QB Kirk Cousins, ATL (6 Viewers)

[Brunell4MVP]

I am very curious to see how Cousins does with a coach other than Jay Gruden. Because it is easy to say Cousins hasn't proven he can win a game that matters, but it's also true to say Jay Gruden hasn't proven he can coach to win a game that matters.

This is a good post.

I don't disagree about Gruden.  I think he's a good coach, but his teams start the season ill-prepared.  According to the rumors, his practices leave a lot to be desired.  He's called poor plays in many important games.  Honestly I didn't watch much this year, but it didn't sound like much changed.

The QB / head coach symbiotic relationship is possibly the most important one in sports.  It matters less how good each one is than it does that they see things on the same page.  I think Gruden's post season presser shows they were not in agreement as much as the national media might think. 

Perhaps both Gruden and Cousins are moving on to better things for each if they can find the right QB/HC relationship.  Obviously Gruden thinks Smith fits his system well.  Now it's up to Cousins to find his fit, which really should be more important to him that the money. The difference in $130m vs $145m to be on a good team rather than a bad team.  Man, that's worth it to me.   It's plenty of money either way.  I'd want to have a better chance to win.

 

[Tool]

Cousins is a good qb but he’s going to be overpaid. His addition could have an adverse effect on who else could be kept on the roster.

 

[ghostguy123]

Cousins is a good qb but he’s going to be overpaid. His addition could have an adverse effect on who else could be kept on the roster.

When?  We are nowhere near the cap, and won't be for a few years even if we sign Cousins.

 

[Tool]

When?  We are nowhere near the cap, and won't be for a few years even if we sign Cousins.

Who's we?

 

[ghostguy123]

Who's we?

Oh sorry.  Was thinking i was in the Browns thread when I read that 

 

[fatness]

I am very curious to see how Cousins does with a coach other than Jay Gruden. Because it is easy to say Cousins hasn't proven he can win a game that matters, but it's also true to say Jay Gruden hasn't proven he can coach to win a game that matters.

This is a good post.

I don't disagree about Gruden.  I think he's a good coach, but his teams start the season ill-prepared.  According to the rumors, his practices leave a lot to be desired.  He's called poor plays in many important games.  Honestly I didn't watch much this year, but it didn't sound like much changed.

Not much changed this year.

It'll be interesting to see if Gruden "needed" Cousins, or if Cousins "needed" Gruden to be as (modestly) succesful as they were. They both may well be coming off the pinnacle of their careers. I think that's more likely than either of them improving. They were a perfect match. Gruden only cares about the passing offense. That's why their run game is usually so bad -- he doesn't care about it. That's why their defense is so bad -- he doesn't care about it. Cousins cares about going through progressions and passing for yardage and moving up and down the field. Not so much about finishing drives, finishing games, scoring TD's instead of FG's. Cousins ran the passing offense Gruden loved, quite well. 

Which one will we be talking about in 5 years? I'm guessing "neither".

 

[fatness]

Yeah I think hes gonna want what Jimmy G got, plus be in contention, so I think Cleveland is out. I think its Denver or Minnesota, whoever can afford it. 

If the money's close he'll go to the best team. If the money's not close he'll go for the dollars. I still think he'll be a Brown. Minnesota has like 3 QB's already, and I don't think Cousins wants to be compared to John Elway while he's working for John Elway who's breathing down his neck. Cousins is not a pressure guy.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Cousins cares about going through progressions and passing for yardage and moving up and down the field. Not so much about finishing drives, finishing games, scoring TD's instead of FG's.

He doesn't care about those things?

 

[BigJim®]

Minnesota has like 3 QB's already

:whoosh:

 

[DallasDMac]

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/35673/even-for-one-year-a-browns-kirk-cousins-pairing-doesnt-make-sense

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

If the money's close he'll go to the best team. If the money's not close he'll go for the dollars. I still think he'll be a Brown. Minnesota has like 3 QB's already, and I don't think Cousins wants to be compared to John Elway while he's working for John Elway who's breathing down his neck. Cousins is not a pressure guy.

Minnesotas only qb under contract is someone none of us heard of

 

[Arodin]

Minnesotas only qb under contract is someone none of us heard of

How do you know Kyle Sloter's mother isn't an active Shark Pool participant?

It's the internet...

