Peyton Manning (1 Viewer)

[tommyGunZ]

Already is.

I disagree with this. If his career ended today, he would still be rightfully ranked below Elway, Montana, and Favre among modern era QBs, as well as some of the older generation guys like Unitas and Graham. And depending on how Brady's career progresses from here, he may well be ranked below him as well.

Nope. He's better than Elway, Montana, Favre, and Marino right now, in my opinion. Even if he was hit by a bus tonight.

How do you explain the fac that Favre has better numbers, has a longer win streak, has the same number of Superbowls, has more MVPs, more Pro Bowls, and has done it with substantially worse surrounding talent, if Manning is better than him?

I disagree with that assumption. I can see by your post below (wanting to see Peyton after Harrison retires) that you probably place far more weight on Harrison's impact on Peyton's success than I do. I don't think Marvin is a HOFer without Peyton or the system in Indy.

 

[bostonfred]

Already is.

I disagree with this. If his career ended today, he would still be rightfully ranked below Elway, Montana, and Favre among modern era QBs, as well as some of the older generation guys like Unitas and Graham. And depending on how Brady's career progresses from here, he may well be ranked below him as well.

Nope. He's better than Elway, Montana, Favre, and Marino right now, in my opinion. Even if he was hit by a bus tonight.

How do you explain the fac that Favre has better numbers, has a longer win streak, has the same number of Superbowls, has more MVPs, more Pro Bowls, and has done it with substantially worse surrounding talent, if Manning is better than him?

I disagree with that assumption. I can see by your post below (wanting to see Peyton after Harrison retires) that you probably place far more weight on Harrison's impact on Peyton's success than I do. I don't think Marvin is a HOFer without Peyton or the system in Indy.

How much of Favre's success do you think came from Antonio Freeman?

 

[Tau837]

Favre had Ahman Green in his prime, and Sterling Sharpe was pretty good. I'm sure I'm missing many, but this whole idea about Manning and his talent is crazy talk.

I have seen Sharpe brought up a few times. Old posts on Favre's supporting cast:

Favre played with Sharpe for his first 3 seasons in Green Bay. He has played 12 seasons since, mostly without any great WRs. Favre made guys like Robert Brooks, Antonio Freeman, and Bill Schroeder look good, but they were average. Driver is probably the second best WR Favre has played with, behind Sharpe....

Here are the All Pros for Green Bay in Favre's 14 seasons in Green Bay (not including this season):

1992 - WR Sharpe

1993 - WR Sharpe, S Butler, K Jacke

1995 - QB Favre, DE White

1996 - QB Favre, S Butler, PR Howard

1997 - QB Favre, S Butler, ST Jervey

1998 - WR Freeman, DE White, S Butler, KR Preston

2000 - S Sharper

2004 - FB Henderson

That's a total of 4 on offense (not including Favre himself), 7 on defense, and 4 on special teams in 14 seasons.

he's had 7 1000 yard rushers in 13 seasons, and 2 of those were barely over 1000. Generally speaking, Favre has been productive in the seasons in which he had a great RB and in the seasons in which he didn't. So I don't see that as really supporting your case.

Favre has not played with a lot of supporting talent in Green Bay.

 

[phthalatemagic]

I don't think Manning will ever break the all time pick record, which has been held for how many decades?

 

[bostonfred]

I don't think Manning will ever break the all time pick record, which has been held for how many decades?

At least some portion of that is because his receivers are generally where they're supposed to be.

 

[Tau837]

I've never liked this championship requirement for greatness. I mean, is Montana the only guy who could have taken the Niners to the Super Bowl? And if so, you're claiming that guys like Ronnie Lott and Jerry Rice were simply riding his coattails. Is Montana's ability to lead the team to the Super Bowl the primary factor in how the other players' careers will be measured, like their championships are just an extension of Montana's greatness alone? Surely you count their rings to justify their greatness as well, but then who actually earned it... Montana? Seems like each of them get credit for being on winning team and the rest of the team is magically removed from the accomplishment for each debate, like they won an MVP trophy or something.

Of course those other guys were not simply riding Montana's coattails. If this thread was about the greatest defensive back of all time, Lott would certainly be in the discussion and you can be sure that his championships would be a point in his favor.

By that measure, if the Colts somehow develop the best defense of all time in Manning's late--dare-I-say--"mediocre" years, and he gets his ring count up while posting Trent Dilfer numbers, would those days rocket his value even if the adapted gameplan was built around say... Addai and impenetrable Colts defense?

Yes, more rings would improve Manning's legacy even if the passing game took a backseat to the running game and defense. He would still be leading the offense and a critical contributor to the team's success.

Charles Haley has five Super Bowl rings, does that make him the greatest player of all time? Mike Lodish has played in six Super Bowls. If his team had won them all, would it change your opinion about his standing among his peers?

Is Charles Haley the best player of all time? Of course not. But you can be sure that the most significant thing on his resume is that he was a significant contributor to 5 Super Bowl winners.

The way I think about championships and what they mean in measuring players is that they can be a discriminator in comparing similar players. So if there are some other defensive linemen with similar statistics to Haley, he can fairly be judged to be superior to those others because he helped his teams win 5 Super Bowls and they didn't.

