Well you know I don't agree and feel like Daniels is very much an MVP candidate who changed the entire culture of a franchise. So not premature at all.
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QB Lamar Jackson, BAL (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter massraider
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Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
Did you read my post?
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
RGIII shined just as bright as any of them, but how long did it last? How about we let Daniels play a little while before we crown him?
I also think Daniels is way ahead of lamar when lamar was at this point in his career. Daniels could easily mature to be way better than Lamar
Daniels is doing historic things, the efficiency of that offense is like nothing I've seen and with Terry Mclaurin and bunch of nothing. I'm going to go ahead and crown him.
If we are getting into lifetime achievment awards there are a whole lot of other QB's who have done more then Lamar so seems like this is having it both ways.
I stopped after you asked if we'd ever see another Lamar when I'm already looking at one.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
Of course you did. It took you longer to crop my post out of context than it would have to actually read what I wrote.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
RGIII did historic things, for the same team ironically. He's an analyst now. Let's see what Daniels can do over the period of a season or two, mmmmmmmmK?
We're not talking strictly about athletic talent, we're talking about the ability to have prolonged success in the NFL as a quarterback like Lamar has been doing. He's beating the odds. Can Daniels? I guess we'll see. My hopes aren't high considering his build and the hits he takes, but I guess we'll see.
BINGBING
Footballguy
Daniels looks amazing and i'm a big fan of him.
He's played 9 games. GTFO with saying he's on par with a guy that is possibly heading towards his 3rd MVP in 7 years.
Just so you know Lamar had won a NFL MVP and played 3 NFL seasons at the age that Jayden Daniels currently is…
Tau837
Footballguy
This statement I quoted seems both true, and a bit of an incomplete statement. Of course there are many QBs who have done more than Jackson from a lifetime achievement perspective... he is 27 and could have 10 more seasons to play, give or take.
It seems a lot more reasonable to project forward for Jackson, in his 7th season, than for Daniels, 9 games into his rookie season. Daniels may end up having a career as good or better than Jackson, but any such projection is based off a small sample, whereas we have a large sample for Jackson. And what Jackson has done to date makes it easy to see the potential for him to have an all time top 10 QB career.
Jackson ideally needs to have more postseason success. This is the only real valid line of criticism for his career to date. Fortunately for him, he still has plenty of time left for that, and he plays for a high quality organization with a strong front office and strong head coach. That makes it likely that he will consistently be put in position for postseason success. IMO it is likely he will have a postseason breakthrough at some point and get that monkey off his back.
Entering this season, only 6 players in NFL history had more career AP MVP votes than Jackson: Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, Unitas, Favre, and Jim Brown. As of today, it appears that Jackson has a good chance to join that group this season as the only players ever to win 3 MVPs. If he does, he will likely move up to #4 in career AP MVP votes, behind only Peyton, Brady, and Rodgers.
Entering this season, Jackson was 1 of only 24 QBs in NFL history to have had 2 or more 1st team All Pro selections. If Jackson earns a 3rd selection this season, he will be the 13th QB in NFL history to achieve that.
Jackson hasn't played enough games to rank high in accumulated passing statistics, but he ranks high in some career rate statistics: #3 in passer rating, #7 in TD percentage, #11 in interception percentage, #14 in YPA, #19 in completion percentage.
He is currently 313 rushing yards behind Michael Vick; once he passes him, he will be the all time leader at QB. Meanwhile, he is #3 in career average YPC. He also has a slew of NFL records for QB rushing.
Putting all that together, I don't think there will be a "whole lot of other QBs" who will have done more than Jackson by the time his career is complete, at least assuming he doesn't suffer a career ending injury at some point and/or decide to walk away from the game like Andrew Luck.
That's all great but I can make a bunch of the same arguments about Daniels and all anyone can do is cite the 9 games. That's it. That's all anyone has and if you all want to project Lamar's future I will as well with Daniels, and feel very confident about it.
Tau837
Footballguy
Daniels has not done any of the things I posted about Jackson, so you definitely "cannot make a bunch of the same arguments about Daniels." I don't think you can reasonably make a single one of the same arguments in my post about Daniels. And, as another poster pointed out, Daniels got a much later start than Jackson, since we're talking about "lifetime achievement" here. I'm not knocking Daniels in any way, my post is more about Jackson, and you seem really dismissive of Jackson's accomplishments here.
