Multiple Scores
Footballguy
Where was Peyton on nfln top 100 all time? I only watched the 20-40 shows so far.
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Peyton Manning (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Tau837
- Start date
greggorymac
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
In the same timeframe, Brady - has a better win % in the regular season- has a better won/loss record in the playoffs- won/earned 2 more mvps- led his team to an undefeated season- set the td record- has thrown for more yards/season and more tds/season- led his team to a SuperbowlIf anything, Manning has fallen back in the race to catch Brady.
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
And? Your the only one talking about Weinke in this conversation.Chris Weinke beat Florida, won the Heisman, and won a national title.Says the Vols fan.It is beyond me how you can say this when he couldn't Florida, win the heisman, or win a national title. He's a great QB, but stats don't make you the greatest.
Saying Manning shouldn't be considered the best ever because he didn't do those things is like saying Weinke should be considered the best ever because he did.And? Your the only one talking about Weinke in this conversation.Chris Weinke beat Florida, won the Heisman, and won a national title.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
In his 1st 2 seasons (without Manning), Harrison averaged 850 yds and 7 TDs. His QBs were Jim Harbaugh, Paul Justin and Kelly Holcomb. Not sure how I missed this thread the first time around, but it's laughable to say that Manning is the best ever. Top-5? Sure. But not a clear-cut #1. Not even close.
Tau837
Footballguy
Manning may have lost ground to Brady in "the race" for where they will ultimately rank in the list of all time QBs, but he is still ahead of Brady.
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
No it isn't, and I never said Manning shouldn't be considered. I just don't consider him the greatest. He's always been quite the choke artist regardless of his career stats. To use Weinke in your argument is illogical. Was he even in the league more than a year? How many games did he start in the NFL?Saying Manning shouldn't be considered the best ever because he didn't do those things is like saying Weinke should be considered the best ever because he did.And? Your the only one talking about Weinke in this conversation.Chris Weinke beat Florida, won the Heisman, and won a national title.
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
No it isn't, and I never said Manning shouldn't be considered. I just don't consider him the greatest. He's always been quite the choke artist regardless of his career stats. To use Weinke in your argument is illogical. Was he even in the league more than a year? How many games did he start in the NFL?Saying Manning shouldn't be considered the best ever because he didn't do those things is like saying Weinke should be considered the best ever because he did.And? Your the only one talking about Weinke in this conversation.Chris Weinke beat Florida, won the Heisman, and won a national title.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Manning - Better career totals- Healthier career- More yards- More TDsBrady - Better win%- Better best season (TD record, best offense in NFL history, INT record)- Better playoff performance- More championships- Fewer INTsManning's a better accumulator. He's led his team to more yards, but while playing in a dome with better talent and playing from behind more often. Brady's had the better career.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Simple litmus test for Manning vs. Brady:
Pick a season for Manning, any season, and I'll show you a better season from Brady. Use any criteria you want.
Take his 49 TD season, for example. That was incredible! Oh, but Brady had 50 TDs. And led his team to the Superbowl.
But Manning had another MVP season, when he was co-MVP with Steve McNair. Brady's MVP season, where he set the INT record, and led yet another top offense despite losing all of their top running backs and their HoF receiver, was better.
What about Manning's Superbowl winning season? His 3 TD, 7 INT performance pales in comparison to any of Brady's Superbowl wins.
What about Manning's Superbowl losing season, coming off an MVP? Brady's Superbowl losing season, he was also MVP, and had thrown 50 TDs.
The closest one I can come up with that favors Manning is best rookie season - Manning's 26 TDs, 28 INTs was impressive as a rookie. And Brady effectively red-shirted his rookie year. But change the criteria to first year as starter, and Brady, after holding a clipboard behind Bledsoe as a fourth stringer, led the Patriots to a Superbowl.
Manning's an accumulator. It's really impressive accumulation, but it's just not as impressive as Brady's accomplishments in the same era.
Pick a season for Manning, any season, and I'll show you a better season from Brady. Use any criteria you want.
Take his 49 TD season, for example. That was incredible! Oh, but Brady had 50 TDs. And led his team to the Superbowl.
But Manning had another MVP season, when he was co-MVP with Steve McNair. Brady's MVP season, where he set the INT record, and led yet another top offense despite losing all of their top running backs and their HoF receiver, was better.
What about Manning's Superbowl winning season? His 3 TD, 7 INT performance pales in comparison to any of Brady's Superbowl wins.
What about Manning's Superbowl losing season, coming off an MVP? Brady's Superbowl losing season, he was also MVP, and had thrown 50 TDs.
The closest one I can come up with that favors Manning is best rookie season - Manning's 26 TDs, 28 INTs was impressive as a rookie. And Brady effectively red-shirted his rookie year. But change the criteria to first year as starter, and Brady, after holding a clipboard behind Bledsoe as a fourth stringer, led the Patriots to a Superbowl.
Manning's an accumulator. It's really impressive accumulation, but it's just not as impressive as Brady's accomplishments in the same era.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
I vote Manning.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Great stuff BF.
