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Presidents and Deportation - Can We Talk? (1 Viewer)

Ramblin Wreck said:
2. They already break laws because they don't pay taxes. I'm all for giving them easier paths to citizenship but don't really support them being here illegally and not paying taxes. 
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Isn't that on the employer to withhold taxs from their check. If they are being payed under the table that's on the employer to.

 
Zow said:
No. A person cannot go to prison for a misdemeanor. 
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Among misdemeanors, Class A or Level One crimes are the most serious, incurring fines and jail time of up to one year in most states. Mid-level misdemeanors are often classified as Class B or Level Two. They may result in fines and jail time of up to a year in most states. A Class C misdemeanor is the lowest level of criminal offense. It is punishable by a fine only. The maximum penalty for a Class C misdemeanor is $500.


 
GrandpaRox said:
 



Among misdemeanors, Class A or Level One crimes are the most serious, incurring fines and jail time of up to one year in most states. Mid-level misdemeanors are often classified as Class B or Level Two. They may result in fines and jail time of up to a year in most states. A Class C misdemeanor is the lowest level of criminal offense. It is punishable by a fine only. The maximum penalty for a Class C misdemeanor is $500.
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Jail isn't prison. Your post specified "prison."  Only a person convicted of a felony can go to prison.

Additionally, I don't know which jurisdiction you copied that from, but classifications of misdemeanors and their potential sentencing ranges vary by state. While a misdemeanor can never merit more than one year in jail, some jurisdictions cap jail time at 6 months (to limit a defendant's right to a jury trial) and some may jail time possible for even the lowest level misdemeanor. For example, in my jurisdiction a class 3 misdemeanor (the lowest level or "petty" misdemeanor) is still punishable by up to thirty days in jail. Hence, in my jurisdiction a person can do thirty days by merely tapping somebody on the shoulder who didn't want to be tapped on the shoulder.

See why creating federal legislation to determine deportation can get difficult? Simply saying "any crime" or any crime where jail is possible is far too overreaching/harsh. In contrast, a felony conviction may not get "rid" of the undocumented immigrants our federal government would want to get rid of (i.e. a habitual drunk driver, a domestic batterer, a thief, etc). 

Hence why this #### gets completed and there are 120+ page charts for lawyers and judges to use to determine whether a person should be deported. 

 
Zow said:
Seriously? You realize it's a crime in many jurisdictions to get in an argument with your wife, jaywalk, have too much crap in your yard, drive too high above the speed limit, watch a pirated CD, etc? You really think somebody should be deported for engaging in one of those behaviors?
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Yes, I'm sure he thinks that we should deport people for jaywalking.

I am pro-immigration and basically in favor of open borders.  You are doing the cause a huge disservice by being deliberately stupid about the reasonable opinions of folks on the other side.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Yes, I'm sure he thinks that we should deport people for jaywalking.

I am pro-immigration and basically in favor of open borders.  You are doing the cause a huge disservice by being deliberately stupid about the reasonable opinions of folks on the other side.
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He said any crime. My point is that many don't understand what that actually means. 

I agree that's probably not what he intends to say. But it's exactly what he said by saying "any crime". Hence why law and government can be ####### complicated and people need to realize how challenging and difficult the issue of deportation can be. 

 
Zow said:
Jail isn't prison. Your post specified "prison."  Only a person convicted of a felony can go to prison.

Additionally, I don't know which jurisdiction you copied that from, but classifications of misdemeanors and their potential sentencing ranges vary by state. While a misdemeanor can never merit more than one year in jail, some jurisdictions cap jail time at 6 months (to limit a defendant's right to a jury trial) and some may jail time possible for even the lowest level misdemeanor. For example, in my jurisdiction a class 3 misdemeanor (the lowest level or "petty" misdemeanor) is still punishable by up to thirty days in jail. Hence, in my jurisdiction a person can do thirty days by merely tapping somebody on the shoulder who didn't want to be tapped on the shoulder.

See why creating federal legislation to determine deportation can get difficult? Simply saying "any crime" or any crime where jail is possible is far too overreaching/harsh. In contrast, a felony conviction may not get "rid" of the undocumented immigrants our federal government would want to get rid of (i.e. a habitual drunk driver, a domestic batterer, a thief, etc). 

Hence why this #### gets completed and there are 120+ page charts for lawyers and judges to use to determine whether a person should be deported. 
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I have never been to either, but to clear it up I mean jail not just prison. If you could serve jail time you need to go. 

Your intransigence is tipping my scales back to anyone. That would seem to make it easier for you.

 
Why ask this now?  We JUST had an election to settle this issue. Were gonna be deporting a lot of people. 

 
timschochet said:
1. No path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. They broke the law, they can never become citizens, with one exception- if they serve in the military for 4 years or in combat, those guys can become citizens. The rest have to pay a fine and then they can stay here legally but not as full citizens; it would be the equivalent of a lifelong green card. Their kids can be citizens. 