I can list of a few things Daniels has done that Jackson has not at this point at a similar juncture in their careers.
You and others are missing the point anyway. Someone said we'll never see another Lamar again and I'm simply making the point we are seeing one right now. I stand firmly on that and otherwise done here.
Tau837
Footballguy
I agree that Daniels through 9 games looks as good or better than Jackson in some ways. I agree that he could be "another Lamar." Operative words being "could be." Long way to go to determine if that is true.
I didn't miss the point, I responded to something you wrote that I thought was surprising enough to respond to. No offense intended.
I'm just confused because the discussion seems to be going in different directions and feel like the "only 9 games" has become the referendum.
Maybe I should have asked what does it even mean to someone when they asks "if we'll never see another Lamar".
Because if we are talking about winning playoffs and Super Bowl we got a current player in Mahomes who is just a few years younger who is blowing him away so surely that can't be the why someone would wonder if we ever see another Lamar?
If we are talking about "what I think the player will do in his career" and project the things Lamar is going to do I fail to see how someone can utilize that but then tell me I Daniels has only played 9 games so I can't.
Then it turned to an age comp vs where Lamar was as a rookie vs the age Daniels is right now which I don't even know the point of what that was especially in light of the fact that Daniels compares very favorably or better then Lamar on a pure per pass stastical outlook then Lamar did every season of his career except this one, his age 27 season. And past stats I'd still argue Daniels right now as a rookie has better ball placement then Lamar has ever had, that's not a knock on Lamar either nor have I taken any shots on Lamar as you suggested.
Are we talking about top of the echelon dual threat QB's who can do things on a football field that most can't as a runner and passer? I am. That's what I'm talking about and again the main refute to that is Daniels has only played 9 games. of course I'm not saying the entirety of his career matches Lamar or suggested anything of the sort. That's sillly. I am saying he's shown enough to me in these 9 games, that I feel extremely confident saying unless he suffers some freaky injuries he's going to do Lamar type of things. Not an exact one off, will do some things better, some things not as well but all in all very similar.
No offense taken and no offense should be said when I said I'm done here as it just seems to be we are debating different criteria or moving targets and/or all anyone wants to do is throw out 9 games or some award voted on by sportwriters and say I'm crazy or as someone said to GTFO. That's when I'm done. I stand on what I said. Daniels is doing historic things for a rookie QB and I think he's only going to get better with a lot more on the field help.
Tau837
Footballguy
Sorry, meno. I simply replied to your lifetime achievement statement about Jackson, which struck me. I wasn't really in the conversation about "another Lamar." Didn't mean to confuse the conversation.
Age is different than experience. JD has 3 months of experience and looks well beyond what lamar did in his first 3 years. Lamar was a rb faking as a QB. JD is a QB first...
titusbramble
Footballguy
I want to see the alternative universe where the Commies coaching staff don't effectively end RG3's career
nittanylion
Footballguy
With all respect to this being the Lamar Jackson Thread...
...Robert Griffin wasn't, and would never have been, in the same caliber as either Jayden Daniels or Lamar Jackson.
Lamar's development into an elite-level multi-dimensional NFL QB has been great to see, but he had the QB tools needed to get to where he is today.
Jayden Daniels is an athletic QB. Yes, an athlete, but every bit as much a QB, and barring catastrophe, he certainly has an arc that could mirror that of Lamar.
RG3 was, and always would have been, an athlete playing the QB position. It was already evident from what he put on film while playing at Baylor.
The Shanahan's did not end RG3's career. The crap turf at FedEx played a big part in that. RG3's insistence that he was more than an athlete playing QB did the rest. MIke and Kyle Shanahan saw RG3 for what he was. Daniel Snyder drafted RG3, not the Shanahan's. That's why Mike drafted Cousins later in the same draft.
The Shanahan's crafted a unique scheme that allowed RG3 to have some success in the NFL, while he was injury-free. After his career was over, and properly vetted, it was fully exposed that he lacked many of the skills necessary to be among the positions upper tier, much less elite. Without that scheme, if he'd been forced to be a conventional NFL QB (which is what he imagined himself to be, and desired to be), I don't think there would have been much to write home about.
RG3 might have had a reasonably successful NFL career had he been able to honestly look in the mirror and accept the reality of what he was (and was not) capable of at the NFL level, and allowed the Shanahan's to continue to chart a course for him, but he (and his Dad, among others) put a wrench in the works. His fall was in the works, the injury just accelerated what, IMHO, was an inevitable outcome.