Tau837
Footballguy
Manning has had stronger peak seasons. He has been the best QB in the NFL 4-5 times, compared to 2 times for Brady. 4 MVPs and 5 1st team All Pro selections for Manning, compared to 2 and 2 for Brady. Also, while only 1 year older, Manning has started 65 more games. Regardless of the reasons, Manning has delivered a lot more value to his team through all of those extra starts, which have generally been played at a very high level. Manning has very clearly had a better career to date IMO.'bostonfred said:
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Really? This sentence doesnt even make sense. If he had the better talent then why was he playing from behind more often? You dont think the Patriots have had the better players over the last 8-10 years? Not only has Brady had the more talented teams, he has had the better coach. As a matter of fact, the Patriots having the better kicker is a big reason why Brady has 3 SB's instead of one like Manning. I cant imagine what Mannings numbers would look like right now behind that Pats Oline and Belichik running up scores. Manning is the better QB, Brady is better at being on a better team.'bostonfred said:
Cassius
Footballguy
Yes, well those of us who have watched football for longer than three years know that Manning has had far superior offensive talent around him throughout his entire career. The notion that Manning would have better numbers if he played on the teams Brady has played on is laughable.As for championships, Manning has had plenty of shots, and the main reason Brady has three rings while he is stuck on one is that he craps the bed in big games/playoff games whereas Brady has ice in his veins.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Spot on. Brady never had a RB as talented as Edge, and only briefly had Moss (whereas Manning had Harrison, Wayne & D Clark - all more talented than the corresponding receivers Brady threw to...minus the short Moss stint). It's impossible to argue that Brady had more offensive talent around him.Additionally, the Colts - while not as good defensively as the Pats - still had some pretty good defensive talent. Dwight Freeney, Bob Sanders, Robert Mathis, Gary Brackett. Not exactly junk. Oh yeah, they were also coached by Tony Dungy....if memory serves, people thought he was kinda a great defensive mind.
Tau837
Footballguy
IMO had Manning been on the Pats for his entire career, his numbers would probably not be as good as they are, but they would be better than Brady's have been.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Manning's averaged 7.0 ANY/A for his career; Brady's averaged 6.8 ANY/A. So you can't put forth the argument that Manning is the "accumulator."
It's true that Brady didn't really develop as a QB until 2004, but even if you look just from '04 to '10: http://pfref.com/tiny/oQ8FZ
On over a full season's worth of passes, Manning still has the higher ANY/A average, and by a decently-sized margin. Manning's stats have been better than Brady when it comes to efficiency, not just raw totals (although they're better there, too). Brady has certainly closed the gap, though, although that's partially because Manning seems to be on the downside of his career. If we looked at this last year -- from '04 to '09 -- Manning would be at 7.87 ANY/A to 7.26 for Brady. So 2010 really helped bring the two closer together in recent history.
It's true that Brady didn't really develop as a QB until 2004, but even if you look just from '04 to '10: http://pfref.com/tiny/oQ8FZ
Code:
Game Pass Rk Player From To Tm GS Att Yds TD Int Sk Y/A SkYds AY/A ANY/A1 Peyton Manning 2004 2010 CLT 112 3827 29943 232 88 105 7.82 643 8.00 7.622 Tom Brady 2004 2010 NWE 97 3166 24511 192 65 140 7.74 914 8.03 7.413 Philip Rivers 2004 2010 SDG 80 2455 19661 136 58 140 8.01 868 8.05 7.284 Tony Romo 2004 2010 DAL 61 2070 16650 118 62 106 8.04 660 7.84 7.155 Aaron Rodgers 2005 2010 GNB 47 1611 12723 87 32 124 7.90 800 8.08 7.046 Drew Brees 2004 2010 TOT 110 3913 29653 206 101 137 7.58 980 7.47 6.977 Matt Schaub 2004 2010 TOT 56 1987 15457 83 52 108 7.78 699 7.44 6.728 Donovan McNabb 2004 2010 TOT 91 3101 23199 143 66 211 7.48 1355 7.45 6.569 Kurt Warner 2004 2009 TOT 66 2382 17897 106 63 146 7.51 952 7.21 6.4210 Ben Roethlisberger 2004 2010 PIT 98 2800 22502 144 86 274 8.04 1821 7.68 6.41
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Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Brady's had three really standout seasons -- '07 and '10, obviously, but also 2009 stands out from the rest of his career (before remembering that he put up those impressive numbers against one of the hardest schedules in the league that season). Interestingly enough, he's 2-3 in the playoffs during those three years. To the people who argue that Brady is the clutchiest clutch quarterback of all-time, it's probably not worth asking them why when he's at his best his team wasn't as successful as when he wasn't as good.
Just to inject some venom into this discussion.
Please lets all just forget that Peyton manning has always had better offensive weapons (exception of 2007) and since 2006 the Pats D has found a way to be worse than the colts.
Brady has been more successful, set records that were equally impressive and some more so, with a lot less talent around him than manning.
Please lets all just forget that Peyton manning has always had better offensive weapons (exception of 2007) and since 2006 the Pats D has found a way to be worse than the colts.
Brady has been more successful, set records that were equally impressive and some more so, with a lot less talent around him than manning.