2. Widen immigration laws, we can take in tons more than we're taking now. Personally I'd make it wide open as it was before 1925. 

3. We don't need to spend tons of money on border security. 

4. All convicted violent felons without documents should be deported after serving prison time. 

The main thing is we need to stop scapegoating illegal immigrants. They are at best a net gain to our society, and at worst a minor problem. They are not the source of our major problems in this society. 
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This is a strange post, because you're usually even more pro-illegal immigration than I am.  I disagree strongly with #1.  If somebody comes here illegally but lives their life peacefully otherwise, I'm completely okay with figuring out a way to let them stay.  I definitely don't see why we should be breaking up families.

 
We should start threads asking what people feel about the louisiana purchase, the intercontinental railroad, and wether or not we should enter world war 2

 
Riversco said:
Why ask this now?  We JUST had an election to settle this issue. Were gonna be deporting a lot of people. 
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Presidential elections do not settle any one particular issue. That's especially true in this particular case, in which the majority of illegal immigrants live in cities and states which did NOT support Donald Trump.

 
timschochet said:
Presidential elections do not settle any one particular issue. That's especially true in this particular case, in which the majority of illegal immigrants live in cities and states which did NOT support Donald Trump.
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If there was ONE issue electing trump settled, immigration is it. 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
This is a strange post, because you're usually even more pro-illegal immigration than I am.  I disagree strongly with #1.  If somebody comes here illegally but lives their life peacefully otherwise, I'm completely okay with figuring out a way to let them stay.  I definitely don't see why we should be breaking up families.
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Then you misunderstood my first point. I absolutely want them to stay here for the rest of their lives, and to receive most of the rights as citizens, But they can never be full citizens; they should never have the right to vote.

 
Zow said:
He said any crime. My point is that many don't understand what that actually means. 

I agree that's probably not what he intends to say. But it's exactly what he said by saying "any crime". Hence why law and government can be ####### complicated and people need to realize how challenging and difficult the issue of deportation can be. 
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You know damn well what he means.  

We get it -- you have a law degree and passed the bar exam.  Congratulations.  Quit making life miserable for everybody else trying to have an ordinary conversation.

 
timschochet said:
Then you misunderstood my first point. I absolutely want them to stay here for the rest of their lives, and to receive most of the rights as citizens, But they can never be full citizens; they should never have the right to vote.
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Why?  Why not give them the ability to naturalize after the passage of time and demonstration of "good behavior?"

Edit: I agree with you that this is a policy choice, and not a question of inherent rights.  I just don't see a serious downside to awarding citizenship to people who come here and make a better life for themselves.

 
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I dont think people have come to grips with what happened last week. Trump destroyed his opponent. For him to back down from his CORE pledge wont happen. Ever. 

 
Riversco said:
Trump has a MANDATE to deport millions. MANDATE. 
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If he tries it in San Francisco or Los Angeles or San Diego, there is going to be mass riots. He can deport behind the scenes the way Obama did. But if he starts trying to round people up, we're not going to allow it. The local authorities and the police will NOT cooperate, and will defy federal authorities at every turn.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Why?  Why not give them the ability to naturalize after the passage of time and demonstration of "good behavior?"
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Because we are a nation of laws. I want them to stay, and I want their children to become citizens, but they shouldn't have the right to vote. It's unfair to those who came here the right way.

 
timschochet said:
Suppose we convict a rapist or murderer. Don't you think it's a little bit irresponsible to simply deport them and let them wander free in some other country? I don't see how we can do that.
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I take it you are a fervent believer in rehabilitation in the American prison system. If not, your post makes no sense

 
timschochet said:
Because we are a nation of laws. I want them to stay, and I want their children to become citizens, but they shouldn't have the right to vote. It's unfair to those who came here the right way.
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I don't have the same fetish about voting rights that many people do.  But if a person comes to the US, lives peacefully, supports themselves, etc., why not give them the right to vote in the country that you're going to let them live the rest of their lives in?  I'd far rather have this person voting than an ex-convict.  

 
 If some illegal murdered my child, I'd want them to face punishment in this country; not send them back to some other country where who knows what will happen.  

 
mr roboto said:
I don't know. Could they be jailed back home?
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Why shoud they be jailed in another country where they did not commit the crime for which they are being deported? 

What would be the incentive of their native country to agree to that?

Do you believe Mexico will pay for the wall?

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I don't have the same fetish about voting rights that many people do.  But if a person comes to the US, lives peacefully, supports themselves, etc., why not give them the right to vote in the country that you're going to let them live the rest of their lives in?  I'd far rather have this person voting than an ex-convict.  
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TBH it's a minor issue for me. The important thing is to let them stay.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
You know damn well what he means.  

We get it -- you have a law degree and passed the bar exam.  Congratulations.  Quit making life miserable for everybody else trying to have an ordinary conversation.
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No, I don't. And his post suggests that he doesn't either. 