Jayden Daniels has the skills and opportunity to be so much more than that, if nothing gets in the way.
...now back to your regularly scheduled program.
...Robert Griffin wasn't, and would never have been, in the same caliber as either Jayden Daniels or Lamar Jackson.
Lamar's development into an elite-level multi-dimensional NFL QB has been great to see, but he had the QB tools needed to get to where he is today.
Jayden Daniels is an athletic QB. Yes, an athlete, but every bit as much a QB, and barring catastrophe, he certainly has an arc that could mirror that of Lamar.
RG3 was, and always would have been, an athlete playing the QB position. It was already evident from what he put on film while playing at Baylor.
The Shanahan's did not end RG3's career. The crap turf at FedEx played a big part in that. RG3's insistence that he was more than an athlete playing QB did the rest. MIke and Kyle Shanahan saw RG3 for what he was. Daniel Snyder drafted RG3, not the Shanahan's. That's why Mike drafted Cousins later in the same draft.
The Shanahan's crafted a unique scheme that allowed RG3 to have some success in the NFL, while he was injury-free. After his career was over, and properly vetted, it was fully exposed that he lacked many of the skills necessary to be among the positions upper tier, much less elite. Without that scheme, if he'd been forced to be a conventional NFL QB (which is what he imagined himself to be, and desired to be), I don't think there would have been much to write home about.
RG3 might have had a reasonably successful NFL career had he been able to honestly look in the mirror and accept the reality of what he was (and was not) capable of at the NFL level, and allowed the Shanahan's to continue to chart a course for him, but he (and his Dad, among others) put a wrench in the works. His fall was in the works, the injury just accelerated what, IMHO, was an inevitable outcome.
Jayden Daniels has the skills and opportunity to be so much more than that, if nothing gets in the way.
...now back to your regularly scheduled program.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
Just stop. You must be mis-remembering RGIII's rookie year and also Lamar's early years as a passer. We'll never know what RGIII could have been because that staff led the lamb to slaughter in that playoff game. His knee was compromised before that game even began.
massraider
Footballguy
Lamar's 2nd year in the NFL he won MVP and threw 36 TD vs 9 INT. In 15 games.
He was a year younger than Daniels is now. Ummmmmm
Oh, he also ran for 1000 yards.
I assume rushing yards count?
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Dan Snyder ruined RGIII by making him his buddy. Don't get me wrong - Griffin played right into it and was his own worst enemy - but it was the toxic threesome of Snyder/Shanahan/Griffin that screwed the pooch. I think RGIII could have been a very good QB had someone like Andy Reid gotten ahold of him.
For the record- it was only 6 picks in 2019.
I’m genuinely curious how you reconcile making a post saying Lamar was a rb playing qb his first 3 years when he turned in the season that he did in his second year. 113.3 passer rating is the 12th best rated season all time. How do you make sense of that reality? Were you just not aware of it when you made that post?
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
To be fair Lamar was a one read QB that had no idea how to read a defense pre or post snap at that point, much like RGIII his rookie year. If RGIII isn't burnt to the ground, maybe he evolves as well? Either way, QB rating doesn't always tell the entire story. Lamar is 10x the QB he was his 2nd year in the NFL.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
This is pretty bad take, Lamar was never a one read QB. Lamar's issues as a passer were his poor fundamentals that led to wildly inconsistent accuracy. Reading a defense hasn't been the issue for him. He's actually at an elite level of processing defenses. (source Tom Brady). His leap as a passer is actually more similar to Josh Allen where he improved throwing mechanics and fundamentals. Allen had a much bigger leap and is a much better passer but its a similar situation.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
It would have been better if you just said you didn’t watch much of Lamar early on.
He was most certainly a one read or off script passer. He’s evolved. He’s great now. He wasn’t then. Your take is revisionist history.
Got it so all the NFL defensive coaches couldn’t figure out how to stop this one read throwing rb playing qb as he put up one of the best rated passing seasons of all time and won a unanimous MVP. Makes sense! I’ve watched every snap Lamar Jackson has ever taken in the NFL. He was raw by NFL standards as a passer as a 21 YO rookie but would flash the ability to make high level throws. In 2019 he was excellent. Arguing he wasn’t is akin to saying you’re right and everyone else is wrong. I suppose that’s possible but I don’t find it particularly likely.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
Who is everyone else? The Ravens? Why didn't they pay him before, during or after the 2022 season? Why was he given the non-exclusive franchise tag?
