timschochet
Footballguy
My small contribution is almost worthless by itself. Care to go in with me?
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Planned Parenthood leaked video (1 Viewer)
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rockaction
Footballguy
Can't. Hoping to donate time and money this year so that somebody willing and abjectly poor might get an education in Africa.
Or I'll fight human sex trafficking in Eastern Europe and Russia.
Or perhaps give to the Red Cross.
Or perhaps Doctors Without Borders.
Or...
:shrugs:
Or pretty much any other activity that doesn't fund murder.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, I had a line about killing babies in there, but decided that was a bit over-the-top.
Happy to take that particular bullet for you.
SIDA!
Footballguy
I am thinking:
1. Spend less time here
2. Drive for Uber or do something else with the extra time
3. Donate proceeds
cstu
Footballguy
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
dhockster
Footballguy
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
tommyboy
Footballguy
#### getting deeper today. this is the 3rd video, and apparently there's 8 more coming.
its sickening:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw2xi9mhmuo
its sickening:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw2xi9mhmuo
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I guess what confuses me about that issue is, if you accept the PP position, why it's just not some specific amount ($x) and why they had to go to lunch to discuss it. The tone is blasé and disrespectful too. As usual the accusations cloud what is maybe an important issue underneath. The antiabortion group wants people to go to jail but really it's legal. I just don't understand why the discussion isn't short and neutral, over the phone, and for a predetermined cost. This is probably like Acorn (where I know they did good work her in NO) where they did not take care of business in terms of running things professionally. These are medical clinics. Just be professional.
It would be a good move if PP had their employees undergo sensitivity training and take medical ethics classes and if they opened themselves up to independent or state regulatory audits.
Another issue that might come up is the sheer numbers, probably some of these clinics deal in x-thousand corpses or the remains thereof each year. But let the people know what's going on, especially as so much of it is publicly funded.
It would be a good move if PP had their employees undergo sensitivity training and take medical ethics classes and if they opened themselves up to independent or state regulatory audits.
Another issue that might come up is the sheer numbers, probably some of these clinics deal in x-thousand corpses or the remains thereof each year. But let the people know what's going on, especially as so much of it is publicly funded.
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pantherclub
Footballguy
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
pantherclub
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Fennis
Footballguy
I agree that's the problem for people who are expressing outrage over this, it has nothing to do with fetal tissue and its use
tommyboy
Footballguy
tommyboy
Footballguy
Fennis
Footballguy
Fetal Tissue From Abortions for Research Is Traded in a Gray Zone
Videos released by an anti-abortion group during the last two weeks have drawn attention to a little-known practice: the buying, selling and research use of fetal tissue acquired from abortion clinics.
The group behind the tapes accuses Planned Parenthood of selling fetal tissue for profit — which is illegal and which Planned Parenthood denies doing. House Republicans plan to investigate. This may be just one more battle in the nation’s long war over abortion, but the dispute has raised questions about who the buyers and sellers are, what fetal tissue is used for and what the law allows
Scientists at major universities and government labs have quietly been using fetal tissue for decades. They say it is an invaluable tool for certain types of research, including the study of eye diseases, diabetes and muscular dystrophy. Nevertheless, some agree to talk about it only if their names and their universities’ names are withheld, because they have received threats of violence from abortion opponents. Companies that obtain the tissue from clinics and sell it to laboratories exist in a gray zone, legally. Federal law says they cannot profit from the tissue itself, but the law does not specify how much they can charge for processing and shipping.
The National Institutes of Health spent $76 million on research using fetal tissue in 2014 with grants to more than 50 universities, including Columbia, Harvard, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Stanford, Yale and the University of California in Berkeley, Irvine, Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. It expects to spend the same amount in 2015 and 2016.
Researchers say fetal tissue is a uniquely rich source of the stem cells that give rise to tissues and organs, and that studying how they develop can provide clues about how to grow replacements for parts of the body that have failed.
“Think of fetal tissue as a kind of instruction booklet,” said Sheldon Miller, the scientific director of the intramural research program at the National Eye Institute.
Stem cells derived from adult tissue may eventually replace fetal ones, researchers say, but the science is not there yet.
Eye tissue from fetuses has played a crucial role in studies aimed at finding treatments for degenerative diseases of the retina that are a major cause of vision loss in people as they age, according to Dr. Miller.
“We couldn’t get this information any other way,” Dr. Miller said. He said the eye institute bought fetal tissue from a company, created specialized cultures of retinal tissue from it and sent them to other researchers.