 

[dhockster]

I would say the Browns could do pretty well in the AFC North. The Bengals are heading in the wrong direction. The Steelers are getting long in the tooth and could be losing Bell in a season. The Ravens are okay but Flacco is in a decline. As much as people think Sashi was messing up the Browns he flipped their roster and gave the Browns a ton to work with. Cap space galore and 5 picks in the first 2 rounds of a pretty good draft class. Sign Cousins, draft Barkley #1 and one of the best defensive players in the draft at # 4 Chubb or Fitzpatrick. Sashi invested in the offensive line signing maybe one of the best guards in the NFL away from the Bengals and signing Cousins opens all those doors. Look the contract now has to be over 28-30 million a year to get Cousins. If anything else because Cousins is very competitive. He will want and deserves more than Jimmy G.  I see this as a 3 dog race with the Browns, Jets, and Vikings in that order. The Browns are now as attractive as any of these landing spots outside of Minnesota. Vikings will need to do work to get it done though. 50 million in cap space is going to be tight considering signing their rookie class and filling any other needs. Plus think of being the guy that turns around the Browns. The downside is the owner is as bad as my team's owner. (Mike Brown) Okay maybe better than my team's owner. Least he tries.

Your argument that the salary cap will be a constraint for the Vikings is a bit of a stretch. Even if they signed Cousins to a deal that averaged $30 million, they would structure it so that the cap hit would be lower in the beginning of the deal and would grow as the overall salary cap will grow. They could probably have the cap hit be about $15 million in the first year if they felt they needed the space to do other things. $50 million in cap space is plenty to work with.

 

[msommer]

Your argument that the salary cap will be a constraint for the Vikings is a bit of a stretch. Even if they signed Cousins to a deal that averaged $30 million, they would structure it so that the cap hit would be lower in the beginning of the deal and would grow as the overall salary cap will grow. They could probably have the cap hit be about $15 million in the first year if they felt they needed the space to do other things. $50 million in cap space is plenty to work with.

It would make more sense to front load the deal - they just went to the NFCCG with Case Keenum so there might not be too many holes to fill in the rest of the roster right now.

Two, three years down the could be a different matter

 

[dhockster]

It would make more sense to front load the deal - they just went to the NFCCG with Case Keenum so there might not be too many holes to fill in the rest of the roster right now.

Two, three years down the could be a different matter

I don't disagree. His point though was that the Vikings might have a hard time signing Cousins because they had to sign other players and rookies. My point was they could structure the deal so they could do those other things. This is all assuming the Vikings want Cousins. If they do, and if Cousins really does want to play for a team with a chance to win now, I have a hard time seeing him pick the Browns or Jets over the Vikings.

 

[msommer]

I don't disagree. His point though was that the Vikings might have a hard time signing Cousins because they had to sign other players and rookies. My point was they could structure the deal so they could do those other things. This is all assuming the Vikings want Cousins. If they do, and if Cousins really does want to play for a team with a chance to win now, I have a hard time seeing him pick the Browns or Jets over the Vikings.

That I agree with. 

 

[Biabreakable]

It would make more sense to front load the deal - they just went to the NFCCG with Case Keenum so there might not be too many holes to fill in the rest of the roster right now.

Two, three years down the could be a different matter

This has been the Vikings usual method of doing business when giving players big contracts. They like the money up front because it frees up cap space in following seasons. It also reduces the dead cap hit on the players if the Vikings decide to cut ties before the contract expires.

Rick Spielman and the front office seem to prefer having players on one year type of contracts where they are not locked into a player due to guaranteed money in subsequent years of the contract.

Cousins may be $100 guaranteed. I would expect the Vikings to try to push as much of that money into the 1st year of the contract as possible.

The Vikings actually have about $60 million without making any cuts to players. If they cut Jarius Wright for example it would free up another $4 million or so in cap space. There are other moves they can make that wouldn't affect the teams starting lineup much but could free up cap space.

I don't really see money being an issue here.

I do think the Jets have a decent shot of signing Cousins too though. I like their chances of signing him a bit more than the Browns.

I am pretty sure the Vikings are interested in Cousins and will make a run at him. Cleveland or the Jets can make this difficult though by offering more money up front in the deal to Cousins than the Vikings want to. There are some limits to how much the Vikings can afford to front load the deal.

 

[massraider]

VIkes have plenty of cap space to sign anyone with 50 mill in cap space.

They do have a ton of free agents this year and next, a lot are role players and backups, but even those roles take up space.  32 free agents this year and next, by my count.  

No other big ticket items this year-Tom Johnson probably the top one-but next year Trae Waynes, Stefon Diggs, Anthony Barr, Eric Kendricks.  That's at least three guys that will probably get 10+ per year.   

