QB Lamar Jackson, BAL (4 Viewers)

[travdogg]

It is a flashing sign of who is a good coach and who isn't and the NFL is littered with those that won't change.

It’s a very good point. Look at how CHI used Fields before taking the shackles off his legs - once he started running, the passing game also started clicking (up until the Mooney injury).

So in a sense, cap tip to Baltimore for relying on LJax strengths and designing an offense to suit them.

I’d still like to see him throw more - he does have a pretty decent arm.

Fields is stronger and built more like Allen and even he was banged up from running at the end of the year. The shelf life for QBs that run so much is shorter in the NFL. Mahomes is probably the perfect mix, he can run when needed but is a pass first.

A reminder that Fields, Jackson, and Hurts all got injured being sacked, not from running.

Running QBs shelf life is shorter, because athleticism tends to drop off faster than arm talent or decision making.

I would argue Jackson is the best QB of the trio.

 

[Chaka]

He came from a Pro-Style offense.
-------------------------------------------------
Lamar Jackson
@Lj_era8
Thank youView attachment 3405
-----------------
Emory Hunt
@FBallGameplan
Lemme just get this out here before folks start wrongly discussing the #Ravens search for a new OC…
Lamar Jackson ran a ‘pro style’ offense in college at Louisville under Bobby Petrino

Where he completed 57% of his passes and had more rushing attempts than completions.

If people want to argue he can be a decent passing QB fine, but those guys don't get record setting contracts. What makes him so dangerous is his running, and no team is going to pay him a ton of money to drop back and throw it 40 times per game.

Why does it have to be an either or situation?

Teams will pay him for the next level talent he has always demonstrated.

 

[IHEARTFF]

If Lamar gets a big contract and stays, the musical chairs gets tighter for the qb-less teams

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It is a flashing sign of who is a good coach and who isn't and the NFL is littered with those that won't change.

It’s a very good point. Look at how CHI used Fields before taking the shackles off his legs - once he started running, the passing game also started clicking (up until the Mooney injury).

So in a sense, cap tip to Baltimore for relying on LJax strengths and designing an offense to suit them.

I’d still like to see him throw more - he does have a pretty decent arm.

Fields is stronger and built more like Allen and even he was banged up from running at the end of the year. The shelf life for QBs that run so much is shorter in the NFL. Mahomes is probably the perfect mix, he can run when needed but is a pass first.

A reminder that Fields, Jackson, and Hurts all got injured being sacked, not from running.

Running QBs shelf life is shorter, because athleticism tends to drop off faster than arm talent or decision making.

I would argue Jackson is the best QB of the trio.

Actually Fields was scrambling. I watched the play - he hurt his hip rolling out and taking off to run.

It happens that he was hit behind the line, but it was not on a drop-back.

Anyway, this point has been made about Murray & LJax already and i don’t dispute it. But no question these QBs take more hits than others.

 

[Da Guru]

It is a flashing sign of who is a good coach and who isn't and the NFL is littered with those that won't change.

It’s a very good point. Look at how CHI used Fields before taking the shackles off his legs - once he started running, the passing game also started clicking (up until the Mooney injury).

So in a sense, cap tip to Baltimore for relying on LJax strengths and designing an offense to suit them.

I’d still like to see him throw more - he does have a pretty decent arm.

Fields is stronger and built more like Allen and even he was banged up from running at the end of the year. The shelf life for QBs that run so much is shorter in the NFL. Mahomes is probably the perfect mix, he can run when needed but is a pass first.

A reminder that Fields, Jackson, and Hurts all got injured being sacked, not from running.

Running QBs shelf life is shorter, because athleticism tends to drop off faster than arm talent or decision making.

I would argue Jackson is the best QB of the trio.

I was watching the Bear-Lions game and Fields hurt his hip on a run. Bizarre for both being mobile Fields along with Russell Wilson tied for the lead in being sacked, 55 times each. Hurts was sacked 38 times and missed some games. The QBs who can run seem to hold the ball longer thinking they can get out of trouble.

 

[-OZ-]

Harbaugh and GM sure made it clear: Lamar will be back. Zero question.

Ravens head coach John Harbaugh: '200 percent' chance Lamar Jackson stays in Baltimore

I wasn't a math major but 200% sounds pretty definite that he is staying in Baltimore.

is this like when someone says they’re going to turn things around, do a full 360°?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I was watching the Bear-Lions game and Fields hurt his hip on a run

Thank you - that was my recollection also.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Harbaugh and GM sure made it clear: Lamar will be back. Zero question.

Ravens head coach John Harbaugh: '200 percent' chance Lamar Jackson stays in Baltimore

I wasn't a math major but 200% sounds pretty definite that he is staying in Baltimore.

is this like when someone says they’re going to turn things around, do a full 360°?

1000%

 

[humpback]

He came from a Pro-Style offense.
-------------------------------------------------
Lamar Jackson
@Lj_era8
Thank youView attachment 3405
-----------------
Emory Hunt
@FBallGameplan
Lemme just get this out here before folks start wrongly discussing the #Ravens search for a new OC…
Lamar Jackson ran a ‘pro style’ offense in college at Louisville under Bobby Petrino

Where he completed 57% of his passes and had more rushing attempts than completions.

If people want to argue he can be a decent passing QB fine, but those guys don't get record setting contracts. What makes him so dangerous is his running, and no team is going to pay him a ton of money to drop back and throw it 40 times per game.