A university researcher who asked not to be identified because he had received threats that led his institution to post a guard outside his laboratory, said fetal tissue was extraordinarily useful because “if you want to understand how a tissue or a disease develops, you should go back to the beginning.”
Another researcher, also concerned about threats, said fetal tissue was essential in research to develop treatments for degenerative diseases of muscle, because “to regenerate tissues in a human, you need to understand how human cells work.” Animal tissue can take researchers only so far, they say, because there are critical differences in development.
Fetal tissue can be used only with the consent of the woman having an abortion. Some researchers receive the tissue from abortion clinics at their own institutions, or from tissue banks maintained by some universities. Many buy the tissue from companies that act as middlemen. Those companies pay small fees, usually $100 or less a specimen, to abortion providers like Planned Parenthood, who say they charge only what they need to cover their expenses. The companies then process the tissue and sell it to researchers for higher prices that reflect the processing.
The fees, which can run to thousands of dollars for a tiny vial of cells, do not break the law, according to Arthur Caplan, the director of the division of medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center.
“It appears to be legal, no matter how much you charge,” Dr. Caplan said, adding that there appears to be little or no oversight of the processing fees. “It’s a very gray and musty area as to what you can charge.”
Many researchers buy tissue from two small California companies. StemExpress, a five-year-old business based in Placerville, Calif., describes itself as “the largest provider of maternal blood and fetal tissue globally.” It also says it offers “special discounts to the academic community.”
Its founder, Cate Dyer, has a bachelor’s degree in sociology from California State University in Sacramento. She started StemExpress with $9,000. An article last November in Sacramento Business Journal said that the company had grown more than 1,300 percent in three years. Its revenue was $2.2 million, according to a report in August 2014 in Inc. magazine.
Ms. Dyer said that fetal tissue accounted for about 10 percent of the company’s business. She agreed to be interviewed on the condition that she not be asked about the congressional investigation into her company’s partnership with Planned Parenthood. Her lawyer and a crisis communication expert were present on the telephone interview.
She said the company obtained fetal tissue in accordance with the rules made by ethics boards at the institutions buying it, and the tissue has been used in studies of leukemia, Hodgkin’s lymphoma and Parkinson’s disease.
It employs 37 people, including scientists, lab technicians and phlebotomists. Most clients come from referrals, and seek hard-to-find cell types, she said.
StemExpress uses procurement technicians to obtain fetal tissue. “We’re collecting biohazardous waste, discarded waste,” Ms. Dyer said. “They go to a hospital or to a facility that does terminations and collect tissues from those waste products.”
Back at the company, lab technicians process the tissue to try to isolate the specific cell type a researcher has ordered — for instance, fetal liver stem cells.
“These cells are hard to isolate,” Ms. Dyer said. “These are hard processes, expensive processes that take millions of dollars of equipment. Just to attempt to do some of these isolations can cost us thousands of dollars, and it may not even work.”
The effort is reflected in the pricing: a vial containing five million frozen fetal liver CD133+ stem cells can cost more than $24,000.
The final products are shipped fresh or frozen. Shipping fees are separate from specimen costs, and an overnight shipment to Germany, for example, can cost thousands of dollars, according to Ms. Dyer.
Fetal tissue sales are not limited to cells in a vial. More than a dozen research papers published since 2012 acknowledge obtaining intact fetal eyes, hearts, livers and kidneys from StemExpress.
The other major supplier of fetal tissue, Advanced Bioscience Resources Inc., or ABR, is a nonprofit that has 12 employees and recent sales of about $1.4 million, according to a Dun and Bradstreet report. A 2013 price sheet listed charges of $300 a specimen for tissue from a second-trimester fetus, and $515 if the fetus was first-trimester.
Linda Tracy, a registered nurse and president of ABR, said in an email that her company’s prices reflect the time, effort and space needed to obtain the fetal tissue. She noted that because funds for academic institutions are limited, her company tries to keep fees at a minimum.
“Planned Parenthood is in no way making a profit from participating in a tissue donation program,” said Ms. Tracy, adding that the $30 to $100 acquisition fees mentioned in the first undercover video sounded “reasonable.”
ABR documents say its products have been used in H.I.V. research by medical researchers at the University of California, Los Angeles and the University of Southern California. Tissue from the company has also been used at Cincinnati Children’s Hospital and has been involved elsewhere in research on transplants.