In this case, we're talking about how to judge the best QB of all time. It is a given that all candidates will be great players, so you have to look at what separates one from another. It is silly to think that Montana's four championships should not be a factor in judging him against other QBs. Consequently, most people would say Manning needs to win more championships to compare favorably against other great QBs, such as Montana, Elway, and Favre.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Fisrt off, everyone who is envolved with football will say that it is the ultimate team sport. How could you possibly say Joe Montana is the best ever? Bill Walsh explained in interviews that Joe wasn't that great, it was hard work within a system that accomplished those titles. He led a two-minute drill against the Bengals and he's annointed best-ever? If Tim Krumrie doesn't get hurt, do the Niners win? How come no one has mentioned John Elway? If you want to talk about when the chips are down, look no further. Five SBs, two wins. And it took a running game to get him those. If you want to debate best ever, fine. You can't base it on titles. Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw had top quality defenses. I'm getting long-winded here, but if Manning continues at his current pace, there is not doubt he'll be considered the best.

Thank You Thank You Thank You.MONTANA is OVERRATED!!! Steve Young was a better QB. Montana had amazing supporting cast, Jerry Rice and most importantly Bill Walsh ( The Man who changed the game offensively) Most teams today use his system or a variant of it. Montana's first super bowl team had the #1 defense in the league. When has Peyton even played with close to a top 10 defense. Montana was the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. He was very good don't get me wrong but no had seen the West Coast Offense. Bill Walsh was a genius. Do you really think that if Dan Marino played on those Niner squads he would have no super bowl titles.Peyton is the greatest field general ever. He is the coach on the field. He works harder than anyone. I think if you asked Elway, Montana, Brady or Johny U who is the greatest, they would all say Peyton. Titles aren't everything. If Jim Kelly and Aikman switched places would Aikman have those rings or would Kelly. So to sum up Manning is Godly. Montana is overrated. Elway gets my 2nd place vote due to doing more with less. Elway lead teams to the super bowl that had no business being there and that is why they got smoked when they got there.

Two absolutely ridiculous posts! Maybe the dumbest I have ever read and that is saying alot!!!! I have seen Walsh speak in person at least 4 times down at Stanford and I have heard him state that Montana was the best qb to ever play the game and that he was probably the greatest athlete that he ever coached... People dont realize that Montana was a high jump champion in high school as well as a highly recruited basketball player... He also was every bit as fast as Steve Young and just about as good a scrambler when he started in the league... He also won his first championship with a supporting cast of Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, and Earl Cooper as his main offensive weapons! But wait I forgot he is a product of being around great players right???? Wow.

His defense that year was ranked 1st just like Dilfer's was. I would say that having the best defense in the league is a mighty strong supporting cast. Refute that please. Defense wins championships. Teams that are the worst against the run in the regular season don't win the Super Bowl unless you have Peyton Manning.

LOL at citing Indy's regular season defensive shortcomings as if that had anything to do with the playoffs WHEN THEIR DEFENSE WAS VERY VERY GOOD.

 

[Tau837]

But the reason Dilfer won that Superbowl is that the team around him was legendary. The Ravens may have had the best defense ever to play in the NFL. McMahon was on the right team at the right time, too, as was Brad Johnson. None of these guys were great quarterbacks, they were all just decent or good players on exceptional teams. Counting the number of Superbowls they'd won, compared with the number of Superbowls that Marino won, is obviously not a good measure of how good they were as quarterbacks.

Obviously. But it is very relevant to compare Favre to Marino and cite the fact that he led a Super Bowl winner as an advantage to Favre in that comparison. Championships is one component of an effective comparison between QBs, but not the only thing that matters.

But let's say Manning ends up with identical numbers to Favre. Could you say he was as good a quarterback as Favre? To me, the answer is a clear no. They both won a ton of games, they both had MVP seasons, they both have incredible numbers, but Favre has had nowhere near the collection of offensive talent that Manning has had. Even if Manning sets career records, how much would he have to exceed Favre by to make up for the fact that he had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne instead of a surrounding cast like Antonio Freeman, Donald Driver, and Greg Jennings for all these years? He's had every possible advantage his entire career.

Basically, you're arguing that Manning should be penalized in such a comparison because he was in a better situation. IMO you can't do that, because you can never know definitively how players would fare in different situations than the ones they are in. When talking about the best players of all time, I think their greatness transcends situation. Think Montana, Young, Emmitt Smith, Rice, etc. All can be knocked for playing in great situations, but they likely would have been great in other situations as well IMO.

Also, it isn't true Manning has "had every advantage". Consider that Brady has had the luxury of playing his entire career for BB, arguably the best coach in the NFL over that span.

For those mentioning Tom Brady, forget the Superbowls. What he has done statistically with guys like Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Jabar Gaffney, Deion Branch, David Patten, David Givens and co has to be considered pretty impressive as well. He plays on grass outdoors on a cold weather team with a better defense, and yet he still puts up top numbers every year.

What do you mean by "top numbers"? I don't think of his numbers as being amongst the best year after year. And consequently, if you "forget the Superbowls" Brady isn't even in this conversation.

Another question to ask: If Tom Brady ended up with the best numbers of his career this year (or next, once they've had a chance to get to know each other), would it make Brady a better quarterback than he was in the past? It shouldn't, should it?

Of course it would. I think you're suggesting that it shouldn't require him to get better players around him, leading to better numbers, for him to be judged correctly. But numbers are a big part of how QBs are judged. If his numbers improve, the perception of his performance will correspondingly improve. Furthermore, I expect Brady to still be improving as a QB year to year anyway.

