Planned Parenthood leaked video (1 Viewer)

[SIDA!]

Right. The organization that churns out aborted babies like a fast food joint churns out burgers is actually preventing more abortions?

Their business model is dead babies = $$$$$$. No way are they going to slow that cash cow down.

I don't figure I'm going to change anybody's mind in here, because most people simply reject something that doesn't fit their preconceptions, which you have demonstrated here nicely.

If you believe abortion is a holocaust where innocent babies get slaughtered by the millions, I'd expect you to be absolutely terrified that there's a chance the positions you are advancing will result in more dead babies. If you were more concerned with the politics of the Republican party and only used abortion as a tool to advance Republicanism, I'd expect you to brush anything off that doesn't fit your narrative.

I'll expect you to brush this post off in a similar manner.

so basically, if you are against abortion you need to just shut up about it because anything you do will actually cause more abortions to occur?

For those in this thread that are against abortion, please share what you think are acceptable positions/opinions to hold.

 

[Sand]

Right. The organization that churns out aborted babies like a fast food joint churns out burgers is actually preventing more abortions?

Their business model is dead babies = $$$$$$. No way are they going to slow that cash cow down.

I don't figure I'm going to change anybody's mind in here, because most people simply reject something that doesn't fit their preconceptions, which you have demonstrated here nicely.

Actually I think you are correct. And there is no doubt the right to an abortion has been guaranteed since ~1973.

However, is it too much to ask that this organization not take dead babies, dissect them, and sell the parts? At least then they are inside the "constitutionally allowed indifference" line instead of over it into the "depraved indifference" area?

Honestly, I think what they do with the donated parts is by far the best thing to come out of an awful situation.

And I look at the video of the doctor talking about this and equate it with Irma Grese's lampshades. Horrific.

 

[Fennis]

Is "selling body parts" the new "death panels"?

No, but word on the street is that medical procedures can be regulated now, is that true?

I think your inability to find ground to stand here is frustrating even yourself.

I do believe we have established that the medical industry can indeed be regulated. I don't think that's more than a square of grass to stand on, it's enough to plant that point at least.

PP donation of fetal tissue (and how much they can charge for handling) is regulated under a law passed by Congress in 1993. This law was supported by people like Mitch McConnell.

 

[matuski]

Right. The organization that churns out aborted babies like a fast food joint churns out burgers is actually preventing more abortions?

Their business model is dead babies = $$$$$$. No way are they going to slow that cash cow down.

I don't figure I'm going to change anybody's mind in here, because most people simply reject something that doesn't fit their preconceptions, which you have demonstrated here nicely.

If you believe abortion is a holocaust where innocent babies get slaughtered by the millions, I'd expect you to be absolutely terrified that there's a chance the positions you are advancing will result in more dead babies. If you were more concerned with the politics of the Republican party and only used abortion as a tool to advance Republicanism, I'd expect you to brush anything off that doesn't fit your narrative.

I'll expect you to brush this post off in a similar manner.

so basically, if you are against abortion you need to just shut up about it because anything you do will actually cause more abortions to occur?

For those in this thread that are against abortion, please share what you think are acceptable positions/opinions to hold.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything like that, but I'll humor you.

If you're against abortion, and you feel it is the murder of babies, I'd expect you to do anything possible to reduce the number of abortions. Unfortunately, the countries that share the conservative politics on this are mostly under Sharia law, and as it turns out making it illegal hasn't done anything to reduce the incidence in those countries. Women don't have abortions because it is legal and encouraged. They have abortions because they are desperate, usually because they lack resources. They have abortions because they are scared they won't be able to care for it properly. They have abortions because they can't make enough money to pay for child care, rent, and food.

Some things you could do that would be helpful, as an example.