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
But in a QB friendly offense, and possibly while benefiting from cheating. Venom injection successful.
Cassius
Footballguy
Clutch don't mean perfect.
Pope Benedict XVI Fan
Footballguy
Would Brady swap his career to date for Manning's? Hell no.
Would Manning swap his career to date for Brady's? Maybe....
Would Manning swap his career to date for Brady's? Maybe....
bostonfred
Footballguy
If you really believe this, then you should be able to pick out some of those "stronger peak seasons" in response to this post, which was there when you made the above response. I'll assume you didn't see it:
'bostonfred said:Simple litmus test for Manning vs. Bradyick a season for Manning, any season, and I'll show you a better season from Brady. Use any criteria you want. Take his 49 TD season, for example. That was incredible! Oh, but Brady had 50 TDs. And led his team to the Superbowl. But Manning had another MVP season, when he was co-MVP with Steve McNair. Brady's MVP season, where he set the INT record, and led yet another top offense despite losing all of their top running backs and their HoF receiver, was better.What about Manning's Superbowl winning season? His 3 TD, 7 INT performance pales in comparison to any of Brady's Superbowl wins. What about Manning's Superbowl losing season, coming off an MVP? Brady's Superbowl losing season, he was also MVP, and had thrown 50 TDs. The closest one I can come up with that favors Manning is best rookie season - Manning's 26 TDs, 28 INTs was impressive as a rookie. And Brady effectively red-shirted his rookie year. But change the criteria to first year as starter, and Brady, after holding a clipboard behind Bledsoe as a fourth stringer, led the Patriots to a Superbowl. Manning's an accumulator. It's really impressive accumulation, but it's just not as impressive as Brady's accomplishments in the same era.
Tau837
Footballguy
The answer was in the part of my post you cut off for some reason:
I notice you also chose to ignore the additional 4 seasons' worth of top caliber QB play Manning has provided over Brady. He has played more than 30% more games, generally at a very high level. If one is to evaluate careers, that cannot be completely discounted, but it seems to be generally ignored by those who would rank Brady higher, or somehow lumped under an "accumulator" label, which is laughable.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Nobody's ignoring Manning's longer and healthier career. This isn't news. It's on my list of things that favor Manning. You're conceding that Manning hasn't been as impressive as Brady in their best seasons. You counter that he's been impressive during more seasons. What do you want to call it besides accumulation?Maybe you associate Manning's accumulation of stats with something negative, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Manning's been one of the best - arguably the best - accumulators of stats in an era where passing stats have been inflated. Brady's been the best quarterback of the era so far. Both have a chance to go down as the best quarterback of all time, but Brady's done more to earn that title so far.
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Tau837
Footballguy
No I'm not. How do you get that from a quote like this? "Manning has had stronger peak seasons. He has been the best QB in the NFL 4-5 times, compared to 2 times for Brady." In fact, you are for some reason saying I'm conceding something that is the exact opposite of what I said in multiple posts that you have responded to.
Using the term accumulator definitely minimizes Manning's accomplishments. And I'm quite certain that is your intent.
No he hasn't. Can you cite a single source that is not New England-/Pats-based that would agree with this statement? I know you might not care about that, but you are clearly biased, so we need objective sources. (And I am not biased for Manning; I am a Chargers/Rivers fan.) For example, NFL Network just ranked the top 100 NFL players of all time last fall, and they had Manning #8 and Brady #21. I certainly think their rankings had issues, so I'm not claiming their rankings were necessarily perfect. My question is whether any objective ranking has had Brady higher.
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That was before this years season, which further proved that without the weapons manning cant deliver the same success. Also that Brady (with belichick's direction) can take anybody and elevate them to the top most level.I would like to say that the only 3 things that should even matter in this discussion are: Individual Success, Talent around them and Milestones. But doing so would heavily favor Brady.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
I asked you specifically to show a season Manning had that was more impressive than a similar season from Brady. I asked you to pick your criteria. I've asked you repeatedly. You have repeatedly answered that "Manning has had stronger peak seasons", but you aren't backing it up in any way. You just keep repeating that he's had MORE great seasons. Not that he's had STRONGER peak seasons. You're the one making the accumulator argument, whether you intend to or not. You keep doing it, then getting mad at me for saying that that's what you'redoing. I get that you think his accumulation is impressive, because you've repeated it in just about every post so far. Here's your arguments in favor of Manning:best QB in the NFL 4-5 times, compared to 2 times for Brady4 MVPs and 5 1st team All Pro selections for Manning, compared to 2 and 2 for BradyManning has started 65 more gamesManning has delivered a lot more value to his team through all of those extra starts, which have generally been played at a very high leveladditional 4 seasons' worth of top caliber QB play Manning has provided over Brady. He has played more than 30% more games, generally at a very high level. Every single one of those is about his accumulation of good seasons. Every one of them. Now go ahead and show me how you've posted the "exact opposite".
bostonfred
Footballguy
Putting it out there for the third time since you said you aren't conceding this point.Simple litmus test for Manning vs. Brady
Tau837
Footballguy
You said I conceded Brady has been better in his best seasons. I have never conceded that, because it isn't true. I specifically said that Manning has been the best QB in the NFL at least twice as often as Brady. Best. QB. in. the. NFL. That's the best peak performance a QB can get. To me saying Manning has been the best QB in the NFL at least twice as often as Brady shows that Manning's has had stronger, or at least more sustained, peak performance.
