QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (3 Viewers)

[candian fantasy guy]

See Zeke case for clarity guys.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

1. Anything premised with ‘if’ defies conclusive word.

again: it depends on the outcome of the NFL investigation. I never said it didn’t.

2. A civil filing is not ‘evidence of wrongdoing’ and requires no evidence of anything. It’s an allegation.

I didn’t say it was. I said there must be some evidence for them to be suing. That’s called “speculation on my part” and that should have not required this explanation. 

3. You can’t really use an apple to conclude on the orange. It could have been brought to grand jury for PR cover alone. What we do know is the GJ only wanted to hear from one, ONE, of the accusers in attendance before deciding against probable cause.

I’m not. But in order to proceed to a GJ, the DA has to determine that there was sufficient evidence. 

I’m not an attorney - but I followed this closely and that’s what every attorney I’ve read has said. 

Just to be clear, I’m not saying they are not credible. I find it a curious word. Words like that have meaning.

When 22 women are making the same accusation, it seems credible. 

whether it proves to be true is another story. Roethlisburger & Zeke weren’t convicted of any crime either. It is what it is. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

See Zeke case for clarity guys.

Bingo. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Your #2 was the biggest #2 ever.  Jesus

Re-read it and try again. I think you’re misunderstanding what I said.

There must be evidence is an opinion, not a statement of fact. It is my opinion that they have evidence, or they would not be suing him civilly. 

 

[ghostguy123]

Re-read it and try again. I think you’re misunderstanding what I said.

There must be evidence is an opinion, not a statement of fact. It is my opinion that they have evidence, or they would not be suing him civilly. 

I asked you what FACTS would they suspend for, and you have proceeded to give me a bunch of half assed explained opinions.

First time ever I may have to put someone on ignore.  Congrats.

 

[BigJim®]

again: it depends on the outcome of the NFL investigation. I never said it didn’t.

I didn’t say it was. I said there must be some evidence for them to be suing. That’s called “speculation on my part” and that should have not required this explanation. 

I’m not. But in order to proceed to a GJ, the DA has to determine that there was sufficient evidence. 

I’m not an attorney - but I followed this closely and that’s what every attorney I’ve read has said. 

When 22 women are making the same accusation, it seems credible. 

whether it proves to be true is another story. Roethlisburger & Zeke weren’t convicted of any crime either. It is what it is. 

‘Seems credible (to you) when 22 women allege something’, I’d have no issue with at all. Saying the NFL will suspend due to 22 credible claims… nope.

I’ll await the NFL conclusion on that, and support whatever that conclusion is.

 

[menobrown]

Latest report is he's going to sleep on it, but no timeline given.

He's basically on an extended FA tour.

He's no Russell Wilson when it comes to planning out your next move that's for sure.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

‘Seems credible (to you) when 22 women allege something’, I’d have no issue with at all. Saying the NFL will suspend due to 22 credible claims… nope.

I’ll await the NFL conclusion on that, and support whatever that conclusion is.

I didn’t. I said the NFL will suspend base on the outcome of their investigation. 

I’ve said this a dozen times since this started.

If the investigation determines that the women are indeed credibly accusing him, expect a suspension regardless of legal outcomes.

see: Big Ben & Zeke

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Some news so we all stop arguing semantics over whether or not Watson is Rapey McRaperson;

”DESHAUN WATSONQB, HOUSTON TEXANS

PFT Mike Florio reports that Deshaun Watson is "incredibly torn" between the four teams that made presentations to him.

It's starting to sound like the Watson decision won't come tonight, as rumored earlier by Jay Glazer. Florio adds that there's "no specific timeline for a decision." The Browns, Saints, Panthers, and Falcons all have offers out, and all had ownership/general manager/head coach delegations meet with Watson over the past three days. The decision looks to be holding up quite a bit of free agency as well, so this carries importance beyond just Watson's next team. “

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

First time ever I may have to put someone on ignore.  Congrats.

Oh come on. Now you’re just being silly. 

 

[-OZ-]

If they give him 6 games, that means they believe him to have committed some of these incredibly ridiculous and horrible things, and are then saying "yeah basically rape is 6 games for us".