1. Start or give to a charity that provides support to young, poor mothers, both before and after birth

3. Vote for people who want to provide government support to young, poor mothers

4. Find a way to get contraception into more hands, via charity or your voting habits.

Some things you could do that would not be helpful

1. Scream on the internet about how awful abortion is

2. Vote for people who want to repeal Roe

Some things you could do that would actually increase the number of abortions

1. Campaign/Vote for the defunding of one of the major providers of contraception to young, poor mothers

2. Campaign/Vote for no contraception in schools

I think abortion is a travesty. Just awful. I find the argument of a woman's right to her own body to fall very short, because there is another body who needs someone to speak for it. The problem is, most of the Republican positions will at best have no effect on the number of abortions and make things far more dangerous for the young, scared women that have them, and at worst mimic the law in conservative Muslim states that contributes to the number of abortions by denying access to contraception.

As a Christian who thinks abortion is awful, I feel like everyone on my team is trying to shoot hoops in the wrong basket. A lot of you guys seem to want to make the problem that you hate so much a lot worse, and I can't help but believe it's because you care less about the babies and more about scoring points for your political ideology. Because if you cared about the babies, you'd do something to help their mothers have a life they can fit a baby into instead of scream about socalism and welfare queens.

Nice work sir.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Is "selling body parts" the new "death panels"?

No, but word on the street is that medical procedures can be regulated now, is that true?

I think your inability to find ground to stand here is frustrating even yourself.

I do believe we have established that the medical industry can indeed be regulated. I don't think that's more than a square of grass to stand on, it's enough to plant that point at least.

PP donation of fetal tissue (and how much they can charge for handling) is regulated under a law passed by Congress in 1993. This law was supported by people like Mitch McConnell.

Look, I just speak for myself not anyone else, and I like to think I come from a place where it doesn't really matter who speaks for what. Mitch McConnell doesn't mean much of anything to me. - In the above I was suggesting that the ACA has established that medical procedures and the whole industry can be regulated, and abortions are just another medical procedure. However, let's leave abortion out of this entirely for a second. - I don't have a problem with the idea of tissue donation because as it's been pointed out it's the practice for other medical procedures and it's needed for research. When a child dies tragically I'm sure the parents can donate the child's tissue or organs for research, I'm sure this goes on. The only things I've suggested are: 1. regulate it, like actually do that; 2. that PP internally allow public, transparent audits to ensure it is complying with the law, just like any other medical facility, but maybe moreso due to the controversial nature of what it does; and 3. PP ensure its employees undergo sensitivity training and medical ethics training. Imagine this happened at a local hospital and these weren't just fetuses but deceased people, I think locally it would be a scandal because citizens would be asking who's running the shop and how and look what happens to their loved ones.

I also don't understand why such a discussion as we saw in the first video happens over lunch and wine. It takes a phone call, some research to ensure the buyer is a legit operation, and an invoice based on real costs which don't vary, to do this kind of grisly transaction, which I'm sure hospitals do. If PP runs medical facilities, which it does, then it shouldn't be pulling numbers out of the air, it should have a set of numbers that are pretty consistent based on the requirements of preservation.

I'm also not automatically impressed by the word "non-profit." I have seen a lot of non-profits that are shoddily run and where the directors self-deal. I think people and authorities are perfectly entitled to demand to see tax returns and see where money goes, how much is taken in and spent in revenues and expenses and how laws are followed. PP takes in $1.3 bill a year, that's a hell of a non-profit.

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

 

[matuski]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

 

[matuski]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

 

[timschochet]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

 

[matuski]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

Nonsense. The buyers are obviously making soup out of it.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

Well then treat them like tissue at a hospital. Do you think hospital admins get wined and dined and bargain with people who claim to be tissue or organ buyers? At least be professional and they should be open to transparency or regulation. I'm guessing any local hospital like Mt. Sinai or any public hospital especially would be open to the same criticism. Non-profits that get public money (especially over a half bill a year) should be opening their books and practices as well.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

 

[timschochet]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

Well then treat them like tissue at a hospital. Do you think hospital admins get wined and dined and bargain with people who claim to be tissue or organ buyers? At least be professional and they should be open to transparency or regulation. I'm guessing any local hospital like Mt. Sinai or any public hospital especially would be open to the same criticism. Non-profits that get public money (especially over a half bill a year) should be opening their books and practices as well.