Why does it have to be an either or situation?

Teams will pay him for the next level talent he has always demonstrated.

Not sure what you're asking. Obviously he's going to both run and pass, but just as obvious is the fact that running his his strength, i.e. the "next level" talent that he has demonstrated.

 

[travdogg]

It is a flashing sign of who is a good coach and who isn't and the NFL is littered with those that won't change.

It’s a very good point. Look at how CHI used Fields before taking the shackles off his legs - once he started running, the passing game also started clicking (up until the Mooney injury).

So in a sense, cap tip to Baltimore for relying on LJax strengths and designing an offense to suit them.

I’d still like to see him throw more - he does have a pretty decent arm.

Fields is stronger and built more like Allen and even he was banged up from running at the end of the year. The shelf life for QBs that run so much is shorter in the NFL. Mahomes is probably the perfect mix, he can run when needed but is a pass first.

A reminder that Fields, Jackson, and Hurts all got injured being sacked, not from running.

Running QBs shelf life is shorter, because athleticism tends to drop off faster than arm talent or decision making.

I would argue Jackson is the best QB of the trio.

I was watching the Bear-Lions game and Fields hurt his hip on a run. Bizarre for both being mobile Fields along with Russell Wilson tied for the lead in being sacked, 55 times each. Hurts was sacked 38 times and missed some games. The QBs who can run seem to hold the ball longer thinking they can get out of trouble.

I was talking about the Falcons game. I wasn't counting the Lions game, as I firmly believe Fields wasn't really all that hurt, and the Bears just wanted to ensure they were more likely to get the #1 pick.

Sacks are a QB stat, sometimes like you said, its because guys think they can escape (Fields) and sometimes its because a guy thinks he'll find a place to throw the ball before he gets sacked (Burrow) and sometimes its a combo of both (Wilson)

 

[phandango]

Fields is stronger and built more like Allen and even he was banged up from running at the end of the year. The shelf life for QBs that run so much is shorter in the NFL. Mahomes is probably the perfect mix, he can run when needed but is a pass first.

A reminder that Fields, Jackson, and Hurts all got injured being sacked, not from running.

Running QBs shelf life is shorter, because athleticism tends to drop off faster than arm talent or decision making.

I would argue Jackson is the best QB of the trio.

There isn't any evidence that mobile QBs are injured more often than pocket passers, and there's nothing suggesting that their careers are shorter, either. They get injured at the same rate. Besides, if the assumption is that mobile QBs suffer more lower-body injuries than pocket passers because they run more, then you'd also have to assume that pocket passers suffer more arm/shoulder injuries because they throw more, but that isn't the case.

 

[kface]

Fields is stronger and built more like Allen and even he was banged up from running at the end of the year. The shelf life for QBs that run so much is shorter in the NFL. Mahomes is probably the perfect mix, he can run when needed but is a pass first.

A reminder that Fields, Jackson, and Hurts all got injured being sacked, not from running.

Running QBs shelf life is shorter, because athleticism tends to drop off faster than arm talent or decision making.

I would argue Jackson is the best QB of the trio.

There isn't any evidence that mobile QBs are injured more often than pocket passers, and there's nothing suggesting that their careers are shorter, either. They get injured at the same rate. Besides, if the assumption is that mobile QBs suffer more lower-body injuries than pocket passers because they run more, then you'd also have to assume that pocket passers suffer more arm/shoulder injuries because they throw more, but that isn't the case.

There is a massive difference between throwing 40 times a game and getting run over by a 250lb lb 10 times a game

 

[phandango]

There is a massive difference between throwing 40 times a game and getting run over by a 250lb lb 10 times a game

QBs can run out of bounds. They can slide. Just because you run 10 times a game doesn't mean each one of those runs ends in a violent tackle. Regardless of a QB's style of play, all QBs get sacked. All of them get hit. There is no evidence that one style of play is more prone to getting injured than another style.

 

[Chaka]

He came from a Pro-Style offense.
-------------------------------------------------
Lamar Jackson
@Lj_era8
Thank youView attachment 3405
-----------------
Emory Hunt
@FBallGameplan
Lemme just get this out here before folks start wrongly discussing the #Ravens search for a new OC…
Lamar Jackson ran a ‘pro style’ offense in college at Louisville under Bobby Petrino

Where he completed 57% of his passes and had more rushing attempts than completions.

If people want to argue he can be a decent passing QB fine, but those guys don't get record setting contracts. What makes him so dangerous is his running, and no team is going to pay him a ton of money to drop back and throw it 40 times per game.

Why does it have to be an either or situation?

Teams will pay him for the next level talent he has always demonstrated.

Not sure what you're asking. Obviously he's going to both run and pass, but just as obvious is the fact that running his his strength, i.e. the "next level" talent that he has demonstrated.

Simply noting that the notion of getting paid to pass 40 times/game is irrelevant. And, IMO, the talk of his limited passing ability seems ill considered at best. Lamar is already a 63.7% passer on his career, he has proven able to push that to 66% with, at best, an above average receiving corps. We can sell Mark Andrews as top 2 at his position for sure but Marquise Brown? He's not a #1 WR, in Baltimore or anywhere else. Throw in Greg Roman as the OC and are we really putting Lamar down as "can't be an elite passer"?

