Seems like things are pointing to sticking with him, agree long term commitment at this point could be huge mistake.
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QB Daniel Jones, NYG (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Interseptopus
- Start date
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Easy to look good when you are playing the pathetic Vikings defense, but he looked bad last night. To be fair, though, the entire Giants team looked like hot garbage.
Boston
Footballguy
That type of contract would work for the Giants but Jones could get a much better offer if he hits FA...I get why they did it at the time but not picking-up that 5th year option may really backfire on them...he made a big jump this year, but he is still a question mark as far as giving a big contract to and that 5th year would allow more time to evaluate...will be interesting to see how this plays out.
babydemon90
Footballguy
Jones got blown out twice by the Eagles this year, and couldn't even manage to get to 200 yards passing in either one. He definitely improved this year, but there's still some questions. Looking good against the Vikings isn't saying much. I mean Mac Jones put up 382 yards against the Vikes this year.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
yeah - agree completely. DJ is lucky that there’s massive demand for signal callers right now - some team might bet on him for a multi-year contract.
IMO that would be foolish. But what that market does is set up the Giants to have to overpay or risk losing progress /continuity, even if DJ isn’t the long-term answer (and again, I am skeptical he is, despite his growth this year.
Also I am starting to question how much of that was actually growth, and how much was Dabol getting the most out of what he had, and partly hiding his flaws by limiting his downfield passing, and putting him in a position to succeed.
Heck, the Giants best (and only TD) drive last night had DJ barely involved.
It’s a really fascinating situation that could bite the Giants whichever way they go. I agree they probably should have exercised his option when they had the chance.
That said, I could also see them in the market for Carr, who’d probably be an upgrade. Dabol can probably get more out of someone like Carr, too.
Boston
Footballguy
You hit on it...there is no doubt Dabol's coaching had a dramatic effect on Jones...now the question is did he max it out or is it just the beginning...the answer to what Dabol thinks about that question will be known by what the commitment is in their contract offer.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Another thought is what Giants fans want.
1 game shouldn’t matter that much, but against a team they’ll see 2x a year it’s a good measuring tape.
I imagine before yesterday’s game Giants fans were bullish on Jones development. Last night we saw a lot of regression to the issues he’s been knocked for his whole career - pocket awareness, mental clock, ball security, and inability to make multiple reads. On the pick he stared down the receiver the whole way. Several times he missed open secondary options and ran instead.
I know he doesn’t have great WR depth, but if he’s not looking past his 1st read, does it really matter?
Boston
Footballguy
The interesting thing is how do they evaluate him...if this was his rookie year, they would be ecstatic...if it was his second, they would probably be very pleased but this was his 4th year...now he had awful coaching his first three years so it's not all on him...this will be very interesting to watch because while the G-men took a huge step forward they still have a lot of holes to fill and right off the bat they have to figure out Jones and Barkley.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yeah, I’m not convinced you franchise Barkley in this RB market, and especially with the crazy depth in this draft.
Boston
Footballguy
Another very difficult decision...there is depth in the draft, but Saquon is elite and the hub of that offense...they are already subpar at WR and Jones still has questions...paying an RB at his age is always dicey and usually a bad move but if they lose Barkley, they could take a huge step backwards....they definitely have their work cut out for them this offseason.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Agreed. The good news for Giants fans is that they have a pretty solid brain trust.
The bad news is that Don Martindale is getting roasted for last night’s game, which I feel is unfair considering the holes they have on defense. Can only do so much with what ya have.
which is why you don't spend big money on any RB, especially an older, injured one.
will also be reluctant to spend big money on Danny Dimes.
maximum commitment will be short term or with easy outs with a lot of incentive money.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Agree, but as @Boston & I have been saying, that’s gonna be a tricky situation for the Giants, unless Danny wants to take a discount to stay - and I’m not sure why he would. Too many teams need a QB right now.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens.
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
"Early sense: An extension with Saquon will be easier than Jones. So they’ll want to get something done with Saquon early so they have the tag available for Jones"
Actually no. I was thinking of George Pickens and Alec Pierce or even Sky Moore. But that was a doozy of a day it seems.
Believe I read the tag for Barkley would be roughly $10MM, but the tag for Jones would be $35MM! They have $60MM in cap space so can handle it but they have other holes to fill too.