A StemExpress brochure uncovered by the organization Center for Medical Progress, which was responsible for the leaked videos, contains an endorsement from a chapter of Planned Parenthood. It quotes Dr. Dorothy Furgerson of Planned Parenthood Mar Monte saying: “Our partnership with StemExpress is beneficial in a number of ways.” It goes on to describe contributions to “lifesaving research,” and its confidence that patients’ anonymity is secure.
But critics note several references in the flyer to financial benefits for clinics. By teaming with StemExpress, “you will also be contributing to the fiscal growth of your own clinic,” it says, a statement that some contend suggests clinics may be illegally profiting from providing fetal tissue.
George J. Annas, a law professor and bioethicist at Boston University, said, “What’s going on now is probably legal, but Congress won’t like it.”
Regarding the companies, Mr. Annas said: “They won’t be real happy that this is all out in the public. This threatens their business. Even if what they’re doing is legal, the law can easily be changed.”
Videos released by an anti-abortion group during the last two weeks have drawn attention to a little-known practice: the buying, selling and research use of fetal tissue acquired from abortion clinics.
The group behind the tapes accuses Planned Parenthood of selling fetal tissue for profit — which is illegal and which Planned Parenthood denies doing. House Republicans plan to investigate. This may be just one more battle in the nation’s long war over abortion, but the dispute has raised questions about who the buyers and sellers are, what fetal tissue is used for and what the law allows
Scientists at major universities and government labs have quietly been using fetal tissue for decades. They say it is an invaluable tool for certain types of research, including the study of eye diseases, diabetes and muscular dystrophy. Nevertheless, some agree to talk about it only if their names and their universities’ names are withheld, because they have received threats of violence from abortion opponents. Companies that obtain the tissue from clinics and sell it to laboratories exist in a gray zone, legally. Federal law says they cannot profit from the tissue itself, but the law does not specify how much they can charge for processing and shipping.
The National Institutes of Health spent $76 million on research using fetal tissue in 2014 with grants to more than 50 universities, including Columbia, Harvard, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Stanford, Yale and the University of California in Berkeley, Irvine, Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. It expects to spend the same amount in 2015 and 2016.
Researchers say fetal tissue is a uniquely rich source of the stem cells that give rise to tissues and organs, and that studying how they develop can provide clues about how to grow replacements for parts of the body that have failed.
“Think of fetal tissue as a kind of instruction booklet,” said Sheldon Miller, the scientific director of the intramural research program at the National Eye Institute.
Stem cells derived from adult tissue may eventually replace fetal ones, researchers say, but the science is not there yet.
Eye tissue from fetuses has played a crucial role in studies aimed at finding treatments for degenerative diseases of the retina that are a major cause of vision loss in people as they age, according to Dr. Miller.
“We couldn’t get this information any other way,” Dr. Miller said. He said the eye institute bought fetal tissue from a company, created specialized cultures of retinal tissue from it and sent them to other researchers.
A university researcher who asked not to be identified because he had received threats that led his institution to post a guard outside his laboratory, said fetal tissue was extraordinarily useful because “if you want to understand how a tissue or a disease develops, you should go back to the beginning.”
Another researcher, also concerned about threats, said fetal tissue was essential in research to develop treatments for degenerative diseases of muscle, because “to regenerate tissues in a human, you need to understand how human cells work.” Animal tissue can take researchers only so far, they say, because there are critical differences in development.
Fetal tissue can be used only with the consent of the woman having an abortion. Some researchers receive the tissue from abortion clinics at their own institutions, or from tissue banks maintained by some universities. Many buy the tissue from companies that act as middlemen. Those companies pay small fees, usually $100 or less a specimen, to abortion providers like Planned Parenthood, who say they charge only what they need to cover their expenses. The companies then process the tissue and sell it to researchers for higher prices that reflect the processing.
The fees, which can run to thousands of dollars for a tiny vial of cells, do not break the law, according to Arthur Caplan, the director of the division of medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center.
“It appears to be legal, no matter how much you charge,” Dr. Caplan said, adding that there appears to be little or no oversight of the processing fees. “It’s a very gray and musty area as to what you can charge.”
Many researchers buy tissue from two small California companies. StemExpress, a five-year-old business based in Placerville, Calif., describes itself as “the largest provider of maternal blood and fetal tissue globally.” It also says it offers “special discounts to the academic community.”
Its founder, Cate Dyer, has a bachelor’s degree in sociology from California State University in Sacramento. She started StemExpress with $9,000. An article last November in Sacramento Business Journal said that the company had grown more than 1,300 percent in three years. Its revenue was $2.2 million, according to a report in August 2014 in Inc. magazine.