With his running ability there is no reason Lamar cannot be an elite passing option. Is the difference between him and Jalen Hurts the fact that Jalen is just naturally more accurate or did having AJ Brown alongside DeVonta Smith facilitate him taking that jump this year? Did Josh Allen move from being a 56% passer to a 65% passer out of nowhere or did Brian Daboll and adding Stefon Diggs have an impact? And, maybe I am reading this wrong but are some people trying to sell Fields as a better prospect at this point? I probably misinterpreted that.

Yes, I agree that Lamar will get paid because when he drops back to pass the threat of the run will always exist. That makes the prospect of him being a top passer as well even more likely, although better coaching and a legitimate #1 WR would sure help. He doesn't need 15 designed runs/game for teams to have to account for it every single play. Even when his running starts to fade teams will have to account for it every single play.

 

[Tau837]

What NFL isn't designed around the quarterback?

Chargers, 2022. That's why the OC and QB coach were fired this week.

 

[Chaka]

What NFL isn't designed around the quarterback?

Chargers, 2022. That's why the OC and QB coach were fired this week.

They're not always well designed.

 

[humpback]

He came from a Pro-Style offense.
-------------------------------------------------
Lamar Jackson
@Lj_era8
Thank youView attachment 3405
-----------------
Emory Hunt
@FBallGameplan
Lemme just get this out here before folks start wrongly discussing the #Ravens search for a new OC…
Lamar Jackson ran a ‘pro style’ offense in college at Louisville under Bobby Petrino

Where he completed 57% of his passes and had more rushing attempts than completions.

If people want to argue he can be a decent passing QB fine, but those guys don't get record setting contracts. What makes him so dangerous is his running, and no team is going to pay him a ton of money to drop back and throw it 40 times per game.

Why does it have to be an either or situation?

Teams will pay him for the next level talent he has always demonstrated.

Not sure what you're asking. Obviously he's going to both run and pass, but just as obvious is the fact that running his his strength, i.e. the "next level" talent that he has demonstrated.

Simply noting that the notion of getting paid to pass 40 times/game is irrelevant. And, IMO, the talk of his limited passing ability seems ill considered at best. Lamar is already a 63.7% passer on his career, he has proven able to push that to 66% with, at best, an above average receiving corps. We can sell Mark Andrews as top 2 at his position for sure but Marquise Brown? He's not a #1 WR, in Baltimore or anywhere else. Throw in Greg Roman as the OC and are we really putting Lamar down as "can't be an elite passer"?

With his running ability there is no reason Lamar cannot be an elite passing option. Is the difference between him and Jalen Hurts the fact that Jalen is just naturally more accurate or did having AJ Brown alongside DeVonta Smith facilitate him taking that jump this year? Did Josh Allen move from being a 56% passer to a 65% passer out of nowhere or did Brian Daboll and adding Stefon Diggs have an impact? And, maybe I am reading this wrong but are some people trying to sell Fields as a better prospect at this point? I probably misinterpreted that.

Yes, I agree that Lamar will get paid because when he drops back to pass the threat of the run will always exist. That makes the prospect of him being a top passer as well even more likely, although better coaching and a legitimate #1 WR would sure help. He doesn't need 15 designed runs/game for teams to have to account for it every single play. Even when his running starts to fade teams will have to account for it every single play.

Still not sure what your point is. Right now Lamar is not an elite passing option, thus no one is going to pay him to be one or construct their offense as if he is one. The post I quoted was some tweet saying how he ran a pro-style offense in college and how that could impact the search for a new OC. IMO it would be idiotic for the Ravens (or any other team) to go all-in on Lamar becoming an elite passing option instead of constructing it to use him as the weapon he has been his entire pro and college career (as the Ravens have).

 

[Chaka]

Still not sure what your point is. Right now Lamar is not an elite passing option, thus no one is going to pay him to be one or construct their offense as if he is one.

The bolded is what I am saying is irrelevant. It's a straw man. Sure, they're not going to pay him to be an "elite passing option" they are going to pay him to be an elite NFL quarterback. And they will absolutely design their offense around him (in Baltimore or wherever) because all NFL teams, try to, design their offense around the strengths and weaknesses of their QBs.

Hurts wasn't an elite passing option last season, did they change the offense? No. Is Hurts suddenly a liability because Minshew isn't as effective when he is in the lineup? No. But for some reason the Ravens can apparently only run a highly specific offense that is apparently so radically different than anything else in the NFL that it is burden on the entire team except Lamar? And they can only have a backup QB with high end rushing ability to backup Lamar? That is difficult to swallow.

Sure, Lamar is better suited to a different offense than Tom Brady. Big deal.

Like any team they need talent and good coaching across the board to support whatever offense they construct. If Andy Reid can turn Michael Vick from a 53% into a 60% passer, or Denny Green (and Randy Moss & Cris Carter) can turn Randall Cunningham from a 55% passer into a 61% passer. Then I think the right coaching and talent can turn Lamar from a 64% career passer into something better than he already is, and he is currently quite excellent.

 

[humpback]

Still not sure what your point is. Right now Lamar is not an elite passing option, thus no one is going to pay him to be one or construct their offense as if he is one.

The bolded is what I am saying is irrelevant. It's a straw man. Sure, they're not going to pay him to be an "elite passing option" they are going to pay him to be an elite NFL quarterback. And they will absolutely design their offense around him (in Baltimore or wherever) because all NFL teams, try to, design their offense around the strengths and weaknesses of their QBs.