They were supposedly interested in Cooks prior to the trade deadline, a late 2nd would get it done, maybe the Texans take a 3rd, IDK. He’d be a good fit and they could restructure his deal to lower his cap # pretty easily plus cut Golladay to free up some space. They’d still have their 1st to spend on another WR or other needs or trade down.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Franchise Tag may be an expensive one year option - but if I'm the Giants, unless Jones is offering a significant discount, that's the only route I would consider. Give him one more season to "prove it". A long term deal just has so much potential disaster.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I think it’s crazy.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I thought this new regime was coming in to rebuild. Ironically the success they had this season (which had some luck involved) may be what does them in - since now they think they have to bring Jones and Barkley back. I get that it would be hard to go backwards, but that may happen anyway while you pay Daniel Jones $40MM to lead the way.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I had that same thought this AM when I saw that NY wanted to bring DJ back.
That said, wanting to bring him back, and paying him 40M to come back would seem to be different things in NFL-GM-Speak.
They kinda blew it by not picking up his option when they had the chance - at the same time, I am of the opinion that you do not pay DJ $40M just because your new HC squeezed that much juice out of him. Imagine what Dabol could do with an even better QB.
Yenrub
Footballguy
The franchise tag for QB is at a little over 32M so I assume Jones’ agent will say that is the floor.
babydemon90
Footballguy
How do you get that even better QB tho? I agree tho, you're fine with a Daniel Jones in 20-25 mil range where you can use that cap space to put lots of talent around him. At 40 mil you're forcing him to be the guy who can elevate the rest of team, which may or may not be what happens.
Alternately you draft a rookie QB and hope you get lucky?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Outbid Seattle for Geno?
Trade for Carr?
Trade up to take Young or Stroud?
If Dabol believes 2022 was DJ’s ceiling, then any of those would seem to be excellent options.
Yenrub
Footballguy
Spotrac has the market value for Geno at 39M. Geno is also 32 years old.
Derrick Carr is also 32 years old, his contract is set at 32M for 2023 then jumps up to 41M in 2024.
If all three of these QB’s are going to cost about the same, I think the Giants would be better off paying the younger Jones.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
while he earned it, I'd sure be reluctant to hand out a huge contract to Geno Smith - a "career year" at 32 worries me a bit.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I was just spitballing - could be JimmyG for $20M
The Frankman
Footballguy
The fear for me is that the Giants do the Triple combo (a.k.a The Sum of All Fears)
1) Pay Jones more than $25 million/give him a a multi-year deal
2) NOT pay Saquon Barkley
3) Draft a WR in the 1st round with a skillset that Jones historically has not had success working with
Not only would the Giants be locked into the worst-case "Miami Ryan Tannehill" situation with Jones eating way too much cap, they would be removing the teams' best offensive weapon that helped hide Jones' flaws all year. Then to make it worse, draft a WR in the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft (Giants desperately need help more at LB/CB) who may not ever mesh with Jones unless his vision/accuracy improve.
1) Pay Jones more than $25 million/give him a a multi-year deal
2) NOT pay Saquon Barkley
3) Draft a WR in the 1st round with a skillset that Jones historically has not had success working with
Not only would the Giants be locked into the worst-case "Miami Ryan Tannehill" situation with Jones eating way too much cap, they would be removing the teams' best offensive weapon that helped hide Jones' flaws all year. Then to make it worse, draft a WR in the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft (Giants desperately need help more at LB/CB) who may not ever mesh with Jones unless his vision/accuracy improve.
I'd rather keep Jones than go after Geno or Jimmy G. He's younger and I'd argue just better. I'm not a huge Jones fan or anything, but dude made it work with practice squad WRs. Jones would have killed for a Lockett or Aiyuk let alone a Metcalf or Deebo/Kittle.
This is interesting to me. Well, I can certainly agree with the 3rd point, I think I disagree with the other 2. 25 million isn't all that much for a solid QB (though I would probably prefer a deal of 3 or fewer years) and the recent history of re-signing RBs to big money deals has been a universal failure, the following RBs signed big deals in the last few years:
CMC, elite when healthy, but also was traded for cap space/rebuilding.
Kamara, hasn't been worth it. Was he a Brees/Payton creation?
Zeke, arguably NFL's worst contract, and it was obvious at the time.