As opposed to saying they have no factual evidence to suspend.

Not to diminish the accusations but did they allege RAPE? It’s entirely plausible for the NFL to find sexual misconduct here without the court finding assault or rape. I’d view it potentially equivalent to conduct unbecoming an officer or civil servant. 
Conduct by anyone in the league that is illegal, violent, dangerous, or irresponsible puts innocent victims at risk, damages the reputation of others in the game, and undercuts public respect and support for the NFL. We must endeavor at all times to be people of high character; we must show respect for others inside and outside our workplace; and we must strive to conduct ourselves in ways that favorably reflect on ourselves, our teams, the communities we represent, and the NFL.
 

…even if the conduct does not result in a criminal conviction, players found to have engaged in any of the following conduct will be subject to discipline. Prohibited conduct includes but is not limited to the following:
 Actual or threatened physical violence against another person, including dating violence, domestic violence, child abuse, and other forms of family violence;
 Assault and/or battery, including sexual assault or other sex offenses;
 Violent or threatening behavior toward another employee or a third party in any workplace
setting;
 Stalking, harassment, or similar forms of intimidation;
 Illegal possession of a gun or other weapon (such as explosives, toxic substances, and the like), or possession of a gun or other weapon in any workplace setting;
 Illegal possession, use, or distribution of alcohol or drugs;
 Possession, use, or distribution of steroids or other performance enhancing substances;
 Crimes involving cruelty to animals as defined by state or federal law;
 Crimes of dishonesty such as blackmail, extortion, fraud, money laundering, or racketeering;
 Theft-related crimes such as burglary, robbery, or larceny;
 Disorderly conduct;
 Crimes against law enforcement, such as obstruction, resisting arrest, or harming a police officer or other law enforcement officer;
 Conduct that poses a genuine danger to the safety and well-being of another person; and
 Conduct that undermines or puts at risk the integrity of the NFL, NFL clubs, or NFL persons

there’s plenty of room here to discipline him, assuming the league believes any of the accusations. 

 

[BigJim®]

I didn’t. I said the NFL will suspend base on the outcome of their investigation. 

I’ve said this a dozen times since this started.

If the investigation determines that the women are indeed credibly accusing him, expect a suspension regardless of legal outcomes.

see: Big Ben & Zeke

Ok, that post was confusing. The OP asked about factual evidence and your reply was "22 credible claims" and then when I asked what you meant by that term you gave a list of things, like civil complaints and bringing to GJ, that seemed like you were supporting a conclusion. My bad if I did not follow you. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

there’s plenty of room here to discipline him, assuming the league believes any of the accusations. 

and, it bears repeating, it only has to meet that incredibly low bar on the basis of the NFL’s internal investigation.

And as @Anarchy99aptly points out, we live in a different time than Roethlisburger or even Zeke’s issues. And they each got 6 games.

It wouldn’t shock me at all to see Watson get 6.

it would surprise me to see him get a year; as some have asserted. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Ok, that post was confusing. The OP asked about factual evidence and your reply was "22 credible claims" and then when I asked what you meant by that term you gave a list of things, like civil complaints and bringing to GJ, that seemed like you were supporting a conclusion. My bad if I did not follow you. 

And my bad to both you & @ghostguy123if I wasn’t completely clear. I’m working on taxes and not putting every waking moment into articulating whether Watson will be suspended and for how long. 

 

[Soulfly3]

no team is giving up that load and he gets suspended a year. 

the league would never do that to a franchise. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

no team is giving up that load and he gets suspended a year. 

the league would never do that to a franchise. 

I have no idea where the “year” speculation is coming from.

it wouldn’t be in concert with prior sexual misconduct suspensions. 

 

[ffmail4me]

And it wouldn't surprise me if he gets LESS than 6 games. 

Again, there are people in this world that are willing to lie in order to get a payday. It's VERY possible some of these women felt he did something inappropriate and are justified in the civil lawsuits. It's also VERY possible a bunch of other people piled on to get paid. So are all 22 accusations credible? We certainly don't know that they are now do we? I can't get past the fact that ZERO of 22 women called the police after their session with him. That just seems so hard to believe if they guy was forcing himself over and over on 22 different women.   