I really have no idea how organ buyers operate. Who cares? I agree that any group that receives public funds should open their books to the public. I wasn't aware that PP avoided this.

 

[matuski]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

All employees, volunteers, interns, and board members must read and understand the Code of Conduct and agree to follow the standards contained in the Code in carrying out their job duties.

Well, thanks. That basically says employees get a handbook and are told to read it and comply with it. I think we know how that can go. - My question is are they regulated and inspected for compliance? When someone goes to a hospital or medical clinic they don't question what goes on behind closed doors. Are all PP clinics regulated and inspected by medical authorities, regularly, and certified at least yearly?

 

[matuski]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

By accepting/partaking in Medicaid - I guarantee they are subject to the same oversight any other entity is.

A quick google search shows that at least in Arizona, they are subject to unannounced inspections.

So you are good now?

 

[matuski]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

All employees, volunteers, interns, and board members must read and understand the Code of Conduct and agree to follow the standards contained in the Code in carrying out their job duties.

Well, thanks. That basically says employees get a handbook and are told to read it and comply with it. I think we know how that can go. - My question is are they regulated and inspected for compliance? When someone goes to a hospital or medical clinic they don't question what goes on behind closed doors. Are all PP clinics regulated and inspected by medical authorities, regularly, and certified at least yearly?

The handbook is no doubt reinforced in training... but keep painting yourself into that corner.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

By accepting/partaking in Medicaid - I guarantee they are subject to the same oversight any other entity is.

A quick google search shows that at least in Arizona, they are subject to unannounced inspections.

So you are good now?

Quick question and Mat please forgive me for this, but what about the Gosner clinic? Not only that but once PA enforced regs five more clinics shut down. Obviously they were not complying with such regs and Gosner was not complying (badly) for 17 years.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

All employees, volunteers, interns, and board members must read and understand the Code of Conduct and agree to follow the standards contained in the Code in carrying out their job duties.

Well, thanks. That basically says employees get a handbook and are told to read it and comply with it. I think we know how that can go. - My question is are they regulated and inspected for compliance? When someone goes to a hospital or medical clinic they don't question what goes on behind closed doors. Are all PP clinics regulated and inspected by medical authorities, regularly, and certified at least yearly?

The handbook is no doubt reinforced in training... but keep painting yourself into that corner.

The answer being....

 

[matuski]

Personally I also don't think we should be paying mothers for abortions, which is something PP said as part of its first defense. And I don't think that retrieval of tissue and valuation thereof should be the preeminent concern when abortions are performed because yes at some point it starts to look like a Hyde & Hare style tissue and organ mill.

Are you serious?

Mat, no, I don't actually think two older, unwashed, men in Victorian style dress are robbing graves and taking corpses fetuses to an Edinburgh hospital for medical experimentation.

But you do think that the preeminent goal of an abortion is to retrieve tissue and profit from it?

Just making sure you are hearing yourself.

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

By accepting/partaking in Medicaid - I guarantee they are subject to the same oversight any other entity is.

A quick google search shows that at least in Arizona, they are subject to unannounced inspections.

So you are good now?

Quick question and Mat please forgive me for this, but what about the Gosner clinic? Not only that but once PA enforced regs five more clincis shut down. Obviously they were not complying with such regs and Gosner was not complying (badly) for 17 years.

So you are fully aware that they are regulated, inspected, and enforced against. Cool.

 

[matuski]

The assumption that Planned Parenthood somehow slips though a crack no other medical entity does is an interesting one.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

By accepting/partaking in Medicaid - I guarantee they are subject to the same oversight any other entity is.

A quick google search shows that at least in Arizona, they are subject to unannounced inspections.

So you are good now?

Quick question and Mat please forgive me for this, but what about the Gosner clinic? Not only that but once PA enforced regs five more clincis shut down. Obviously they were not complying with such regs and Gosner was not complying (badly) for 17 years.

So you are fully aware that they are regulated, inspected, and enforced against. Cool.

If they are, it took PA quite a while (40+ years?) and a horrible tragedy. I think it depends on the state and the clinic.

