001 to Jan 2005) were 14-0 when facing a team for the second time in a season. That stat alone gives some credibility to the argument that the Pats dynasty was aided by this videotape scandal.

Is that stat correct? Anyone know where to get game by game results of past seasons?

No.. it's not right.... but I'm loving all the "statistics" coming out of the woodwork here As posted just 10 posts or so up:2006 B: W, W; J: W, L; D: W, L2005 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, L2004 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, LPats lost 2nd meetings to Jets and Dolphins in 2006Pats lost 2nd meeting to Dolphins in 2005 and 2004And that's just divisional opponents. In fact they faresd WORSE against divisional opponents the 2nd time around over the last 3 years.

 

[mad sweeney]

The use of video equipment to tape other teams defensive signals was made against the rules in 2006.

The Patriots won SBs in 2001, 2003 and 2004 when it was still condoned by the league as legitimate form of advance scouting.

So not sure how people insist on putting an * next to those wins.

Feel free, however, to * the 2006 AFC East Champion banner.

No, it wasn't.

Even if it were true, the Roid Boys of Baseball were taking stuff that wasn't yet disallowed when they took it and they still have the stigma and asterisk in the minds of fans on their accomplishments.Goodell called it a "longstanding rule" so I doubt that a rule from 2006 would be referred to as "longstanding".

 

[Gr00vus]

What about the rumors of surveillance equipment in the opposing teams locker room?

What bearing would your deviant fetish have on this situation?

You seem obsessed with this. Maybe you should take a break. It's just a game.

I like how Icon tells everyone who doesn't agree with him to get a hobby, while he continues to post on this topic ad nauseum. It's funny.

 

[Mungo Burrows]

Of course I'd vote for 3. I thought they were cheaters before this whole camera thing even came out.

 

[HoTnickZ]

Looking back at the Pats/Steelers 2005 thread someone mentioned that the Pats under Belichick (from 2001 to Jan 2005) were 14-0 when facing a team for the second time in a season. That stat alone gives some credibility to the argument that the Pats dynasty was aided by this videotape scandal.

Is that stat correct? Anyone know where to get game by game results of past seasons?

No.. it's not right.... but I'm loving all the "statistics" coming out of the woodwork here As posted just 10 posts or so up:2006 B: W, W; J: W, L; D: W, L2005 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, L2004 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, LPats lost 2nd meetings to Jets and Dolphins in 2006Pats lost 2nd meeting to Dolphins in 2005 and 2004And that's just divisional opponents. In fact they faresd WORSE against divisional opponents the 2nd time around over the last 3 years.

Jets and Dolphins, the only 2 teams to beat them in 2nd games hmmmm (insert conspiracy theory emoticon here)

 

[Fantaholic]

I think we, as fans, have no idea how to quantify the advantage this gave to the Patriots. But the fact that the Commissioner took away a 1st round pick indicates to me that what the Patriots did was pretty serious. It's certainly not out of the question to think that these actions had some impact on their 3 Super Bowl victories. Especially when you consider the number of close games they've won in their 3 Super Bowl runs.

Absolutely correct in bold. As far as the comments about Weis saying something to Kiffin. Why the hell would he say that, if this was a TOP SECRET operation. Why would the Patriots continue to do it for years if it were so blatantly out of line? In this day and age of technology, especially if you have then means of an NFL team, we would be ignorant to think that things like this weren't happening in many different ways.

I am a fan, so I will be called a homer, etc for defending them. However, fan or no fan this team's legacy has been FOREVER tainted within a few short days. While the label may be fitting for our head coach, it certainly may not be the case for some of these other guys. Guys like Bruschi and Vrabel that were on the other side of the ball will now have to live with the label of a "cheater." Do they deserve that? Supposedly, this videotaping did not have an effect on the defense. However, the crucifying has included the entire Patriots team since Belichick came into town. What about all years that our defense has been known as one of the stingiest in the league. Yes, we won superbowls by small margins. Did that have nothing to do with defense?