And I get what you're saying and apologize for coming across a bit more aggressive than I should have. But errant sweeping generalizations about criminal law take a toll on me by about late afternoon. The reality is that our criminal codes are vast and a good chunk of seemingly innocuous conduct is actually criminalized. In other words, plenty of good people get charged with crimes and the suggestion that any undocumented alien who commits any crime should be deported is a near-sighted one. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
1. Does this surprise you that President Obama deported this many people?

2. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally but not otherwise breaking laws?

3. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally and also convicted of breaking other laws?
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1. No - we knew this.

2. Maybe.. are they illegally working, not paying taxes, etc?  

3. Of course. (serious laws I take you to mean)

 
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Joe Bryant said:
It's good to have facts. With tension understandably high over Trump's talk of deporting, it's important to weigh that against our current situation.

I was surprised to know these numbers from ABC News showing President Obama has deported more people than any other president.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

Some questions.

1. Does this surprise you that President Obama deported this many people?

2. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally but not otherwise breaking laws?

3. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally and also convicted of breaking other laws?
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When Bush changed what a deportation was ( counting those caught at the border as a deportation vs interior capture and deportation ) it skewed the stats and probably for the reason your post.

Deception.  

Look at the good job we are doing. 

It's pathetic and homeland security secretary had to admit you can't compare Obama's deportations to other President's. 

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/12/deportations-come-mostly-from-border-dhs-chief-say/

Yes it is good to have "facts" that paint the picture the painter wants you to see. 

 
GrandpaRox said:
I have never been to either, but to clear it up I mean jail not just prison. If you could serve jail time you need to go. 

Your intransigence is tipping my scales back to anyone. That would seem to make it easier for you.
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That would make things much easier. 

But, again, I'd be remiss to not point out that there is a wide variety of conduct that, in an empirical sense, don't seem that serious yet could be punishable with jail. Using my jurisdiction as an example, keeping a messy yard, yelling at your spouse, driving on a suspended license, having an open beer in public, and other such minor conduct is punishable with jail time and make up a good chunk of a misdemeanor court docket. 

Seems incredibly harsh to deport an undocumented alien just for that. 

 
It has been demonstrated that people quickly back pedal when illegal workers are removed from industries.

The meat packing effort in Nebraska was particularly hilarious.

Nebraska: GET EM OUT GET EM OUT GET OUT

ICE: OK.. Swift and Tyson - have your workers show up with papers next month.

(Next Month): Meat packing plants shut down because the aliens don't show up to work.

Nebraska:  Hehehe.. we didn't mean it... eh, uh... ICE GET OUT ICE GET OUT GET OUT.  

:lmao:

 
timschochet said:
If he tries it in San Francisco or Los Angeles or San Diego, there is going to be mass riots. He can deport behind the scenes the way Obama did. But if he starts trying to round people up, we're not going to allow it. The local authorities and the police will NOT cooperate, and will defy federal authorities at every turn.
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Add Miami to the list. The president of the largest college in the nation, Eduardo Padron of Miami Dade College, 170,000 students ,  just sent a reassuring email to students and faculty, offering support regardless of immigration status. Last Friday, a peaceful protest shutdown I95 in Miami for 2 hours. Yes, there would be resistance.

 
1. No.

2. Indifferent.

3. Of course.

Just curious, are there any other countries where you can enter illegally AND break the laws and still stay there? 

 
Joe Bryant said:
It's good to have facts. With tension understandably high over Trump's talk of deporting, it's important to weigh that against our current situation.

I was surprised to know these numbers from ABC News showing President Obama has deported more people than any other president.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

Some questions.

1. Does this surprise you that President Obama deported this many people?

2. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally but not otherwise breaking laws?

3. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally and also convicted of breaking other laws?
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2.5 million between 2009-2015 is a tremendous number of people.

Trump wants to do 3 million immediately.

 
Joe Bryant said:
It's good to have facts. With tension understandably high over Trump's talk of deporting, it's important to weigh that against our current situation.

I was surprised to know these numbers from ABC News showing President Obama has deported more people than any other president.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

Some questions.

1. Does this surprise you that President Obama deported this many people?

2. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally but not otherwise breaking laws?

3. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally and also convicted of breaking other laws?
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Here is an article explains why stats using the term "deportation" are misleading

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/21/lies-damned-lies-and-obamas-deportation-statistics/

 
America has been transformed. We will be fortunate if all that happens is trump deports millions of latino immigrants. If a latino tries an assassination attempt on trump, we are looking at war between the us and mexico

 
Riversco said:
America has been transformed. We will be fortunate if all that happens is trump deports millions of latino immigrants. If a latino tries an assassination attempt on trump, we are looking at war between the us and mexico
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Why? What if it's a US born latino? Or from Spain or a Central America Country?

 
Riversco said:
America has been transformed. We will be fortunate if all that happens is trump deports millions of latino immigrants. If a latino tries an assassination attempt on trump, we are looking at war between the us and mexico
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Lets just annex Mexico and be done with it. Texas has worked out fine and our soccer team might be competitive. 

 
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