This is from MO, they just got to it (Feb 2015):

Missouri House endorses annual inspection of abortion clinicA measure to require annual inspections of abortion providers is the first abortion-related bill to move forward in the Missouri Legislature this year.

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/news/state_news/missouri-house-endorses-annual-inspection-of-abortion-clinic/article_2064ae4c-a09f-50ff-a43c-ea68082cc802.html

Do you have any objection to this kind of thing?

 

[timschochet]

I do. All medical facilities should be subject to public inspection. But if clinics that perform abortion are subjected to special inspections as legislated by a specific bill, this suggests harassment.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

 

[matuski]

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

By accepting/partaking in Medicaid - I guarantee they are subject to the same oversight any other entity is.

A quick google search shows that at least in Arizona, they are subject to unannounced inspections.

So you are good now?

Quick question and Mat please forgive me for this, but what about the Gosner clinic? Not only that but once PA enforced regs five more clincis shut down. Obviously they were not complying with such regs and Gosner was not complying (badly) for 17 years.

So you are fully aware that they are regulated, inspected, and enforced against. Cool.

If they are, it took PA quite a while (40+ years?) and a horrible tragedy. I think it depends on the state and the clinic.

This is from MO, they just got to it (Feb 2015):

Missouri House endorses annual inspection of abortion clinicA measure to require annual inspections of abortion providers is the first abortion-related bill to move forward in the Missouri Legislature this year.

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/news/state_news/missouri-house-endorses-annual-inspection-of-abortion-clinic/article_2064ae4c-a09f-50ff-a43c-ea68082cc802.html

Do you have any objection to this kind of thing?

Why would these clinics be subject to more regulations than another medical provider?

Fairly obvious what the goal of such a bill is.. and it certainly isn't the well being of the women.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I do. All medical facilities should be subject to public inspection. But if clinics that perform abortion are subjected to special inspections as legislated by a specific bill, this suggests harassment.

It looks like yearly inspections by the health authority, what's so "special" about it?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Let's put it this way, if I knew that all employees at PP clinics were trained in medical ethics and they are inspected and regulated for compliance I would be happier with it. Are they?

Link

By accepting/partaking in Medicaid - I guarantee they are subject to the same oversight any other entity is.

A quick google search shows that at least in Arizona, they are subject to unannounced inspections.

So you are good now?

Quick question and Mat please forgive me for this, but what about the Gosner clinic? Not only that but once PA enforced regs five more clincis shut down. Obviously they were not complying with such regs and Gosner was not complying (badly) for 17 years.

So you are fully aware that they are regulated, inspected, and enforced against. Cool.

If they are, it took PA quite a while (40+ years?) and a horrible tragedy. I think it depends on the state and the clinic.

This is from MO, they just got to it (Feb 2015):

Missouri House endorses annual inspection of abortion clinicA measure to require annual inspections of abortion providers is the first abortion-related bill to move forward in the Missouri Legislature this year.

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/news/state_news/missouri-house-endorses-annual-inspection-of-abortion-clinic/article_2064ae4c-a09f-50ff-a43c-ea68082cc802.html

Do you have any objection to this kind of thing?

Why would these clinics be subject to more regulations than another medical provider?

Fairly obvious what the goal of such a bill is.. and it certainly isn't the well being of the women.

Because they're not subject to actual regulation and inspection like other medical providers.

 

[matuski]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

SHOW ME YOU BIRTH CERTIFICATE!!!

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

Let's try this again - in response to these dastardly accusations why doesn't the local PP clinic at issue just provide their latest inspection report and show they passed all regs? That seems really simple.

 

[timschochet]

I do. All medical facilities should be subject to public inspection. But if clinics that perform abortion are subjected to special inspections as legislated by a specific bill, this suggests harassment.

It looks like yearly inspections by the health authority, what's so "special" about it?

Since all medical facilities are already subject to inspections and since this is a separate bill, I suspect there are ulterior motives.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

SHOW ME YOU BIRTH CERTIFICATE!!!

