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QB J.J. McCarthy, MIN (2 Viewers)

Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
Having seen how KOC runs his offenses for years?

It’s definitely faith-based. However, I would humbly suggest that how much leash KOC gives JJM is likely a trust issue. And IMO most who watched that comeback would say that JJM has earned substantially more trust.

A zebra doesn’t change its stripes, is the idiom that comes to mind. The question becomes “how large a sample size do you need to start believing the Vikings will regress to their mean?”

2 games?
3?

Does JJM have to play 6 or 7 games before he’s unleashed? Or did he do enough in that comeback win for KOC to nod sagely and deploy his entire playbook?

Because the 1st half of that game kinda felt like a little old lady driving a Porsche 5 mph below the speed limit. Personally I do have faith that KOC will give JJM as much as he thinks he can handle as quickly as he thinks he can handle it.

You may believe otherwise. Time will tell whose belief was justified.

ETA — in the bonus round, pop quiz hot shot: do you think Darnold could have led the Vikings to that comeback? Just curious.
 
Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
Having seen how KOC runs his offenses for years?

It’s definitely faith-based. However, I would humbly suggest that how much leash KOC gives JJM is likely a trust issue. And IMO most who watched that comeback would say that JJM has earned substantially more trust.

A zebra doesn’t change its stripes, is the idiom that comes to mind. The question becomes “how large a sample size do you need to start believing the Vikings will regress to their mean?”

2 games?
3?

Does JJM have to play 6 or 7 games before he’s unleashed? Or did he do enough in that comeback win for KOC to nod sagely and deploy his entire playbook?

Because the 1st half of that game kinda felt like a little old lady driving a Porsche 5 mph below the speed limit. Personally I do have faith that KOC will give JJM as much as he thinks he can handle as quickly as he thinks he can handle it.

You may believe otherwise. Time will tell whose belief was justified.

I sort of said that might be the case. Eventually the offense will open up. If they continue to gave a Pass Rate Over Expected that sits below O’Connell’s career average is that sufficient proof? Because you’ve already sort of rejected that as purely situational. It’s like “we will allow no evidence that is evidence because it doesn’t fit our narrative.”

I don’t know. It’s no big deal and he might have a totally open playbook. Let’s check back in a month and see.
 
O’Connell had to let McCarthy throw or it was a loss. I dunno.
I don’t think Darnold wins that game. Lacks the moxie, wouldn’t have been able to run in the option TD, isn’t mentally tough enough. But that’s just like, my opinion, man.

And I’m higher on Darnold than you - I just don’t think he has that drive in him.

I also think Darnold has at least 1 more turnover in that game.
 
I’m bullish on McCarthy, O’Connell, and Mason. I’m the first cat here in March to say it and say it’s Mason’s job to win and he will win it. So I’m not rooting against them at all.
 
I’m bullish on McCarthy, O’Connell, and Mason. I’m the first cat here in March to say it and say it’s Mason’s job to win and he will win it. So I’m not rooting against them at all.
Oh I know. It’s a fun discussion though, and also fun trying to handicap it. We have some data points. We think we know some things about the coach. We definitely know about the talent level of that offense.
 
Yeah, I’m not at all going to take a 1-game sample size on the road on MNF as a trend.

Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
The offense they are running is the same offense they ran last season with Darnold. It will just be better because McCarthy is better than Darnold.

Of course that may take some time for the offense to fully gel and find their identity. Every team is different. But if you think the Vikings are going to avoid passing the ball because of McCarthy I think you are wrong and the evidence is KOCs tendencies.

I dont think you know this team well enough to make such a assumption.
 
Yeah, I’m not at all going to take a 1-game sample size on the road on MNF as a trend.

Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
The offense they are running is the same offense they ran last season with Darnold. It will just be better because McCarthy is better than Darnold.

Of course that may take some time for the offense to fully gel and find their identity. Every team is different. But if you think the Vikings are going to avoid passing the ball because of McCarthy I think you are wrong and the evidence is KOCs tendencies.

I dont think you know this team well enough to make such a assumption.

Uh, I already accounted for that evidence. I explicitly stated it. I've been following along also. We will see week by week how they play it. RIght now, you're relying on the chicken/farmer fallacy. You have no idea what Kevin O'Connell will do with JJ McCarthy as his QB. It's a problem with inductive logic. It's generally not considered determinative. In fact, it's considered so weak that they won't allow general modus operandi claims in a criminal trial because they're considered potentially erroneous and prejudicial against the defendant.

It stems from the certainty and foundational aspects of that type of argument. It's a bit stickler-ish, but it's generally relied upon in hope and not in certainty.

It's the problem with induction and causation in general.