 

[Tau837]

A few things that we should get to see by the end of his career: I'd want to see what he does once Harrison retires.

I think Harrison is a great player. But I also think Manning will do just fine with whatever WRs he has. Fortunately, we should have an opportunity to see that one for ourselves.

I'd need to see if he can be the reason his team wins a playoff game a few more times, like he was in the Pats game last year.

Interesting. How many times does he need to do this? To date, he has won 7 playoff games, and I'd say he was "the reason" for about 5 of them.

I'd also like to see what happens if the pass interference rules become less favorable, instead of more favorable.

Why? The rule affects all QBs the same. I mean, it might hurt Manning's numbers a bit, but it would affect all QBs. His numbers would almost certainly still be amongst the best. I seriously doubt this will happen anyway.

And I'd have to see him win or at least perform very well in a playoff game in cold weather.

This is laughable. Are you suggesting that if he never does this, you wouldn't consider him the greatest irrespective of his other accomplishments?

 

[Ghost Rider]

And I'd have to see him win or at least perform very well in a playoff game in cold weather.

This is laughable. Are you suggesting that if he never does this, you wouldn't consider him the greatest irrespective of his other accomplishments?

Yeah, that is kind of unfair to say that, especially since Manning plays his home games in a dome, so any cold weather playoff road game he would have to win, would have to be on the road, which is difficult for any QB to do. And as awesome as Brady is, he hasn't exactly been lights out in cold weather playoff games, either.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Already is.

I disagree with this. If his career ended today, he would still be rightfully ranked below Elway, Montana, and Favre among modern era QBs, as well as some of the older generation guys like Unitas and Graham. And depending on how Brady's career progresses from here, he may well be ranked below him as well.

Nope. He's better than Elway, Montana, Favre, and Marino right now, in my opinion. Even if he was hit by a bus tonight.

How do you explain the fac that Favre has better numbers, has a longer win streak, has the same number of Superbowls, has more MVPs, more Pro Bowls, and has done it with substantially worse surrounding talent, if Manning is better than him?

I disagree with that assumption. I can see by your post below (wanting to see Peyton after Harrison retires) that you probably place far more weight on Harrison's impact on Peyton's success than I do. I don't think Marvin is a HOFer without Peyton or the system in Indy.

How much of Favre's success do you think came from Antonio Freeman?

How much more success could Antonio Freeman have had if Farve had anything other than a fastball?

 

[bostonfred]

Already is.

I disagree with this. If his career ended today, he would still be rightfully ranked below Elway, Montana, and Favre among modern era QBs, as well as some of the older generation guys like Unitas and Graham. And depending on how Brady's career progresses from here, he may well be ranked below him as well.

Nope. He's better than Elway, Montana, Favre, and Marino right now, in my opinion. Even if he was hit by a bus tonight.

How do you explain the fac that Favre has better numbers, has a longer win streak, has the same number of Superbowls, has more MVPs, more Pro Bowls, and has done it with substantially worse surrounding talent, if Manning is better than him?

I disagree with that assumption. I can see by your post below (wanting to see Peyton after Harrison retires) that you probably place far more weight on Harrison's impact on Peyton's success than I do. I don't think Marvin is a HOFer without Peyton or the system in Indy.

How much of Favre's success do you think came from Antonio Freeman?

How much more success could Antonio Freeman have had if Farve had anything other than a fastball?

 

[bostonfred]

And I'd have to see him win or at least perform very well in a playoff game in cold weather.

This is laughable. Are you suggesting that if he never does this, you wouldn't consider him the greatest irrespective of his other accomplishments?

Yeah, that is kind of unfair to say that, especially since Manning plays his home games in a dome, so any cold weather playoff road game he would have to win, would have to be on the road, which is difficult for any QB to do. And as awesome as Brady is, he hasn't exactly been lights out in cold weather playoff games, either.

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

 

[Ghost Rider]

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

Not at all. You do know that Manning has won several playoff games on the road, right?

 

[bostonfred]

JWB, yes, I think we'll see how Manning does without Harrison. He'll still have other weapons around him, including Reggie Wayne who has developed in that offense long in advance of Harrison's retirement, but at least we'll get to see some measure of how he does without a hall of fame talent like Harrison.

I think I misspoke when I said he needed to be the reason his team won a game. I think a better way of describing it is to say he needs that Heisman moment. I don't know how to explain it any better than that.

As for how the pass interference rule affects QBs, people used to complain that the Pats mugged the Colts receivers. Then Polian got in front of the rules committee, and Manning still struggled in the cold. It wasn't until he played them with the more favorable rules in a warm weather/dome environment that the Colts were finally able to beat the Pats. When the rules are enforced more strongly, teams have to err way on the side of caution. Over the next few years, there will be fewer ticky tack calls, and teams will play looser defense. Maybe Manning's record setting year coincided with the rule enforcement coincidentally. More likely, the two were connected. Maybe his ability to get by the Pats had more to do with his maturation. Maybe it didn't. I'm not saying there's a specific thing I'm looking for, I'm just saying that it's something I'll be observing in judging him in the pantheon of all time greats.

By the way, another ruler by which he will necessarily be judged is how he performs against Brady and the Patriots. If the top two quarterbacks of their era play against each other and it's a one sided affair, it'd be hard to call the one on the losing side the best of all time, especially if his numbers are poor. He's done well over the last couple years, after struggling badly the first couple years. I think one of the most fascinating plots in the NFL is to see how this rivalry progresses.