If Obama showed up to perform your knee surgery I'm guessing you personally would want to know he was certified to do so, yes.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I do. All medical facilities should be subject to public inspection. But if clinics that perform abortion are subjected to special inspections as legislated by a specific bill, this suggests harassment.

It looks like yearly inspections by the health authority, what's so "special" about it?

Since all medical facilities are already subject to inspections and since this is a separate bill, I suspect there are ulterior motives.

It doesn't sound like they are. And yes sorry see Gosner and the five clinics that failed to meet inspections after.

 

[timschochet]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

Let's try this again - in response to tehse dastardly accusations why doesn't the local PP clinic at issue just provide their latest nspection report and show they passed all regs? That seems really simple.

Have they refused to do this?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

Let's try this again - in response to these dastardly accusations why doesn't the local PP clinic at issue just provide their latest nspection report and show they passed all regs? That seems really simple.

Have they refused to do this?

I don't know it's a good question. I don't know they have, you don't know they haven't. I'm just saying it would be simple enough to do.

eta - My guess is they are nowhere nearly as regulated or as well administered as almost every hospital on this issue.

 

[timschochet]

I doubt it would satisfy anyone critical of PP.

 

[matuski]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

Let's try this again - in response to tehse dastardly accusations why doesn't the local PP clinic at issue just provide their latest nspection report and show they passed all regs? That seems really simple.

Ah, I see.. my company has not had such an inspection in 7 years.

Are you implying that is an issue? If so, is that our fault? We certainly haven't barred anyone from such a visit.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I doubt it would satisfy anyone critical of PP.

Well that's really the point here, isn't it? Satisfying critics? The point isn't really ensuring that PP and abortion clinics meet state health standards.

 

[timschochet]

I doubt it would satisfy anyone critical of PP.

Well that's really the point here, isn't it? Satisfying critics? The point isn't really ensuring that PP and abortion clinics meet state health standards.

Who is saying they don't? I haven't read anyone, besides you, making that accusation.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

Let's try this again - in response to tehse dastardly accusations why doesn't the local PP clinic at issue just provide their latest nspection report and show they passed all regs? That seems really simple.

Ah, I see.. my company has not had such an inspection in 7 years.

Are you implying that is an issue? If so, is that our fault? We certainly haven't barred anyone from such a visit.

Okay... I don't know what line of work you're in. I'm sure you work in a very great safe place. Does that ensure that other locations in your line of work are safe? I don't see the objection here, we hear about this kind of stuff in mining and oil and gas all the time, there's an explosion and guess what the mining bureau or dept of environmental quality hadn't inspected in 7 years. See BP, etc.

look I'm just offering a solution. Inspect them, certify them. Like I said I don't think going to lunch over wine and saying oh preserved tissue is 25.... no 50.... no 100 dollars is an appropriate way to handle these issues at any hospital or clinic. Hell maybe it's bigger than PP. Why are they even talking to someone who even pretends to be an organ/tissue dealer? This isn't something you check on first?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I doubt it would satisfy anyone critical of PP.

Well that's really the point here, isn't it? Satisfying critics? The point isn't really ensuring that PP and abortion clinics meet state health standards.

Who is saying they don't? I haven't read anyone, besides you, making that accusation.

Accusation? I'm saying they should have it ready and it would solve a lot of issues.

 

[matuski]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

Let's try this again - in response to tehse dastardly accusations why doesn't the local PP clinic at issue just provide their latest nspection report and show they passed all regs? That seems really simple.

Ah, I see.. my company has not had such an inspection in 7 years.

Are you implying that is an issue? If so, is that our fault? We certainly haven't barred anyone from such a visit.

Okay... I don't know what line of work you're in. I'm sure you work in a very great safe place. Does that ensure that other locations in your line of work are safe? I don't see the objection here, we hear about this kind of stuff in mining and oil and gas all the time, there's an explosion and guess what the mining bureau or dept of environmental quality hadn't inspected in 7 years. See BP, etc.

look I'm just offering a solution. Inspect them, certify them. Like I said I don't think going to lunch over wine and saying oh preserved tissue is 25.... no 50.... no 100 dollars is an appropriate way to handle these issues at any hospital or clinic. Hell maybe it's bigger than PP. Why are they even talking to someone who even pretends to be an organ/tissue dealer? This isn't something you check on first?