You're making it more clear with each post that you didn't watch the team back then or you're mis-remembering what you saw and you're a victim of revisionist history. Remember the backfields with the likes of Ingram, Gus Edwards, and Dobbins his first couple years? Remember all the read option throws to the TE? Remember all the trickery behind the LoS to fool defenses? Remember all the discussion about the color of the Ravens uniforms to mask which player was actually getting the ball or where it was? Saying Lamar wasn't a one read QB is laughable. He's great right now, a true Steven Young/Randall Cunningham type dual threat, but back then, he was limited - for a variety of reasons.
Lamar threw for over 3,000 yards once in his first five years as a Raven, the year he also rushed for 1200 yards and won his first MVP.
Lamar didn't help produce a 1,000 yard receiver until year 4, a TE.
Lamar started to evolve in year 4 but injury derailed what could have been.
Lamar seemed to regress in year 5 and got injured again. Ugly year that had people talking about whether or not the Ravens might move on. The reluctance to give him a long term contract at the time is evidence they weren't even sure what they had.
Lamar improved leaps and bounds as a passer in year 6, hitting a personal high water marks and winning another MVP, this time much less because of his legs.
Lamar, in year 7, looks like a different player and I'm sure he'll be rewarded for it. Prior to this year, he's been an athlete playing QB. Now he just looks like a supremely athletic human that can also play QB.
FWIW, you can be an excellent player/QB, be efficient, and still be a one read passer. That's what he was in 2019. That's what RGIII was his rookie season. I'm sorry, them's the facts.
Lamar
Lol wow. The discussion of the uniform color? I think you’re referring to an announcer (I think the Bengals) saying Lamar’s skin color made it easier to hide the ball for him. There was no real discussion and it wasn’t about uniforms.
Lamar threw from the RPO a total of 77 times for a passer rating of 109.4. He threw from non RPO 324 times for a passer rating of 114.2. Your remembrance of his usage from the RPO and some massive bump in effectiveness is wrong. His rating when in the pocket >2.5 secs was 107.7 and <2.5 secs was 119 on close to the same attempts. He was excellent both inside and outside the pocket. The Ravens averaged the 12th most YPA in 2019 so I highly doubt they were doing a bunch of behind the LOS trickery. These are facts. You saying “it seems” and “it looks like” are not facts. I can’t easily find his ADOT and frankly you’re not worth the time.
The Ravens had a tricky negotiation with Lamar given his lack of an agent. The Ravens were never letting him walk. They put themselves in a position to match any offer he signed with another team allowing other teams to do their negotiating for them. When I said “everyone else” I’m referring to the actual defensive coordinators who you seem to think couldn’t identify (yet you could) and take away Lamar’s one read and also all the people who have given it a shot formulating passer ratings and QBR because you seem to think your perception and eye test are better than those measurements. Sure the rating systems will never be perfect but they are a whole lot better than one guys eye test and made up perceptions from 5 years ago.
Lamar has taken steps forward as a passer no doubt. But he was still excellent in 2019. Please stop acting like I don’t watch Ravens games. I am a Ravens fan. I watch every game. Often times multiple times. You very clearly aren’t a Ravens fan. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a voice but it certainly means your voice shouldn’t be acting like you’ve seen more of Lamar than I have.
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Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
You have all the stats. What percentage of drop backs did he throw to his 2nd read? 3rd read? Outlet? How many of his completions were outside of the play design? How do these statistics compare to the other top QBs in the league then? Curious...
Tau837
Footballguy
Don’t have those stats. Would love to see them also.
Over 2.5 seconds: 11/16, 158 yards, TD
Gjallarhorn
Footballguy
Best player in the NFL, and it is really not even close.
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
He can help himself and remove any doubt with a championship this year. He really has no more excuses with this offensive cast.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Josh Allen is, but I think it's Jackson by a nose hair right now.
Gjallarhorn
Footballguy
That defense is abhorrent.
WaltonGoggins
Footballguy
Can he please show up and dominate vs Steelers this weekend I need big game from him.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
Dude padded his stats against one of the worst (if not the actual worst) team in the NFL.
He’s no Josh Allen.
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Gjallarhorn
Footballguy
They are both very, very good and the respective fanbases should be counting their lucky stars that they have them.
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