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Latest report is he's going to sleep on it, but no timeline given.

He's basically on an extended FA tour.

He's no Russell Wilson when it comes to planning out your next move that's for sure.

Maybe he would like to phone a friend or poll the audience...it's obvious that he doesn't truly want to play for any of these teams but he has come to the conclusion that these are teams willing to trade for him. Miami and New York are not going to get involved. 

It's absurd how much these teams are getting down on their knees for Watson, this is a terrible look for the NFL, Goodell will be compelled to throw the book at Watson. Take it to the Bank Bro-Wats  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

And it wouldn't surprise me if he gets LESS than 6 games. 

Again, there are people in this world that are willing to lie in order to get a payday. It's VERY possible some of these women felt he did something inappropriate and are justified in the civil lawsuits. It's also VERY possible a bunch of other people piled on to get paid. So are all 22 accusations credible? We certainly don't know that they are now do we? I can't get past the fact that ZERO of 22 women called the police after their session with him. That just seems so hard to believe if they guy was forcing himself over and over on 22 different women.   

To my knowledge there was no allegation of rape.

To the point about not calling the police, there’s a long history of sexual assault victims not calling the police. A lot goes into that, and this isn’t the place for an extended discussion, but IIRC it’s something like 90% of victims do not. Social stigma, personal shame, fear of backlash - it’s a big subject. That part should be the least surprising. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Maybe he would like to phone a friend or poll the audience...it's obvious that he doesn't truly want to play for any of these teams but he has come to the conclusion that these are teams willing to trade for him.
 

I’m not getting that read. I mean, all of these franchises have historically been run better than the Texans. As such any should be considered an upgrade. 

 

[ffmail4me]

To my knowledge there was no allegation of rape.

To the point about not calling the police, there’s a long history of sexual assault victims not calling the police. A lot goes into that, and this isn’t the place for an extended discussion, but IIRC it’s something like 90% of victims do not. Social stigma, personal shame, fear of backlash - it’s a big subject. That part should be the least surprising. 

That's shocking to me, but I'm no expert. But I do believe "Hell hath no furry like a scorned woman" so hard to imagine some of these women wouldn't have gladly called the police once he was gone and the session was over. But again, only Watson, these women and God knows what happened on those tables behind closed doors. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

But again, only Watson, these women and God knows what happened on those tables behind closed doors. 

now THAT is a fact. 

 

[barackdhouse]

To my knowledge there was no allegation of rape.

To the point about not calling the police, there’s a long history of sexual assault victims not calling the police. A lot goes into that, and this isn’t the place for an extended discussion, but IIRC it’s something like 90% of victims do not. Social stigma, personal shame, fear of backlash - it’s a big subject. That part should be the least surprising. 

I am blown away by the knuckle dragger argument "why didn't they call the police?"

2022 and people are still peddling that line. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I'm guessing they will go with the 6-game personal conduct policy violation like they did with Zeke. I don't see the optics where they ignore 22 complaints from women and don't do anything. They gave Big Ben 6 games and reduced it to four over two allegations. But that was 12 years ago and the climate has changed a lot since then.

To be fair Ben allegedly literally raped at least one woman and possibly a second. Most of what Watson is accused of is more just super creepy. But overall I agree that in this climate it’s probably 4-6 games.

 

[BigJim®]

And it wouldn't surprise me if he gets LESS than 6 games. 

I agree with a prior poster who said the NFL is in an impossible position. If they suspend for 6 games, that becomes an embarrassment to the league if it is way too light pending some unknown outcomes. Or, an injustice to Watson in others. If they suspend a year, it’s still light in some outcomes, and a more egregious injustice to Watson if he is vindicated.

Worse yet, the NFL probably can’t publically air what their own investigation determined without prejudicing either the plaintiffs’ case or Watson’s defense.