You are seriously misrepresenting how this plays out... no doubt as a result of your holding fast to terrible assumptions.

I have sold human tissue (along with bovine and porcine). I work for a large Medical Device company. There are very strict and set standards for the tissue to be harvested, prepared, kept, sold, used.

Kind of hard to "pretend", and I have never even heard rumors of a black market for it in the US.

Again with the inspections - we are subject to them, we don't schedule them. They inspect us when they inspect us, same as any other.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Or let's put it this way, if whatever state that PP clinic in the video is in goes in on a yearly basis and does an inspection and looks into the issue and says that PP clinic is following state health regs on handling and disposing of tissue that would make me happier. Shouldn't PP and supporters instead of jumping through these hoops just provide the 2014 or 2015 health authority inspection report that shows they were complying with state health regs in this regard? I sure as hell hope my local hospital can do this, I bet they can.

Let's try this again - in response to tehse dastardly accusations why doesn't the local PP clinic at issue just provide their latest nspection report and show they passed all regs? That seems really simple.

Ah, I see.. my company has not had such an inspection in 7 years.

Are you implying that is an issue? If so, is that our fault? We certainly haven't barred anyone from such a visit.

Okay... I don't know what line of work you're in. I'm sure you work in a very great safe place. Does that ensure that other locations in your line of work are safe? I don't see the objection here, we hear about this kind of stuff in mining and oil and gas all the time, there's an explosion and guess what the mining bureau or dept of environmental quality hadn't inspected in 7 years. See BP, etc.

look I'm just offering a solution. Inspect them, certify them. Like I said I don't think going to lunch over wine and saying oh preserved tissue is 25.... no 50.... no 100 dollars is an appropriate way to handle these issues at any hospital or clinic. Hell maybe it's bigger than PP. Why are they even talking to someone who even pretends to be an organ/tissue dealer? This isn't something you check on first?

You are seriously misrepresenting how this plays out... no doubt as a result of your holding fast to terrible assumptions.

I have sold human tissue (along with bovine and porcine). I work for a large Medical Device company. There are very strict and set standards for the tissue to be harvested, prepared, kept, sold, used.

Kind of hard to "pretend", and I have never even heard rumors of a black market for it in the US.

Again with the inspections - we are subject to them, we don't schedule them. They inspect us when they inspect us, same as any other.

And I have done work with medical device companies, though I don't know about this issue specifically (aside from preservation and transfer of tissue). But I think we both know at a minimum yes every so often there are federal inspections or audits. Which is great, actually I think we all love it. And you know they keep all that stuff on file. If someone wants to know the last time their facilities were inspected someone in Regulatory or QA could go to a file drawer or pull it up off their network and say, this x site was inspected for y and z on such and such a date, and here are the specs. - I was just saying it would be good for this PP clinic itself, and all of us and their patients, if they could say and do the same thing and especially if the inspections covered procedures for tissue disposal.

I'm guessing though no one from any medical company takes a call from random guy who pretends to be from a random tissue transfer company, then goes out to lunch with him, lets him buy lunch and wine, then negotiates a price out of the air for what it is they are doing. I am almost certain that is not the case.

 

[Steve Tasker]

That sounds reasonable.

But its not.

Why are PP immune from criticism by so many in this thread? It boggles my mind. Do they do a lot of good? Sure probably so. But if they also do things that are appalling they need to be called out for it.

Does "supporting the side" of PP mean you blindly accept any and all negative actions, just because they happen to do some good works?

The problem is that the threshold of what you find appalling and I find appalling is probably wildly different in this instance. You may find the videos presented thus far to be appalling. I don't. That's not to say that none of them will be appalling to me, but what has been released thus far hasn't been. I also make it a point to consider the source, and frankly I do not consider the Center for Medical Progress to be a particularly compelling source at this time.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything like that, but I'll humor you.

