cstu
Footballguy
#### the draft. Locking American citizens up in interment camps is more American.
"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...unless some bureaucrat decide he wants people dead somewhere and needs extra help."
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Pure Squistion Entertainment (formerly the Colin Kaepernick thread) (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter fantasycurse42
- Start date
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"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...unless some bureaucrat decide he wants people dead somewhere and needs extra help."
jonessed
Footballguy
It was the first time it had been used. It was basically an out so they wouldn't split 4-4.
I don't expect there will be another draft so the conscientious objector argument is rather moot.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Megaton
Footballguy
So you oppose people's right to call him out?. Kaep's freedom to sit on the bench during the anthem is not in jeopardy, it just may be in a park somewhere.
Megaton
Footballguy
Your view on America seems very unbalanced. The reason you hate the national anthem is apparent.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
There have been conscientious objectors to every major military conflict in US history, probably most of the minor ones too.
As for being tried in the Supreme Court, Ali also wasn't the first, not even the first for Vietnam.
Ned
Footballguy
Your posts are about being pissed off about something, more times than not. Time to ween off the roids, man.
As for Cap - he's an idiot. We shouldn't be spending all this energy on that #######.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Maybe not but it's a fairly important cultural topic that has been raised and I'm enjoying the debate. I think it's important to try to get people exposed to other ideas about patriotism and the unique, sometimes bizarre, relationship between the military and American professional sports, especially football.
MT had an insightful post in the other thread about some people being uncomfortable with the traditional American jingoism because it has a tendency to make us think in terms of "us" and "the others." The reaction to patriotic displays just isn't reflexive to some of us. Maybe a lot of us.
timschochet
Footballguy
Dondante
Footballguy
Click-bait journalism at best. It's amazing to me how much coverage this is getting. If this happens in week 2 of the regular season we'd already be done talking about it and ESPN would already be done covering it. Sit, stand..who gives a flip? This is America, right? Football isn't king, it's a damn god.
Kaepernick's actions are reprehensible from a social standpoint, mostly because they seem vapid, contrived and unoriginal, but ironically they're on point from the viewpoint of liberty. It has already been posted in this thread, but where was he during the height of the Ferguson discussion? In my opinion this is a kid who is caught up in and influenced by popular opinion, wants to be relevant and can't play football anymore. The fact that the eeeeeevil, uber-racist Chip Kelly is now his coach surely isn't helping, either.
Kaepernick's actions are reprehensible from a social standpoint, mostly because they seem vapid, contrived and unoriginal, but ironically they're on point from the viewpoint of liberty. It has already been posted in this thread, but where was he during the height of the Ferguson discussion? In my opinion this is a kid who is caught up in and influenced by popular opinion, wants to be relevant and can't play football anymore. The fact that the eeeeeevil, uber-racist Chip Kelly is now his coach surely isn't helping, either.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
BowieMercs
Footballguy
He's just setting up for a lawsuit when they cut him.
massraider
Footballguy
He has an 11.9 mill guarantee from them.
He hates the team, thinks the front office is a joke, and that they misdiagnosed his injuries.
If they cut him, he'll send a fruit basket, not sue.
Dondante
Footballguy
BowieMercs
Footballguy
Once cut, he'll need that $ cuz nobody else will want his baggage. Al Davis is dead.
honky kong
Footballguy
The second paragraph especially captures how I feel about it. Someone earlier in the thread said that nationalism can be a positive and I can see where it can give people a sense of belonging to a larger group but history is littered with examples of nations taking it way, way too far. I think it is something to be vigilant about and I don't think it makes a person anti-American.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Simple solution. Chet Lemon and Lou Whitaker were both Jehovah Witness followers and their faith says not to stand or follow the flag or anthem of any country. So when the anthem was played in Detroit or when they were on the road Lemon and Whitaker would stay in the dugout and run to their positions as soon as it was finished. This wen on their whole careers.
CK could stay in the tunnel and as soon as the anthem is played he could run to the sideline and grab his clipboard and be ready to go.
CK could stay in the tunnel and as soon as the anthem is played he could run to the sideline and grab his clipboard and be ready to go.
BowieMercs
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Megaton
Footballguy
Which is fine when they explain their motives and they did it in a respectful way. Kaep's has stated it was because of the flag and what it stands for. That is pretty much the definition of anti-American.