JMHO, the NFL would be best off just publicly acknowledging these realities and say they will await an outcome to the civil complaints. They seem to be doing that anyway, just in a secretive manner that opens them to scrutiny.

 

[ffmail4me]

I am blown away by the knuckle dragger argument "why didn't they call the police?"

2022 and people are still peddling that line. 

If this is a shot at me, I'm sorry you feel a need to talk down to me. I view women as strong, not docile or pushovers. I would expect if they were treated uncomfortably that many would not hesitate to pick up the phone and call the police. This isn't rape we are talking about (where I am sure they are deep deep feelings we can't understand). Are you implying their gender is so weak or so easily wrecked that they can't pick up a phone to report someone was creepy or out of line? Not 1 in 22 could do it? I'm not buying it, sorry. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I agree with a prior poster who said the NFL is in an impossible position. If they suspend for 6 games, that becomes an embarrassment to the league if it is way too light pending some unknown outcomes. Or, an injustice to Watson in others. If they suspend a year, it’s still light in some outcomes, and a more egregious injustice to Watson if he is vindicated.

Worse yet, the NFL probably can’t publically air what their own investigation determined without prejudicing either the plaintiffs’ case or Watson’s defense.

JMHO, the NFL would be best off just publicly acknowledging these realities and say they will await an outcome to the civil complaints. They seem to be doing that anyway, just in a secretive manner that opens them to scrutiny.

But they can’t do nothing.  

it’s a difficult position but it’s one they’ve navigated before.

They'll go with what’s best for business, which is the lesser of 2 evils.  They’ll suspend a player who hasn’t been charged with a crime because they can’t be seen as not taking any action for such a massive allegation. 

The League isn’t the criminal Justice system - they’ll mete out whatever punishment they see fit based on what they know.  As @Dr. Octopussaid, this is more about creepy behavior than accusations of rape.

But there are 22 of them & it’s been going on for a while. 

I agree that 4-6 is most likely here. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think everyone has been pretty fair and have raised decent points in here - even if I don’t agree with all of them. Let’s not turn this into a name calling contest or politicize it. At this point all we can really do is wait and see what the NFL does anyway.

 

[BigJim®]

But they can’t do nothing.  

it’s a difficult position but it’s one they’ve navigated before.

They'll go with what’s best for business, which is the lesser of 2 evils.  They’ll suspend a player who hasn’t been charged with a crime because they can’t be seen as not taking any action for such a massive allegation. 

The League isn’t the criminal Justice system - they’ll mete out whatever punishment they see fit based on what they know.  As @Dr. Octopussaid, this is more about creepy behavior than accusations of rape.

But there are 22 of them & it’s been going on for a while. 

I agree that 4-6 is most likely here. 

Respectfully disagree. They have not acted in nearly a year after the massive allegation. If they were inclined to do something to protect the brand, it would have already happened. If anything, GJ finding of no criminality supports doing nothing at all… yet.

 

[BassNBrew]

no team is giving up that load and he gets suspended a year. 

the league would never do that to a franchise. 

They'd do it to the Browns.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Respectfully disagree. They have not acted in nearly a year after the massive allegation. If they were inclined to do something to protect the brand, it would have already happened. If anything, GJ finding of no criminality supports doing nothing at all… yet.

That, too, is consistent with NFL SOP.  They haven’t acted because they’ve been letting the legal process run its course.  

they’ve been very clear about their position there for the entire time. 

 

[BigJim®]

That, too, is consistent with NFL SOP.  They haven’t acted because they’ve been letting the legal process run its course.  

they’ve been very clear about their position there for the entire time. 

Right, in the midst of little to no public scrutiny or outrage to fear. The.only stories in March 2022 are about how many NFL teams are jockeying to pay a ransom to get this player on their team - with not even localized outrage or scrutiny concerning suspension, other than of course considering risk of suspension as a downside acquiring him. I’m not saying it is right. I’m not saying it’s not a sad depiction of society. It’s a reality though for one who is arguing something has to occur to protect a brand.

 

[DJackson10]

I really think there is like a 40% chance Watson isn't suspended at all. 