Hurts wasn't an elite passing option last season, did they change the offense? No. Is Hurts suddenly a liability because Minshew isn't as effective when he is in the lineup? No. But for some reason the Ravens can apparently only run a highly specific offense that is apparently so radically different than anything else in the NFL that it is burden on the entire team except Lamar? And they can only have a backup QB with high end rushing ability to backup Lamar? That is difficult to swallow.

Sure, Lamar is better suited to a different offense than Tom Brady. Big deal.

Like any team they need talent and good coaching across the board to support whatever offense they construct. If Andy Reid can turn Michael Vick from a 53% into a 60% passer, or Denny Green (and Randy Moss & Cris Carter) can turn Randall Cunningham from a 55% passer into a 61% passer. Then I think the right coaching and talent can turn Lamar from a 64% career passer into something better than he already is, and he is currently quite excellent.

It's not even close to a strawman, it was in response to a post about him being in a "pro style" offense in college and how it could impact their new OC choice. I posted what I did because I don't believe it's going to impact that decision at all, and it seems highly unlikely that they're going to drastically change what they've been doing with him. It's entirely relevant.

Speaking of strawmen, what does Hurts have to do with Lamar? He isn't an elite passing QB this year either, but more importantly he isn't getting a new OC right now nor in negotiations for a massive new contract so he has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Lamar being suited to a different offense than Tom Brady actually is a big deal, it's the whole deal (when it comes to this topic). It's like you didn't read the post I was responding to.

 

[Judge Smails]

lackluster performance for the past couple of years,

Lackluster?

Over the last two seasons, he's 15-12 with 33 TDs and 20 INTs.

Not bad, but we're talking about $250 million here.

Russell Wilson begs to differ

 

[Tau837]

On the subject of the exclusive tag, I got this in an email from Spotrac and found it interesting:

The exclusive QB tag currently projects to cost $45.24M. Except not yet. This exact figure won't be determined until after the restricted tender season ends, somewhere around early April. What does this mean for the Ravens? Baltimore will carry the non-exclusive franchise tag value (projected to be around $32M) until that exclusive price is set. Also, the exclusive price is based on the Top 5 QB cap hits, workout bonuses excluded.

Right now, those 5 figures are extremely fluid, as Deshaun Watson's $54.9M, Dak Prescott's $49.1M, & Patrick Mahomes' $46.8M cap figures are surely to be restructured, Josh Allen's $39.7M figure is likely to be converted down, & Ryan Tannehill's $36.6M number might be removed altogether based on his roster status. In other words, let's treat this is as a $32M hit in March until further notice.

Sounds like there is less downside to the exclusive tag than I realized, and its pricetag may end up well below the currently projected $45M.

 

[Chaka]

Still not sure what your point is. Right now Lamar is not an elite passing option, thus no one is going to pay him to be one or construct their offense as if he is one.

The bolded is what I am saying is irrelevant. It's a straw man. Sure, they're not going to pay him to be an "elite passing option" they are going to pay him to be an elite NFL quarterback. And they will absolutely design their offense around him (in Baltimore or wherever) because all NFL teams, try to, design their offense around the strengths and weaknesses of their QBs.

Hurts wasn't an elite passing option last season, did they change the offense? No. Is Hurts suddenly a liability because Minshew isn't as effective when he is in the lineup? No. But for some reason the Ravens can apparently only run a highly specific offense that is apparently so radically different than anything else in the NFL that it is burden on the entire team except Lamar? And they can only have a backup QB with high end rushing ability to backup Lamar? That is difficult to swallow.

Sure, Lamar is better suited to a different offense than Tom Brady. Big deal.

Like any team they need talent and good coaching across the board to support whatever offense they construct. If Andy Reid can turn Michael Vick from a 53% into a 60% passer, or Denny Green (and Randy Moss & Cris Carter) can turn Randall Cunningham from a 55% passer into a 61% passer. Then I think the right coaching and talent can turn Lamar from a 64% career passer into something better than he already is, and he is currently quite excellent.

It's not even close to a strawman, it was in response to a post about him being in a "pro style" offense in college and how it could impact their new OC choice. I posted what I did because I don't believe it's going to impact that decision at all, and it seems highly unlikely that they're going to drastically change what they've been doing with him. It's entirely relevant.

Speaking of strawmen, what does Hurts have to do with Lamar? He isn't an elite passing QB this year either, but more importantly he isn't getting a new OC right now nor in negotiations for a massive new contract so he has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Lamar being suited to a different offense than Tom Brady actually is a big deal, it's the whole deal (when it comes to this topic). It's like you didn't read the post I was responding to.

Why would I respond to that post? You are the one who suggested Lamar isn't suited to run a "pro-style offense", which merely refers to offenses that are run in the NFL.

The way you are using it suggests an offense that is skewed towards passing over running. Okay, that's fine. What is it about Lamar's game that prevents him from running a more passing forward offense? His career 64% completions, 6.1 TD%, 23 INT% & 7.4 Y/A? Why should we anticipate a drop in that production if he had fewer designed runs? The threat of the run exists even if he never has another designed called for him again in his career. In every passing QB metric Lamar has been in the same class as his peers. Personally I would like to see a Y/A closer to 8 than 7.4 but he has pushed that number to 7.8 previously so it isn't outrageous to suggest he could do it again.

My feeling is many people are judging Lamar as a passer by some kind of highly subjective and easily biased "eyeball" test. If those people want to show us their NFL bona fides I would be very open to their opinions, but if they're just a bunch of MMQBs it's hard to attach much value.