:meh: really can't be bothered with this manufactured controversy. But, taking a stand, and making your point known is as American as hot dogs, apple pie, and baseball. It does not have to be a good point...
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Yeah, there's nothing "anti-American" about it. Being disrespectful to powerful traditions is kind of what the country was created for.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
So since Chet and Lou did it in the name of a god, that makes it ok? I call BS. If Kaep came out today and said he did it in the name of Allah, you'd be up in ####### arms about it, regardless of how 'respectful' he went about his explanation.
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jonessed
Footballguy
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
So the national media is covering this, message boards are blowing up over this, people at work are all talking about it....hmmm seems to me that he did the right thing 
Now if people want to concentrate on his actions and not the reasons that he did it, well then that's on the person that wants to pretend that things are all ok.
Now if people want to concentrate on his actions and not the reasons that he did it, well then that's on the person that wants to pretend that things are all ok.
massraider
Footballguy
Buzzbait
Footballguy
The guy is a wanna be Muhammad Ali. Loved Ali and everything he championed. I get the feeling that's what CK is trying to do but he's going about it wrong IMO. Sitting for the National Anthem is disgraceful and a slap in the face for what's right in this country and the sacrifices made by others. He has a right to sit and I have a right to think he's dimwitted, misguided tool.
massraider
Footballguy
Yes.So the national media is covering this, message boards are blowing up over this, people at work are all talking about it....hmmm seems to me that he did the right thing
Now if people want to concentrate on his actions and not the reasons that he did it, well then that's on the person that wants to pretend that things are all ok.
By angrily posting about it, people are being used as pawns by Kaepernick. They are doing exactly what Kaep wants.
Be smarter than Colin Kapernick, people.
mr. furley
Footballguy
heard on Dan Patrick this morning.. not sure if it was a media member or just some random caller.
he said in the aftermath of 9/11, the Yankees implemented a policy that people could not leave their seats during the national anthem. they installed chains to block the aisles to discourage people from leaving the stands... in a Steinbrenner attempt to enforce "respect for the flag".
not sure if the literal use of chains to restrict freedom of choice/movement is ironic or...
can't imagine the calamitous result if something HAD happened in Yankee Stadium when the chains were in place. oy vey.. the resulting loss of life from that stampede #signofthecross
he said in the aftermath of 9/11, the Yankees implemented a policy that people could not leave their seats during the national anthem. they installed chains to block the aisles to discourage people from leaving the stands... in a Steinbrenner attempt to enforce "respect for the flag".
not sure if the literal use of chains to restrict freedom of choice/movement is ironic or...
can't imagine the calamitous result if something HAD happened in Yankee Stadium when the chains were in place. oy vey.. the resulting loss of life from that stampede #signofthecross
Megaton
Footballguy
If being against everything America stands for is not anti-American, then what is? Besides, why does anyone get upset about calling someone un-American? That is free speech too. Seems like throwing labels around like bigot for the filmiest of reasons is tolerable, but don't dare call someone anti-American.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Did we gloss over the part where he said that there's no difference between the U.S. flag and the Confederate battle flag?
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
Here is the transcript of the post game interview, where did he say that?
Why did you choose to do this?
Colin Kaepernick: People don't realize what's really going on in this country. There are a lot of things that are going on that are unjust. People aren't being held accountable for. And that's something that needs to change. That's something that this country stands for freedom, liberty and justice for all. And it's not happening for all right now.
Is this something that has evolved in your mind?
CK: It's something that I've seen, I've felt, wasn't quite sure how to deal with originally. And it is something that's evolved. It's something that as I've gained more knowledge about, what's gone on in this country in the past, what's going on currently. These aren't new situations. This isn't new ground. There are things that have gone on in this country for years and years and have never been addressed, and they need to be.
Will you continue to sit?
CK: Yes. I'll continue to sit. I'm going to continue to stand with the people that are being oppressed. To me, this is something that has to change. When there's significant change and I feel like that flag represents what it's supposed to represent, this country is representing people the way that it's supposed to, I'll stand.
What are some of the specific things you believe need to change?
CK: There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality. There's people being murdered unjustly and not being held accountable. People are being given paid leave for killing people. That's not right. That's not right by anyone's standards.