If you're against abortion, and you feel it is the murder of babies, I'd expect you to do anything possible to reduce the number of abortions. Unfortunately, the countries that share the conservative politics on this are mostly under Sharia law, and as it turns out making it illegal hasn't done anything to reduce the incidence in those countries. Women don't have abortions because it is legal and encouraged. They have abortions because they are desperate, usually because they lack resources. They have abortions because they are scared they won't be able to care for it properly. They have abortions because they can't make enough money to pay for child care, rent, and food.

Some things you could do that would be helpful, as an example.

1. Start or give to a charity that provides support to young, poor mothers, both before and after birth

3. Vote for people who want to provide government support to young, poor mothers

4. Find a way to get contraception into more hands, via charity or your voting habits.

Some things you could do that would not be helpful

1. Scream on the internet about how awful abortion is

2. Vote for people who want to repeal Roe

Some things you could do that would actually increase the number of abortions

1. Campaign/Vote for the defunding of one of the major providers of contraception to young, poor mothers

2. Campaign/Vote for no contraception in schools

I think abortion is a travesty. Just awful. I find the argument of a woman's right to her own body to fall very short, because there is another body who needs someone to speak for it. The problem is, most of the Republican positions will at best have no effect on the number of abortions and make things far more dangerous for the young, scared women that have them, and at worst mimic the law in conservative Muslim states that contributes to the number of abortions by denying access to contraception.

As a Christian who thinks abortion is awful, I feel like everyone on my team is trying to shoot hoops in the wrong basket. A lot of you guys seem to want to make the problem that you hate so much a lot worse, and I can't help but believe it's because you care less about the babies and more about scoring points for your political ideology. Because if you cared about the babies, you'd do something to help their mothers have a life they can fit a baby into instead of scream about socalism and welfare queens.

:greatposting:

 

[Steve Tasker]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

Well then treat them like tissue at a hospital. Do you think hospital admins get wined and dined and bargain with people who claim to be tissue or organ buyers? At least be professional and they should be open to transparency or regulation. I'm guessing any local hospital like Mt. Sinai or any public hospital especially would be open to the same criticism. Non-profits that get public money (especially over a half bill a year) should be opening their books and practices as well.

Is this accurate that PP is not fiscally transparent? Any non-profit in New York in particular (only state that I am familiar with offhand) is required to have a full independent financial statement audit if their revenues from all sources exceed $250,000. I know there are federal requirements as well when an organization is big enough.

I am not sure about other states' rules and not sure how Planned Parenthood is legally organized/structured, but I would imagine their various organizations have to be subject to some pretty strict financial reporting, no? And also, all 990s (non-profit tax returns) are public record and can be retrieved with a FOIA request.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

Well then treat them like tissue at a hospital. Do you think hospital admins get wined and dined and bargain with people who claim to be tissue or organ buyers? At least be professional and they should be open to transparency or regulation. I'm guessing any local hospital like Mt. Sinai or any public hospital especially would be open to the same criticism. Non-profits that get public money (especially over a half bill a year) should be opening their books and practices as well.

Is this accurate that PP is not fiscally transparent? Any non-profit in New York in particular (only state that I am familiar with offhand) is required to have a full independent financial statement audit if their revenues from all sources exceed $250,000. I know there are federal requirements as well when an organization is big enough.

I am not sure about other states' rules and not sure how Planned Parenthood is legally organized/structured, but I would imagine their various organizations have to be subject to some pretty strict financial reporting, no? And also, all 990s (non-profit tax returns) are public record and can be retrieved with a FOIA request.

I'm not saying they aren't I'm saying they should be. I noticed in searching that in NYC the PP national entity has an Annual Report online, which is good. Mat posted their Code of Conduct, also great. But each clinic is its own nonprofit. How many PP clinics are there? You live in NY, I bet there is more corporate and nonprofit compliance there. In LA and NO, not so much. What about the PP clinic where the first video was filmed, are their tax returns, annual report and code of conduct online? They should be. I just don't think there's anything magic to the word "nonprofit."