Hurts relates to Lamar because people said the same things about his passing ability going into this season and his metrics were terrific this year. Same for Josh Allen btw. His accuracy was a huge question mark coming into the NFL and lasted until his third year. Now he is considered an elite passer even though his accuracy has dropped 6% from 2020. Not sure what you classify as "elite" but if you think it's Josh Allen or Joe Burrow then Hurts was easily as good as a passer in 2022. So, why not Lamar? The only tier above Allen & Burrow would be Mahomes and I don't think we can fault any QB for not being Mahomes.

More and more NFL offenses are being built around QBs who can throw and run. I would love to see what a guy like Andy Reid, Sean Payton, McDermott/Daboll could do with a guy like Lamar. My guess is the "elite" passer conversation would never be mentioned again.

 

[Bri]

If the QB is going to take up 25 percent of the cap, then they have to already have a championship team in place. The enormous contract hinders their ability to re-sign and sign free agents. I don't think they have a championship team.
I'd thank him for the memories and move on.

50mil+ is just too much to tie up in one guy when more often than not drives need a desperation catch by Andrews or a WR to continue. The D isn't as dominant as it once was either.

There's plenty of pieces in BAL but they still need some retooling.

I almost wish Andrews wouldn't practice all summer and they'd learn to play QB with WRs in a more traditional way.

They need to move on from some backs too- possibly all of them.

They're a good solid team but....

 

[menobrown]

My feeling is many people are judging Lamar as a passer by some kind of highly subjective and easily biased "eyeball" test. If those people want to show us their NFL bona fides I would be very open to their opinions, but if they're just a bunch of MMQBs it's hard to attach much value.

Before I get into this below I want to make it clear I think he's one of the most dangerous QB's in the league, a dynamic football player. Any discussion I'm having or knock I have on Lamar is about his ability as a pure passer, to refute any notion he's anything close to being an "elite" passer and or that team would ever view him as an elite pure drop back passer.

Your sentence I quoted is basically akin to saying if you don't work in the NFL then eyeball tests means nothing to you. We are not going to get that with posters on a fantasy message board but I'll provide the next best thing I can come up with.

Mike Sando does the NFL QB tier list every year based on input form 50 NFL coaches and execs and I'll relay what they say about Lamar.

The article is here, https://theathletic.com/3443022/2022/07/25/nfl-best-quarterbacks-tiers/, it came out in late July and the rankings from those 50 NFL execs and coaches looks downright awful right now. But that's another subject to me, I'm simply trying to provide feedback on those that are NFL credentialed.

Lamar was QB10 which just for starters is pretty low, lower then I'd have had him, and you have to assume he's that low it's due to his passing and here are some comments on his passing:

*“If he has to pass to win the game, they ain’t winning the game,” another defensive coordinator said. “He’s so unique as an athlete and he’s really a good football player, but I don’t (care) if he wins the league MVP 12 times, I don’t think he’ll ever be a 1 as a quarterback. He’ll be a 1 as a football player, but not as a quarterback. So many games come down to two-minute, and that is why they have a hard time advancing even when they are good on defense. Playoffs are tight. You have to be able to throw the ball, and he is just so inconsistent throwing the ball. It is hit or miss.”


*“I think what we saw with Lamar, starting with the Miami game and carrying through the rest of the season, was someone who struggled to identify coverages and make pre-snap reads,” an offensive coach said. “He is still a really dynamic player, brings something different to the group, but by and large, is going to have to continue to improve as a passer in order go deep in the playoffs and put himself in the Tier 1 group.”


*At the same time, I can totally see why you can go anywhere from 1 to 3 on him. If he has to drop back and throw the ball, it is not the same,
The comments above were from article in July 2022. The comments below are from this article the previous year: https://theathletic.com/2727336/202...hes-and-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/

*“I think he is who he is going to be,” an evaluator said. “They have to call the game a certain way, and if they call it right, he will produce for them. He is not going to sit back in the pocket and kill you. That is just not who he is.”
*To me, he is a guy you win with and his legs are an X-factor, but you do not win because of his arm. I did not think there were enough special passing traits to elevate him. All the guys in Tier 2 are better pure passers.”

I linked both articles and you can see I did not omit any positive comments on his ability as a pure passer. There were plenty of positive comments regarding his ability as a threat, dynamic player, etc but again not my point(and I agree with that notion). I would say this was the most positive comment I saw on his passing abilty:



*Surround him with bigger targets, guys with bigger catch radiuses, where he doesn’t have to be always be a pinpoint passer. Do that and he is going to succeed.

 

[humpback]

Still not sure what your point is. Right now Lamar is not an elite passing option, thus no one is going to pay him to be one or construct their offense as if he is one.

The bolded is what I am saying is irrelevant. It's a straw man. Sure, they're not going to pay him to be an "elite passing option" they are going to pay him to be an elite NFL quarterback. And they will absolutely design their offense around him (in Baltimore or wherever) because all NFL teams, try to, design their offense around the strengths and weaknesses of their QBs.

Hurts wasn't an elite passing option last season, did they change the offense? No. Is Hurts suddenly a liability because Minshew isn't as effective when he is in the lineup? No. But for some reason the Ravens can apparently only run a highly specific offense that is apparently so radically different than anything else in the NFL that it is burden on the entire team except Lamar? And they can only have a backup QB with high end rushing ability to backup Lamar? That is difficult to swallow.

