Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Shocked I tell you. Shocked.
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Pope Francis 12.17.36 - 4.21.25 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sinn Fein
- Start date
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
You poor dear. Fainting couches are that way ------->
Do you need a fresh strand of pearls to clutch?
jhib
Footballguy
Not excusing anything here, but I think this might be reported wrong.** Unless I'm mistaken, he might have been arrested two years after the reduced sanctions, but it was because of new evidence of crimes from years before, not more recent ones.
That might not change anything about any cover up, but it seems to me to be an important distinction to make when judging the results of this Pope's actions compared to the last couple.
***eta: Not reported wrong by the AP, but by others like above misinterpreting the AP article.
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mquinnjr
Footballguy
jhib
Footballguy
If they mean this compared to turning them over to civil authorities, I agree with your reaction.
But I think (?) in this case they mean it compared to simply removing the priests from the Church, as was originally to be done to this guy before Pope Francis changed it to restricted ministry, prayer, and isolation. There's at least some logic to that.
From the AP article this one was taking from:
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mquinnjr
Footballguy
I get what you're saying, but we're talking felony sexual assault of children here. I'm not convinced that any handling decision here should be left to the Church. Sexual assaults aren't always isolated incidents, as is shown with this priest who was found to have committed a crime in 2012 by the Vatican investigation who then proceeded to commit the same crime 5 more times. They don't just stop liking adolescents because they're told "yeah, don't do that again and pray."
jhib
Footballguy
Yeah, like I said, we agree if we're talking about whether or not it should be left solely to the Church.
And you might have missed my comment a few posts ago, but I don't think he committed more crimes since 2012 (or if he did, we don't know about it and those weren't what he was arrested for in 2016).
HellToupee
Footballguy
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Kind of related and telling of the Pope's thought on Hell.
Recently a child said his dad was not a believer but was a good man. He asked the Pope if his dad, who had recently passed, was in Heaven. The Pope said something to the effect of "Do you think God would keep him far from him?" Those in attendance said "No" and the Pope basically left it at that. IMO, this was not a time to spare the feelings of someone. The Pope needs to be clear and concise here. It is the very core of Christian belief.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
shader
Footballguy
Man says “monkey it up” and half of the world loses their minds. Catholic Church systematically allowing pedophilia to continue and no one cares.
One #metoo comic tries to do a stand up routine. Thousands of pedophile priests still holding mass every week.
Eephus
Footballguy
Eephus
Footballguy
As a Catholic and a human being, I'm appalled by the abuse, coverup and continuing inability of the church authorities to effectively address the issue. The longer this scandal goes on, the more the evidence points to systemic corruption at every level. The complete loss of trust in the institution hasn't helped in my personal struggle with faith.
That said, I'm torn about what the appropriate role of the secular state in policing the church. The church has been given plenty of opportunities to clean up their own house and they've failed miserably. I understand civil authorities don't like the optics of arresting priests but somebody has to support the victims.
I don't think Francis' resignation would help matters. His successor is likely to be more insular and corrupt than he is. The system is rotten at all levels and very resistent to change.
That said, I'm torn about what the appropriate role of the secular state in policing the church. The church has been given plenty of opportunities to clean up their own house and they've failed miserably. I understand civil authorities don't like the optics of arresting priests but somebody has to support the victims.
I don't think Francis' resignation would help matters. His successor is likely to be more insular and corrupt than he is. The system is rotten at all levels and very resistent to change.
False equivalency doesn't mean what you think it means. If you want to say it's a false equivalency, if anything the Catholic problem is much larger and more sever in number and my argument follows that, not against it. These are both very similar (eerily so) and for some reason as a society we've become really outspoken about one and seem to ignore the other. And there is not whatabout, it's real.
If the Pope, along with McCarrick and the others, covered up these crimes they belong in jail. No one simply asked for Larry Nasser's resignation.
Eephus
Footballguy
So what do you propose?
You can arrest or excommunicate priests but the problem runs much deeper than that. The Catholic church is parochial to extreme and is built on centuries of clerical infallibility. I don't know how that can change without shattering the foundation of the church. And that assumes that the church as an institution wants that change. I doubt that it does. I'm sure many in the Vatican expect this to blow over and the church will endure much as it has.
The Pope is a head of state as well as a religious leader. Get real -- ain't nobody gonna throw him in jail.
You can arrest or excommunicate priests but the problem runs much deeper than that. The Catholic church is parochial to extreme and is built on centuries of clerical infallibility. I don't know how that can change without shattering the foundation of the church. And that assumes that the church as an institution wants that change. I doubt that it does. I'm sure many in the Vatican expect this to blow over and the church will endure much as it has.
The Pope is a head of state as well as a religious leader. Get real -- ain't nobody gonna throw him in jail.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
This could not have happened without lay people looking the other way over and over and over again.
We, the confirmed laity, are the body of Christ. We need to respect and honor our priests, and we need to love and support them in the most Christian way possible: in truth. Shame on those who failed to live up to that responsibility.