 

[Steve Tasker]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

Well then treat them like tissue at a hospital. Do you think hospital admins get wined and dined and bargain with people who claim to be tissue or organ buyers? At least be professional and they should be open to transparency or regulation. I'm guessing any local hospital like Mt. Sinai or any public hospital especially would be open to the same criticism. Non-profits that get public money (especially over a half bill a year) should be opening their books and practices as well.

Is this accurate that PP is not fiscally transparent? Any non-profit in New York in particular (only state that I am familiar with offhand) is required to have a full independent financial statement audit if their revenues from all sources exceed $250,000. I know there are federal requirements as well when an organization is big enough.

I am not sure about other states' rules and not sure how Planned Parenthood is legally organized/structured, but I would imagine their various organizations have to be subject to some pretty strict financial reporting, no? And also, all 990s (non-profit tax returns) are public record and can be retrieved with a FOIA request.

I'm not saying they aren't I'm saying they should be. I noticed in searching that in NYC the PP national entity has an Annual Report online, which is good. Mat posted their Code of Conduct, also great. But each clinic is its own nonprofit. How many PP clinics are there? You live in NY, I bet there is more corporate and nonprofit compliance there. In LA and NO, not so much. What about the PP clinic where the first video was filmed, are their tax returns, annual report and code of conduct online? They should be. I just don't think there's anything magic to the word "nonprofit."

Sorry, I think I misread your comment. I don't really know about the compliance required in other states. I agree that there does need to be a high level scrutiny for "non-profits"....I am not sure which organization the first PP was in particular, but I can say for certain that their tax return, at the very least, is available. It's federal law....tax returns of 501©(3) non-profits are public record.

Here is Foundation Center's 990 finder. I searched Planned Parenthood and found 663 990s on record.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

Well then treat them like tissue at a hospital. Do you think hospital admins get wined and dined and bargain with people who claim to be tissue or organ buyers? At least be professional and they should be open to transparency or regulation. I'm guessing any local hospital like Mt. Sinai or any public hospital especially would be open to the same criticism. Non-profits that get public money (especially over a half bill a year) should be opening their books and practices as well.

Is this accurate that PP is not fiscally transparent? Any non-profit in New York in particular (only state that I am familiar with offhand) is required to have a full independent financial statement audit if their revenues from all sources exceed $250,000. I know there are federal requirements as well when an organization is big enough.

I am not sure about other states' rules and not sure how Planned Parenthood is legally organized/structured, but I would imagine their various organizations have to be subject to some pretty strict financial reporting, no? And also, all 990s (non-profit tax returns) are public record and can be retrieved with a FOIA request.

I'm not saying they aren't I'm saying they should be. I noticed in searching that in NYC the PP national entity has an Annual Report online, which is good. Mat posted their Code of Conduct, also great. But each clinic is its own nonprofit. How many PP clinics are there? You live in NY, I bet there is more corporate and nonprofit compliance there. In LA and NO, not so much. What about the PP clinic where the first video was filmed, are their tax returns, annual report and code of conduct online? They should be. I just don't think there's anything magic to the word "nonprofit."

Sorry, I think I misread your comment. I don't really know about the compliance required in other states. I agree that there does need to be a high level scrutiny for "non-profits"....I am not sure which organization the first PP was in particular, but I can say for certain that their tax return, at the very least, is available. It's federal law....tax returns of 501©(3) non-profits are public record.

Here is Foundation Center's 990 finder. I searched Planned Parenthood and found 663 990s on record.

Thank you, sir, that is an awesome response and also a great site.

 

[tommyboy]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

yeah, you sound pretty inhuman.

 

[Hang 10]

I guess this is going to sound cold and inhuman to those who are anti-abortion, but-

The fetuses are dead. I really don't care what happens to them. If they can be used in the interests of scientific research, good. If PP can make a little extra money selling them for that purpose, good.

yeah, you sound pretty inhuman.

That and what he's suggesting is illegal.