Ms. Dyer said that fetal tissue accounted for about 10 percent of the company’s business. She agreed to be interviewed on the condition that she not be asked about the congressional investigation into her company’s partnership with Planned Parenthood. Her lawyer and a crisis communication expert were present on the telephone interview.
She said the company obtained fetal tissue in accordance with the rules made by ethics boards at the institutions buying it, and the tissue has been used in studies of leukemia, Hodgkin’s lymphoma and Parkinson’s disease.
It employs 37 people, including scientists, lab technicians and phlebotomists. Most clients come from referrals, and seek hard-to-find cell types, she said.
StemExpress uses procurement technicians to obtain fetal tissue. “We’re collecting biohazardous waste, discarded waste,” Ms. Dyer said. “They go to a hospital or to a facility that does terminations and collect tissues from those waste products.”
Back at the company, lab technicians process the tissue to try to isolate the specific cell type a researcher has ordered — for instance, fetal liver stem cells.
“These cells are hard to isolate,” Ms. Dyer said. “These are hard processes, expensive processes that take millions of dollars of equipment. Just to attempt to do some of these isolations can cost us thousands of dollars, and it may not even work.”
The effort is reflected in the pricing: a vial containing five million frozen fetal liver CD133+ stem cells can cost more than $24,000.
The final products are shipped fresh or frozen. Shipping fees are separate from specimen costs, and an overnight shipment to Germany, for example, can cost thousands of dollars, according to Ms. Dyer.
Fetal tissue sales are not limited to cells in a vial. More than a dozen research papers published since 2012 acknowledge obtaining intact fetal eyes, hearts, livers and kidneys from StemExpress.
The other major supplier of fetal tissue, Advanced Bioscience Resources Inc., or ABR, is a nonprofit that has 12 employees and recent sales of about $1.4 million, according to a Dun and Bradstreet report. A 2013 price sheet listed charges of $300 a specimen for tissue from a second-trimester fetus, and $515 if the fetus was first-trimester.
Linda Tracy, a registered nurse and president of ABR, said in an email that her company’s prices reflect the time, effort and space needed to obtain the fetal tissue. She noted that because funds for academic institutions are limited, her company tries to keep fees at a minimum.
“Planned Parenthood is in no way making a profit from participating in a tissue donation program,” said Ms. Tracy, adding that the $30 to $100 acquisition fees mentioned in the first undercover video sounded “reasonable.”
ABR documents say its products have been used in H.I.V. research by medical researchers at the University of California, Los Angeles and the University of Southern California. Tissue from the company has also been used at Cincinnati Children’s Hospital and has been involved elsewhere in research on transplants.
A StemExpress brochure uncovered by the organization Center for Medical Progress, which was responsible for the leaked videos, contains an endorsement from a chapter of Planned Parenthood. It quotes Dr. Dorothy Furgerson of Planned Parenthood Mar Monte saying: “Our partnership with StemExpress is beneficial in a number of ways.” It goes on to describe contributions to “lifesaving research,” and its confidence that patients’ anonymity is secure.
But critics note several references in the flyer to financial benefits for clinics. By teaming with StemExpress, “you will also be contributing to the fiscal growth of your own clinic,” it says, a statement that some contend suggests clinics may be illegally profiting from providing fetal tissue.
George J. Annas, a law professor and bioethicist at Boston University, said, “What’s going on now is probably legal, but Congress won’t like it.”
Regarding the companies, Mr. Annas said: “They won’t be real happy that this is all out in the public. This threatens their business. Even if what they’re doing is legal, the law can easily be changed.”
Fennis
Footballguy
I think a majority of people would rather have the scientific gains from research as opposed to throwing away the tissue.
dhockster
Footballguy
A pro life opinion here:
The underlying issue here is whether Planned Parenthood is profiting over the practice of selling aborted parts. I think it is likely they are due to the fact that they are actively trying to get intact organs because that is what the people acquiring the parts seem to want (and thus would be willing to pay a premium). If selling the parts is indeed profitable for PP, then they have a financial incentive to do more abortions to make more money to achieve the goals of the organization. A girl with an unwanted pregnancy therefore might be steered towards having an abortion when she might be willing to give the baby up for adoption. My feeling is that PP probably does try to steer woman towards abortion since they have no moral objection to it and it appears that it is profitable for them.
I don't think anything in the videos proves by the letter of the law that PP is profiting, but the videos certainly don't make PP look good. It will be interesting to see what else comes out if indeed there are 8 more videos out there. The people releasing them must have had some order in mind of how to release the videos to have maximum impact. This leads me to believe that the videos which haven't been released yet may have even more damaging footage.