I agree I wouldn't be shocked if he wasn't suspended. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Right, in the midst of little to no public scrutiny or outrage to fear. The.only stories in March 2022 are about how many NFL teams are jockeying to pay a ransom to get this player on their team - with not even localized outrage or scrutiny concerning suspension, other than of course considering risk of suspension as a downside acquiring him. I’m not saying it is right. I’m not saying it’s not a sad depiction of society. It’s a reality though for one who is arguing something has to occur to protect a brand.

I don’t disagree with much of that. It’s a bad look. It’s a hard situation. I don’t pretend to have all the answers - I’m just guessing at what they’ll do based on what they’ve said and how they’ve handled situations like this in the past.

I don’t think they expected the DA to spend a year investigating before concerning a GJ. The process took a long time.

While that delay may be unprecedented, the way they’ll handle this from here should be pretty straightforward. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I agree I wouldn't be shocked if he wasn't suspended. 

I have a very hard time believing that. 40% seems generous. I’ll give it a 10% chance he isn’t suspended. 

 

[DJackson10]

Re-read it and try again. I think you’re misunderstanding what I said.

There must be evidence is an opinion, not a statement of fact. It is my opinion that they have evidence, or they would not be suing him civilly. 

My understanding just without knowing anything before is with a Civil case they have evidence of wrong doing but not enough  to take it to a trial as a criminal case for a prosecution. I forget the different between the two and maybe one of the lawyers here can explain that better. However my mom is going through a case with her pool right now and asked a lawyer she knows his opinion on the case and review it. Basically he said it'd be hard to find a lawyer to take the case as they won't get a lot of $$$$ out of it but they are well off on a civil suit because it forces the defendants to hire lawyers instead and then you can go from there. 

From what I've heard from a few insiders with knowledge of the case but not specifics, is there is evidence Watson did wrong but the women's attorney don't have enough evidence in the lawyers opinion to take it to court or they haven't found that crucial evidence. When you take someone to court to put them in Jail a jury and Judge want hard hard evidence that the guilty are guilty. You can't have anything with "well maybe they did it", "Well this could've happened instead" etc. Basically they need they are defiantly did this. 

 

[ffmail4me]

In other words innocent until PROVEN guilty. As it should be. 

 

[Anarchy99]

In other words innocent until PROVEN guilty. As it should be. 

Except the NFL is not a court. The league can take whatever disciplinary action they want. They don’t even really need a reason. That power was solidified by the Brady court case. 

 

[barackdhouse]

If this is a shot at me, I'm sorry you feel a need to talk down to me. I view women as strong, not docile or pushovers. I would expect if they were treated uncomfortably that many would not hesitate to pick up the phone and call the police. This isn't rape we are talking about (where I am sure they are deep deep feelings we can't understand). Are you implying their gender is so weak or so easily wrecked that they can't pick up a phone to report someone was creepy or out of line? Not 1 in 22 could do it? I'm not buying it, sorry. 

Don't ever talk to me again.

 

[GregR]

My understanding just without knowing anything before is with a Civil case they have evidence of wrong doing but not enough  to take it to a trial as a criminal case for a prosecution. I forget the different between the two and maybe one of the lawyers here can explain that better.

Not a lawyer, but:

Crimes must generally be proved "beyond a reasonable doubt", whereas civil cases are proved by lower standards of proof such as "the preponderance of the evidence" (which essentially means that it was more likely than not that something occurred in a certain way). 

 

[Doug B]

Pointsbetusa isn’t a big enough anything to have this kind of info. They are likely hedging their money so they don’t get caught at 50-1 if he picks the Saints. 

Our local paper is now running a story that Caesars and MGM have also dropped the Saints’ odds. Down to 18:1 at Caesars.

Could still be hedging, of course. No info about whether odds of the other suitors have changed similarly.

https://www.nola.com/sports/betting/article_46fc1f9a-a574-11ec-af8a-8321d25e2468.html

 

[Soulfly3]

I have no idea where the “year” speculation is coming from.

footballguys shark pool

 

[Ministry of Pain]

According to Charles Robinson of Yahoo Sports, some teams believe Watson will presumably face a six-game suspension under the NFL’s personal conduct policy, which can be handed down to players in instances of alleged assault and does not require a legal verdict of guilt. The NFL can use their own discretion to add or subtract from that suspension pending the results of their investigation.