 

[Tau837]

And I'd have to see him win or at least perform very well in a playoff game in cold weather.

This is laughable. Are you suggesting that if he never does this, you wouldn't consider him the greatest irrespective of his other accomplishments?

Yeah, that is kind of unfair to say that, especially since Manning plays his home games in a dome, so any cold weather playoff road game he would have to win, would have to be on the road, which is difficult for any QB to do. And as awesome as Brady is, he hasn't exactly been lights out in cold weather playoff games, either.

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

At this point, we don't know if Manning will ever play another playoff game outdoors in cold weather. That is what is unfair about your statement. Where his future playoff games will be played is not within Manning's control, so it doesn't make sense to penalize him if it doesn't happen.

 

[bostonfred]

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

Not at all. You do know that Manning has won several playoff games on the road, right?

I do. So is the problem specifically that I asked him to win in the cold? Even in Baltimore last year, Manning was 15 for 30 with two picks and no TDs and only 170 yards. And that was in 63 degree weather. Why has he struggled in the cold (and not just against the Pats)?

 

[Ghost Rider]

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

Not at all. You do know that Manning has won several playoff games on the road, right?

I do. So is the problem specifically that I asked him to win in the cold? Even in Baltimore last year, Manning was 15 for 30 with two picks and no TDs and only 170 yards. And that was in 63 degree weather. Why has he struggled in the cold (and not just against the Pats)?

Probably because he plays the vast majority of his games in a dome. Flip this around...why has Brett Favre always struggled in domes?

 

[bostonfred]

And I'd have to see him win or at least perform very well in a playoff game in cold weather.

This is laughable. Are you suggesting that if he never does this, you wouldn't consider him the greatest irrespective of his other accomplishments?

Yeah, that is kind of unfair to say that, especially since Manning plays his home games in a dome, so any cold weather playoff road game he would have to win, would have to be on the road, which is difficult for any QB to do. And as awesome as Brady is, he hasn't exactly been lights out in cold weather playoff games, either.

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

At this point, we don't know if Manning will ever play another playoff game outdoors in cold weather. That is what is unfair about your statement. Where his future playoff games will be played is not within Manning's control, so it doesn't make sense to penalize him if it doesn't happen.

I'm not trying to be unfair here. It's not like if he leads the Colts to a 19-0 record every season for the rest of his career I'm going to say he's not the greatest of all time because he never won in the cold. But I do think it's a valid question, just like there was a valid knock on the Packers that they couldn't beat Dallas. When they finally did, people finally considered them one of the top teams in the NFL.

 

[tommyGunZ]

JWB, yes, I think we'll see how Manning does without Harrison. He'll still have other weapons around him, including Reggie Wayne who has developed in that offense long in advance of Harrison's retirement, but at least we'll get to see some measure of how he does without a hall of fame talent like Harrison. I think I misspoke when I said he needed to be the reason his team won a game. I think a better way of describing it is to say he needs that Heisman moment. I don't know how to explain it any better than that. As for how the pass interference rule affects QBs, people used to complain that the Pats mugged the Colts receivers. Then Polian got in front of the rules committee, and Manning still struggled in the cold. It wasn't until he played them with the more favorable rules in a warm weather/dome environment that the Colts were finally able to beat the Pats. When the rules are enforced more strongly, teams have to err way on the side of caution. Over the next few years, there will be fewer ticky tack calls, and teams will play looser defense. Maybe Manning's record setting year coincided with the rule enforcement coincidentally. More likely, the two were connected. Maybe his ability to get by the Pats had more to do with his maturation. Maybe it didn't. I'm not saying there's a specific thing I'm looking for, I'm just saying that it's something I'll be observing in judging him in the pantheon of all time greats.

IMO, Peyton was finally able to get by the Patriots last season because he finally played for the better team.

By the way, another ruler by which he will necessarily be judged is how he performs against Brady and the Patriots. If the top two quarterbacks of their era play against each other and it's a one sided affair, it'd be hard to call the one on the losing side the best of all time, especially if his numbers are poor. He's done well over the last couple years, after struggling badly the first couple years. I think one of the most fascinating plots in the NFL is to see how this rivalry progresses.

I agree - love the subplot and the debates.

 

[Tau837]

As for how the pass interference rule affects QBs, people used to complain that the Pats mugged the Colts receivers. Then Polian got in front of the rules committee, and Manning still struggled in the cold. It wasn't until he played them with the more favorable rules in a warm weather/dome environment that the Colts were finally able to beat the Pats. When the rules are enforced more strongly, teams have to err way on the side of caution. Over the next few years, there will be fewer ticky tack calls, and teams will play looser defense. Maybe Manning's record setting year coincided with the rule enforcement coincidentally. More likely, the two were connected. Maybe his ability to get by the Pats had more to do with his maturation. Maybe it didn't. I'm not saying there's a specific thing I'm looking for, I'm just saying that it's something I'll be observing in judging him in the pantheon of all time greats.

I knew that was your point. I disagree with how you described it but don't feel like rehashing all that.

By the way, another ruler by which he will necessarily be judged is how he performs against Brady and the Patriots. If the top two quarterbacks of their era play against each other and it's a one sided affair, it'd be hard to call the one on the losing side the best of all time, especially if his numbers are poor. He's done well over the last couple years, after struggling badly the first couple years. I think one of the most fascinating plots in the NFL is to see how this rivalry progresses.

