Potential NFL competitive integrity issue brought to light in Rams @ Saints game (1 Viewer)

[RUSF18]

BTW here's the clip I referenced in the post, of the only other as obvious non-call I can remember seeing in any sport.

https://youtu.be/R7pN56VZOfM

 

[rzrback77]

Ok I edited it, I agree.

I was about to post the same, albeit with this think (basically the same).

No. 13 Patrick Turner is the Down Judge, No. 60 Gary Cavaletto is the Side Judge. I agree with this shot we can see that Cavaletto is waving off Payton who is rushing in to the edge of the coaching/players box. Turner can be seen also gesturing Payton back. Turner did reach for the flag, he went in to consult Cavaletto and basically Turner tells Cavaletto it's "bang bang". Which is bs, and Cavaletto also saw the play. As I understand it they both have ability to call PI there (eta: under the rules though the Side Judge specifically technically has the responsibility to "Makes sure widest receiver on nearest side is able to run his route without defensive interference"). I think the Down Judge has responsibility up to 7 yards to watch for illegal contact but he is not limited to those 7 yards. I don't know what the hand signal that Cavaletto did there with the crossed arms,  but he did essentially seal the deal. - eta - However, note Turner says "bang bang" after Cavaletto does the hand signal and says something to Turner. 

What gets me is that there was not just 1 blown call, but actually 2 blown calls here; and not only that there were 2 different refs who blew off two different calls. They saw the fouls, they just weren't calling them and they didn't call them.

I'm not on the 'fixed' track, at least not if that means gambling. That's not me. If I ever do get conspiracy minded about the NFL I'm more inclined to believe that the refs try to keep games entertaining, and I mean that even for the most meaningless games in the dregs of the regular season. I don't think of that as being 'fixed' but I do think it happens. But I don't see where that would come into play here.

And a long time ago I read this book by former ref Norm Schachter, and I'd recommend it to anyone. And what I recall is that he did acknowledge, IIRC, that yes some refs could be fans of certain teams, and while games would never be 'fixed' it did occur that some refs were indeed partial on occasion. But I also do not buy that here.

However I am at a loss for what Turner and then Cavaletto - two different refs both seeing the ball from two different places - were thinking.

Thanks for showing this view. I have not commented here (and have not read the entire thread) but I am looking beyond the blatantly missed call and wanted to point out what I see as more of the root of the problem. Someone said earlier that the officials are missing more calls because of the "safety net" provided by the replay. Something I have noticed a lot of, particularly on sideline calls like this one, is that the nearer official seems to always hesitate to make a call seemingly depending on corroboration before he makes the call. I can see here that it might possibly be a little more difficult to judge when the hit occurred by the person almost directly behind the play, but the official farther back down the field should have clearly seen the hit ahead of when the ball got there. This view appears to show him reaching for the flag, but also looking to the other closer official and being influenced by his emphatic incomplete signal.

It seems that the conferences should follow the calls made by independent acts of the officials and not a collaboration in real time before making a decision. Has this been going on and I just missed it?

My opinion here is that this one is gone and Saints fans (me included) just have to move on, no matter how difficult. But, hopefully this missed call can lead to progress before next season in the way that calls are made.

 

[Hov34]

When did the Saints become a hated team? I must have missed that memo... or... maybe, just maybe, you have a persecution complex.

The OP was originally a response to Hov34 in this thread (see top post). Rest assured that Hov34 has no love for the Saints.

Whoa, I have nothing against the Saints.  Just so you know I grew up in Louisiana (my mom is from there) Moved there when I was 7,  but was already brainwashed by my dad (from Minnesota) to be a Vikings fan.  Actually rooted for the Saints growing up (when they sucked).  Then came 2009 season.  I am not a fan of Sean Payton.  And as long as he is affiliated with the Saints, they can eat a bag of #####.  Love Drew Brees, and hope when he's done Teddy gets a chance and does well.  Just as long as Sean Payton isn't there. 

Feel bad for the players and the fans of today's Saints - they didn't deserve that, and I hope this brings about change on the penalty challenging thing.  Oh how I wish we had that option in 2010.

By the way, you never answered the question from the post in the original thread.  Were you complaining about "competitive integrity issue with non-calls" in 2010?

 

[cobalt_27]

I’ve lurked, somewhat amused, over the past few days, and I have to say this is one of the nuttiest threads I’ve ever seen in FBG, which is saying a lot.  Sadly, a few of the, otherwise, more level-headed posters have lost their minds.  As one who rooted for Brees (and by extension the Saints), I was pretty ticked off, too.  But, this thread has reached comical levels of delusion.