So many people see the flag as a symbol of the military. How do you view it and what do you say to those people?
CK: I have great respect for the men and women that have fought for this country. I have family, I have friends that have gone and fought for this country. And they fight for freedom, they fight for the people, they fight for liberty and justice, for everyone. That's not happening. People are dying in vain because this country isn't holding their end of the bargain up, as far as giving freedom and justice, liberty to everybody. That's something that's not happening. I've seen videos, I've seen circumstances where men and women that have been in the military have come back and been treated unjustly by the country they have fought for, and have been murdered by the country they fought for, on our land. That's not right.
Do you personally feel oppressed?
CK: There have been situations where I feel like I've been ill-treated, yes. This stand wasn't for me. This stand wasn't because I feel like I'm being put down in any kind of way. This is because I'm seeing things happen to people that don't have a voice, people that don't have a platform to talk and have their voices heard, and affect change. So I'm in the position where I can do that, and I'm going to do that for people that can't.
Is this the first year that you've sat during the anthem?
CK: This year's the first year that I've done this.
How have your teammates responded?
CK: The support I've gotten from my teammates has been great. I think a lot of my teammates come from areas where this might be the situation. Their families might be put in this situation. It's something that I've had a lot of people come up to me and say, 'I really respect you for what you're doing and what you're standing for.' So to me, that's something that I know what I'm doing was right and I know other people see what I'm doing is right, it's something that we have to come together. We have to unite. We have to unify and make a change.
Some people have said they agree with your message, but you went about it the wrong way. What would you say to that?
CK: I don't understand how it's the wrong way. To me, this is a freedom that we're allowed in this country. And going back to the military, it's a freedom that men and women that have fought for this country have given me this opportunity by contributions they have made. So I don't see it as going about it the wrong way. This is something that has to be said, it has to be brought to the forefront of everyone's attention, and when that's done, I think people can realize what the situation is and then really affect change.
Did you expect it to become this big of a deal?
CK: It wasn’t something that I really planned as far as it blowing up. It was something that I personally decided -- I just can’t stand what this represents right now. It’s not right. And the fact that it has blown up like this, I think it’s a good thing. It brings awareness. Everybody knows what’s going on and this sheds more light on it. Now I think people are really talking about it, having conversations about how to make change. What’s really going on in this country. And we can move forward.
Are you concerned that this can be seen as a blanket indictment of law enforcement in general?
CK: There is police brutality. People of color have been targeted by police. So that’s a large part of it and they’re government officials. They are put in place by the government. So that’s something that this country has to change. There’s things we can do to hold them more accountable. Make those standards higher. You have people that practice law and are lawyers and go to school for eight years, but you can become a cop in six months and don’t have to have the same amount of training as a cosmetologist. That’s insane. Someone that’s holding a curling iron has more education and more training than people that have a gun and are going out on the street to protect us.
Do you plan to do things beyond sitting during the national anthem, as far as activism?
CK: Yeah, most definitely. There are things that I have in the works right now that I’m working on to put together in the future and have come to fruition soon. Those are things that I’ll talk about as we get closer to those days.
Any concern about the time of this and the possibility of it being a distraction?
CK: No, I don’t see it being a distraction. It’s something that can unify this team. It’s something that can unify this country. If we have these real conversations that are uncomfortable for a lot of people. If we have these conversations, there’s a better understanding of where both sides are coming from. And if we reach common ground, and can understand what everybody’s going through, we can really affect change. And make sure that everyone is treated equally and has the same freedom.
Has anyone from the NFL or team asked you to tone it down?
CK: No. No one’s tried to quiet me and, to be honest, it’s not something I’m going to be quiet about. I’m going to speak the truth when I’m asked about it. This isn’t for looks. This isn’t for publicity or anything like that. This is for people that don’t have the voice. And this is for people that are being oppressed and need to have equal opportunities to be successful, to provide for families and not live in poor circumstances.
In your mind, have you been pulled over unjustly or had bad experiences?
CK: Yes, multiple times. I’ve had times where one of my roommates was moving out of the house in college, and because we were the only black people in that neighborhood, the cops got called and we had guns drawn on us. Came in the house, without knocking, guns drawn on my teammates and roommates. So I have experienced this. People close to me have experienced this. This isn’t something that’s a one-off case here or a one-off case there. This has become habitual. This has become a habit. So this is something that needs to be addressed.