I think it's disgusting that some very good players that busted their asses over the years will have to live with a "Bondsesque" stigma from now on.

 

[Gr00vus]

I think it's disgusting that some very good players that busted their asses over the years will have to live with a "Bondsesque" stigma from now on.

That's the price for cheating and getting caught. Ask Merriman about it.

 

[Fantaholic]

I think it's disgusting that some very good players that busted their asses over the years will have to live with a "Bondsesque" stigma from now on.

That's the price for cheating and getting caught. Ask Merriman about it.

Wow, how long have you been with the Pats organization? Because, only someone within it would know if the whole team had knowledge of what was going on.Furthermore, I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Merriman probably had knowledge of what he was taking.

 

[jonessed]

I think it's disgusting that some very good players that busted their asses over the years will have to live with a "Bondsesque" stigma from now on.

That's the price for cheating and getting caught. Ask Merriman about it.

Wow, how long have you been with the Pats organization? Because, only someone within it would know if the whole team had knowledge of what was going on.Furthermore, I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Merriman probably had knowledge of what he was taking.

When individuals get caught the team gets tarnished. Look at the Bengals. Now you have a coach get caught? I'm sorry, but that tarnishes the whole team. There is no way around that.

 

[[icon]]

Looking back at the Pats/Steelers 2005 thread someone mentioned that the Pats under Belichick (from 2001 to Jan 2005) were 14-0 when facing a team for the second time in a season. That stat alone gives some credibility to the argument that the Pats dynasty was aided by this videotape scandal.

Is that stat correct? Anyone know where to get game by game results of past seasons?

No.. it's not right.... but I'm loving all the "statistics" coming out of the woodwork here As posted just 10 posts or so up:

2006 B: W, W; J: W, L; D: W, L

2005 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, L

2004 B: W, W; J: W, W; D: W, L

Pats lost 2nd meetings to Jets and Dolphins in 2006

Pats lost 2nd meeting to Dolphins in 2005 and 2004



And that's just divisional opponents. In fact they fared WORSE against divisional opponents the 2nd time around over the last 3 years.

Jets and Dolphins, the only 2 teams to beat them in 2nd games hmmmm (insert conspiracy theory emoticon here)

Let's try to re-read my post again (see bolded part) I don't care to look it up for all teams but those are the 2 of the 3 teams in their division beat them in the 2nd appearance. SO they had a losing record in the 2nd appearance against divisional opponents last year.

Put the torches down jethro... nothing to see here.

 

[Fantaholic]

I think it's disgusting that some very good players that busted their asses over the years will have to live with a "Bondsesque" stigma from now on.

That's the price for cheating and getting caught. Ask Merriman about it.

Wow, how long have you been with the Pats organization? Because, only someone within it would know if the whole team had knowledge of what was going on.Furthermore, I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Merriman probably had knowledge of what he was taking.

When individuals get caught the team gets tarnished. Look at the Bengals. Now you have a coach get caught? I'm sorry, but that tarnishes the whole team. There is no way around that.

You're on the west coast, tell me if the San Francisco Giants are taking the same abuse that Bonds has?

 

[TexasSara]

IMO, Patriots fans should be more angry than anyone. Because of this, all of the Patriots past, present, and future successes have been called into question. Much of their success is completely merited, but now they have the stigma of cheating. People may have alleged cheating before, but now there is blatant evidence.

It's unethical. I don't care how prevalent it is. It doesn't justify it, period. Nor should it be tolerated.

 

[Darth Cheney]

If the Cheaters win....I will assume that they are using another method of cheating to achieve it. Maybe something with satellites.....

 

[Darth Cheney]

IMO, Patriots fans should be more angry than anyone. Because of this, all of the Patriots past, present, and future successes have been called into question. Much of their success is completely merited, but now they have the stigma of cheating. People may have alleged cheating before, but now there is blatant evidence.

It's unethical. I don't care how prevalent it is. It doesn't justify it, period. Nor should it be tolerated.