No the refs didn’t intentionally screw up the call.  No, the game won’t be restarted.  Yes, instant replay needs to include penalties like PI.

Can Saints fans move on, please?  This discussion is pretty diminishing.  

 

[Doug B]

By the way, you never answered the question from the post in the original thread.  Were you complaining about "competitive integrity issue with non-calls" in 2010?

No. Never conceived of the 2009 NFC title game in those terms. Don't care to go down the rabbit hole in this thread ... I think it's safe to say we're pretty dug in, and we're not going to show each other anything new to change minds.

Short answer is "no".

 

[Joe Bryant]

The non-call was egregious.

But I think that nothing being done about the fans blowing ref whistles all game was a huge competitive integrity issue as well.

I was shocked by that. I thought a whistle in the stands was a big deal.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don’t think it was a mistake. I think the official saw the play, recognized the play immediately as a penalty, then chose not to throw the flag.

If others disagree about that, there’s nothing to talk about. But if you agree that’s likely what happened, you have to ask “Why did he not make the call?” Probably just something as prosaic as a let-‘em-play ethic gone awry. But even THAT is a problem for the league ... can’t have officials just going off on their own like that. 




 

That's a huge accusation. 

I'm sorry to be just now reading this and apologies if you've already explained more, but I'd ask why you think he chose to intentionally not throw the flag. 

That would be a giant story. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

If you go back and read the MMQB's 2013 series on a week in the life of an officiating crew, you'll see that the biggest fear these guys have is blowing a call. It can literally ruin your career (I would bet the official from today's game doesn't get a playoff assignment next year, which is what they all work for.)




 

I'd be shocked if the official ever works another NFL game. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

What's odd is how this happens 5 times a week for years and now people want to make a big deal out of it.

That's a fair point. 

The difference in this one was the timing.

If the ref makes the obvious call, the Saints run the clock to a few seconds and all it takes is making the chip shot field goal and go to the Super Bowl. 

This happens in the 2nd quarter and there are tons more things that must happen for the Saints to win. 

That's the difference I believe. 

 

[renesauz]

Not sure if it was mentioned already, but it was also strange when Josh Hill was blown up with a hit to the helmet and there was no flag but the ref made him leave the game because the helmet to helmet hit concussed him? If there was no flag on the hit why make the guy leave the game? Or if you make him leave the game, retroactively throw a flag. Just another dumb thing I hadn't seen before. 

THAT one was a good no call. HIll was a runner at that point and the defender wasn't "targeting" or intentionally leading with his helmet...Hill was actually.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I thought this thread might be discussing how the NFL can allow any home team to have such an enormous home field advantage as the Saints had yesterday.  How is it competitive integrity when the visiting team can't even hear themselves in the huddle, or hear the snap count, let alone have any possibility of calling an audible at the line?  I know, the Saints "earned" the home field advantage, but does it not tilt the competitive integrity balance a bit too far? 

I'm good with this. It makes the regular season games more relevant as teams fight for home field. New England clearly has a home field advantage. As do loud stadiums like Arrowhead. I think it's just right the way it is and rewards the teams with great fans. I thought about this a good bit if the Chargers would have worked their way into a home field playoff game and I'm ok with them not having an advantage there. Fans matter. 

 

[Doug B]

That's a huge accusation. 

I'm sorry to be just now reading this and apologies if you've already explained more, but I'd ask why you think he chose to intentionally not throw the flag. 

That would be a giant story. 

A more considered, revised response from me is upthread on this page.

Succinctly: I think the official(s) semi-chose not to throw a flag before the snap to avoid deciding the game with a penalty. I call it a "let 'em play" ethic. IMHO, that caused a freeze-up on the part of the two near officials. I don't believe that they didn't see the foul, or that they somehow missed an important part that would have made the call more obvious to them. I also believe that helmet-to-helmet was as much of a call to be made as PI -- if someone argues their way out of the easy PI call, the helmet-to-helmet is still left to be accounted for.

 

[Doug B]

That's a fair point. 

The difference in this one was the timing.

If the ref makes the obvious call, the Saints run the clock to a few seconds and all it takes is making the chip shot field goal and go to the Super Bowl. 

This happens in the 2nd quarter and there are tons more things that must happen for the Saints to win. 

That's the difference I believe. 