I disagree. Manning doesn't play against Brady, he plays against the Pats defense. And Brady plays against the Colts defense in these matchups. So when their teams have played over the years, Manning is usually facing the tougher defense. I don't really see Manning vs. Brady as a rivalry. I doubt anyone really does other than possibly Pats fans. Now, Manning vs. BB could be a rivalry...

 

[tommyGunZ]

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

Not at all. You do know that Manning has won several playoff games on the road, right?

I do. So is the problem specifically that I asked him to win in the cold? Even in Baltimore last year, Manning was 15 for 30 with two picks and no TDs and only 170 yards. And that was in 63 degree weather. Why has he struggled in the cold (and not just against the Pats)?

Perhaps b/c the teams he's faced on the road in cold weather had very good defenses? NE, Pitt, Miami.

 

[bostonfred]

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

Not at all. You do know that Manning has won several playoff games on the road, right?

I do. So is the problem specifically that I asked him to win in the cold? Even in Baltimore last year, Manning was 15 for 30 with two picks and no TDs and only 170 yards. And that was in 63 degree weather. Why has he struggled in the cold (and not just against the Pats)?

Probably because he plays the vast majority of his games in a dome. Flip this around...why has Brett Favre always struggled in domes?

But he hasn't, and that's the point. He won a Superbowl in a dome, and had a very good game along the way.

 

[Ghost Rider]

And I'd have to see him win or at least perform very well in a playoff game in cold weather.

This is laughable. Are you suggesting that if he never does this, you wouldn't consider him the greatest irrespective of his other accomplishments?

Yeah, that is kind of unfair to say that, especially since Manning plays his home games in a dome, so any cold weather playoff road game he would have to win, would have to be on the road, which is difficult for any QB to do. And as awesome as Brady is, he hasn't exactly been lights out in cold weather playoff games, either.

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

At this point, we don't know if Manning will ever play another playoff game outdoors in cold weather. That is what is unfair about your statement. Where his future playoff games will be played is not within Manning's control, so it doesn't make sense to penalize him if it doesn't happen.

I'm not trying to be unfair here. It's not like if he leads the Colts to a 19-0 record every season for the rest of his career I'm going to say he's not the greatest of all time because he never won in the cold. But I do think it's a valid question, just like there was a valid knock on the Packers that they couldn't beat Dallas. When they finally did, people finally considered them one of the top teams in the NFL.

Okay, but that was goofy, too, since the Packers won a Super Bowl in the 90's before they finally beat Dallas. Are you telling me no one considered the Packers the best team in '96 because one of their three losses was to the Cowboys?

 

[Ghost Rider]

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

Not at all. You do know that Manning has won several playoff games on the road, right?

I do. So is the problem specifically that I asked him to win in the cold? Even in Baltimore last year, Manning was 15 for 30 with two picks and no TDs and only 170 yards. And that was in 63 degree weather. Why has he struggled in the cold (and not just against the Pats)?

Probably because he plays the vast majority of his games in a dome. Flip this around...why has Brett Favre always struggled in domes?

But he hasn't, and that's the point. He won a Superbowl in a dome, and had a very good game along the way.

I do not know his exact record, but I remember Favre's lifetime dome record being well under .500.

 

[phthalatemagic]

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

Not at all. You do know that Manning has won several playoff games on the road, right?

I do. So is the problem specifically that I asked him to win in the cold? Even in Baltimore last year, Manning was 15 for 30 with two picks and no TDs and only 170 yards. And that was in 63 degree weather. Why has he struggled in the cold (and not just against the Pats)?

You don't think you are whittling your source of complaints about Manning to an overly fine point?It's not just winning, it's winning in the playoffs.It's not just winning in the playoffs, it's winning on the road in the playoffs.It's not just winning on the road in the playoffs, it's winning on the road in the playoffs when it's a certain temperature (as of now unspecified)edit: I forgot! It's not just winning either! It's winning on the road in the playoffs when it's a certain temperature (as of now unspecified) AND he has to have good stats along with the win.What's next?He "won" a Super Bowl. He has amazing stats and if he keeps his pace he will own the records. He's been the QB of a competitive team for a decade now. What's next?

 

[tommyGunZ]

As for how the pass interference rule affects QBs, people used to complain that the Pats mugged the Colts receivers. Then Polian got in front of the rules committee, and Manning still struggled in the cold. It wasn't until he played them with the more favorable rules in a warm weather/dome environment that the Colts were finally able to beat the Pats. When the rules are enforced more strongly, teams have to err way on the side of caution. Over the next few years, there will be fewer ticky tack calls, and teams will play looser defense. Maybe Manning's record setting year coincided with the rule enforcement coincidentally. More likely, the two were connected. Maybe his ability to get by the Pats had more to do with his maturation. Maybe it didn't. I'm not saying there's a specific thing I'm looking for, I'm just saying that it's something I'll be observing in judging him in the pantheon of all time greats.

I knew that was your point. I disagree with how you described it but don't feel like rehashing all that.

By the way, another ruler by which he will necessarily be judged is how he performs against Brady and the Patriots. If the top two quarterbacks of their era play against each other and it's a one sided affair, it'd be hard to call the one on the losing side the best of all time, especially if his numbers are poor. He's done well over the last couple years, after struggling badly the first couple years. I think one of the most fascinating plots in the NFL is to see how this rivalry progresses.