*

 

[Gr00vus]

I think it's disgusting that some very good players that busted their asses over the years will have to live with a "Bondsesque" stigma from now on.

That's the price for cheating and getting caught. Ask Merriman about it.

Wow, how long have you been with the Pats organization? Because, only someone within it would know if the whole team had knowledge of what was going on.Furthermore, I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Merriman probably had knowledge of what he was taking.

You missed my point. Somebody (and most likely several people in the organization at least) cheated, knowingly, and thus knew they were running the risk of getting caught and sullying the whole organization. And that's what happened. And honestly, that's what they deserve, just like Merriman. That's my point.If I was in the organization and innocent, and especially if I was a fan, I would be absolutely furious about this and demand the heads of those who put the whole organization in this situation. I wouldn't want to be associated with, have to root for, and certainly wouldn't want to work with, people who would so brazenly disregard not only rules, honor and integrity but also the impact of their low character behavior on coworkers, fans, etc. in order to attempt to get ahead whatever way they can, right or wrong. The fact that they weren't even smart enough not to get caught just makes it that much worse.I find that kind of low character disgusting.

 

[2 Minute Drill w your mom]

I am by no means a Patriots fan, but anyone who thinks the video stuff has anything to do with their Super Bowl wins, past or future, needs to pull their head out of the sand.

I disagree. The line between good and great is so thin in the NFL that even a little advantage can be the difference between and losing.

Considering all their SB wins came down to a FG, it's very reasonable to believe that an advantage gained for even just one series in the games could have been the difference.

Agreed. And anyone who says they still would have won their super bowls even if they wouldn't have cheated just doesn't get it. The fact is, they DID cheat and they knew they were breaking the rules in doing it. Why would they break the rules and risk getting caught if it didn't give them an advantage?If you are a hitter in baseball, and you know what pitches are coming and where before the pitch is thrown you have a huge advantage over the pitcher. This isn't the same situation, obviously, but does help illustrate what has been going on with the Pats.They have been cheating, they got caught, and they are now paying the price. Whether the imposed penalty is fair, or not, is still a valid question though.

 

[mad sweeney]

I think it's disgusting that some very good players that busted their asses over the years will have to live with a "Bondsesque" stigma from now on.

That's the price for cheating and getting caught. Ask Merriman about it.

Wow, how long have you been with the Pats organization? Because, only someone within it would know if the whole team had knowledge of what was going on.Furthermore, I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Merriman probably had knowledge of what he was taking.

According to him he took a supplement whose ingredients were not gauranteed by NFL sources to contain only what's on the label. And considering the fact that he never tested positive before, or since, and his play did not drop of after the suspension, it doesn't seem to me that it gave him too much of an advantage. I mean, Taylor was so worried about a guy playing only 12 games beating him for DPOY that he called Merriman out on TV. Most people don't believe him, including most Pats fans and the Pats themselves as evidenced by all the pregame hoopla last year. Meanwhile, I'm sure Harrison and Sauerbrun were quiet on the matter. Now we have BB up on the pedestal saying we never used in-game and never got a competitive advantage from it. I would ask all the Pats fans and others who don't feel the cheating label should apply how they felt about Merriman's statement. Did you believe him? Do you still call him Roid Boy (even though the Pats signed a known roid user in Sauerbrun)? The stigma of cheating is going to stick no matter what the Pats do this year. And if you honestly believe that BB and the cameraman were the only ones involved, well I'm sure Merriman didn't know what he was taking. Because there's no way you can implement the info gleaned without at least 1 analyst, the OC, BB and Brady knowing about it. Unless Brady for years blindly accepted that BB whispering in his ear that there's a blitz from the right side and the flanker will have single coverage, then I have a bridge to sell him.I've been thinking about it a lot and I think it would've been better off for them to have this scandal break on a team that wasn't as loaded up with talent. Because chances are with Moss, Stallworth, Maroney and others on both sides of the ball that they are probably going to do very well. Because if they could run the table and beat everyone with a bunch of nobodys then the stigma of cheating could be mitgated. But winning it with such a loaded team doesn't go a long way in proving they could do it without their extra help.