Problem of Induction​

The story of the chicken and the farmer is a well-known illustration of the philosophical problem of induction, a concept first explored by David Hume and later popularized by Bertrand Russell. The chicken, fed every morning by the farmer, observes this pattern repeatedly and uses inductive reasoning to predict that the farmer will always bring food. This belief is based on the assumption that the future will resemble the past, a fundamental principle of inductive logic. However, the chicken's prediction is catastrophically wrong when the farmer, on an unremarkable day, wrings its neck instead of feeding it. This outcome demonstrates the inherent flaw in inductive reasoning: no matter how many times a pattern is observed, it cannot guarantee that the pattern will continue, as a single counterexample can disprove a general rule.

The anecdote highlights that inductive reasoning, while practical and necessary for everyday life, cannot provide logical certainty. The chicken's conclusion that the farmer will always feed it is not logically justified, even though it is supported by extensive empirical evidence. This illustrates Hume's argument that the justification for induction is itself inductive, creating a circular argument that cannot be resolved logically. The chicken's fate serves as a metaphor for the limitations of relying on past experience to predict the future, a problem that extends beyond animal behavior to scientific theories, economic models, and human decision-making. The story underscores the need for a critical approach, such as Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability, where theories must be testable and potentially disprovable, rather than simply supported by confirming instances
 
They threw the ball a total of twenty times. I didn’t know that. It’s not like they didn’t have an entire season to plan for the game. They flat out threw the ball less than everybody but the Ravens. He went 13-20 for 143 yards. What the heck? Was that one half of football? I didn’t even check the stats. No crap they’re going to open up the playbook more. Zach Wilson was allowed to throw the ball as much.

Oh dear. Let’s give this a month, I like wasted an hour of mental energy debating a game where the guy threw the ball twenty times?! And some homer says I do not know enough about the team??!

HFS.

I forgot I was online.
 
Yeah, I’m not at all going to take a 1-game sample size on the road on MNF as a trend.

Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
The offense they are running is the same offense they ran last season with Darnold. It will just be better because McCarthy is better than Darnold.

Of course that may take some time for the offense to fully gel and find their identity. Every team is different. But if you think the Vikings are going to avoid passing the ball because of McCarthy I think you are wrong and the evidence is KOCs tendencies.

I dont think you know this team well enough to make such a assumption.

Uh, I already accounted for that evidence. I explicitly stated it. I've been following along also. We will see week by week how they play it. RIght now, you're relying on the chicken/farmer fallacy. You have no idea what Kevin O'Connell will do with JJ McCarthy as his QB. It's a problem with inductive logic. It's generally not considered determinative. In fact, it's considered so weak that they won't allow general modus operandi claims in a criminal trial because they're considered potentially erroneous and prejudicial against the defendant.

It stems from the certainty and foundational aspects of that type of argument. It's a bit stickler-ish, but it's generally relied upon in hope and not in certainty.

It's the problem with induction and causation in general.

Problem of Induction​

The story of the chicken and the farmer is a well-known illustration of the philosophical problem of induction, a concept first explored by David Hume and later popularized by Bertrand Russell. The chicken, fed every morning by the farmer, observes this pattern repeatedly and uses inductive reasoning to predict that the farmer will always bring food. This belief is based on the assumption that the future will resemble the past, a fundamental principle of inductive logic. However, the chicken's prediction is catastrophically wrong when the farmer, on an unremarkable day, wrings its neck instead of feeding it. This outcome demonstrates the inherent flaw in inductive reasoning: no matter how many times a pattern is observed, it cannot guarantee that the pattern will continue, as a single counterexample can disprove a general rule.

The anecdote highlights that inductive reasoning, while practical and necessary for everyday life, cannot provide logical certainty. The chicken's conclusion that the farmer will always feed it is not logically justified, even though it is supported by extensive empirical evidence. This illustrates Hume's argument that the justification for induction is itself inductive, creating a circular argument that cannot be resolved logically. The chicken's fate serves as a metaphor for the limitations of relying on past experience to predict the future, a problem that extends beyond animal behavior to scientific theories, economic models, and human decision-making. The story underscores the need for a critical approach, such as Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability, where theories must be testable and potentially disprovable, rather than simply supported by confirming instances
Due respect, but we witnessed what JJM was capable of, under the bright lights, on the road, against a good defense.

While past performance doesn’t guarantee future results, we also have a pretty robust track record with KOC, correct? We know from experience that KOC has a propensity to be slightly pass heavy. We also know that KOC has a track record of success with QBs.

Putting it all together, while true we are using inductive reasoning, we are also making logical assumptions. Sure, while your friend the farmer eventually choked his chicken, the chicken’s presumption that she was about to be fed was logical. She had a reasonable expectation that a meal was coming. And from a probability standpoint, given that he’d fed her frequently enough over a long enough duration, she had a significantly higher probability of being correct. After all, she ate multiple times. Hundreds perhaps. She was only murdered once.