Having been involved in councils and committees as a lay person from the time I was a high school teen, I will say one thing: the habit of looking the other way, of not challenging the status quo, and of ignoring the voice of the Spirit, does not start with ignoring child sexual abuse. I guarantee that's a habit that starts small and grows with every decision to ignore the prompting of one's conscience. And there is plenty that the laity can do to champion change in the institutions of the Church, probably moreso in the US than in many other countries.
It is noteworthy that only two of the 300-plus priests identified by the grand jury in the PA report were involved in abuse in the last 10 years, and these had been reported by their dioceses. 2 is still too many, but it does show that the efforts of ordinary folks, "boots on the ground" priests and parishioners, has made some difference, maybe a significant difference. People ought to know that.
The actions of bishops, especially regarding other bishops, is another story.
We, the confirmed laity, are the body of Christ. We need to respect and honor our priests, and we need to love and support them in the most Christian way possible: in truth. Shame on those who failed to live up to that responsibility.
Having been involved in councils and committees as a lay person from the time I was a high school teen, I will say one thing: the habit of looking the other way, of not challenging the status quo, and of ignoring the voice of the Spirit, does not start with ignoring child sexual abuse. I guarantee that's a habit that starts small and grows with every decision to ignore the prompting of one's conscience. And there is plenty that the laity can do to champion change in the institutions of the Church, probably moreso in the US than in many other countries.
It is noteworthy that only two of the 300-plus priests identified by the grand jury in the PA report were involved in abuse in the last 10 years, and these had been reported by their dioceses. 2 is still too many, but it does show that the efforts of ordinary folks, "boots on the ground" priests and parishioners, has made some difference, maybe a significant difference. People ought to know that.
The actions of bishops, especially regarding other bishops, is another story.
Five other countries bound together in a #metoo movement against priests abusing women. In that case and the PA grand jury case both found that pregnancies were covered up with abortions. That’s Cain and Able ####. If we’re to believe your history god would be raining down Sodom and Gahmora fire and brimstone on the Vatican.
We should treat them just like every other secular sect that has done this. Treat them just like Wayco and the FLDS. Storm that ####### country take them out of power and return the children and women.
But getting real as you say. At least show as much outrage as we do with similar social issues. Where is the #metoo for the children? Where is the protesting of this cult? For Christ sake stop supporting and defending these idiots.
Parrothead
Footballguy
first move- remove all tax exempt status for every catholic church in America.. they will go broke eventually
Galileo
Footballguy
Feeling the way you describe here, do you support the church financially? Assuming you do, will you continue?
comfortably numb
Footballguy
In my opinion
If people wait for the Vatican to fix this issue they'll be waiting another 2000 years.
The solution starts with the Catholic parishioners.
They need to stop attending church and stop donations.
Once the Vatican realizes their churches and bank accounts are drying up, changes will begin to occur.
It saddens me that many Catholics will boycott the NFL for a player kneeling or an actor for being accused of sexual assault but will do nothing when their religious institution alllows and covers up sexual abuse against women and children.
HellToupee
Footballguy
I like to think/hope I’m supporting the good priests who do very good things in the Catholic church
It was the lead story on the NBC Nightly news when the PA grade jury report came out, the next day it was the third story and got another mention a couple days ago when the Pope refused to answer the arch bishop to the U.S.'s claim that Francis knew and covered up McCarrick's abuse. Not a mention on NBC tonight. CBS reported on it tonight for 20 seconds in the bottom half of the news. What the players are allowed or not allowed to wear at the U.S. Open is more important.
You're supporting the church. Do you want to make a list of all the good things while I project the numbers from PA to the rest of the world and come up with a estimate of the total number of children that have been raped?
shader
Footballguy
Wrong. The point tonydead was making is that no one cares.
There are people outraged today because they are desperate to find something in the opposition party to be outraged about. So when the media arm of their political party tells them to get outraged, they get outraged like the non-thinking puppets they are (true for both parties by the way)
Meanwhile an issue that is 100000000x more important gets glossed over. Heck the ridiculous monkey discussion is 6 pages last I looked and this pope discussion was 2 posts before mine.
Eephus
Footballguy
The line between politics and religion complicates this matter. The secular public feels more ownership of political issues and the lives of celebrities than they do about what happens in somebody elses' church. Religious figures, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, have largely been silent as well.
I'm outraged and sickened but I feel powerless. I don't think there's a solution to a global (or at least Western) problem in the American judicial system. Punishment is possible for some but meaningful reform is almost impossible to achieve. Catholic bureaucracy has been in place for millennia to maintain the status quo. The laity has very little power in this country and even less abroad, especially in the developing world. Even the power of American financial support is overrated. Rome has more diverse revenue streams than the Sunday check in the basket.
Francis always spoke of a short papacy so the infighting to replace him is already underway. I'm sure someone in the Vatican maintains a list of Cardinals who have been complicit in local scandals. It's probably different from the information in the public domain.
comfortably numb
Footballguy
You are powerless. A billion catholics are not.Eephus said:
If you are one of these folks who stop watching the NFL because of Kaepernick or don't watch House of Cards because of Kevin Spacey you have the same ability with the church. Stop attending and donating. You can have your faith to yourself and your household.