This is lost on A LOT of observers. Timing and game context makes this a unique event in the league's history.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I feel bad seeing a team and their fans get this upset about an obvious missed call but it didn't decide the game.  It could have, and should have, given them a great chance to win.




1

Do you disagree if the right PI call is made, the Saints would have run the clock down and then kicked the chip shot FG?

 

[Gally]

I was shocked by that. I thought a whistle in the stands was a big deal.

Do we know if it was as clear on the field as it was on TV?  Could the whistle guy just been really close to a microphone so the TV audience was treated with the whistle blow while the on field participants really didn't know it was happening? 

 

[Doug B]

Do we know if it was as clear on the field as it was on TV?  Could the whistle guy just been really close to a microphone so the TV audience was treated with the whistle blow while the on field participants really didn't know it was happening? 

I wonder, as well. I had the sound just loud enough to hear the commentators clearly from about 8 feet away (TV is kinda small by today's standards, a 32-inch, no sound upgrades). I never heard the whistles at any point. I watched it streaming ... maybe the streaming signal "chopped off" the higher frequencies and made the whistles blend into the overall noise?

As far as on the field ... the building was LOUD. I could see the whistles in the stands just coming through to the players as an indistinct part of a wall of noise. Not every single time, but the times when the crowd was going for aural drown-out.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What can we do as fans though?  Accept that calls are missed (sometimes egregiously) or stop watching the NFL   

I don't think that's the answer though. We have instant replay because fans demanded a better product and wanted more calls to be correct. We got that. I see this discussion as a refinement of the replay process.

Again, I was mostly neutral on the game but I'm a little surprised to see as much  from fans of the game. I know the Saints have lots of folks that don't like them and it's not hard to see why. If the Patriots were jobbed on the same call, you'd see even more people not caring. But this is business, not personal. I hate it for the quality of the league. 

 

[Doug B]

Again, I was mostly neutral on the game but I'm a little surprised to see as much  from fans of the game. I know the Saints have lots of folks that don't like them and it's not hard to see why. If the Patriots were jobbed on the same call, you'd see even more people not caring. But this is business, not personal. I hate it for the quality of the league. 

QFT

 

[Joe Bryant]

When did the Saints become a hated team? I must have missed that memo... or... maybe, just maybe, you have a persecution complex.

I don't know they're "hated" but I know lots of people that have the Saints near the top of teams they love the cheer against. Payton smarminess, Gregg Williams bountygate, the Michael Thomas flex after every catch etc. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

A more considered, revised response from me is upthread on this page.

Succinctly: I think the official(s) semi-chose not to throw a flag before the snap to avoid deciding the game with a penalty. I call it a "let 'em play" ethic. IMHO, that caused a freeze-up on the part of the two near officials. I don't believe that they didn't see the foul, or that they somehow missed an important part that would have made the call more obvious to them. I also believe that helmet-to-helmet was as much of a call to be made as PI -- if someone argues their way out of the easy PI call, the helmet-to-helmet is still left to be accounted for.

I'm sorry but you're just looking for moustache twirling nefariousness here.

It's still Occam's Razor simple - the guy had a split second to make a call on PI. In that instance and situation, that call came first. In making that decision, there was no room for a decision on helmet to helmet.

You came out on the wrong end. It happens. It's not a conspiracy. It's a game.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I’ve lurked, somewhat amused, over the past few days, and I have to say this is one of the nuttiest threads I’ve ever seen in FBG, which is saying a lot.  Sadly, a few of the, otherwise, more level-headed posters have lost their minds.  As one who rooted for Brees (and by extension the Saints), I was pretty ticked off, too.  But, this thread has reached comical levels of delusion.

No the refs didn’t intentionally screw up the call.  No, the game won’t be restarted.  Yes, instant replay needs to include penalties like PI.

Can Saints fans move on, please?  This discussion is pretty diminishing.  

What specifically are you saying is over the line?

Do you agree the call was missed?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Do we know if it was as clear on the field as it was on TV?  Could the whistle guy just been really close to a microphone so the TV audience was treated with the whistle blow while the on field participants really didn't know it was happening? 

Fair point. I'm assuming it wasn't an issue on the field or they would have penalized the Saints. I was shocked the Network people couldn't stop it. 

 

[Doug B]

I'm sorry but your just looking for moustache twirling nefariousness here.

It's still Occam's Razor simple - the guy had a split second to make a call on PI. In that instance and situation, that call came first. In making that decision, there was no room for a decision on helmet to helmet.

You came out on the wrong end. It happens. It's not a conspiracy. It's a game.