I’m just saying - we know a lot of things about KOC. We can make reasonable assumptions about how KOC will coach based on how he has coached. Many on this very forum predicted the demise of the Vikings passing game when Sam Darnold was named the starting QB. That only resulted in a 4300 yard season. The Hume anecdote is somewhat flawed, btw. By Hume’s anecdotal logic, the sun might not rise tomorrow, just because it rose today. So while Hume is somewhat correct when speaking of economics, or even recently dispatched chickens, he is most certainly going to sound like a raving lunatic if he starts yammering about how the sun might not rise tomorrow just because it did today. Is it not also induction that tells us the sun will rise tomorrow? Early man didn’t have the knowledge that the Earth is orbiting the sun, resulting in sunrises or sunsets. They used induction to form their belief, and they were never wrong.

Round hole for a square peg. It’s not all about induction. KOC will continue to push the ball downfield because KOC pushes the ball downfield. As sure as that fireball rises in the east. He has a strong-armed QB & elite receiving talent. I’m not using induction, btw, I’m using observation.

I concede you could be correct. KOC might become more conservative with a rookie QB. I doubt it, but it is possible. He sure didn’t come out chucking the ball around Willy Nilly on MNF. But hey, now we’re using inductive reasoning to say he was conservative on MNF, so he’ll remain conservative. That might be a paradox.
:)
 
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Yeah, the sunrise problem is also a famous one that Hume explicitly deals with vis a vis induction, although I think (and most people would likely agree with me upon first blush) that his conclusions are completely untenable but not disprovable. It's a rather long explanation and Hume discusses exactly your counter about the sun rising. I'll post a link to a summary tomorrow or the next day. But drop/add is happening and I need to do it. I can say that Hume's conclusion is not that it's just uncertain that the sun will rise in the morning, it's actually that you have absolutely no rational basis upon which to argue (and I'm being careful with my wording) that the sun is more likely to rise in the morning than it is to be replaced with a billion tulips. He says both beliefs are irrational and absurd. But that's for another day.
 
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If we redrafted today, he goes in front of Maye, and probably NIx.
What about Pennix?
I'm a big Pennix guy, let me see top of my head

Allen
Lamar
Hurts
Jayden

Burrow
Dak
Baker - keeping in this tier due to Egbuka

Fields
Mahomes - dropping due to Worthy
Kyler

And then we get to the blob

If I"m pulling right this moment, and I am saying we get full runs of Mooney and London

Penix
Nix - keeping him ahead of McCarthy for now due to Payton but coin flip
McCarthy
Maye
Purdy

I'm dipping Purdy due to the injuries
No Herbert?
 
If we redrafted today, he goes in front of Maye, and probably NIx.
What about Pennix?
I'm a big Pennix guy, let me see top of my head

Allen
Lamar
Hurts
Jayden

Burrow
Dak
Baker - keeping in this tier due to Egbuka

Fields
Mahomes - dropping due to Worthy
Kyler

And then we get to the blob

If I"m pulling right this moment, and I am saying we get full runs of Mooney and London

Penix
Nix - keeping him ahead of McCarthy for now due to Payton but coin flip
McCarthy
Maye
Purdy

I'm dipping Purdy due to the injuries
No Herbert?
Dang you’re right,top of my head

I’m super bullish. Tier 2 for Herbert
 
Yeah, I’m not at all going to take a 1-game sample size on the road on MNF as a trend.

Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
The offense they are running is the same offense they ran last season with Darnold. It will just be better because McCarthy is better than Darnold.

Of course that may take some time for the offense to fully gel and find their identity. Every team is different. But if you think the Vikings are going to avoid passing the ball because of McCarthy I think you are wrong and the evidence is KOCs tendencies.

I dont think you know this team well enough to make such a assumption.

Uh, I already accounted for that evidence. I explicitly stated it. I've been following along also. We will see week by week how they play it. RIght now, you're relying on the chicken/farmer fallacy. You have no idea what Kevin O'Connell will do with JJ McCarthy as his QB. It's a problem with inductive logic. It's generally not considered determinative. In fact, it's considered so weak that they won't allow general modus operandi claims in a criminal trial because they're considered potentially erroneous and prejudicial against the defendant.

It stems from the certainty and foundational aspects of that type of argument. It's a bit stickler-ish, but it's generally relied upon in hope and not in certainty.

It's the problem with induction and causation in general.

Problem of Induction​

The story of the chicken and the farmer is a well-known illustration of the philosophical problem of induction, a concept first explored by David Hume and later popularized by Bertrand Russell. The chicken, fed every morning by the farmer, observes this pattern repeatedly and uses inductive reasoning to predict that the farmer will always bring food. This belief is based on the assumption that the future will resemble the past, a fundamental principle of inductive logic. However, the chicken's prediction is catastrophically wrong when the farmer, on an unremarkable day, wrings its neck instead of feeding it. This outcome demonstrates the inherent flaw in inductive reasoning: no matter how many times a pattern is observed, it cannot guarantee that the pattern will continue, as a single counterexample can disprove a general rule.