I disagree. Manning doesn't play against Brady, he plays against the Pats defense. And Brady plays against the Colts defense in these matchups. So when their teams have played over the years, Manning is usually facing the tougher defense. I don't really see Manning vs. Brady as a rivalry. I doubt anyone really does other than possibly Pats fans. Now, Manning vs. BB could be a rivalry...

I see it as a rivalry, even if Brady has the advantage of playing against a far softer defense.

 

[Chase Stuart]

JWB, yes, I think we'll see how Manning does without Harrison. He'll still have other weapons around him, including Reggie Wayne who has developed in that offense long in advance of Harrison's retirement, but at least we'll get to see some measure of how he does without a hall of fame talent like Harrison. I think I misspoke when I said he needed to be the reason his team won a game. I think a better way of describing it is to say he needs that Heisman moment. I don't know how to explain it any better than that. As for how the pass interference rule affects QBs, people used to complain that the Pats mugged the Colts receivers. Then Polian got in front of the rules committee, and Manning still struggled in the cold. It wasn't until he played them with the more favorable rules in a warm weather/dome environment that the Colts were finally able to beat the Pats. When the rules are enforced more strongly, teams have to err way on the side of caution. Over the next few years, there will be fewer ticky tack calls, and teams will play looser defense. Maybe Manning's record setting year coincided with the rule enforcement coincidentally. More likely, the two were connected. Maybe his ability to get by the Pats had more to do with his maturation. Maybe it didn't. I'm not saying there's a specific thing I'm looking for, I'm just saying that it's something I'll be observing in judging him in the pantheon of all time greats.

IMO, Peyton was finally able to get by the Patriots last season because he finally played for the better team.

I don't think the Colts were the better team last year. The Colts were better than the Pats in '05, but the two never faced each other in the playoffs. In the regular season, the Colts smoked 'em, in Foxboro.

 

[bostonfred]

As for how the pass interference rule affects QBs, people used to complain that the Pats mugged the Colts receivers. Then Polian got in front of the rules committee, and Manning still struggled in the cold. It wasn't until he played them with the more favorable rules in a warm weather/dome environment that the Colts were finally able to beat the Pats. When the rules are enforced more strongly, teams have to err way on the side of caution. Over the next few years, there will be fewer ticky tack calls, and teams will play looser defense. Maybe Manning's record setting year coincided with the rule enforcement coincidentally. More likely, the two were connected. Maybe his ability to get by the Pats had more to do with his maturation. Maybe it didn't. I'm not saying there's a specific thing I'm looking for, I'm just saying that it's something I'll be observing in judging him in the pantheon of all time greats.

I knew that was your point. I disagree with how you described it but don't feel like rehashing all that.

By the way, another ruler by which he will necessarily be judged is how he performs against Brady and the Patriots. If the top two quarterbacks of their era play against each other and it's a one sided affair, it'd be hard to call the one on the losing side the best of all time, especially if his numbers are poor. He's done well over the last couple years, after struggling badly the first couple years. I think one of the most fascinating plots in the NFL is to see how this rivalry progresses.

I disagree. Manning doesn't play against Brady, he plays against the Pats defense. And Brady plays against the Colts defense in these matchups. So when their teams have played over the years, Manning is usually facing the tougher defense. I don't really see Manning vs. Brady as a rivalry. I doubt anyone really does other than possibly Pats fans. Now, Manning vs. BB could be a rivalry...

So your first argument was semantic, and your second argument is that nobody considers Manning and Brady a rivalry? I don't think I'm interested in pursuing this any further.

 

[bostonfred]

I don't think it's unfair at all to ask the "greatest QB of all time" to have won a playoff game on the road. Is it really that high a standard to call someone the greatest ever?

Not at all. You do know that Manning has won several playoff games on the road, right?

I do. So is the problem specifically that I asked him to win in the cold? Even in Baltimore last year, Manning was 15 for 30 with two picks and no TDs and only 170 yards. And that was in 63 degree weather. Why has he struggled in the cold (and not just against the Pats)?

You don't think you are whittling your source of complaints about Manning to an overly fine point?It's not just winning, it's winning in the playoffs.It's not just winning in the playoffs, it's winning on the road in the playoffs.It's not just winning on the road in the playoffs, it's winning on the road in the playoffs when it's a certain temperature (as of now unspecified)What's next?He "won" a Super Bowl. He has amazing stats and if he keeps his pace he will own the records. He's been the QB of a competitive team for a decade now. What's next?

? I've been pretty consistent about my "complaints" about Manning. I said after the Pats game last year that I was very impressed by his second half against New England, and that I'd be rooting for him in the Superbowl. After the Superbowl, I congratulated him for taking the next step in his career and pointed out specific things I thought he did better this year than in previous years. But I also think that there are flaws in his obviously great resume. We're not talking about whether he's a good quarterback, we're having the conversation about whether he's the best ever, or at least where he ranks in the list of the best ever. What more do you want? How can that not be enough for you?

 

[Truman]

Sorry, which 18 games without Brady?