Sure, Lamar is better suited to a different offense than Tom Brady. Big deal.

Like any team they need talent and good coaching across the board to support whatever offense they construct. If Andy Reid can turn Michael Vick from a 53% into a 60% passer, or Denny Green (and Randy Moss & Cris Carter) can turn Randall Cunningham from a 55% passer into a 61% passer. Then I think the right coaching and talent can turn Lamar from a 64% career passer into something better than he already is, and he is currently quite excellent.

It's not even close to a strawman, it was in response to a post about him being in a "pro style" offense in college and how it could impact their new OC choice. I posted what I did because I don't believe it's going to impact that decision at all, and it seems highly unlikely that they're going to drastically change what they've been doing with him. It's entirely relevant.

Speaking of strawmen, what does Hurts have to do with Lamar? He isn't an elite passing QB this year either, but more importantly he isn't getting a new OC right now nor in negotiations for a massive new contract so he has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Lamar being suited to a different offense than Tom Brady actually is a big deal, it's the whole deal (when it comes to this topic). It's like you didn't read the post I was responding to.

Why would I respond to that post? You are the one who suggested Lamar isn't suited to run a "pro-style offense", which merely refers to offenses that are run in the NFL.

The way you are using it suggests an offense that is skewed towards passing over running. Okay, that's fine. What is it about Lamar's game that prevents him from running a more passing forward offense? His career 64% completions, 6.1 TD%, 23 INT% & 7.4 Y/A? Why should we anticipate a drop in that production if he had fewer designed runs? The threat of the run exists even if he never has another designed called for him again in his career. In every passing QB metric Lamar has been in the same class as his peers. Personally I would like to see a Y/A closer to 8 than 7.4 but he has pushed that number to 7.8 previously so it isn't outrageous to suggest he could do it again.

My feeling is many people are judging Lamar as a passer by some kind of highly subjective and easily biased "eyeball" test. If those people want to show us their NFL bona fides I would be very open to their opinions, but if they're just a bunch of MMQBs it's hard to attach much value.

Hurts relates to Lamar because people said the same things about his passing ability going into this season and his metrics were terrific this year. Same for Josh Allen btw. His accuracy was a huge question mark coming into the NFL and lasted until his third year. Now he is considered an elite passer even though his accuracy has dropped 6% from 2020. Not sure what you classify as "elite" but if you think it's Josh Allen or Joe Burrow then Hurts was easily as good as a passer in 2022. So, why not Lamar? The only tier above Allen & Burrow would be Mahomes and I don't think we can fault any QB for not being Mahomes.

More and more NFL offenses are being built around QBs who can throw and run. I would love to see what a guy like Andy Reid, Sean Payton, McDermott/Daboll could do with a guy like Lamar. My guess is the "elite" passer conversation would never be mentioned again.

Because that was the original post that I responded to, so that's the context of my post that you're ignoring and spinning it into another topic altogether.

I'm not suggesting that he isn't suited to/can't run a "pro-style offense", I'm saying that his strength is a "non-pro-style offense" so logic dictates that's what type of offense anyone who is going to give him a gigantic contract is going to have him run. No one is going to pay him more than Mahomes, and then have him try to run the Mahomes offense, because they know that won't be utilizing his strengths. What separates him is his running ability, that's what any smart team is going to capitalize on. So, the next OC is very likely going to keep a similar offense, maybe with a few tweaks.

Shifting gears to the fight you seem to want to have, Lamar isn't a great passer, never has been. Of course that doesn't mean he can't improve (he already has some), and logic dictates that if they stacked the team with stud receivers and brought in a stud coach his numbers should improve by default, but that certainly isn't the only or even main issue. Yes, people like Allen have improved, but for every Allen there are probably 100 who never improve enough to be thought of as elite passers. And no, I don't consider Hurts to be an elite passing QB on the level of Allen or Burrow, not right now.

I'm not sure why this even matters, but IMO he's an elite football player, just not an elite passing QB.

 

[Tau837]

What is it about Lamar's game that prevents him from running a more passing forward offense? His career 64% completions, 6.1 TD%, 23 INT% & 7.4 Y/A?

Consider:

• PFF passing grade and its rank among QBs with at least 100 dropbacks in the season in question:
  • 2018 - 56.5, #35 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2019 - 82.5, #6 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2020 - 74.9, #17 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2021 - 65.9, #25 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2022 - 72.3, #18 among 48 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
• Per PFF, NFL passer rating and its rank among QBs with at least 100 dropbacks in the season in question:
  • 2018 - 83.6, #32 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2019 - 106.9, #3 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2020 - 95.8, #18 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2021 - 87.0, #27 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2022 - 91.1, tied for #18-19 among 48 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks

Other than 2019, those metrics are not impressive. 3 seasons have passed since 2019, and that was also a singularly good season for Jackson... he never repeated anything close to that performance as a passer.

Why should we anticipate a drop in that production if he had fewer designed runs? The threat of the run exists even if he never has another designed called for him again in his career.

Come on, man. Are you really going to represent that you believe that his passing performance is not improved by his rushing performance and frequency? If his rushing frequency and effectiveness are reduced over time, you are saying you think that will have no effect on his passing performance? SMH.

 

[Chaka]

What is it about Lamar's game that prevents him from running a more passing forward offense? His career 64% completions, 6.1 TD%, 23 INT% & 7.4 Y/A?