The anecdote highlights that inductive reasoning, while practical and necessary for everyday life, cannot provide logical certainty. The chicken's conclusion that the farmer will always feed it is not logically justified, even though it is supported by extensive empirical evidence. This illustrates Hume's argument that the justification for induction is itself inductive, creating a circular argument that cannot be resolved logically. The chicken's fate serves as a metaphor for the limitations of relying on past experience to predict the future, a problem that extends beyond animal behavior to scientific theories, economic models, and human decision-making. The story underscores the need for a critical approach, such as Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability, where theories must be testable and potentially disprovable, rather than simply supported by confirming instances
Nonsense.
 
This kid and his attitude makes it easy to root for him. I like the vibes the Vikings are showing from the coach on down. I think they may be my new adopted team until Jerruh gets his head out of his posterior.
 
Yeah, I’m not at all going to take a 1-game sample size on the road on MNF as a trend.

Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
The offense they are running is the same offense they ran last season with Darnold. It will just be better because McCarthy is better than Darnold.

Of course that may take some time for the offense to fully gel and find their identity. Every team is different. But if you think the Vikings are going to avoid passing the ball because of McCarthy I think you are wrong and the evidence is KOCs tendencies.

I dont think you know this team well enough to make such a assumption.

Uh, I already accounted for that evidence. I explicitly stated it. I've been following along also. We will see week by week how they play it. RIght now, you're relying on the chicken/farmer fallacy. You have no idea what Kevin O'Connell will do with JJ McCarthy as his QB. It's a problem with inductive logic. It's generally not considered determinative. In fact, it's considered so weak that they won't allow general modus operandi claims in a criminal trial because they're considered potentially erroneous and prejudicial against the defendant.

It stems from the certainty and foundational aspects of that type of argument. It's a bit stickler-ish, but it's generally relied upon in hope and not in certainty.

It's the problem with induction and causation in general.

Problem of Induction​

The story of the chicken and the farmer is a well-known illustration of the philosophical problem of induction, a concept first explored by David Hume and later popularized by Bertrand Russell. The chicken, fed every morning by the farmer, observes this pattern repeatedly and uses inductive reasoning to predict that the farmer will always bring food. This belief is based on the assumption that the future will resemble the past, a fundamental principle of inductive logic. However, the chicken's prediction is catastrophically wrong when the farmer, on an unremarkable day, wrings its neck instead of feeding it. This outcome demonstrates the inherent flaw in inductive reasoning: no matter how many times a pattern is observed, it cannot guarantee that the pattern will continue, as a single counterexample can disprove a general rule.

The anecdote highlights that inductive reasoning, while practical and necessary for everyday life, cannot provide logical certainty. The chicken's conclusion that the farmer will always feed it is not logically justified, even though it is supported by extensive empirical evidence. This illustrates Hume's argument that the justification for induction is itself inductive, creating a circular argument that cannot be resolved logically. The chicken's fate serves as a metaphor for the limitations of relying on past experience to predict the future, a problem that extends beyond animal behavior to scientific theories, economic models, and human decision-making. The story underscores the need for a critical approach, such as Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability, where theories must be testable and potentially disprovable, rather than simply supported by confirming instances
Nonsense.

Yeah, I expected that. No skin off my nose. You threw the ball twenty times. Total. In a professional football game. Your RPOE was -17% and KOC is usually like +20 or something. It’s staggering.

Argument is over and it’s really time for those whom I have time for (not you).
 
So, what I'm getting out of all this is Kevin O'Connell is going to murder JJ.

Right?
Via strangulation, yes.

@rockaction still hasn’t addressed the paradox that he is also using induction to suggest JJM won’t throw more than 20x because he only threw 20x.

But it probably doesn’t matter because KOC will soon strangle JJM. It’s a tough league.
 
Yeah, the sunrise problem is also a famous one
Did you think I mentioned it by accident?
:lol:

Then you should know the answer and give it a month instead of keeping on with a point that is either a) irrational per Hume or b) is trying to rebut my stronger evidence that is more likely based on recent evidence that makes it more probable

Dunno. Give it a month.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
The pick-6 was a “tip your cap to the DB” play - he threw where he was supposed to with anticipation. Corner just made a hell of a play on that ball.
And Jefferson did not. Instead of breaking flat to the sideline he broke upfield. Not sure who was wrong but either the throw was wrong or Jettas was wrong. Not sure which.
 
b) is trying to rebut my stronger evidence that is more likely based on recent evidence that makes it more probable
Your “evidence” isn’t stronger. That’s the paradox.

I believe KOC will continue to throw at a high rate because historically he has. You believe 20 pass attempts is the new normal because of 1 game. My body of evidence is substantially larger than yours.