Dalvin, has noticeably slowed down, and offense has arguably been better with Mattison the last 2 years.
Henry, elite when healthy, but Titans look like a team ready to rebuild/blow it up.
Chubb, looks good for now, but only 1 year in.
A. Jones, he's been solid, but they likely would have been better off spending elsewhere and just starting Dillon (maybe spending 25% the price to keep Jamaal as the #2 if they wanted)
Mixon, hasn't been missed when he's out.
Each of those teams knew the history of signing RBs to big long-term contracts and said to themselves, whatever, our guy is different, he won't be another Todd Gurley, David Johnson, or DeVonta Freeman, and while many haven't been as bad as them, I'm not sure any of those teams made the right call. Browns and Titans may have, Cowboys, Saints, and Vikings certainly didn't.
I feel like Barkley is closest to Cook of those guys. He isn't the guy who takes over games like Chubb or Henry, and he's not as versatile as CMC (nobody is) I'd be ok with tagging Barkley, but no way would I want to give him a big deal.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I feel like Daboll got the most out of Daniel Jones by limiting his passing. certainly didn’t turn those scrubs into stars, and ok, he did a lot with his legs which helped to minimize the mistakes he’s been known for his entire career.
Unfortunately, even at the end of the season, he was not capable of commanding the offense so much as caretaking - again, so he wouldn’t make mistakes. Daboll certainly didn’t seem to trust Jones in critical situations, settling for draws or short dump-offs on 3rd and long when in BUF he (Daboll) would have aggressively thrown for the sticks. And speaking of dump-offs, how friggin hard is it to float one 5 yards laterally to Barkley?! Time after time he missed that bunny, leaving hundreds of yards and probably a couple TDs on the field.
And even with his improved play, Jones still showed a lack of willingness to make more than one read, often had a poor pocket clock, didn’t throw the ball away when it was obvious a play was going nowhere, would often stare down his receiver, and would tuck the ball and run way too early rather than letting a play develop and standing tall in the pocket.
These were frequent subjects of discussion in the Giants game topics throughout the year.
I won’t deny that he was improved versus the last few years, but I still don’t think he’s a 25, 30, or $40 million quarterback. Nor do I think he’s better than JimmyG or Carr would be - at least they’re capable of multiple reads and wouldn’t automatically throw a pick in 3rd and 13, for example.
35-40M? Oof. Not sure what the answer is for the Giants, but I don’t think it’s Daniel Jones.
I agree that Jones is not a great QB, and 35-40 million would be foolish. That said, I don't see a problem with 25. I'm also not sure the bolded is fair. I mean, if the argument is Daboll didn't trust Jones as much as he did Josh Allen, well good luck finding a QB as good as Josh Allen. I certainly don't see Jimmy G as a better option. He doesn't get to take Kittle, Deebo or even Aiyuk with him. Carr is probably a sideways move, and will likely cost more money and draft capital.
Jones had a worse supporting cast than pretty much any QB in the NFL. I mean, Isaiah Hodgins was probably the best WR by season's end, and he was a practice squad WR, and is likely at best a #3 WR. Even if Wan'Dale Robinson can fully recover, the Giants need 2 new starting WRs, and its not like TE was good either. I think a lot of Jones issues were simply lack of open WRs, which often leads to poor pocket clock, and tucking and running.
I'm not arguing Jones is some great QB. A-F scale, he's probably a C, which is what I'd call Carr as well. I'd call Jimmy G a C-. I also think Jones mobility is an important weapon for this team, at least until they get much better weapons. Right now, Jones legs are arguably the biggest threat to opposing defenses.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I don’t disagree with this. It was an important weapon. I said as much above. That said. I also think it’s an often a crutch that keeps Jones from checking down - sometimes it worked well. Sometimes it didn’t.
I dunno. It’s a tough question as to what NYG should do. I don’t think Jones will settle for $25M. I don’t blame him. Giants didn’t pick up is option - they were betting against him improving. He did, and now the market for starting QBs seems pretty strong given the lack of available starters Vs the number of teams in need.
Someone’s gonna offer Jones more than $25M.
There was talk a week or so back that they might be able to sign Jones for 4 years/$120mm/$80mm guaranteed. If they do that, and franchise Barkley for the $10mm, that could be a reasonable middle of the road approach to their current situation. It will give them time to fix some other holes and continue moving in the right direction.