You read what I wrote as aimed at nefariousness and conspiracy? I meant exactly the opposite.

When I wrote "a let 'em play" ethic, you know what I'm getting at, right? OK then ... without that idea being in the back of an official's mind ... the flag comes out reflexively. That egregious a foul is rarely, if ever, missed during the regular season or when stakes are otherwise lower.

Consider also that (at minimum) two officials missed the call, and that the officials had an opportunity to confer with one another in an attempt to get the call correct and throw a late flag. Not saying conspiracy -- just disappointed in what must have been a reluctance to go back on a first-impression call.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

What specifically are you saying is over the line?

Do you agree the call was missed?

It's pretty clear, Joe. @Doug B is an upper tier FBG, and I mean that. But when he writes the following he's clearly lost objectivity :

"I don’t think it was a mistake. I think the official saw the play, recognized the play immediately as a penalty, then chose not to throw the flag."

 

[Joe Bryant]

You came out on the wrong end. It happens. It's not a conspiracy. It's a game.




 

That's the thing.

Do you remember it happening in a game this big where literally history and legacies are changed because of one blown call?

I don't think that happens very often.

In fact, I can't remember when a single obviously non call changed the result of the Championship game. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

You read what I wrote as aimed at nefariousness and conspiracy? I meant exactly the opposite.

When I wrote "a let 'em play" ethic, you know what I'm getting at, right? OK then ... without that idea being in the back of an official's mind ... the flag comes out reflexively. That egregious a foul is rarely, if ever, missed during the regular season or when stakes are otherwise lower.

Consider also that (at minimum) two officials missed the call, and that the officials had an opportunity to confer with one another in an attempt to get the call correct and throw a late flag. Not saying conspiracy -- just disappointed in what must have been a reluctance to go back on a first-impression call.

But you also said that a ref consciously chose not to throw a flag when he should have. I don't know how that's ambiguous.

 

[Joe Bryant]

It's pretty clear, Joe. @Doug B is an upper tier FBG, and I mean that. But when he writes the following he's clearly lost objectivity :

"I don’t think it was a mistake. I think the official saw the play, recognized the play immediately as a penalty, then chose not to throw the flag."

That caught my eye too and it's why I asked him. He changed his opinion.

 

[Steeler]

Again, I was mostly neutral on the game but I'm a little surprised to see as much  from fans of the game.

Every team gets jobbed by the officials and I think it is the responsibility of each team to overcome bad calls.  Unfortunately for the Saints they couldn't do it on Sunday.  I loath blaming officials for losses and this seems like an hyper version of that - "competitive integrity issue brought to light" -  

 

[Joe Bryant]

Every team gets jobbed by the officials and I think it is the responsibility of each team to overcome bad calls.  Unfortunately for the Saints they couldn't do it on Sunday.  I loath blaming officials for losses and this seems like an hyper version of that - "competitive integrity issue brought to light" -  




2

If the Jesse James no-catch had been as clearly wrong as this call, you'd be  ?  I was super bummed after that play and that play was close. The blown call from New Orleans was 100x more clear. 

 

[Steeler]

If the Jesse James no-catch had been as clearly wrong as this call, you'd be  ?

I NEVER blamed the officials for that lose.  Ben threw a horrible pick after the call was overturned - THAT is why the Steelers lost that game last year.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

That's the thing.

Do you remember it happening in a game this big where literally history and legacies are changed because of one blown call?

I don't think that happens very often.

In fact, I can't remember when a single obviously non call changed the result of the Championship game. 

Not the timing of it, no. But that doesn't really mean much in a discussion of #### happening. Sometimes it happens at #### times. It's just the way of things.

 

[Doug B]

But you also said that a ref consciously chose not to throw a flag when he should have. I don't know how that's ambiguous.

Can’t go in it at length now, but read my revisions from earlier today. Freeze-ups, not malice, spurred by a pre-snap interest in preventing a flag from deciding the game.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Not the timing of it, no. But that doesn't really mean much in a discussion of #### happening. Sometimes it happens at #### times. It's just the way of things.

Thanks. We'll just have to disagree there.

The timing of it, in this case, means everything.

If they get that call right, the Saints have the same chance of going to the Super Bowl as they have of the kicker making the chip shot. I don't think that's debatable. 

That's why it's different and not a "stuff happens"   in my opinion.

 

[Doug B]

“competitive integrity issue brought to light" -  

You left out the most important word in he title ... “potential”.