 

[-OZ-]

...Many people think that could mean a five-year, $150 million contract with a good chunk of that guaranteed. One league source speculated the Jets could front-load the contract and offer Cousins $60 million guaranteed in the first year of the contract. That would still leave them with about $30 million in cap space this year and then allow them to build around Cousins with lower cap figures in the remaining years of the contract.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/19/60m-in-1st-year-jets-set-to-creatively-pounce-on-kirk-cousins/amp/

 

[Village Idiot]

Ok so the math is: Take a team that is 1-31 in the last 2 seasons and add a QB that has a sub .500 record as a starter and BOOM! 10 win team. Got it. 

Yes because QB is the only addition that will be made through free agency and the draft. /sarcasm.

But, I agree, 10 wins is at least a couple of bridges too far.

I'd settle for 5 wins and some signs of hope after the last 2 years. 

 

[dhockster]

I think there are really 3 main factors in where any free agent goes, and depending on where that individual ranks them, that will determine where he goes. The 3 are:

1. Money
   
2. Playing for a contender
   
3. Environment/geographic location of the team
   

Cousins has said (don't know if its true) that his main concern is playing for a contender. That would probably move the Vikings, Jaguars, and Broncos to the top of his list. While money is always important, because Cousins has made $50 million over the last two seasons, I don't think he will need to take the highest offer to be happy. Whoever he signs with will probably guarantee him $90 million over 3 years. So the Jets and Browns can probably offer him the most money, but that may not help them. Finally, since Cousins is Northern Midwest guy, I don't really see him being enamored with playing in the big city (i.e. New York). While playing in New York gives you tons of exposure and other financial opportunities, it also comes with a ton of pressure and expectations. Cousins doesn't necessarily seem like the type of guy who wants to deal with that.

Without any other information, the Vikings seem like the logical choice for Cousins. Now if Minnesota isn't interested, Jacksonville would probably be the safest next pick in terms of contenders, but Bortles wrist may prevent them from cutting him which would make it problematic for Jacksonville to sign him from a cap perspective. The Broncos defense will probably be good for at least one more year, so they could be an option, but they don't have an overabundance of cap space. I also don't know if Vance Joseph is a selling point yet. I think that if the Vikings and Jags aren't interested, than the Jets become a real possibility

 

[Sebowski]

I don't get the "NY media" "Big City environment" talk about the jets and giants. He could play 10 years for the Jets and never step foot inside the New York state. Quiet mansion in Jersey suburbs down? 

Oh ####. I guess he would have to go to New York once a year to play the Bills. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I don't really see him being enamored with playing in the big city (i.e. New York).

He would not be playing in a big city and could live in as rural a place as he desires.

 

[Chadstroma]

Amazing how an above average QB can demand so much attention and money. The QB starved teams that go after him are going to push the market even higher and one team is going to spend way too much on him. But then they will have a QB.

 

[Kiddnets]

Amazing how an above average QB can demand so much attention and money. The QB starved teams that go after him are going to push the market even higher and one team is going to spend way too much on him. But then they will have a QB.

As a Jet fan who has watched bottom 5 QBs for the last 15 yrs I would be elated to have a QB ranked top 15 in the league....at least it gives you a chance if you build around him.  

 

[dhockster]

He would not be playing in a big city and could live in as rural a place as he desires.

Let me put it another way. He may not want to play under big city media coverage and pressure. I think it takes a special person to thrive in and want to be in that environment. As the big money QB for a New York football team he would be under constant scrutiny, and the press there is willing to go negative at a moment's notice. This is reduced significantly in smaller market areas.

 

[BigJim®]

Amazing how an above average QB can demand so much attention and money. The QB starved teams that go after him are going to push the market even higher and one team is going to spend way too much on him. But then they will have a QB.

Seems like it is just a reality of the speed at which cap expands, combined with the reality that the top 2-3 players at each position only come up for contracting every 4-5 years. Performance based pay just can't keep up. I think Cousins deserves more credit than being considered above average; his production has him top 5 over the past 2 seasons. But yeah, it's hard to know what top players deserve when the high bar is being reset by players who don't merit it on performance grounds (e.g. Garopollo). You really can't start with a non-performance based high bar and then switch over to performance logic (well if so and so gets X, we performed better). It's either performance based or timing based. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Let me put it another way. He may not want to play under big city media coverage and pressure. I think it takes a special person to thrive in and want to be in that environment. As the big money QB for a New York football team he would be under constant scrutiny, and the press there is willing to go negative at a moment's notice. This is reduced significantly in smaller market areas.

Yeah, maybe - Washington DC is a pretty big media city as well though. You surely could be right but I don't get that impression from Cousins.