Colin, you’re the only player in the NFL taking this stand. Why do you think you’re the only one doing this?
CK: I think there’s a lot of consequences that come along with this. There’s a lot of people that don’t want to have this conversation. They’re scared they might lose their job. Or they might not get the endorsements. They might not be treated the same way. Those are things I’m prepared to handle. Things that other people might not be ready for. It’s just a matter of where you’re at in your life. Where your mind is at. At this point, I’ve been blessed to be able to get this far and have the privilege of being able to be in the NFL, making the kind of money I make and enjoy luxuries like that. I can’t look in the mirror and see people dying on the street that should have the same opportunities that I've had. And say ‘You know what? I can live with myself.’ Because I can’t if I just watch.
Do you think you might get cut over this?
CK: I don’t know. But if I do, I know I did what’s right. And I can live with that at the end of the day.
Does this have anything to do with your relationship with the 49ers or the NFL?
CK: No, this is about the way people have been treated by this country.
How long did you talk when you addressed the team?
CK: It was a conversation. They asked me to talk and just explain why I did what I did and why I felt the way I felt. I had an open conversation with them; I told them why I felt that way and looked at things the way I do. A lot of it has to do with the history of the country and where we’re currently at. I opened it up to all my teammates [and said], "Come talk to me if you have any questions. If you want to understand what I’m thinking further, come talk to me." It shouldn’t be something that should be hidden. These conversations need to happen and can bring everybody closer.
Were there people who disagreed?
CK: There were people that said, "I want to understand further. Let’s talk." So I’ve had those conversations and will continue to have them with my teammates. It’s something that -- the knowledge of what’s happened in this country and what’s currently happening, I think everybody needs to know. And when you have the knowledge of those things, you can make an educated decision on what you really feel and what you really stand for.
Is the focus going to be on football or this?
CK: No, we’re focused on football while we’re in meetings, while we’re on the field. That’s what our focus is. But in our free time, we have conversations about this. That’s not something that we should be ashamed about or shy away from. We talked about football, we handled our business there, but there’s also a social responsibility that we have to be educated on these things and talk about these things.
Did you consider trying to recruit teammates to join you?
CK: This isn’t something I’m going to ask other people to put their necks out for what I’m doing. If they agree with me and feel strongly about it, then by all means, I hope they stand with me. But I’m not going to go and try to recruit people and be like, "Hey, come do this with me" because I know the consequences that come with that, and they need to make that decision for themselves.
Did you reach out to anyone to seek guidance before doing this?
CK: This is a conversation I’ve had with a lot of people a lot of times over a long period of time, so it wasn’t something that I planned on having a conversation about at a particular time. It just so happened it was the other night that people realized it and talked about it.
Any concern that the focus is on you and not the issues?
CK: I do think that the talk has been more about me, more about I know a lot of people’s initial reactions thought it was bashing the military, which it wasn’t. That wasn’t my intention at all. I think now that we have those things cleared up, we can get to the root of what I was saying and really address those issues.
Are there any other players who feel the same but are not ready to step forward publicly?
CK: Yeah, I know there’s other players that feel the same way. I’ve had other players reach out to me. Once again, it’s not something I’m going to ask them to put their necks out. I know the consequences that come along with my decision, and if they feel strongly and want to stand with me, then I hope they do. If it’s something they’re not ready for, then that’s what the conversations are for, and they can make that decision when they’re ready or if they’re ready.
Do you fear for your safety on road trips?
CK: Not really too concerned about that. At the end of the day, if something happens, that’s only proving my point.
Dr. Harry Edwards was at practice today. Has he been helpful?
CK: Once again, it wasn’t something I consulted anybody on. It was a conversation I had when someone asked me about it. Dr. Edwards is a good friend, he’s someone I talk to a lot and run things by and have a lot of conversations with, and we have a lot of similar views.
Does the fact that this is an election year have anything to do with the timing?
CK: It wasn’t a timing thing, it wasn’t something that was planned. But I think the two presidential candidates that we currently have also represent the issues that we have in this country right now.