In 2010, the NFL suspended Ben Roethlisberger for six games following an accusation of sexual assault. Like Watson’s case, charges were not brought against Roethlisberger. His case involved one accusation, Watson’s currently involves 22.

It is certain that teams interested in trading for Watson are working their contacts around the league to unearth as much information on his potential suspension as possible. Any team that trades for him will have to have a plan in place for the first half of the season as well as giving up as much as five high-level assets.

 

[Obie Wan]

And it wouldn't surprise me if he gets LESS than 6 games. 

Again, there are people in this world that are willing to lie in order to get a payday. It's VERY possible some of these women felt he did something inappropriate and are justified in the civil lawsuits. It's also VERY possible a bunch of other people piled on to get paid. So are all 22 accusations credible? We certainly don't know that they are now do we? I can't get past the fact that ZERO of 22 women called the police after their session with him. That just seems so hard to believe if they guy was forcing himself over and over on 22 different women.   

entirely possible the ambulance chasing plaintiff lawyer crafted a story line based on 1 or 2 women's statements and conducted a campaign to recruit other massage therapists who would be willing to "sign on" to his fact pattern.

since there has been zero consequences for bringing embellished lawsuits chasing a big payday - why wouldn't a bunch of women sign up and attempt to cash in on a settlement

the grand jury did not buy the story line - so maybe his conduct is not at indefensible as the claims would want you to believe.

good chance there is minimal suspension, just for NFL to save face

 

[Foosball God]

entirely possible the ambulance chasing plaintiff lawyer crafted a story line based on 1 or 2 women's statements and conducted a campaign to recruit other massage therapists who would be willing to "sign on" to his fact pattern.

since there has been zero consequences for bringing embellished lawsuits chasing a big payday - why wouldn't a bunch of women sign up and attempt to cash in on a settlement

the grand jury did not buy the story line - so maybe his conduct is not at indefensible as the claims would want you to believe.

good chance there is minimal suspension, just for NFL to save face

There isn't zero consequences for these women.  They face intense scrutiny, loss of business, threats, people accuse them of being gold diggers and whores.

I'm not saying none of those women could be making up or embellishing things, but saying they face no consequences for their accusations is just wrong and it's a huge reason why a lot of women don't come forward at all.

 

[Apple Juice]

Great thread for updating ignore lists. The less I know about people on a FF board the better. 

 

[Doug B]

Maybe meaningful, maybe not: The Saints have now cleared enough cap space to be nearly $30 million under, per ESPN beat writer Field Yates.

Someone in the comments wrote that the Browns did something similar, but I don't have details on that.

EDIT: They'd need room for either Watson or Jameis Winston, thinking about it some more.

 

[ffmail4me]

Don't ever talk to me again.

Don't tell me what to do.

 

[zed2283]

If this is a shot at me, I'm sorry you feel a need to talk down to me. I view women as strong, not docile or pushovers. I would expect if they were treated uncomfortably that many would not hesitate to pick up the phone and call the police. This isn't rape we are talking about (where I am sure they are deep deep feelings we can't understand). Are you implying their gender is so weak or so easily wrecked that they can't pick up a phone to report someone was creepy or out of line? Not 1 in 22 could do it? I'm not buying it, sorry. 

As usual, women are equal... until they're not (i.e. don't want to be).

 

[Faust]

Field Yates @FieldYates

The Saints have restructured the contracts of QB Taysom Hill, CB Bradley Roby, LB DeMario Davis and S Malcolm Jenkins to clear major cap space, per source. 

The Saints are now officially at $29.9M in cap space

https://twitter.com/fieldyates/status/1504448378964520965?s=21

Adam Schefter 

There is still no Matt Ryan contract restructure in Atlanta, nor any agreement on one.

And the Saints can almost already afford Deshaun Watson if the quarterback wanted to go to New Orleans.

https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1504449598722617355?s=21