And, by the way, Manning's best season statistically (2004) was clearly better than Brady's best season statistically (2007). Brady had one more passing TD but attempted 81 more passes. Brady had more yards, but Manning's ypa was much better, so again it was due to the extra attempts. Manning had a better QB rating. Brady's team had more success in 2007 than Manning's did in 2004, and you want to give more credit for that to Brady, and thus say Brady's season was better, but it's team success. Brady deserves plenty of credit for it, but not sole credit... the Pats had a great defense and a great coach that season in addition to Brady. Consider that the Pats' defense in 2007 was #4 in yards allowed and #4 in points allowed, while the Colts defense in 2004 was #19 and #29, respectively. The Pats offense certainly helped the Pats defense by running up the score early and often, but that's not enough to explain away this gap. It's apples and oranges to compare team success for these teams.
This is just one example. Your entire premise is off base IMO. But I think that is somewhat understandable... you have a bias and thus a desired outcome and thus you seek arguments that support your desired outcome. That's why I asked you if you could find any source that is not New England-/Pats-based that agrees with your stance. And I haven't seen one referenced yet.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Just addressed it. Your bias skews your comparisons.Putting it out there for the third time since you said you aren't conceding this point.Simple litmus test for Manning vs. Brady
bostonfred
Footballguy
You left out another important fact: Despite Brady throwing 81 more attempts, he threw fewer INTs (10 for Manning 2004, 8 for Brady 2007). And with Brady setting the INT record last year (the good one, not the Favre one), while Manning threw a dozen picks in a three game stretch, it seems like this was no fluke. Another impressive fact about that season is that, unlike Manning, who played with Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Edge for years, Brady was in his first year playing with Welker and Moss. It's hard to say how much they would have improved if they'd stayed healthy together for years in the same offense, the way Manning had the luxury of doing.
I'm glad that's important to you. Tom Brady has a better QB rating than Peyton Manning over their careers. 95.2 to 94.9. Interestingly, he's done this despite playing outdoors. Brady has a better passer rating by every split: indoors, outdoors, home, and away.
You're right that I want to give some credit to Brady for the team success. Manning throwing 49 TDs in a 12-4 season where he lost in the second round of the playoffs isn't "clearly better" than Brady throwing 50 TDs in a 16-0 season, and taking the Patriots to the Superbowl. But if you don't think Brady deserves credit for leading his team to an all time great season, then let's look at the other teams with a #4 ranked defense or better this year and see how many of them went 16-0. Were there any? What about the year before? Or the year before that? If having the #4 defense is a ticket to 16-0, then we can go ahead and dismiss the argument that Brady deserves credit for the team's success.
Of course, we talk about the Patriots defense in these conversations, and you want me to stipulate that Brady's success is only helped by his defense as much as you claim, and he doesn't deserve "sole credit" for it. But in 2004, Manning got a pro bowl season from Edge, three 1000 yard receivers including future hall of famer Marvin Harrison, as well as a young Dallas Clark and a pro bowl season from left tackle Tarik Glenn which also deserves mention. The
But let's get to the meat of your argument: The Colts didn't have as much success as a team because of their defense. But that's not the reason they lost in the playoffs. The reason they lost is because Manning threw 0 TDs and 1 INT as he led them to three points. It wasn't the Colts' defense that let them down, as you imply. It was their offense, and Manning's bad day. The Colts defense actually allowed a reasonable 20 points that day.
So let's go back over it:
Brady set the TD record
Brady had more yards
Brady had more TDs
Brady had fewer INTs
Manning had a better YPA
Manning had a better passer rating
Brady led his team to the first 16-0 regular season in history
Brady led his team to a Superbowl
Manning led his team to three points in a playoff loss to the eventual champions - Tom Brady and the Patriots.
Yet you claim Manning was "clearly better". That's fine - I guess I can't argue with your criteria for saying who's better if that's what you believe. But wait. What if I could show that you don't believe that at all?
If setting the TD record and getting more yards, TDs, wins, and Superbowl appearances don't matter, then why are they featured so prominently in your own post at the start of this thread?
Tau837
Footballguy
This is very clearly one of Brady's biggest positives in this comparison. No doubt about it. However, passer rating takes into account interceptions along with a number of other elements, and Manning's was still better. My read on that is that passer rating is saying that 9.9% TD percentage, 2.0% interception percentage, and 9.2 ypa trumps 8.7% TD percentage, 1.4% interception percentage, and 8.3 ypa... and I agree with that.
I don't think it's particularly hard to say. We're not talking about rookies here... Welker and Moss were veterans. IMO you are technically correct that more experience together could help, but the difference would have been trivial.
Out of curiosity, what source do you use for career splits?
As for your point, I'll be interested to see if Brady holds his QB rating edge once he reaches 7210 attempts... currently that's Manning's career number, while Brady's is at 4710. Hint: I doubt it.