That means not now, but potentially down the road. In an environment where a fixed game and a bad-call game are indistinguishable.

No, not saying Sunday was a fix.

 

[Joe Bryant]

You left out the most important word in he title ... “potential”.

That means not now, but potentially down the road. In an environment where a fixed game and a bad-call game are indistinguishable.

No, not saying Sunday was a fix.

You probably should go back and edit your original post with an added note to how you feel now. 

Accusing a ref of throwing a game is a giant accusation.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Thanks. We'll just have to disagree there.

The timing of it, in this case, means everything.

If they get that call right, the Saints have the same chance of going to the Super Bowl as they have of the kicker making the chip shot. I don't think that's debatable. 

That's why it's different and not a "stuff happens"   in my opinion.

But there's a million-ish "ifs" and "buts" in a game. This one thing alone didn't defeat the Saints and is being used as such to scapegoat some of the others that did as well.

The Saints had the ball first in overtime. They turned the ball over. The Patriots took the ball in overtime and scored.

The Saints forced a red zone turnover and scored three points.

Instead of running the ball they chose to pass. And left time on the clock.

And maybe I'm not being clear enough but all I'm saying is that randomness doesn't choose its occasion. Of course this was a bigger occasion than most, but there's little that can be done about it. There was plenty the Saints could have done to minimize and even eliminate the occasion.

 

[cobalt_27]

What specifically are you saying is over the line?

Do you agree the call was missed?

Oh it was horrendous.  But, there has been some commentary here accusing deliberate malfeasance (willfull predetermination or worse) on the part of the ref(s) involved.  That’s really unfortunate.  I’m ok holding a ref accountable for a mistake, but to malign him as part of a larger conspiracy is really lame.  

 

[TwinTurbo]

Bad calls happen in every sport in every league around the world, even with instant replay. The NFL doesn't have a monopoly on horrible officiating. But that said, some of these NFL guys just can't operate at the speed of today's game. According to Google, the average age is 51 years old. Youth is the ransom paid for experience, but the decades of experience clearly isn't helping some of them either. You basically have a collection of 50 to 60+ year old guys "hustling" to get in position to officiate a game played by elite athletes that are half their age. God bless them for doing it into their sixties, but let's also be willing to have an honest discussion about it. 

I also really wanted to see Brees make it to another Superbowl which was likely his last chance. I think it will be Brady's last as well. So the fans got robbed of an epic matchup between two HOF QBs because of a missed call. 

 

[gcm]

also, both teams must have the ball in OT at least once

Nope.

 

[gcm]

Yes, instant replay needs to include penalties like PI.

The CFL does it already.

 

[zftcg]

That caught my eye too and it's why I asked him. He changed his opinion.

Yeah, I was critical of @Doug B's original post and I agree that his more nuanced take is far less objectionable. IMO his mistake was immediately jumping to conclusions about why the official did it and what that might mean rather than trying to figure out the more fascinating question of how it happened in the first place. I think his theory is plausible but I have no idea if it's true. Worse, unless the official decides to come out and talk about it (which he may if he gets fired) we may never know.

 

[modogg]

So it has been some time since this non call. I know the emotions are high right after the game, but do people still feel the same way? I mean I would say 80% of NFL games have blown calls, some have multiple. The longer Payton and some drag this out, the worse they look. I have seen mentioned a few times now, that the Saints were home in OT with an MVP candidate at QB and they got the ball first. they should look into that more than a missed call.

Not trying to kick anyone when down, but to be honest blown calls happen a lot. just wondering if fans here feel the same way, or if the passing of a few days has people looking more objectively at it.

 

[zftcg]

I'd be shocked if the official ever works another NFL game. 

No idea how discipline works. I can't remember if they addressed it in that MMQB series. IIRC, at one point the ref finds out that because of a missed call (nothing near as blatant as Sunday's) he wouldn't be able to call the postseason. I know they did fire the guy mid-season this year, but I have to assume that was for a pattern of mistakes. If you're otherwise solid and screw up a call, can you get fired? Maybe in this case because it was so high profile? Also do they hold the individual official responsible or the whole crew?

Different sport, but I remember when that umpire cost the Tigers a perfect game a few years ago, the consensus was that he was a good ump who just blew it. No idea  if he was punished by the league. 

 

[AAABatteries]

So it has been some time since this non call. I know the emotions are high right after the game, but do people still feel the same way? I mean I would say 80% of NFL games have blown calls, some have multiple. The longer Payton and some drag this out, the worse they look. I have seen mentioned a few times now, that the Saints were home in OT with an MVP candidate at QB and they got the ball first. they should look into that more than a missed call.