We’re both using induction. Why would a 1-game sample size be stronger than the body of historical data on KOC?
:shrug:

ETA: Bertrand Russell‘s anecdote attempting to illustrate Hume’s statement on induction is flawed, because a chicken reasons differently than a human. The chicken will continue eating daily until her timely death. A human would question why someone was feeding them for free.

Our inductive reasoning is more robust than a chicken’s - we have the capacity to look at more evidence, which is what I was eluding to above.

To wit, “The chicken's error is not a problem with induction itself, but with performing it using insufficient information.”
 
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And Jefferson did not. Instead of breaking flat to the sideline he broke upfield. Not sure who was wrong but either the throw was wrong or Jettas was wrong. Not sure which.
JTO breaks it down pretty well in the clip. He gives most of the credit to the DB for read/react. JJM was throwing to a spot. The pass wasn’t perfect, but it wasn’t bad.
 
RIght now, you're relying on the chicken/farmer fallacy.
I could be off and totally misunderstanding your position, and if so I apologize, but the main fallacy you should probe is your (apparent) questioning whether JJ McCarthy is a passing QB. Aside from a 1-game NFL sample with a rookie playing his first NFL game on the road for MNF, I assume that doubt stems from his lack of passing production at Michigan. However, the fact Michigan passed less in the second half of games with huge leads doesn't logically support that doubt. Interesting facts on McCarthy's college stats:

* 50% lower statistics in 2nd half of games, obviously playing with leads (1,996/14 TDs on 217 attempts in 1st half vs. 995/7 on 116 attempts in 2nd half)
* Regardless of quarter/use, his comp % was consistent in 2nd (70.6), 3rd (70.7) and 4th (70.6) quarters

Would you agree this information suggests McCarthy appeared fully capable of passing for 4000 yards/28 TDs in his final college season - if that was needed of him? That would have placed him 3rd in the 2023 college class in terms of passing yards, behind only Penix (4903) and Nix (4508).

You also posted something earlier about the team being reimagined to be a slowed down offense, and I respectfully disagree. My take was the upgrades to interior OL were specifically seeking improved pass protection for a rookie QB vs a finesse/smaller zone run blocking strength previously sought in recent years.
 
RIght now, you're relying on the chicken/farmer fallacy.
I could be off and totally misunderstanding your position, and if so I apologize, but the main fallacy you should probe is your (apparent) questioning whether JJ McCarthy is a passing QB. Aside from a 1-game NFL sample with a rookie playing his first NFL game on the road for MNF, I assume that doubt stems from his lack of passing production at Michigan. However, the fact Michigan passed less in the second half of games with huge leads doesn't logically support that doubt. Interesting facts on McCarthy's college stats:

* 50% lower statistics in 2nd half of games, obviously playing with leads (1,996/14 TDs on 217 attempts in 1st half vs. 995/7 on 116 attempts in 2nd half)
* Regardless of quarter/use, his comp % was consistent in 2nd (70.6), 3rd (70.7) and 4th (70.6) quarters

Would you agree this information suggests McCarthy appeared fully capable of passing for 4000 yards/28 TDs in his final college season - if that was needed of him? That would have placed him 3rd in the 2023 college class in terms of passing yards, behind only Penix (4903) and Nix (4508).

You also posted something earlier about the team being reimagined to be a slowed down offense, and I respectfully disagree. My take was the upgrades to interior OL were specifically seeking improved pass protection for a rookie QB vs a finesse/smaller zone run blocking strength previously sought in recent years.

Nah, man. I'm talking about the coach talking about how to develop a young QB, throwing the ball in game-neutral situations 21.5% less than last year. Moving at a pace that is 5th slowest in the league, unlike last year, which saw Minnesota in the top ten, having twenty attempts, completing thirteen of them for an EPA of -0.45, throwing a pick-six, and just not letting the kid throw until he absolutely had to. I mean, if you think he's going to throw as much as Kirk Cousins, you're welcome to that opinion.

Look, the only way we're going to find out is to wait a bit, so let's wait. I don't care about any arguments now. They're moot.
 
and just not letting the kid throw until he absolutely had to
You keep saying this, as if having a QB playing his first NFL game on MNF on the road is not an obvious situational factor.

I didn’t personally agree with the decision to play McCarthy so sparingly in preseason & then consequently easing him in vs airing a few early throws vs Bears. It was being over cautious with a unit that hadn’t played in preseason, and not the beginning of KOC’s plan to become a plodding offense. Not with Jefferson/Addison/Thielen/Hock and even scheming deep passes to RB like we saw.

You’re right though, time will tell. What are you predicting for SNF at home? I’ll go with > 275 yards passing.
 
and just not letting the kid throw until he absolutely had to
You keep saying this, as if having a QB playing his first NFL game on MNF on the road is not an obvious situational factor.