Can you expound on that?
CK: You have Hillary [Clinton], who has called black teens or black kids super predators. You have Donald Trump, who is openly racist. We have a presidential candidate (Clinton) who has deleted emails and done things illegally and is a presidential candidate. That doesn’t make sense to me. If that was any other person, you’d be in prison. So what is this country really standing for?
It is a country that has elected a black president twice ...
CK: It has elected a black president, but there are also a lot of things that haven’t changed. There are a lot of issues that still haven’t been addressed, and that’s something over an eight-year term. There’s a lot of those things that are hard to change, and there’s a lot of those things that he doesn’t necessarily have complete control over.
What would be a success for you in the short term on this?
CK: That’s a tough question because there’s a lot of things that need to change, a lot of different issues that need to be addressed. That’s something that it’s really hard to lock down one specific thing that needs to change currently.
squistion
Footballguy
He is not being against everything America stands for. Please. He is saying what this country stands for is not being practiced:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/49ers-quarterback-colin-kaepernick-defends-national-anthem-protest-n639116
"This country stands for freedom, liberty, justice for all — and it's not happening for all right now," Kaepernick said.
Megaton
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Sweet J
Footballguy
I don't think I have a problem with anything he said here. Maybe, MAYBE I could quibble with his statement about hairdressers having more training than police who fire guns. But even that point is solid (i.e., if a person has the power to take a citizen's life, we really, really, really, need to make sure that person is exceptionally trained; and recent shootings have shown us that our police training can be a lot better).
All in all, I think it is a solid explanation and discussion piece.
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Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Quoting that whole post is more offensive than anything Kaep did
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Apparently he said it in a Tweet, where he posted a picture of the US Flag and the Confederate battle flag, and wrote "The fact that you really believe that is a difference in these flags means that your ignoring history."
Parrothead
Footballguy
i'm sorry, I only pay attention to protests by starters
Sweet J
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Maybe, maybe not. This certainly is not going to help is career. Although if/when he is cut by the 49ers (which seems likely) he will eventually catch on with another team, maybe not right away but after this blows over. Teams are always looking for backup QBs, even mediocre ones. If Jimmy Clausen's services are in demand then he should land somewhere.
However, his "protest" has drawn more attention to his message than if he had given 1000 interviews. If he had given a press conference and gave the same message, I doubt there would be a thread about or that we would be talking about it in this forum (with the possible exception of the Black Lives Matter thread and I am not sure of that).
roadkill1292
Footballguy
It may be that you are choosing not to listen to it in the right context.
To your other not very good point, being called "un-American" is an insult without much sting since defining what really is "American" is pretty much an exercise in futility. If somebody wants to call me "un-American" because I don't think the national anthem should be played at athletic events, then I am pretty confident that I'm dealing with someone with a fairly narrow interpretation of the term and I am unconcerned.
Being a racist isn't very ambiguous and something I'm trying very hard not to be. Sometimes it's really easy to spot, too, like when a certain fella got in trouble for not renting his properties to black folks a few years back. Nobody likes that guy.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
For those that are liking this, who the messenger is clearly means nothing to you. This is a guy who has been at the center of tension between a locker room for years - There's usually a reason your teammates don't like you. I'd conclude he's a selfish loser, but that's obviously speculation and can be argued to death. Furthermore, his actions of delivering this message are being done very incorrectly IMO (glad to see the majority of posters here agree with that).
If you're going to get an NFL guy to champion a message, someone like Cam would be much better. This is a guy liked by his team bc he's a leader, but much more importantly appears to care heavily about the charities he has been highly visible in for years.
Some of you would probably be happy with a domestic violence summit ran by Greg Hardy.
If you're going to get an NFL guy to champion a message, someone like Cam would be much better. This is a guy liked by his team bc he's a leader, but much more importantly appears to care heavily about the charities he has been highly visible in for years.
Some of you would probably be happy with a domestic violence summit ran by Greg Hardy.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Megaton
Footballguy
It is a convoluted way to get his message across. If he says he believes in liberty, freedom, and justice for all, then why be disrepectful to the flag which represents that. That is why most people don't get his message nor really cares what it is.
It is not un-American to not want the national anthem and sporting events, but to me the arguments against come across as a phobia-like fear of nationalism.
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