18 games with Bill Belichick and the same core group of players that Brady won with, the #18 defense in the NFL (as opposed to the #19 in 2001), the same #1 receiver (Troy Brown) and a better #2 receiver (Terry Glenn, 79/963 instead of David Patten, 51/749). 2001's Antowain Smith and co. rushed for 1793 yards at a 3.8 YPC clip, compared with 2000's Kevin Faulk and co's 1390 yards at a 3.3 YPC clip, but neither team had a particularly productive running game. And Bledsoe passed for more in 2000 than 600 more yards than Brady the following year, so we can compare apples with apples fairly well. At first, observers attributed this to the so-called Ewing theory, saying that the team worked harder to make up for the loss of their superstar. But that theory doesn't hold water, since the same players have continued to play better since Brady took over, and new players, many of them castoffs from other teams, have continued to improve. It wasn't the defense - as I mentioned above, the Patriots defense was 19th in 2001 compared with 18th in 2000. It wasn't the quality of receivers, which went down. The running game improved slightly, but it was still mediocre with Antowain Smith. So the question is, why is there such a clear dividing line between the pre-Brady and post-Brady era?

This post is extremely disingenuous. The 2001 pats were a much worse team than any Pats team since then, and they got extremely lucky in the playoffs (including a victory with the aforementioned Bledsoe at QB).This is reflected in the massive turnover of players under Belichick which is unprecedented in recent NFL history. I would expect a Patriots fan to know this. (I would also expect them to give some credit to their Head Coach's ability to identify talent, or to their all-world defensive line)

What has Belichick preached since joining the Pats? Sure as hell hasn't been skill position guys, so why focus on them?

Take a look at the real core:

Matt Light - drafted 2001

Dan Koppen - drafted 2003

Steve Neal - drafted 20001

Joe andruzzi - signed 2000. Spent year on IR. Started 2001-2004

Willie McGinest - 2002-2005

Richard Seymour - drafted 2001

Mike Vrabel - signed 2001

Ty Warren drafted 2003

Rodney harrison - signed 2003

BB: Aside from a few strong years under Chuck Fairbanks in the mid-'70s and Parcells in the '90s, the Pats' drafting has always been spotty. Under Grier, it was horrific. His 28 picks from 1997 through 1999 resulted in just five legitimate NFL players (Brandon Mitchell, Tebucky Jones, Greg Spires, Damien Woody and Kevin Faulk) and only one Pro Bowl appearance (Woody as an injury replacement in 2003). Grier placed an emphasis on workout results and combine numbers, and the result was a bunch of athletes who couldn't play football.

AB: Belichick and personnel director Scott Pioli turned Grier's philosophy around 180 degrees, placing an emphasis on toughness, intelligence and functional football ability over athleticism. The result is a young, deep roster full of current and potential Pro Bowlers. Of the 31 picks made between 2002 and 2005, 24 are expected to be on this year's team.

http://www.allthingsbillbelichick.com/arti...atevolution.htm

Of the 53 players on the Patriots' 2006 AFC Championship Game roster, 43 were acquired after the team's first championship in 2001 and 28 were acquired since the team's third title in 2004.

The Patriots have used an effective combination of free agent signings, trades and draft picks to acquire championship- caliber players. Players drafted by Belichick and Pioli have earned a total of three Super Bowl MVP awards and nine Pro Bowl berths, while Tom Brady (a sixth round pick in 2000) and Richard Seymour (a first-rounder in 2001) are widely considered to be among the NFL's elite players. Veteran free agents signed by Belichick and Pioli include defensive co-captain Rodney Harrison, outside linebackers Mike Vrabel and Rosevelt Colvin and three-time Pro Bowl special teams captain Larry Izzo among dozens of other contributors to New England's championship squads. New England's trades have netted improvement in drafting position that led to the ability to exchange draft picks for key veterans such as Corey Dillon, who set the Patriots' singleseason rushing record in 2004, and Ted Washington, an important contributor to the 2003 title team.

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...o&bio=12539From before the 2005 draft:

Of the 44 players drafted by Belichick and Pioli with the Patriots, 31 are still in the league. From the last three drafts, 20 of 24 selections are still Patriots. The group ranges from cornerstone all-stars such as defensive end Richard Seymour, whom the Patriots traded up to select sixth overall in 2001, to unheralded center Dan Koppen, a fifth-round pick who started as a rookie after being chosen as part of a banner 2003 class.

 

[clwolf]

As of this day, Montana.

Future...probably Brady or still Montana.

 

[icehouse]

How can others hate on the defenses for other QB's (Montana, Elway, Farve, etc) when the only reason Manning has a title is because his defense was saving his butt unitl the AFC title game? I understand the pro Manning arguments, but don't diss the defensive help for the other QB's when Manning just won a ring with a higher intro-to-td ratio on the way to the SB....

 

[Truman]

Because:

- Every other QB has played with better defenses than Manning has.

- none of those other QBs would have even made the playoffs with last year's Colts D.

 

[icehouse]

Because:- Every other QB has played with better defenses than Manning has.- none of those other QBs would have even made the playoffs with last year's Colts D.

You don't think Brady, Montana or Elway could make the playoffs playing with all of the offensive weapons Manning had last season, in a division with the Titans, Jags and Texans?Have you seen some of the teams Elway dragged to the SB in the 80's?

 

[Truman]

I'm only 24, so not really, except on NFL Films, Network replays and in football books.

Looking over the numbers, it seems that the worst defense Elway took to the playoffs was the #15 scoring defense in the league.

Peyton has had the # 23, 2, 19, 20, 7, 15 and 17 defenses in the playoffs, including last year's historically bad unit.

Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[icehouse]

I'm only 24, so not really, except on NFL Films, Network replays and in football books.Looking over the numbers, it seems that the worst defense Elway took to the playoffs was the #15 scoring defense in the league.Peyton has had the # 23, 2, 19, 20, 7, 15 and 17 defenses in the playoffs, including last year's historically bad unit.Is there something I'm missing here?

No go back and look at the offensive help that Elway had when he was going to SB's in the 80's, then compare that to the perennial HOF talent that Manning plays with every year......It's funny that you are only concetrating on defenses and ignoring all of the offensive help that Manning has, especially when he just won a title when it can be argued that the defense carried the team in the championship run....

 

[Tau837]

Bump. In the four seasons since my OP, Manning has:

- Gone 51-13 in the regular season

- Gone 2-3 in the playoffs

- Won/earned 2 more MVPs, 2 1st team All Pro selections, and 4 Pro Bowl selections

- Thrown for 4000+ yards each season and averaged more than 30 passing TDs per season

So... more regular season dominance, more great numbers, more honors/awards... but no more championships and just 2 more playoff wins.

I ask again... best ever? If not already there, what does he need?

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

Bump. In the four seasons since my OP, Manning has:- Gone 51-13 in the regular season- Gone 2-3 in the playoffs- Won/earned 2 more MVPs, 2 1st team All Pro selections, and 4 Pro Bowl selections- Thrown for 4000+ yards each season and averaged more than 30 passing TDs per seasonSo... more regular season dominance, more great numbers, more honors/awards... but no more championships and just 2 more playoff wins.I ask again... best ever? If not already there, what does he need?

To not throw that interception in the 4th quarter against the saints.

 

[craxie]

If not already there, what does he need?

kneecap Aaron Rodgers

 

[Cassius]

Bump. In the four seasons since my OP, Manning has:

- Gone 51-13 in the regular season

- Gone 2-3 in the playoffs

- Won/earned 2 more MVPs, 2 1st team All Pro selections, and 4 Pro Bowl selections

- Thrown for 4000+ yards each season and averaged more than 30 passing TDs per season

So... more regular season dominance, more great numbers, more honors/awards... but no more championships and just 2 more playoff wins.

I ask again... best ever? If not already there, what does he need?

- Gone 2-3 in the playoffs

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Bump. In the four seasons since my OP, Manning has:

- Gone 51-13 in the regular season

- Gone 2-3 in the playoffs

- Won/earned 2 more MVPs, 2 1st team All Pro selections, and 4 Pro Bowl selections

- Thrown for 4000+ yards each season and averaged more than 30 passing TDs per season

So... more regular season dominance, more great numbers, more honors/awards... but no more championships and just 2 more playoff wins.

I ask again... best ever? If not already there, what does he need?

He needs 3 more championships were he is just killing teams. Making them fear him, like teams did against Joe Cool.

There is a reason why they used to have "Joe stay Healthy" commercials.

Because if he was healthy, you knew the other team was out-manned at the quarterback position, no matter who they had. And that still holds true today.

 

[chidoy]

Bump. In the four seasons since my OP, Manning has:

- Gone 51-13 in the regular season

- Gone 2-3 in the playoffs

- Won/earned 2 more MVPs, 2 1st team All Pro selections, and 4 Pro Bowl selections

- Thrown for 4000+ yards each season and averaged more than 30 passing TDs per season

So... more regular season dominance, more great numbers, more honors/awards... but no more championships and just 2 more playoff wins.

I ask again... best ever? If not already there, what does he need?

- Gone 2-3 in the playoffs

9-10 career in the playoffs 7one-and-done in the playoffs

 

[shader]

You just can't make Manning the best ever with his playoff record. Impossible.

He did win a super bowl, but as many have pointed out, he didn't exactly light it up that year. Defense played great and they played a pretty pathetic super bowl team.

He's top 5, maybe even top 3.

But best ever? Nope. He needs to win a few more super bowls.

Brady is in the mix too if he can win a couple more super bowls. His legacy has faded a bit as he has struggled recently in the playoffs.

Next season might be big for both players.

Interestingly, I think both players will benefit from a long lockout. Their teams will be ready to go. Many other teams with new coordinators and coaches will not.

Imagining my Titans against the Colts with virtually no off-season and a rookie QB......ouch it's going to be an ugly year.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Since playing quarterback is the same as playing golf or boxing or tennis, and Manning hasn't won enough championships, he can not be the greatest QB ever.

 

[Lash]

he already is

 

[SproutDaddy]

he already is

Says the Vols fan.It is beyond me how you can say this when he couldn't Florida, win the heisman, or win a national title. He's a great QB, but stats don't make you the greatest.

 

[daveR]

Since playing quarterback is the same as playing golf or boxing or tennis, and Manning hasn't won enough championships, he can not be the greatest QB ever.

 

[The Berry Man]

Since playing quarterback is the same as playing golf or boxing or tennis, and Manning hasn't won enough championships, he can not be the greatest QB ever.

It's not the same thing, people get that it's a team sport. But GOAT needs to be great enough to win more championships, poor teams or not. Manning will be somewhere above Marino, but below the other multi-SB quarterbacks who also have impressive numbers. Top 5, definitely, but not GOAT.

 

[wildbill]

he already is

Says the Vols fan.It is beyond me how you can say this when he couldn't Florida, win the heisman, or win a national title. He's a great QB, but stats don't make you the greatest.

Chris Weinke beat Florida, won the Heisman, and won a national title.