 

[The Great Snook]

I'm convinced this is playing right into the hands of the Patriots. They have always been best when they have the "Us against the world" mindset. I don't believe the videotaping actually accomplished anything. However, now it is in the head of their opponents and the team has a chip on its shoulder. For disclosure, I am a Patriot fan.

 

[Walter Slovotsky]

To be perfectly honest... the "hidden" (though several folks caught it and PMed me) motive for creating this poll was to fish out the lunatics. Anyone voting the 3rd option is clearly just doing so out of spite/hatred for the patriots and has an opinion worth less than zero in the minds of any rational NFL fan. Partcularly since I dangled the carrot of #2 out there giving fans who hate the pats but are at least rational and objective an out. Anyone writing off the 2008 season (which is apparenlty 23% of you so far) because of 4 mins of footage that the coaches never saw might as well not even watch the games as they're a little too emotionally invested in this league to be healthy.

That is quite the leap of logic there. You apparently believe someone would have to be a lunatic to consider that an admitted and proven cheater might cheat.You can count me in the camp that believes the Patriots got little to no advantage out of their videotaping 'procedures'. But really, that just makes it that much worse. If you are willing to cheat in a way that arguably gives you little to no advantage, and in a way that is easily caught by those who are looking for it, I have to believe you are that much more likely to cheat in ways that clearly do give you a real advantage. And Belicheck's insistence on clinging to his fiction of it being a matter of interpretation does nothing to make me think otherwise.Basically, any past and future accomplishments of any Bill Belicheck coached football teams can be legitimately questioned. In the end, that is the real penalty Bill will have to pay for getting caught cheating.

 

[AB in DC]

Agreed. And anyone who says they still would have won their super bowls even if they wouldn't have cheated just doesn't get it. The fact is, they DID cheat and they knew they were breaking the rules in doing it. Why would they break the rules and risk getting caught if it didn't give them an advantage?

Says who?

 

[pizzatyme]

As a Colts fan, I would congratulate them. However, I disagree with you assessment that they have or will continue to "beat up" on the NFL.

They have won by less than a TD in any SB. I wouldn't necessarily call that beating up on anyone.

 

[acme]

Walter Slovotsky...

Walter? There can't be many Walter Slovotsky's... Are you the same Walter I went to undergrad with? Had Deighton's class together with Doria and James? If not, sorry dude. But if so, please shoot me a line. I had totally forgotten about you... geez, what's it been? 23 years?-Karl Cullinanep.s. great avatar - that game ruled!

 

[nuzzy]

If this happened to the Browns or Cardinals (crappy teams) it wouldn't have gotten nearly the same exposure. WAY OVERBLOWN. The players still need to play the game. If they make it to the AFC championship it should be forgotten IMHO...

 

[Enforcer]

Without benefit of the video?

Sounds like they've been banking this video for a while now. To me it seems the benefit would come in future games, not immediately. Am I off base here?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

If this happened to the Browns or Cardinals (crappy teams) it wouldn't have gotten nearly the same exposure. WAY OVERBLOWN. The players still need to play the game. If they make it to the AFC championship it should be forgotten IMHO...

Of course it wouldn't have gotten this kind of exposure. Last I checked the Browns and Cards don't win very many playoff games or three Super Bowls. Yeah the players still need to play the game. Like if the game is 20-17 pats in the 4th quarter and they know a quick out is coming and the corner back cheats over, picks it off and runs it back for a TD to secure the game. Or maybe the Pats are down 20-17 and they know will blitz the strong safety and leave the flanker one on one on the outside with a overmatched corner. Brady hits Moss down the sideline for a 50 yard TD to win. It's not going to be forgotten.

 

[brobe4]

If this happened to the Browns or Cardinals (crappy teams) it wouldn't have gotten nearly the same exposure. WAY OVERBLOWN. The players still need to play the game. If they make it to the AFC championship it should be forgotten IMHO...