Please remind me... did any of those teams have BB at head coach?
I believe BB is easily the best coach of this era and one of the few best of all time. I have posted on this before. I think his impact tends to be underrated in all discussions about Brady.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. I cited the TD record (at the time) as one of many things I mentioned in the OP. Of course I would list it as I listed the case for Manning. I didn't put any particular emphasis on it.
And in terms of "more" yards, TDs, wins, and postseason accomplishments, I was speaking about career accomplishments (e.g., he will likely end up as the all time leader in passing yards). How does that bear on the comparison between specific seasons for Manning and Brady? Talking about all time ranks in passing categories is obviously a career accomplishment, while comparing individual seasons is obviously not.
And, while regular season and postseason wins are team accomplishments, I addressed them because they are obviously part of the criteria used to measure QBs.
I posted this thread because of what I read in Sports Illustrated about Manning, as mentioned in the OP, not because I believe or advocate that Manning is the best QB of all time. I was seeking opinions from others on that. I personally think Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas are the top two QBs of all time, and I can't really rank one over the other due to the fact that their eras were so different.
That said, as I have posted multiple times, I think Manning is very clearly and justifiably higher in the all time QB ranking than Brady.
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Matt Cassel:2008- (15 games started)63.4% Completion, 3,693 Yds, 21 TD, 11 Int.2010- (14 games started)60.2% Completion, 3,001 Yds, 27 TD, 5 Int.2008 Colts:RB: Joseph Addai, Mike HartTE: Dallas ClarkWR: Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, Anothony Gonzalez2008 Pats (best offensive unit they have had ever, until 2011):RB: Laurence Maroney, Sammy Morris, LaMont JordanTE: Benjamin WatsonWR: Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Jabar Gaffney, Sam AikenEven the year that Cassel played on the best Patriots roster the Colts roster was still more stacked with talent.
In 2008Addai rushed for less than 600 yards, Hart managed to rush for 9 yards. Garcon caught 4 passes, and Harrison and Gonzalez had less than 700 yards. Clark had the second best season of his career and Reggie Wayne did well but that was about it.The 2008 Colts were not stacked.
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Cassius
Footballguy
Um, well the team went from being 16-0 and shattering some of the greatest records in NFL history to a middle of the road offense going 11-5. So if you're arguing that Brady was made by his supporting cast, that doesn't really make any sense.Not to mention that most people would agree that Brady's supporting cast got better later in his career, but Manning had a 5-6 year head start surrounded by offensive HOF/elite players while Brady was throwing to David Givens and Jabar Gaffney.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I meant to get back to you on this one since it was clearly important to you: http://top100.nfl.com/
Tau837
Footballguy
Another bump for this thread.
To resummarize Manning's accomplishments as of now, in 15 seasons played to date (excluding 2011):
Awards/Honors:
- 4 AP MVP awards (2003, 2004, 2008, 2009) and a virtual lock for a 5th (2013)
- 1 Super Bowl MVP award (2006); could win another for 2013
- 1 AP Offensive POY award (2004); could win another for 2013
- 1 Bert Bell POY award (2004); could win another for 2013
- 1 AP Comeback POY award (2012)
- 1 Walter Payton Man of the Year award (2005)
- 7 AP 1st team and 3 2nd team All Pro selections
- 13 Pro Bowl selections
Ranks among Regular Season Leaders:
- Led NFL in pass completions 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 12 times
- Led NFL in pass attempts 3 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 10 times
- Led NFL in completion percentage 2 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 12 times
- Led NFL in passing yards 3 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 11 times
- Led NFL in passing TDs 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 15 times (every season!)
- Led NFL in passing TD percentage (highest percentage = good) 1 time and finished in the top 5 a total of 9 times
- Led NFL in interceptions (most interceptions = bad) 1 time and finished in the top 5 a total of 3 times
- Finished in the top 5 in interception percentage (lowest percentage = good) a total of 5 times
- Led NFL in YPA 1 time and finished in the top 5 a total of 10 times
- Led NFL in AY/A 1 time and finished in the top 5 a total of 8 times
- Led NFL in YPC 1 time (his only top 5 finish)
- Led NFL in passing yards per game 2 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 11 times
- Led NFL in passer rating 3 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 10 times
- Led NFL in QBR 5 times (out of 7 seasons; data only available beginning in 2006 season)
- Led NFL in NY/A 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 11 times
- Led NFL in ANY/A 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 9 times
- Led NFL in sack percentage (lowest percentage = good) 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 13 times
- Led NFL in 4th quarter comebacks 3 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 6 times