I didn’t personally agree with the decision to play McCarthy so sparingly in preseason & then consequently easing him in vs airing a few early throws vs Bears. It was being over cautious with a unit that hadn’t played in preseason, and not the beginning of KOC’s plan to become a plodding offense. Not with Jefferson/Addison/Thielen/Hock and even scheming deep passes to RB like we saw.

You’re right though, time will tell. What are you predicting for SNF at home? I’ll go with > 275 yards passing.

I honestly don't know. I'm really looking at game-neutral situations and what they do. I don't think that absolutes or binaries or benchmarks tell you the story. I'll be looking at three main things: what is their pace of play and how does in compare to years past, are they running in situations where a run or pass isn't compelled but chosen (Pass Rate Over Expectation), and what their average depth of target is compared to years past. I think after a decade and a half here I'm comfortable enough being wrong where it's not something I'm going to ruin threads by telling you that I declare they're playing conservative with subjective evidence. It'll be pace of play, PROE, and aDOT, which I think I can access. I had their PROE from 2024 last night (but don't right now) and I was going to go back to Cousins and get an idea of where O'Connell likes it to be. I know your raw pass/run ratio was around 55.5 to 44.5 in 2024, but that doesn't account for game situation. So couple PROE with the other two stats and I think one gets a really good idea.

So like I said, I won't be in here or the MN thread giving lame subjective reasons why I'm right—I'll have numbers and I think that those numbers are actually really good ones.

But to put a number on total yards doesn't tell me about how they really want to approach things because they might very well be compelled to be in a shootout with Penix. The thing also to think about MN is that the defensive coordinator is sort of a unique guy who brings it from all angles and at all times. He wants to pressure, pressure, pressure and that can cause a very different style of game just because of the results from that.

It should be interesting. I do not think it will be as bad as 13-20 for 143 yards, but I'm not sure the kid is quite there yet. I think it might take a bit? I don't know. I'll be looking forward to checking it out.
 
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The pick-6 was a “tip your cap to the DB” play - he threw where he was supposed to with anticipation. Corner just made a hell of a play on that ball.
And Jefferson did not. Instead of breaking flat to the sideline he broke upfield. Not sure who was wrong but either the throw was wrong or Jettas was wrong. Not sure which.
During training camp Jefferson and Hockenson watched on the sidelines with injuries. McCarthy had Addison and Nailor to work with. Addison is suspended for the first three weeks.
If it looks like McCarthy was out of sinc with his receivers, it's probably because he hasn't had very much time with them yet.
 
Oh great four pages of a piss fight about 18th and 19th century philosophers in a thread about the NFC Offensive Player of the Week. Great job guys.
okay nfc player of the week is a joke but other than that I agree
What kind of FF forum is this where a couple of fellas can’t get into an intellectual debate about a 19th century economist?

(@rockaction started it!)
 
Yeah, I’m not at all going to take a 1-game sample size on the road on MNF as a trend.

Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
The offense they are running is the same offense they ran last season with Darnold. It will just be better because McCarthy is better than Darnold.

Of course that may take some time for the offense to fully gel and find their identity. Every team is different. But if you think the Vikings are going to avoid passing the ball because of McCarthy I think you are wrong and the evidence is KOCs tendencies.

I dont think you know this team well enough to make such a assumption.

Uh, I already accounted for that evidence. I explicitly stated it. I've been following along also. We will see week by week how they play it. RIght now, you're relying on the chicken/farmer fallacy. You have no idea what Kevin O'Connell will do with JJ McCarthy as his QB. It's a problem with inductive logic. It's generally not considered determinative. In fact, it's considered so weak that they won't allow general modus operandi claims in a criminal trial because they're considered potentially erroneous and prejudicial against the defendant.

It stems from the certainty and foundational aspects of that type of argument. It's a bit stickler-ish, but it's generally relied upon in hope and not in certainty.

It's the problem with induction and causation in general.

Problem of Induction​

The story of the chicken and the farmer is a well-known illustration of the philosophical problem of induction, a concept first explored by David Hume and later popularized by Bertrand Russell. The chicken, fed every morning by the farmer, observes this pattern repeatedly and uses inductive reasoning to predict that the farmer will always bring food. This belief is based on the assumption that the future will resemble the past, a fundamental principle of inductive logic. However, the chicken's prediction is catastrophically wrong when the farmer, on an unremarkable day, wrings its neck instead of feeding it. This outcome demonstrates the inherent flaw in inductive reasoning: no matter how many times a pattern is observed, it cannot guarantee that the pattern will continue, as a single counterexample can disprove a general rule.