Just my 2 cents
The underlying issue here is whether Planned Parenthood is profiting over the practice of selling aborted parts. I think it is likely they are due to the fact that they are actively trying to get intact organs because that is what the people acquiring the parts seem to want (and thus would be willing to pay a premium). If selling the parts is indeed profitable for PP, then they have a financial incentive to do more abortions to make more money to achieve the goals of the organization. A girl with an unwanted pregnancy therefore might be steered towards having an abortion when she might be willing to give the baby up for adoption. My feeling is that PP probably does try to steer woman towards abortion since they have no moral objection to it and it appears that it is profitable for them.
I don't think anything in the videos proves by the letter of the law that PP is profiting, but the videos certainly don't make PP look good. It will be interesting to see what else comes out if indeed there are 8 more videos out there. The people releasing them must have had some order in mind of how to release the videos to have maximum impact. This leads me to believe that the videos which haven't been released yet may have even more damaging footage.
Just my 2 cents
parrot
Footballguy
You don't bury the lead. If they had a smoking gun, we'd have seen it right out of the gate.
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spreagle
Footballguy
Planned Parenthood needs to cease and desist selling baby parts immediately. I don't care if this is a "profitable" business for them or not, I don't even know what profitable means in this case, their base cost for the parts at that point is zero, it's like getting a used car for zero then stripping it down for parts. Of course that's profitable, it certainly appears to be a revenue generator for them. If Planned Parenthoods whole schtick is that aborted kids are not viable human beings, then they have to live by their own rules and not sell viable human parts, profitable or not.
So what they should do ... give the parts away that's what ... that's their only choice imo.
So what they should do ... give the parts away that's what ... that's their only choice imo.
dhockster
Footballguy
Perhaps. But if they do in fact have 11 total videos to release, and they do it from most damning to least damning, then people start tuning them out pretty quickly. If you go the other way from least damning to most damning than each video builds further interest. Like I said, just my opinion. You could be right.
tommyboy
Footballguy
spreagle
Footballguy
This is not how its done anymore. People have learned that when you come out with the goods all at once the liberal media buries it and then it is forgotten. What you do now is dribble the story out with the best stuff near the end. If they came out with the good stuff first, the story would have been buried.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
tommyboy
Footballguy
initially PP came out and defended themselves against "racist" videos that were due to be leaked by this group. So this group instead started releasing these other videos. There's other bad stuff coming, trust me.
dozer
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
How many abortions does $200 get you?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
Scoresman
Footballguy
Five, plus you get the free t-shirt and mug.How many abortions does $200 get you?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Sweet! Do they run specials? Like buy one get one free?Five, plus you get the free t-shirt and mug.How many abortions does $200 get you?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
Scoresman
Footballguy
If you're aborting triplets, the third is free.Sweet! Do they run specials? Like buy one get one free?Five, plus you get the free t-shirt and mug.How many abortions does $200 get you?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
timschochet
Footballguy
Good for you matuski.$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
matuski
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
Hope it helps women in whatever services they need. If they are there for an abortion, I am happy to help them out in what must be the hardest choice I can imagine making.How many abortions does $200 get you?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I swear, no judging, but it cracks me up to see these PP guys/gals on the street asking for money when they already have millions. its like leaving a tip for Robert Kraft at a Pats game as a way to say thanks for all tge great football. How much money do they get from the Feds, the states and their baby parts business?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
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tommyboy
Footballguy
especially when they find out later that their dead baby was dissected for its profitable liver.Hope it helps women in whatever services they need. If they are there for an abortion, I am happy to help them out in what must be the hardest choice I can imagine making.How many abortions does $200 get you?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
One
Not Allowed In Mexico
SIDA!
Footballguy
It was definitely harder than choosing to not use birth control. That is for sure.Hope it helps women in whatever services they need. If they are there for an abortion, I am happy to help them out in what must be the hardest choice I can imagine making.How many abortions does $200 get you?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Imagine they were confederate flags.
timschochet
Footballguy
This is probably the worst analogy you have ever made in this forum.I swear, no judging, but it cracks me up to see these PP guys/gals on the street asking for money when they already have millions. its like leaving a tip for Robert Kraft at a Pats game as a way to say thanks for all tge great football. How much money do they get from the Feds, the states and their baby parts business?$200 donation sent.
Planned Parenthood has been good to people in my life.
Planned Parenthood is non-profit, and they never have enough money to pay for all of their services. Comparing the good work they do to Robert Kraft lining his pockets is...sick.
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