Consider:

• PFF passing grade and its rank among QBs with at least 100 dropbacks in the season in question:
  • 2018 - 56.5, #35 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2019 - 82.5, #6 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2020 - 74.9, #17 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2021 - 65.9, #25 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2022 - 72.3, #18 among 48 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
• Per PFF, NFL passer rating and its rank among QBs with at least 100 dropbacks in the season in question:
  • 2018 - 83.6, #32 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2019 - 106.9, #3 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2020 - 95.8, #18 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2021 - 87.0, #27 among 44 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks
  • 2022 - 91.1, tied for #18-19 among 48 QBs with at least 100 dropbacks

Other than 2019, those metrics are not impressive. 3 seasons have passed since 2019, and that was also a singularly good season for Jackson... he never repeated anything close to that performance as a passer.

Why should we anticipate a drop in that production if he had fewer designed runs? The threat of the run exists even if he never has another designed called for him again in his career.

Come on, man. Are you really going to represent that you believe that his passing performance is not improved by his rushing performance and frequency? If his rushing frequency and effectiveness are reduced over time, you are saying you think that will have no effect on his passing performance? SMH.

I absolutely believe his rushing ability helps his passing, but I don't think the frequency of his designed runs is the driving factor for anything. I think the threat of him running is what matters. And his running bona fides have been well established at this point.

I agree he has peaked in his current (former) offense and there are absolutely questions if he can be better than what we have seen over the past two seasons.

He has flashed his ceiling this season and his decline this year tracked Bateman's injuries pretty well.

IMO the Ravens off-season is shaping up to be one of the more interesting ones to track.

 

[massraider]

This Eagles/Giants game is a great example of what these running QBs really add: What they open up in the running game. It's not a coincidence that RBs playing with these guys always have great YPC averages.

 

[Tau837]

I absolutely believe his rushing ability helps his passing, but I don't think the frequency of his designed runs is the driving factor for anything.

This season, Jackson averaged 27.2 passing attempts and 9.3 rushing attempts per game. Just to be clear, you think Jackson's passing efficiency would be unaffected if he instead averaged 35 passing attempts and 1.5 rushing attempts per game? I would have to disagree with that.

 

[Chaka]

I absolutely believe his rushing ability helps his passing, but I don't think the frequency of his designed runs is the driving factor for anything.

This season, Jackson averaged 27.2 passing attempts and 9.3 rushing attempts per game. Just to be clear, you think Jackson's passing efficiency would be unaffected if he instead averaged 35 passing attempts and 1.5 rushing attempts per game? I would have to disagree with that.

And it is fair to disagree with that.

My feeling is that defenses game plan for the threat of the run. Less upfield rush from the line, more contain, using a spy etc. Lamar has established himself as one of the best rushing QBs of all time. IMO defenses aren't going to stop using those schemes against him.

To be clear I am not suggesting Jackson would be best served in an offense devoid of RPO because that would be a waste of his ability and reduce the pressure his running ability puts on opposing defenses. But if the balance of the RPO sets shifts to more P than R I don't see why that would negatively impact his passing output.

Until we establish that his running ability has significantly diminished why would defenses change the way they defend him?

 

[Chaka]

See? It's like I have been saying this entire time:

Josh Allen = Not elite.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Steelers Depot
@Steelersdepot

Joe Burrow likely to beat Lamar Jackson to the contract altar

 

[Chaka]

Steelers Depot View attachment 3410
@Steelersdepot

Joe Burrow likely to beat Lamar Jackson to the contract altar

But...is he elite???


Yes. Yes, I know Burrow is elite...Allen, OTOH....???

 

[JohnnyU]

Sometimes I think fantasy players rag on players they practically gave away before they became a thing. You know, to feel better about it.

 

[massraider]

Steelers Depot View attachment 3410
@Steelersdepot

Joe Burrow likely to beat Lamar Jackson to the contract altar

This would be spectacular news for the Ravens, and Ravens fans.

If Burrow signs a new deal, Ravens have their non-Deshaun Watson data point. They can go to Lamar's mom and say, "this is the guarantees that are being paid."

It would only be bad for the Ravens if Burrow signed a fully guaranteed deal. Considering that Burrow is employed by the Cincinnati Bengals, I think we can pencil in NO on that one.

 

[travdogg]

Right now, in my opinion, we have the best 4 teams in the NFL in the final 4. The Ravens with Lamar might have beaten Cincy or KC.

Lamar Jackson is absolutely a top-10 NFL QB, and he has done it with a pretty meh WR group (though a top-notch TE) and an OC that he seemed to dislike.