The anecdote highlights that inductive reasoning, while practical and necessary for everyday life, cannot provide logical certainty. The chicken's conclusion that the farmer will always feed it is not logically justified, even though it is supported by extensive empirical evidence. This illustrates Hume's argument that the justification for induction is itself inductive, creating a circular argument that cannot be resolved logically. The chicken's fate serves as a metaphor for the limitations of relying on past experience to predict the future, a problem that extends beyond animal behavior to scientific theories, economic models, and human decision-making. The story underscores the need for a critical approach, such as Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability, where theories must be testable and potentially disprovable, rather than simply supported by confirming instances
Nonsense.

Yeah, I expected that. No skin off my nose. You threw the ball twenty times. Total. In a professional football game. Your RPOE was -17% and KOC is usually like +20 or something. It’s staggering.

Argument is over and it’s really time for those whom I have time for (not you).
Your statement contradicts itself.

Small sample size shouldn't lead to any conclushion at all. I think you know better. So why say such a thing at all?

There is/was no argument. Your position is baseless.

No the Vikings are not going to be a conservative run first team. Maybe if you followed the team and coach more you might realize that and how silly that is. Cowherdeske.
 
Yeah, I’m not at all going to take a 1-game sample size on the road on MNF as a trend.

Sure, you don't have to at all. I mean you're allowed to distinguish it from another game as is your wont. But I'd ask what evidence do you have that they're going play like they played when they had Kirk Cousins? Or Sam Darnold? I can't think of one thing besides faith and assertions to the contrary. Well, only time will tell. We will see.
The offense they are running is the same offense they ran last season with Darnold. It will just be better because McCarthy is better than Darnold.

Of course that may take some time for the offense to fully gel and find their identity. Every team is different. But if you think the Vikings are going to avoid passing the ball because of McCarthy I think you are wrong and the evidence is KOCs tendencies.

I dont think you know this team well enough to make such a assumption.

Uh, I already accounted for that evidence. I explicitly stated it. I've been following along also. We will see week by week how they play it. RIght now, you're relying on the chicken/farmer fallacy. You have no idea what Kevin O'Connell will do with JJ McCarthy as his QB. It's a problem with inductive logic. It's generally not considered determinative. In fact, it's considered so weak that they won't allow general modus operandi claims in a criminal trial because they're considered potentially erroneous and prejudicial against the defendant.

It stems from the certainty and foundational aspects of that type of argument. It's a bit stickler-ish, but it's generally relied upon in hope and not in certainty.

It's the problem with induction and causation in general.

Problem of Induction​

The story of the chicken and the farmer is a well-known illustration of the philosophical problem of induction, a concept first explored by David Hume and later popularized by Bertrand Russell. The chicken, fed every morning by the farmer, observes this pattern repeatedly and uses inductive reasoning to predict that the farmer will always bring food. This belief is based on the assumption that the future will resemble the past, a fundamental principle of inductive logic. However, the chicken's prediction is catastrophically wrong when the farmer, on an unremarkable day, wrings its neck instead of feeding it. This outcome demonstrates the inherent flaw in inductive reasoning: no matter how many times a pattern is observed, it cannot guarantee that the pattern will continue, as a single counterexample can disprove a general rule.

The anecdote highlights that inductive reasoning, while practical and necessary for everyday life, cannot provide logical certainty. The chicken's conclusion that the farmer will always feed it is not logically justified, even though it is supported by extensive empirical evidence. This illustrates Hume's argument that the justification for induction is itself inductive, creating a circular argument that cannot be resolved logically. The chicken's fate serves as a metaphor for the limitations of relying on past experience to predict the future, a problem that extends beyond animal behavior to scientific theories, economic models, and human decision-making. The story underscores the need for a critical approach, such as Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability, where theories must be testable and potentially disprovable, rather than simply supported by confirming instances
Nonsense.

Yeah, I expected that. No skin off my nose. You threw the ball twenty times. Total. In a professional football game. Your RPOE was -17% and KOC is usually like +20 or something. It’s staggering.

Argument is over and it’s really time for those whom I have time for (not you).
Your statement contradicts itself.

Small sample size shouldn't lead to any conclushion at all. I think you know better. So why say such a thing at all?

There is/was no argument. Your position is baseless.

No the Vikings are not going to be a conservative run first team. Maybe if you followed the team and coach more you might realize that and how silly that is. Cowherdeske.

Yeah, I'm really not having the argument anymore. We're going to see when the numbers roll in. There's a stat called Pass Rate Over Expectation, or PROE, which measures what a team does when the game script is neutral. Since O'Connell has taken over, MN has been passed more than it has run. It has done this at a rate +2.4 in 2002, +2.2 in 2003, and +3.9 in 2004. In raw numbers, they've thrown the ball 64% of the time in 2022 63%, of the time in 2023, and 57% of the time in 2024. That meant that if one were to rank order the Vikings with the rest of the league, you threw the ball at the 3rd highest rate in 2022, the 3rd highest rate again in 2023, and the 15th highest rate in 2024.