My entire family is catholic. I have a few of them who make it a point to say they are done with the NFL because of the anthem crap or they won't watch a Tom Cruise movie because of some dumb thing said. You know what i get 3 days later? An invitation to their kids baptism at Our lady of Fatima church.
If this was a few bad apples, an isolated incident or a rogue cardinal who covered up a scandal ok...but this is centuries of abuse.
No one cares.
I don't. We'll not enough to do anything about it. It's not because I'm a heartless monster but i am selfish and consumed with the things in my day to day life were many of these worldy incidents don't impact me. This is why i don't initiate or even partake much in conversations about these issues or politics. If i am not not going to make a decision to do something about it, im not going to vocalize any outrage.
But from the outside looking in...man.
So many people proclaim their outrage over the most benign things that pop up on a daily news cycle.
No one cares about these women and children being abused by a world institution that makes it a point to systematically cover up their abusers and silence/discredit the victims.
From the outside looking in....if I am gay the church and my family would say i need therapy and am a sinner. If i am thier priest and like to seduce an 8 year old boy to giving me a hand job I get moved to Rochester.
Ooof man
Every man has their cross to bear but the practicing catholics who support their institution and are vocal about many other agendas....that is one HEAVY cross you are carrying with you to lay at the feet of your lord and savior.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
There has always been corruption in the Church. 1/12th of the 12 apostles were corrupt and all of them were deeply flawed.
There have been significant steps taken in dioceses across America to improve the culture of opportunity. I understand that the seminaries have been dramatically reformed and what were once very unhealthy environments attracting unhealthy candidates are today healthy and thriving.
Things are being done. The latest report has generated voluminous and swift reaction from church leaders and the message continues to be sent that the number one thing the laity can do is say something if they see something.
There have been significant steps taken in dioceses across America to improve the culture of opportunity. I understand that the seminaries have been dramatically reformed and what were once very unhealthy environments attracting unhealthy candidates are today healthy and thriving.
Things are being done. The latest report has generated voluminous and swift reaction from church leaders and the message continues to be sent that the number one thing the laity can do is say something if they see something.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I am living in Pittsburgh and let me tell you there is PLENTY of outrage here. I went to catholic school and was an altar boy that served under one of the accused abusers and it makes me furious that I looked up to this man for so many years (fortunately for me he was into girls).
My wife and I raised our children as Catholics but once the kids graduated high school we stopped going to church. I had begun to question all religions for some time and am to the point now where I am agnostic. I neither believe nor disbelieve in God. The only thing I am pretty sure of is that all organized religions have it wrong.
That being said, in my opinion the Catholic church needs to do a major overhaul in order to begin to fix this. At a minimum:
1. get rid of any bishop, cardinal, etc. that did not immediately report any incident to the police or remove the accused priest from active ministry until cleared by the authorities
2. actively campaign state governments for repeal of the statute of limitations for child molestation
3. change policy that prohibits women and/or married men from the priesthood
I don't expect any of this to happen but it should.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
I'm down with 1 and 2. The PA grand jury had a few other recommendations that should also be seriously looked at.
"It's always been this way"
"We're working on it"
"Nothing to see here, move along"
Hint: You're part of the problem. You are complicit in this. Stop supporting and defending this pedophile ring!
Galileo
Footballguy
Why shouldn't all these f**ks be held accountable to the same laws as the rest of society?
shader
Footballguy
Someone mentioned earlier that the Catholic church is built on centuries of clerical infallibility. Is that true? I've always heard that the pope has the right to "change doctrine", but I don't claim to know much about the Catholic church.
In any event, if you're in a religion in which the top leaders have "infallibility" and the top leaders are also allowing kids to be abused and covering it up, it might be time to re-think things.
From a biblical standpoint, there was only one infallible individual and it wasn't Peter or any "pope".
In any event, if you're in a religion in which the top leaders have "infallibility" and the top leaders are also allowing kids to be abused and covering it up, it might be time to re-think things.
From a biblical standpoint, there was only one infallible individual and it wasn't Peter or any "pope".
Why not #3? Why do you discriminate against women? It's the church's serious, serious hang up with sex that is the root cause of this problem. If you don't fix the root cause it's going to continue to happen.
Using the PA grand jury report and extrapolating out the "over 1000 of identifiable victims" to the total number of parishes in PA and from PA's catholic population to total catholic population results in 500,000 raped children in the past 70 years. The report also stated that there are likely thousands more victims whose records were lost or who were too afraid to come forward. That puts the number of raped children in the past 70 years in the MILLIONS by the catholic church.
Let that sink in.
Let that sink in.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
It's not an opinion. You've defended the church in several posts today and yesterday. That's fact.
It's not an opinion. You must fix a root cause to eliminate a problem. The root cause of hundreds of thousands if not millions of women and children getting raped is certainly based on issues with sex. That's fact.
You and your church most certainly do discriminate against women. I'm sure you love your wife as long as she doesn't speak up in church and she doesn't suddenly decide to explore her sexuality.
mquinnjr
Footballguy
Isn't the Catholic Church's mission supposed to be to function as a religious organization?
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