If Jones continues to improve with better weapons, they can extend him in a couple of years. And if he does not, paying Barkley on a multi-year deal won't make sense. I also suspect Barkley will wish he had taken the $12mm per offered during the bye week. I don't see Schoen offering him more than that.
If Jones continues to improve with better weapons, they can extend him in a couple of years. And if he does not, paying Barkley on a multi-year deal won't make sense. I also suspect Barkley will wish he had taken the $12mm per offered during the bye week. I don't see Schoen offering him more than that.
Where would you rank him right now in a standard league?
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
You really think that? Who, exactly? Give us the teams you think will do so.
And if you're right, whoever does it, good luck!
Daniel Jones isn't going to the next level. He's made some progress, FINALLY, but the ceiling is near. It's not like that was his rookie year.
You really think he's gonna get offered "MORE THAN 25M"??? GLWT.
habsfan
Footballguy
The trouble is, you being right about "the ceiling being near" and someone suggesting he'll get more than $25M are not mutually exclusive concepts. 15 QBs are making that (or more) right now and the market isn't softening.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
The amount of available QBs is a limited market. Jones will almost certainly get offered more than $25MM by at least one team. Look at how many teams need a QB - and there’s only two “pro ready” guys coming out.
Washington
NYJ
NYG
Atlanta
New Orleans
Houston
Seattle (if Geno leaves)
Carolina
Tampa Bay
Arizona (to start the season)
Denver (unfortunately they’re suck with a corpse)
Indianapolis
Las Vegas
Do I need to keep going?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Thanks for taking the time - seemed obvious, but then, that’s why I have that user on ignore.
If the franchise number is close to $25M as reported, there will be plenty of teams that will either match or exceed it in a QB-starved landscape.
Heck, if JimmyG is going to get upwards of 25-30M, Danny Dimes is absolutely going to get that much.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I hate to speak in absolutes when it comes to the NFL - but anyone paying attention to the NFL shouldn’t be shocked when Jones signs a contract paying him more than $25MM next year. He’s a flawed QB but is coming off a very very good season.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
it’s going to be really interesting to see what happens if he’s on another team next year.
If he’s as good or better, I will eat my crow about him.
If he’s worse, then clearly Daboll got the most out of him.
I’d bet on the latter. What’s amazing is that the Giants clearly weren’t betting on that, or they would have exercised his option. It’s really shocking that they did not in hindsight. Even if he didn’t improve, he would have been a cheap backup (or in competition with whomever they brought in) relatively speaking.
Now they basically have to plant a flag to see if he can be better, or if that was near his ceiling, as I’d previously asserted.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
After season 2 and 3, it wasn’t that surprising. I think the plan was to move on from him after this season, but he played much better and fit the system much better than they anticipated.
zamboni
Footballguy
And/or Daboll got him to fit the system. That guy can really coach.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
This is what I saw. They limited his downfield throwing, encouraged him to turn a limitation (inability to make multiple reads/check-down) into a strength (if it’s not there on the 1st read, run!) while reducing his role / shifting a lot of the burden to Saquan.
There were still warts & mistakes, but more often than not it was effective.
We are in a world where Kirk Cousins has been getting in excess of a $25MM avg per year for over 5 years now (he’s up to $35MM now.) The Elite guys are getting averages at $45MM per year, Burrow is likely to blow that out. Franchise tag is $32MM, I could see NYG going with something like a Cousins short term 3 year deal with a big avg and lots guaranteed, but an out in 2 to 3 years in case Jones turns back into a pumpkin. Jones might take that if betting on himself as he could cash in again sooner. Either way, Danny Dimes gonna get paid.
I threw out the 25 million number as where I valued Jones. I think he could get 40 million, I just think whoever makes that move probably regrets it.
In my opinion, if you count Rodgers, then between the draft and FAs, there are 8 QBs on the market I prefer to Jones. For the record, Derek Carr and Jimmy Garoppolo are not on that list.
In my opinion, if you count Rodgers, then between the draft and FAs, there are 8 QBs on the market I prefer to Jones. For the record, Derek Carr and Jimmy Garoppolo are not on that list.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I don’t think he ever actually graduated from “pumpkin”, it’s just that Daboll is the pumpkin whisperer.
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