- Led NFL in game winning drives 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 7 times
Ranks among Career Regular Season Leaders:
- 240 starts is #12 all time and tied for #2 all time among QBs; he trails Favre by 58, so it seems likely he will end up #2
- 167 wins is #2 all time; he trails Favre by 19 wins and is ahead of Brady by 19 wins, so if he plays 2 more healthy seasons he should end up #1
- .696 winning percentage is #4 all time, and it seems likely he will end up #4
- 5,532 completions is #2; he trails Favre by 768, so if he plays 2 more healthy seasons he should end up #1
- 8,452 pass attempts is #2 all time; he trails Favre by 1,717, so it seems likely he will end up #2
- 65.5% completion percentage is tied for #5 all time; the top several are tightly bunched, so his final ranking could move up or down
- 64,964 passing yards is #2 all time; he trails Favre by 6,874, so if he plays 2 more healthy seasons he should end up #1
- 491 passing TDs is #2 all time; he trails Favre by 17, so if he plays 1 more season he should end up #1
- 97.2 passer rating is #2 all time; he trails Rodgers by a large margin, but Rodgers has many years left to play and his rating could drop; on the other hand, Steve Young is #3 at 96.8, so Manning could slip if he plays more seasons
- 219 interceptions is #19 all time; if he plays one more season, he will probably move up to the 13-14 range; if he plays 2 more seasons, he will probably move up to the 7-9 range; he trails Favre by 117, so he definitely won't end up #1
- 270.7 passing yards per game is #3 all time, behind Stafford and Brees; it's possible his ranking could move up but seems unlikely to drop
- 7.7 YPA is #14 all time
- 7.68 AY/A is #5 all time
- 7.25 NY/A is #1 all time
- 7.24 ANY/A is #2 all time
- 5.8% passing TD percentage is tied for #19 all time
- 2.6% interception percentage is tied for #18 all time (18th best)
- 3.1% sack percentage is #2 all time (2nd best)
- 51 game winning drives is tied for #1 all time with Marino; if he plays another season, it seems likely he will end up #1
- 40 4th quarter comebacks is #1 all time; Brady is the closest active player with 31, so it seems likely he will end up #1
Post season:
- 3 Super Bowls, 1-1 record with 1 outcome pending
- 23 playoff games, 11-11 record with 1 outcome pending
- So far: 538/840 (64%) for 6,309 passing yards (7.51 YPA), 36 passing TDs, 22 interceptions, 90.1 passer rating, 24 rushing yards, 3 rushing TDs
My take:
No player in NFL history has a more compelling collection of awards and honors.
No QB in NFL history has been more statistically successful in the regular season, when considering both accumulated and efficiency based statistics. He has played at an elite level more consistently than any QB in NFL history.
Statistically, his 2013 season is the best QB regular season in NFL history (2013). Moreover, statistically, he has the best n regular seasons within a career, whatever you choose n to be. No QB has ever had better peak value.
He has been a consistent winner, with the 2nd most regular season wins and the 4th best regular season winning percentage all time.
He has demonstrated all the intangibles desired in a QB throughout his career -- good character, incredible work ethic, no off field issues, etc. He has always been the face of his franchise(s) and has been one of the key faces of the NFL.
Having gone to Denver, he has proven he can win outdoors and in cold weather, which should eliminate that criticism he used to receive.
His postseason results have been the only aspect of his career that has not been stellar. But they haven't been bad; he already has one Super Bowl championship and SBMVP award and has a chance to win another. The circumstances of winning this one would be particularly impressive, since it would mean beating the #1 defense in the NFL and one of the best defenses in recent memory, and it would also mean doing it outdoors in (presumably) cold weather.
Conclusion:
I have always felt that Montana and Unitas are the best QBs in NFL history. I have a hard time separating them since their eras were so different. I would put both Manning and Brady in the next tier with some others. If the Broncos win this Super Bowl, odds are Manning will have to play well and will win SBMVP. If that happens, I think he cements his place at #3 all time, at least, and possibly elevates himself into the top tier with Montana and Unitas.
Thoughts?
To resummarize Manning's accomplishments as of now, in 15 seasons played to date (excluding 2011):
Awards/Honors:
- 4 AP MVP awards (2003, 2004, 2008, 2009) and a virtual lock for a 5th (2013)
- 1 Super Bowl MVP award (2006); could win another for 2013
- 1 AP Offensive POY award (2004); could win another for 2013
- 1 Bert Bell POY award (2004); could win another for 2013
- 1 AP Comeback POY award (2012)
- 1 Walter Payton Man of the Year award (2005)
- 7 AP 1st team and 3 2nd team All Pro selections
- 13 Pro Bowl selections
Ranks among Regular Season Leaders:
- Led NFL in pass completions 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 12 times
- Led NFL in pass attempts 3 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 10 times
- Led NFL in completion percentage 2 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 12 times
- Led NFL in passing yards 3 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 11 times
- Led NFL in passing TDs 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 15 times (every season!)