So forget the hifalutin stats with expectations and controls and constants, you guys just flat out throw with KOC.

What the with McCarthy, who has now been with the team a full year and a half and who you knew was starting when Sam Darnold left. You've had an entire summer and training camp to gameplan to throw, throw, throw—right?

I mean I'm so stupid, right? You're throwing no matter what! It's KOC!! And JJ from Chicago/Michigan!!!

Well, what did you guys do after all those months.

Well, your Pass Rate Over Expectation was . . . a -7.1, good for the 29th in the league. Yes, all other things constant, 28 other teams threw the ball more than Minnesota.

And what about raw numbers? Well, you didn't even attempt to throw the ball half of the time. In fact, you dropped back to pass 23 times and you ran the ball 26 times, meaning you threw the ball at a 47% clip, which is a full ten percent under your lowest year total. I mean you decreased your throwing by ten percent in comparison to 2024, by sixteen percent in comparison to 2023, and by seventeen percent in comparison to 2022.

In short, you guys sat on it, Potsie. In the most drastic of ways. The only team to have a turnaround like that was the Jets.

Feel free to quibble with the sample size. We will check back a month into the year. Until then, enjoy!
+
 
Well... I couldn't be more 180 on this chap.

From pre season diss to Week 1 add.

Seeing is believing. Grabbed him and Penix, now I get to decide between them on Sunday night.

Really, huh? He had a -.45 EPA and was 13-20 for 143 yards. Not for a half. For the game. He did have 2 passing TDs and a rushing TD to go with a pick-six. I don't know. His aDOT was around a 5.8, which was 27th in the league. When he threw, he didn't throw it that far, even.

He was 31st in attempts and dead last (32nd) in completions. He was 22nd in completion percentage over expected (better) and 23rd in average net yards/attempt. The thing that won MN the game was Mason's running, really.

I certainly think we all have the right to draw our own conclusions, but I think I'd like to see a little bit more from the young man. Just me.
 
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Well... I couldn't be more 180 on this chap.

From pre season diss to Week 1 add.

Seeing is believing. Grabbed him and Penix, now I get to decide between them on Sunday night.

Really, huh? He had a -.45 EPA and was 13-20 for 143 yards. Not for a half. For the game. He did have 2 passing TDs and a rushing TD to go with a pick-six. I don't know. His aDOT was around a 5.8, which is 27th in the league. When he threw, he didn't throw it that far, even. The thing that won MN the game was Mason's running, really.

I certainly think we all have the right to draw our own conclusions, but I think I'd like to see a little bit more from the young man. Just me.
I saw him make the throws he'll need to make in the KOC offense which I didn't know if he could make coming in so thats my reason for optimism

We've seen KOC spin gold with Darnold, I'll take the guy with an upgrade in mobility and now a true run balance to things.

I'm investing in the unknown of JJ versus the known mediocrity of in this specific case, Trevor Lawrence. But there's a few guys you could bucket there.

Discussion about JJM is limited to those of us who waited on QB though, if he's ever a top 10 QB it will be right about 10.

But considering I thought he'd totally flop, I'm intrigued. I may be likewise betting into fools gold since it was the bears he carved up
 
Well... I couldn't be more 180 on this chap.

From pre season diss to Week 1 add.

Seeing is believing. Grabbed him and Penix, now I get to decide between them on Sunday night.

Really, huh? He had a -.45 EPA and was 13-20 for 143 yards. Not for a half. For the game. He did have 2 passing TDs and a rushing TD to go with a pick-six. I don't know. His aDOT was around a 5.8, which is 27th in the league. When he threw, he didn't throw it that far, even. The thing that won MN the game was Mason's running, really.

I certainly think we all have the right to draw our own conclusions, but I think I'd like to see a little bit more from the young man. Just me.
I saw him make the throws he'll need to make in the KOC offense which I didn't know if he could make coming in so thats my reason for optimism

We've seen KOC spin gold with Darnold, I'll take the guy with an upgrade in mobility and now a true run balance to things.

I'm investing in the unknown of JJ versus the known mediocrity of in this specific case, Trevor Lawrence. But there's a few guys you could bucket there.

Discussion about JJM is limited to those of us who waited on QB though, if he's ever a top 10 QB it will be right about 10.

But considering I thought he'd totally flop, I'm intrigued. I may be likewise betting into fools gold since it was the bears he carved up

No, that's great. I was actually higher on him out of college than what I wound up seeing but giving him no time wouldn't be fair on my end. In addition to the stats I just gave, he had a good passer rating and success rate. He was bottom-third in aggressiveness and completion rate, but he tended to throw the ball close to the sticks (to a first down) when he did throw. Considering how that game started, it could have been a complete disaster. He fought through some embarrassment, sucked it up, and made all the throws and the decisions when he had to. This should be an interesting year. I wish him the best.
 

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