Honestly you believe this.

 

[Enforcer]

To be perfectly honest... the "hidden" (though several folks caught it and PMed me) motive for creating this poll was to fish out the lunatics.

You've created a poll assuming there are only two sides to the story. Accept it or Deny it. There is always going to be varying degrees of doubt associated with the legitimacy of their wins this year because we'll never know to what degree they broke the rules and how much benefit they actually received breaking the rules.You've opted to label anyone that has any degree of doubt as a lunatic.

 

[nuzzy]

If this happened to the Browns or Cardinals (crappy teams) it wouldn't have gotten nearly the same exposure. WAY OVERBLOWN. The players still need to play the game. If they make it to the AFC championship it should be forgotten IMHO...

Honestly you believe this.

absolutely

 

[mad sweeney]

To be perfectly honest... the "hidden" (though several folks caught it and PMed me) motive for creating this poll was to fish out the lunatics.

You've created a poll assuming there are only two sides to the story. Accept it or Deny it. There is always going to be varying degrees of doubt associated with the legitimacy of their wins this year because we'll never know to what degree they broke the rules and how much benefit they actually received breaking the rules.You've opted to label anyone that has any degree of doubt as a lunatic.

On the ESPN ticker they just reported that Goodell has ordered the Pats to turn over any and all files/video relating to the practice of videotaping opponents. So I guess this runs a little deeper than many have thought and the answers to whether their SBSs are tarnished are not yet answered. Sorry to say to all the Pats fans that think this is over and let's move on, the Sheriff isn't done and this may be far from over.

 

[Enforcer]

To be perfectly honest... the "hidden" (though several folks caught it and PMed me) motive for creating this poll was to fish out the lunatics.

You've created a poll assuming there are only two sides to the story. Accept it or Deny it. There is always going to be varying degrees of doubt associated with the legitimacy of their wins this year because we'll never know to what degree they broke the rules and how much benefit they actually received breaking the rules.You've opted to label anyone that has any degree of doubt as a lunatic.

On the ESPN ticker they just reported that Goodell has ordered the Pats to turn over any and all files/video relating to the practice of videotaping opponents. So I guess this runs a little deeper than many have thought and the answers to whether their SBSs are tarnished are not yet answered. Sorry to say to all the Pats fans that think this is over and let's move on, the Sheriff isn't done and this may be far from over.

The problem is there's not going to be any way for us to know how much video exists, and after any other video is turned over they probably won't tell us how much was turned over. Sure, turn over the video, but I can't imagine NFL officials tearing apart their headquarters and coaches homes looking for tapes. There's always going to be reasons to have lingering doubt. This isn't a black and white situation. It's all shades of gray.

 

[winsbeforeks]

Everyone just assumes that they are going to go out and blow the doors off of their opponents. And yet they did this videotaping, knowing the risks, for a reason.

To me, the opposite question is more interesting. What if the Patriots underachieve this year?

 

[RenegadeGM]

To be perfectly honest... the "hidden" (though several folks caught it and PMed me) motive for creating this poll was to fish out the lunatics.

You've created a poll assuming there are only two sides to the story. Accept it or Deny it. There is always going to be varying degrees of doubt associated with the legitimacy of their wins this year because we'll never know to what degree they broke the rules and how much benefit they actually received breaking the rules.You've opted to label anyone that has any degree of doubt as a lunatic.

On the ESPN ticker they just reported that Goodell has ordered the Pats to turn over any and all files/video relating to the practice of videotaping opponents. So I guess this runs a little deeper than many have thought and the answers to whether their SBSs are tarnished are not yet answered. Sorry to say to all the Pats fans that think this is over and let's move on, the Sheriff isn't done and this may be far from over.

I'll admit I don't know the whole story, but ESPN just mentioned the NFL will also be investigating radio frequencies used in the game as well... 4 total, 3 suspicious... VERY interesting.I'm not going to take a guess on what transpires from here, but will be interested in following the outcome.