- Led NFL in passing TD percentage (highest percentage = good) 1 time and finished in the top 5 a total of 9 times
- Led NFL in interceptions (most interceptions = bad) 1 time and finished in the top 5 a total of 3 times
- Finished in the top 5 in interception percentage (lowest percentage = good) a total of 5 times
- Led NFL in YPA 1 time and finished in the top 5 a total of 10 times
- Led NFL in AY/A 1 time and finished in the top 5 a total of 8 times
- Led NFL in YPC 1 time (his only top 5 finish)
- Led NFL in passing yards per game 2 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 11 times
- Led NFL in passer rating 3 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 10 times
- Led NFL in QBR 5 times (out of 7 seasons; data only available beginning in 2006 season)
- Led NFL in NY/A 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 11 times
- Led NFL in ANY/A 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 9 times
- Led NFL in sack percentage (lowest percentage = good) 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 13 times
- Led NFL in 4th quarter comebacks 3 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 6 times
- Led NFL in game winning drives 4 times and finished in the top 5 a total of 7 times
Ranks among Career Regular Season Leaders:
- 240 starts is #12 all time and tied for #2 all time among QBs; he trails Favre by 58, so it seems likely he will end up #2
- 167 wins is #2 all time; he trails Favre by 19 wins and is ahead of Brady by 19 wins, so if he plays 2 more healthy seasons he should end up #1
- .696 winning percentage is #4 all time, and it seems likely he will end up #4
- 5,532 completions is #2; he trails Favre by 768, so if he plays 2 more healthy seasons he should end up #1
- 8,452 pass attempts is #2 all time; he trails Favre by 1,717, so it seems likely he will end up #2
- 65.5% completion percentage is tied for #5 all time; the top several are tightly bunched, so his final ranking could move up or down
- 64,964 passing yards is #2 all time; he trails Favre by 6,874, so if he plays 2 more healthy seasons he should end up #1
- 491 passing TDs is #2 all time; he trails Favre by 17, so if he plays 1 more season he should end up #1
- 97.2 passer rating is #2 all time; he trails Rodgers by a large margin, but Rodgers has many years left to play and his rating could drop; on the other hand, Steve Young is #3 at 96.8, so Manning could slip if he plays more seasons
- 219 interceptions is #19 all time; if he plays one more season, he will probably move up to the 13-14 range; if he plays 2 more seasons, he will probably move up to the 7-9 range; he trails Favre by 117, so he definitely won't end up #1
- 270.7 passing yards per game is #3 all time, behind Stafford and Brees; it's possible his ranking could move up but seems unlikely to drop
- 7.7 YPA is #14 all time
- 7.68 AY/A is #5 all time
- 7.25 NY/A is #1 all time
- 7.24 ANY/A is #2 all time
- 5.8% passing TD percentage is tied for #19 all time
- 2.6% interception percentage is tied for #18 all time (18th best)
- 3.1% sack percentage is #2 all time (2nd best)
- 51 game winning drives is tied for #1 all time with Marino; if he plays another season, it seems likely he will end up #1
- 40 4th quarter comebacks is #1 all time; Brady is the closest active player with 31, so it seems likely he will end up #1
Post season:
- 3 Super Bowls, 1-1 record with 1 outcome pending
- 23 playoff games, 11-11 record with 1 outcome pending
- So far: 538/840 (64%) for 6,309 passing yards (7.51 YPA), 36 passing TDs, 22 interceptions, 90.1 passer rating, 24 rushing yards, 3 rushing TDs
My take:
No player in NFL history has a more compelling collection of awards and honors.
No QB in NFL history has been more statistically successful in the regular season, when considering both accumulated and efficiency based statistics. He has played at an elite level more consistently than any QB in NFL history.
Statistically, his 2013 season is the best QB regular season in NFL history (2013). Moreover, statistically, he has the best n regular seasons within a career, whatever you choose n to be. No QB has ever had better peak value.
He has been a consistent winner, with the 2nd most regular season wins and the 4th best regular season winning percentage all time.
He has demonstrated all the intangibles desired in a QB throughout his career -- good character, incredible work ethic, no off field issues, etc. He has always been the face of his franchise(s) and has been one of the key faces of the NFL.
Having gone to Denver, he has proven he can win outdoors and in cold weather, which should eliminate that criticism he used to receive.
His postseason results have been the only aspect of his career that has not been stellar. But they haven't been bad; he already has one Super Bowl championship and SBMVP award and has a chance to win another. The circumstances of winning this one would be particularly impressive, since it would mean beating the #1 defense in the NFL and one of the best defenses in recent memory, and it would also mean doing it outdoors in (presumably) cold weather.
Conclusion:
I have always felt that Montana and Unitas are the best QBs in NFL history. I have a hard time separating them since their eras were so different. I would put both Manning and Brady in the next tier with some others. If the Broncos win this Super Bowl, odds are Manning will have to play well and will win SBMVP. If that happens, I think he cements his place at #3 all time, at least, and possibly elevates himself into the top tier with Montana and Unitas.
Thoughts?
Pots
Footballguy
I feel that if he's close enough to your 'next tier' that one game plunges him into it, then he should already be there. I've got Manning and Montana neck and neck in the same tier at the top with this next game not changing a whole lot considering their body of work. Football is a team game and there's too much emphasis on QBs and Super Bowls when they're not the only ones determining the outcome. If Seattle wins is it because Russel Wilson is a top QB? Unless he has a spectacular game, probably not, and he's not the main reason Seattle is in the Super Bowl (just like how Kaep wasn't the main reason SF has been to 2 straight NFC championship games).