Not trying to kick anyone when down, but to be honest blown calls happen a lot. just wondering if fans here feel the same way, or if the passing of a few days has people looking more objectively at it.

I think the thing Saints fans are struggling with is:  1. It was just so blatantly egregious - much more so than most missed calls.  and 2. It literally cost them a chance to win the Super Bowl.  I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty inconsolable myself if it were my team. 

Where I differed with Doug (before he changed his wording) is I just think the guy screwed up - whatchagonnado? 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

But there's a million-ish "ifs" and "buts" in a game. This one thing alone didn't defeat the Saints and is being used as such to scapegoat some of the others that did as well.

The Saints had the ball first in overtime. They turned the ball over. The Patriots took the ball in overtime and scored.

The Saints forced a red zone turnover and scored three points.

Instead of running the ball they chose to pass. And left time on the clock.

And maybe I'm not being clear enough but all I'm saying is that randomness doesn't choose its occasion. Of course this was a bigger occasion than most, but there's little that can be done about it. There was plenty the Saints could have done to minimize and even eliminate the occasion.

I've made this argument probably 2 dozen times in the last 48 hours, including in my diatribe in the NFC champ thread this morning. 

I know I won't change your mind, or anyone else who's arguing the same points you are (and there are lots).  Yes, there were many plays in the game where better decisions/plays could have been made by players and coaches. That's the normal ebb and flow of a game. Saints did what they had to do to not only stay in it despite those miscues, but to have a chance to ice it with little or no time remaining. I didn't like the screen pass on the final drive either, but if it wasn't thrown low it wouldn't matter (I know, that's the risk of throwing it in the first place). Drew makes that throw 999 times out of 1,000. They took a risk and it didn't pay off, but even still, we're talking the difference of 20-30 seconds maybe. 

NONE of that negates the fact that the no-call essentially either took an easy TD off the board, or at the very worst, first and goal with less than 2 minutes to play. So YES, the timing ABSOLUTELY matters. Timing is the whole reason for having booth reviews in the final 2 minutes of halves.  

 

[Hov34]

By the way, you never answered the question from the post in the original thread.  Were you complaining about "competitive integrity issue with non-calls" in 2010?

No. Never conceived of the 2009 NFC title game in those terms. Don't care to go down the rabbit hole in this thread ... I think it's safe to say we're pretty dug in, and we're not going to show each other anything new to change minds.

Short answer is "no".

Then why should anyone here take you rantings seriously?  Serious question.

 

[Joe Bryant]

But there's a million-ish "ifs" and "buts" in a game. This one thing alone didn't defeat the Saints and is being used as such to scapegoat some of the others that did as well.




1

Yes, but not like this one.

Do you agree if the refs get this one thing right, the Saints take 3 kneel downs and kick a chip shot to go to the Super Bowl?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Oh it was horrendous.  But, there has been some commentary here accusing deliberate malfeasance (willfull predetermination or worse) on the part of the ref(s) involved.  That’s really unfortunate.  I’m ok holding a ref accountable for a mistake, but to malign him as part of a larger conspiracy is really lame.  





2

There was one person @Doug B saying that and he's changed his opinion. I called him on it too.

 

[Doug B]

Then why should anyone here take you rantings seriously?  Serious question.

People may decide for themselves to take the arguments seriously on their own merits, or not. The issues exist independent of my opinion of the 2009 NFC title game. My personal credibility is not important.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I've made this argument probably 2 dozen times in the last 48 hours, including in my diatribe in the NFC champ thread this morning. 

I know I won't change your mind, or anyone else who's arguing the same points you are (and there are lots).  Yes, there were many plays in the game where better decisions/plays could have been made by players and coaches. That's the normal ebb and flow of a game. Saints did what they had to do to not only stay in it despite those miscues, but to have a chance to ice it with little or no time remaining. I didn't like the screen pass on the final drive either, but if it wasn't thrown low it wouldn't matter (I know, that's the risk of throwing it in the first place). Drew makes that throw 999 times out of 1,000. They took a risk and it didn't pay off, but even still, we're talking the difference of 20-30 seconds maybe. 

NONE of that negates the fact that the no-call essentially either took an easy TD off the board, or at the very worst, first and goal with less than 2 minutes to play. So YES, the timing ABSOLUTELY matters. Timing is the whole reason for having booth reviews in the final 2 minutes of halves.  




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This.