 

[msommer]

I think there are really 3 main factors in where any free agent goes, and depending on where that individual ranks them, that will determine where he goes. The 3 are:

1. Money
   
2. Playing for a contender
   
3. Environment/geographic location of the team
   

Cousins has said (don't know if its true) that his main concern is playing for a contender. That would probably move the Vikings, Jaguars, and Broncos to the top of his list. While money is always important, because Cousins has made $50 million over the last two seasons, I don't think he will need to take the highest offer to be happy. Whoever he signs with will probably guarantee him $90 million over 3 years. So the Jets and Browns can probably offer him the most money, but that may not help them. Finally, since Cousins is Northern Midwest guy, I don't really see him being enamored with playing in the big city (i.e. New York). While playing in New York gives you tons of exposure and other financial opportunities, it also comes with a ton of pressure and expectations. Cousins doesn't necessarily seem like the type of guy who wants to deal with that.

Without any other information, the Vikings seem like the logical choice for Cousins. Now if Minnesota isn't interested, Jacksonville would probably be the safest next pick in terms of contenders, but Bortles wrist may prevent them from cutting him which would make it problematic for Jacksonville to sign him from a cap perspective. The Broncos defense will probably be good for at least one more year, so they could be an option, but they don't have an overabundance of cap space. I also don't know if Vance Joseph is a selling point yet. I think that if the Vikings and Jags aren't interested, than the Jets become a real possibility

43 and change, actually, but still significant moolah

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Let me put it another way. He may not want to play under big city media coverage and pressure. I think it takes a special person to thrive in and want to be in that environment. As the big money QB for a New York football team he would be under constant scrutiny, and the press there is willing to go negative at a moment's notice. This is reduced significantly in smaller market areas.

DC may not be a top 5 population or mass media market.  But from a media scrutiny of the football team and negative press base, it's right up there with NYC and Philly.  DC media loves drumming up Redskins rumors far more they they love across the aisle political scandals.  Fans have wearied out on it.  But the press certainly has not. 

I think Kirk has been under about as much media (not game) scrutiny as any QB (replacing RG3, contract status, trade rumors for 3 years, in game decisions, goal line decisions, injured players, etc).  Jalen Hurd may have been under more, but I think his HC took a lot of the media pressure off.  Gruden certainly didn't do that for Cousins.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Amazing how an above average QB can demand so much attention and money. The QB starved teams that go after him are going to push the market even higher and one team is going to spend way too much on him. But then they will have a QB.

Cousins is caught in a supply/demand typhoon that will just continue to spiral out of control. That is why it is such a HUGE advantage to hit on a QB at draft time. 

 

[dhockster]

DC may not be a top 5 population or mass media market.  But from a media scrutiny of the football team and negative press base, it's right up there with NYC and Philly.  DC media loves drumming up Redskins rumors far more they they love across the aisle political scandals.  Fans have wearied out on it.  But the press certainly has not. 

I think Kirk has been under about as much media (not game) scrutiny as any QB (replacing RG3, contract status, trade rumors for 3 years, in game decisions, goal line decisions, injured players, etc).  Jalen Hurd may have been under more, but I think his HC took a lot of the media pressure off.  Gruden certainly didn't do that for Cousins.

Perhaps he has. Do you think he seems like the type of guy who thrives on that or wants it? I honestly don't know since I haven't followed his interactions with the Washington Press. While I agree that Philly and Washington may be similar to NYC in terms of negativity and scrutiny, I just think there is a bigness to the NY coverage that Philly and Washington don't have.

 

[ghostguy123]

Yes because QB is the only addition that will be made through free agency and the draft. /sarcasm.

But, I agree, 10 wins is at least a couple of bridges too far.

I'd settle for 5 wins and some signs of hope after the last 2 years. 

Even though the Browns were 0-16 last year, with even remotely halfway competent QB play they would have won a few games, probably 3 or 4.  

I think if you add a GOOD QB to that equation, along with a couple top 4 talent positional players, along with whatever you can get with an additional 50 million in cap, 10 wins would not be a crazy feet at all.  It PROBABLY wouldnt happen this year, but would not shock me one bit.

Dont under estimate adding a competent offensive coordinator also, which will mitigate a lot of the Hue Jackson suck factor.

 

[dhockster]

Even though the Browns were 0-16 last year, with even remotely halfway competent QB play they would have won a few games, probably 3 or 4.  

I think if you add a GOOD QB to that equation, along with a couple top 4 talent positional players, along with whatever you can get with an additional 50 million in cap, 10 wins would not be a crazy feet at all.  It PROBABLY wouldnt happen this year, but would not shock me one bit.