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Jrodicus
Footballguy
Just curious what your thoughts are now. The points you made about Brady's record-breaking season now apply to Peyton. Does that mean you know believe Peyton is better? If Peyton wins the big one the same season he broke all of the records, something Brady wasn't able to do, does that mean that Brady would have to do the same before he could be considered in the same tier?
bostonfred
Footballguy
Its a fair question. No, but it does mean that there's a conversation again. Let me explain why. The reason I made this statement wasn't because I believe that the best qb is defined by the best statistical season, or total career numbers, or postseason play, or ability to succeed in different offensive schemes, or ability to play at an all time level with elite receivers, or ability to succeed with subpar receivers.Jrodicus said:
Early in their careers, manning had the best season and career numbers, and brady had the other things on that list. It was an interesting debate. But at the time I wrote this post, that was no longer the case. Brady had passed mannings best season, and in fact had multiple great seasons that almost perfectly paralelled mannings best seasons. So when you put them side by side, all the checkmarks were on bradys side of the ledger except for career totals. And when I brought that up, nobody wanted to respond.
Now that manning had arguably the greatest regular season in nfl history, that's no longer the case. But that only moves a checkmark or two to his side. It doesn't wipe out the whole ledger, and it shouldn't. We have a debate again.
What can manning do with elite receivers? Set yardage, touchdown, and team scoring records. What did brady do with elite receivers? In his very first season playing with them, he also broke touchdown and team scoring records. Manning set the yardage record, stats inc scandal notwithstanding. Brady helped moss set the wr td record and gronk set the te record. They've both shown that they can do great things with great receivers.
We may never know if manning could succeed without great receivers. Its never happened. We know what brady can do. We know that he can lead a slants and screens offense as a "game manager", we know he can bomb away to moss and stallworth and work welker underneath, we know he can use a te heavy offense, and we know he can lead a ball control, run based offense where his leading receiver averages less than 10 yards per catch. We know that year in, year out, as the one constant on this team, the patriots are legit superbowl contenders, with 11 division titles, 8 afc championship appearances, 5 superbowl appearances and three wins and the best regular season record and most postseason wins in nfl history for any quarterback, and we know that he has, at times, had to singlehandedly carry the offense. We've seen manning put up almost as big win totals, a lot of postseason wins to go with a lot of one and dones, and lots of great numbers, but he's never carried the offense singlehandedly the way brady has.
Does that mean manning is definitively better or worse? No, and I'm sure people feel strongly one way or the other. We've seen this rivalry ebb and flow for years now, and when brady has the better year, people say he is the better guy, when manning has the better year, people say it was always manning. What this year did is make it a conversation again, where rightminded people can disagree. Prior to this year, it was getting hard to make the case for manning, but he's done a lot to improve his legacy with his incredible season, and has a chance to do more for it (or, with a legitimately bad performance, to tarnish it) when he plays seattle for the title.
cstu
Footballguy
I agree. People have no problem calling Montana the best QB in history and he had the GOAT to throw to.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I don't think its punishing him, although it does take away some excuses. If manning has a bad day in the playoffs, it isn't noteworthy because he's peyton manning. Its noteworthy because the guy throwing to harrison, wayne, clark and edge just threw four interceptions when he had a chance to go to a superbowl. That's a bad individual performance, no matter how you slice it.
But I think you can compare what he did with other qbs by saying, what would they have done with his targets, and what would manning have done in the other guys shoes. We will never know if manning could have succeeded with those miserable receivers on the patriots in 2006 and 2013. But we do know what brady could do the vert first year he worked with true stud wrs. He broke nfl records, just like manning did when he had a couple years under his belt with his guys. To me, that's pretty impressive about brady - he didn't just do it one year and fade away like a one year wonder, he did it in his only real year playing healthy with those guys, and with no chance to get to know each other. Who knows how much further he could have gone with them if he hadn't hurt his acl. Its fun to think about. Sijilarly, we know that mannings great season wasn't a fluke, either. We know they can each do amazing things when paired with amazing talent. But we've never seen manning succeed without that talent, nor brady fail with great talent. You can make the case that brady should have won that superbowl in 2007, but he had the lead with two minutes left. Its not like he led them to three total points the way manning did in his 2004 afccg loss, or threw four picks like he did in his 2003 afccg loss. Manning did those things with great receivers. That's noteworthy when we are comparing two great players.
But I think you can compare what he did with other qbs by saying, what would they have done with his targets, and what would manning have done in the other guys shoes. We will never know if manning could have succeeded with those miserable receivers on the patriots in 2006 and 2013. But we do know what brady could do the vert first year he worked with true stud wrs. He broke nfl records, just like manning did when he had a couple years under his belt with his guys. To me, that's pretty impressive about brady - he didn't just do it one year and fade away like a one year wonder, he did it in his only real year playing healthy with those guys, and with no chance to get to know each other. Who knows how much further he could have gone with them if he hadn't hurt his acl. Its fun to think about. Sijilarly, we know that mannings great season wasn't a fluke, either. We know they can each do amazing things when paired with amazing talent. But we've never seen manning succeed without that talent, nor brady fail with great talent. You can make the case that brady should have won that superbowl in 2007, but he had the lead with two minutes left. Its not like he led them to three total points the way manning did in his 2004 afccg loss, or threw four picks like he did in his 2003 afccg loss. Manning did those things with great receivers. That's noteworthy when we are comparing two great players.