Its very likely 2019 is the peak, and is never reached again, but that was an all-time great season. This was arguably his 2nd best season before he got hurt, he was on pace for:

3,447 passing yards
26 passing TDs
11 INTs

172 carries
1,167 yards
5 rushing TDs

That would have basically been Aaron Rodgers passing numbers, with Travis Etienne's rushing numbers.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Considering that Burrow is employed by the Cincinnati Bengals

Um, these are not the 'same ole Bengals' in terms of spending that many assume.
They changed a few years ago, right about the time when they got Burrow.
---------------------------
Another Bengals spending spree points to a make-or-break year in 2021
---------------------------
They 'currently' have the fourth most available cap space in the league, they have enough room and everything in place to give Joe an extension even if people are still stuck in the antiquated narrative that the Bengals don't pay.
I predict that many will be shocked when Joe gets paid changing that old paradigm that the Bengals don't pay.
In this case, they can't afford NOT to pay especially if Joe gets them to ANOTHER Super Bowl.
Doug Clawson
@doug_clawson
Joe Burrow has made 2 Conference Championship games in his first 3 seasons All other QBs drafted No. 1 overall have done it 3 times COMBINED in their first 3 seasons (Terry Bradshaw, Andrew Luck, Jared Goff)

 

[massraider]

Um, these are not the 'same ole Bengals' in terms of spending that many assume

Sure they are

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Um, these are not the 'same ole Bengals' in terms of spending that many assume

Sure they are

Pat McAfee
@PatMcAfeeShow
Ol’
@RapSheet
just said that the Bengals are gearing up for an extension with Mr Joe Burrow this off-season..

Says their business is “Thriving” and they are ready for it financially..

CONGRATS TO CINCY

Pumped for yinz
-----------------------
The above tweet was posted BEFORE Burrow and the Bengals beat the Bills in Buffalo.

 

[massraider]

Um, these are not the 'same ole Bengals' in terms of spending that many assume

Sure they are

Pat McAfee
@PatMcAfeeShow
Ol’
@RapSheet
just said that the Bengals are gearing up for an extension with Mr Joe Burrow this off-season..

Says their business is “Thriving” and they are ready for it financially..

CONGRATS TO CINCY

Pumped for yinz
-----------------------
The above tweet was posted BEFORE Burrow and the Bengals beat the Bills in Buffalo.

You believe the Bengals will fully guarantee Burrow's deal?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Um, these are not the 'same ole Bengals' in terms of spending that many assume

Sure they are

Pat McAfee
@PatMcAfeeShow
Ol’
@RapSheet
just said that the Bengals are gearing up for an extension with Mr Joe Burrow this off-season..

Says their business is “Thriving” and they are ready for it financially..

CONGRATS TO CINCY

Pumped for yinz
-----------------------
The above tweet was posted BEFORE Burrow and the Bengals beat the Bills in Buffalo.

You believe the Bengals will fully guarantee Burrow's deal?

I think someone keeps mentioning one of the seven fallacies of logic in this thread pertaining to the strawman fallacy.
That one applies here.

 

[zeeshan2]

NFL teams around the league believe that the #Ravens could trade former league MVP, QB Lamar Jackson, if they can't get a deal done, according to @JFowlerESPN

 

[Bracie Smathers]

[URL='https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter']Adam Schefter[/URL]
@AdamSchefter

Ravens’ HC John Harbaugh said Lamar Jackson will be involved in the search for the team’s new offensive coordinator.
-------------------
Jeremy Fowler
@JFowlerESPN

#Ravens have requested permission to interview #Vikings pass-game coordinator Brian Angelichio for their offensive coordinator position, per source.
Veteran NFL coach helped Minnesota to a top-five passing offense in 2022.
--------------------

 

[massraider]

I think someone keeps mentioning one of the seven fallacies of logic in this thread pertaining to the strawman fallacy.
That one applies here

I think I said the Bengals weren't fully guaranteeing his deal. IMO.

You seem to disagree.

 

[menobrown]

he has done it with a pretty meh WR group (though a top-notch TE)

So like what Mahomes has been working with all year.

 

[travdogg]

he has done it with a pretty meh WR group (though a top-notch TE)

So like what Mahomes has been working with all year.

I mean, sure, but what you are getting at, is anyone arguing against Mahomes being an elite QB?

 

[menobrown]

he has done it with a pretty meh WR group (though a top-notch TE)

So like what Mahomes has been working with all year.

I mean, sure, but what you are getting at, is anyone arguing against Mahomes being an elite QB?

No, I'm saying a lot of people have been making excuses for Lamar because of his lack of weapons.

 

[Chaka]

Um, these are not the 'same ole Bengals' in terms of spending that many assume

Sure they are

Pat McAfee
@PatMcAfeeShow
Ol’
@RapSheet
just said that the Bengals are gearing up for an extension with Mr Joe Burrow this off-season..

Says their business is “Thriving” and they are ready for it financially..

CONGRATS TO CINCY

Pumped for yinz
-----------------------
The above tweet was posted BEFORE Burrow and the Bengals beat the Bills in Buffalo.

You believe the Bengals will fully guarantee Burrow's deal?

I think if any eligible QB deserves a fully guaranteed deal it's gotta be Burrow. I think he's second only to Mahomes at this point, and it's a close second at that.

 

[travdogg]

he has done it with a pretty meh WR group (though a top-notch TE)

So like what Mahomes has been working with all year.

I mean, sure, but what you are getting at, is anyone arguing against Mahomes being an elite QB?

No, I'm saying a lot of people have been making excuses for Lamar because of his lack of weapons.

I still don't understand. Lamar's lack of weapons is a very valid excuse. Mahomes being able to do something is irrelevant, because if Mahomes is the bar, then basically every team's QB sucks.

 

[Chaka]

he has done it with a pretty meh WR group (though a top-notch TE)

So like what Mahomes has been working with all year.

I mean, sure, but what you are getting at, is anyone arguing against Mahomes being an elite QB?

No, I'm saying a lot of people have been making excuses for Lamar because of his lack of weapons.

I think it is unfair to diminish any QB for not being Mahomes.

Allen is a much better comp to Lamar than Mahomes.