Dont under estimate adding a competent offensive coordinator also, which will could mitigate a lot of the Hue Jackson suck factor.

FYP. We don't have a scale yet on how big the Jackson suck factor is.

 

[ghostguy123]

FYP. We don't have a scale yet on how big the Jackson suck factor is.

Anyone else calling plays is an improvement.

 

[DallasDMac]

...Many people think that could mean a five-year, $150 million contract with a good chunk of that guaranteed. One league source speculated the Jets could front-load the contract and offer Cousins $60 million guaranteed in the first year of the contract.

That is simply insane.

 

[King of the Jungle]

That is simply insane.

Imagine what good QBs are going to want in upcoming years....

 

[Sebowski]

Cousins is caught in a supply/demand typhoon that will just continue to spiral out of control....

Has he though? Count the teams that need a QB and the QBs available as FAs and rookies. I think you'll be surprised. 

 

[travdogg]

Even though the Browns were 0-16 last year, with even remotely halfway competent QB play they would have won a few games, probably 3 or 4.  

I think if you add a GOOD QB to that equation, along with a couple top 4 talent positional players, along with whatever you can get with an additional 50 million in cap, 10 wins would not be a crazy feet at all.  It PROBABLY wouldnt happen this year, but would not shock me one bit.

Dont under estimate adding a competent offensive coordinator also, which will mitigate a lot of the Hue Jackson suck factor.

I'm not sure Hue Jackson could get to 10 wins with any team in the NFL. He's the worst coach I've ever seen in almost 30 years of watching football. 

 

[ghostguy123]

I'm not sure Hue Jackson could get to 10 wins with any team in the NFL. He's the worst coach I've ever seen in almost 30 years of watching football. 

Yeah, this is kinda true.

I do think the addition of an OC will be huge for Hue, but the problem is even a huge improvement might just mean he is terrible rather than the worst ever.

 

[travdogg]

Yeah, this is kinda true.

I do think the addition of an OC will be huge for Hue, but the problem is even a huge improvement might just mean he is terrible rather than the worst ever.

I suppose it could help, but its also possible Haley isn't any good, and not only does he not help the Browns, but his departure helps the Steelers. I mean, say what you want about Roethlisberger, but he sure seems excited that Haley is gone.

 

[-OZ-]

Yeah, this is kinda true.

I do think the addition of an OC will be huge for Hue, but the problem is even a huge improvement might just mean he is terrible rather than the worst ever.

I seen to recall someone calling Hue a "plus coach" last year. Not you probably, I don't recall who...

ETA: https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/756656-kizer-vs-watson/#comment-20191027 

There it is. 

I really don't mean to insult or trash @FF Ninja here, but it's funny how opinions can change quick.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

That is simply insane.

I have serious doubts this is going to happen. 

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Amazing how an above average QB can demand so much attention and money. The QB starved teams that go after him are going to push the market even higher and one team is going to spend way too much on him. But then they will have a QB.

Redskins fault

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Yeah, this is kinda true.

I do think the addition of an OC will be huge for Hue, but the problem is even a huge improvement might just mean he is terrible rather than the worst ever.

Why on earth would Dorsey keep him? these hire new GM but keep coaches moves is just odd.

 

[travdogg]

Redskins fault

I get the feeling we'll look back a couple years from now, and agree the Redskins made the right call not locking Cousins up. Maybe not the right call on a lot of other things, but the right call on Cousins.

 

[Faust]

Why Kirk Cousins to the Vikings Makes the Most Sense (and Why the Browns Should Steer Clear)

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Perhaps he has. Do you think he seems like the type of guy who thrives on that or wants it? I honestly don't know since I haven't followed his interactions with the Washington Press. While I agree that Philly and Washington may be similar to NYC in terms of negativity and scrutiny, I just think there is a bigness to the NY coverage that Philly and Washington don't have.

My sense (form the outside looking in) -  He thrives on being the underdog/victim.  I don't think he has self-doubt, but I think others doubting him drives him to be his best.  So yes, he does thrive on the media scrutiny and NYC wouldn't change that.  I think a lot of successful people thrive because they want to prove others wrong, so it's a good character trait.

Now what he never took in DC is the ability to thrive in situations that make the team a winner.   He shows flashes, but not enough of them.  Some of that was the lack of talent around him at least this year.  Some was injuries to his teammates.  But some is obviously Kirk delivering when it matters.  He needs to take that next step if he's going to justify the contract he'll get.

 

[Faust]

If Kirk Cousins wants to win, some teams just don't make sense

 

[Faust]

How the Jets really feel about signing QB Kirk Cousins