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QB Tua Tagovailoa, MIA (2 Viewers)

DA RAIDERS said:
I hate this. I just want him to be ok.

If you watch his hands, they’re both convulsing similarly to the previous concussions. It just sucks.
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I don't get how peeps are saying this one wasn't as bad as 2022. To me it was clear as day similar at least. Dude went stiff. Again. Super duper sad.
 
It was pretty innocuous as well.

The guy just seems to be unable to protect himself. I get it's 4th down and an important play but he's still throwing himself forward into linebackers head first.

Get out with your head intact at this point. No sum of money could persuade me to carry on personally. Guys got $90mil guaranteed anyway, no need to put yourself through this.
 
Tua’s going to want to keep playing. That’s how elite athletes are. This is where everyone around him needs to step in and tell him he can’t. At some point it becomes criminal if the team and league let him get back onto the field.
 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Tua’s going to want to keep playing. That’s how elite athletes are. This is where everyone around him needs to step in and tell him he can’t. At some point it becomes criminal if the team and league let him get back onto the field.
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The whole league and all management are complicit in this in that any player has the risk of basically ruining their life forever on any given play. And we as fans continue to gobble up the product because it can be an exciting cultural phenomenon. In this example however if Tua can continue to play qb at a competitive level who is going to stop him from doing that? That’s the market and economics at play. Only when the fans and the money dries up due to the complicated morals of this decision is when teams will protect their players more seriously.

Anyways, as awful as it sounds, he probably will come back and play if he’s mentally and physically ok for this season after extensive tests. But I can’t see his decision making changing - he plays the way he plays. I’m not saying I want him to play- any sane person would probably give it up entirely. The morals then become- do you support NFL football still if he continues to play?

Didn’t realize this entire organization was a house of cards and now looks even more fraudulent.
 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Tua’s going to want to keep playing. That’s how elite athletes are. This is where everyone around him needs to step in and tell him he can’t. At some point it becomes criminal if the team and league let him get back onto the field.
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It's interesting because in most states i believe it is very much illegal to keep selling liquor to someone that is intoxicated. Seems somewhat simliar that you shouldn't be able to wipe your hands of this situation because the player wants to
 
I don't really have an opinion on if he should be playing again, I am not his brain doctor.
He had two concussions in 2022. The guy who let him back on the field was fired.
He played all of 2023, and didn't have any issues.

Would not surprise me if he comes back this year.
 
Insurance company take on this going to be interesting. On one hand his/Miami's medical insurance are probably going to say enough is enough we cannot cover this any more if he keeps playing. Aside from that I guess he has a separate policy for career ending injury which is not going to want him to stop playing 9and is also not going to want to have to calculate actual losses based on recent contracts and a rising market).

If this was his last game its a shame he couldn't have gone out on a better note.
 
In a lot of ways, Tua is 1 of 1 as it relates to concussions and the NFL response to them. Concussions happen every week in the NFL...but for Tua after now two incidents and head injuries that have been on national TV games along with the loss of consciousness (and fencing posture), there now is a focus on his fate that feels bigger than him.

Any appearance that even suggests he's being rushed back to the field of play will be judged and debated with much more intensity than any other player.
 
TheDirtyWord said:
In a lot of ways, Tua is 1 of 1 as it relates to concussions and the NFL response to them. Concussions happen every week in the NFL...but for Tua after now two incidents and head injuries that have been on national TV games along with the loss of consciousness (and fencing posture), there now is a focus on his fate that feels bigger than him.

Any appearance that even suggests he's being rushed back to the field of play will be judged and debated with much more intensity than any other player.
Click to expand...
Its really a lose / lose situation for everyone if he continues to play. Its only a matter of time before the next concussion and honestly the NFL will take a lot of heat for the next one. I can't see how any doctor would clear him for more hits to the head.

I think the right thing is for Tua to hang them up, but I respect his decision either way.
 
Tough break for Tua and Miami. Watching that play a few times it looked fairly benign compared to most NFL plays. I had thought he hurt his neck at first, cause that really didn't look like a concussion causing play.

If he wants to keep playing, I'd have no issue with it. The negligence talk and whatnot is overblown IMO. If he was a loved one I'd prefer he didn't, but he wouldn't be the first pro athlete to play himself into lifelong issues and certainly won't be the last.

It sucks, but that's the sport. If we want the sport to exist, then prepare to deal with stuff like this.
 
Max Power said:
TheDirtyWord said:
In a lot of ways, Tua is 1 of 1 as it relates to concussions and the NFL response to them. Concussions happen every week in the NFL...but for Tua after now two incidents and head injuries that have been on national TV games along with the loss of consciousness (and fencing posture), there now is a focus on his fate that feels bigger than him.

Any appearance that even suggests he's being rushed back to the field of play will be judged and debated with much more intensity than any other player.
Click to expand...
Its really a lose / lose situation for everyone if he continues to play. Its only a matter of time before the next concussion and honestly the NFL will take a lot of heat for the next one. I can't see how any doctor would clear him for more hits to the head.

I think the right thing is for Tua to hang them up, but I respect his decision either way.
Click to expand...
So say the league takes "heat", what does that look like exactly? Will they lose money? Cause if it doesn't cost them money, they aren't gonna do anything about it.
 
ghostguy123 said:
Max Power said:
TheDirtyWord said:
In a lot of ways, Tua is 1 of 1 as it relates to concussions and the NFL response to them. Concussions happen every week in the NFL...but for Tua after now two incidents and head injuries that have been on national TV games along with the loss of consciousness (and fencing posture), there now is a focus on his fate that feels bigger than him.

Any appearance that even suggests he's being rushed back to the field of play will be judged and debated with much more intensity than any other player.
Click to expand...
Its really a lose / lose situation for everyone if he continues to play. Its only a matter of time before the next concussion and honestly the NFL will take a lot of heat for the next one. I can't see how any doctor would clear him for more hits to the head.

I think the right thing is for Tua to hang them up, but I respect his decision either way.
Click to expand...
So say the league takes "heat", what does that look like exactly? Will they lose money? Cause if it doesn't cost them money, they aren't gonna do anything about it.
Click to expand...
I think it boils down to an image thing. That "fencing" posture is one of the worst things to see on the field. Huge hits that injure players don't resonate as much. If Tua takes another hit and goes into "fencing pose" again... There's going to be a compilation video made of him taking repeated brain injuries. That is going to be a hard watch for the consumer, and I'd expect some corporations start having conversations if they want their brand tied to be a proud sponsor of the NFL with those visuals floating around.
 
kface said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Tua’s going to want to keep playing. That’s how elite athletes are. This is where everyone around him needs to step in and tell him he can’t. At some point it becomes criminal if the team and league let him get back onto the field.
Click to expand...

It's interesting because in most states i believe it is very much illegal to keep selling liquor to someone that is intoxicated. Seems somewhat simliar that you shouldn't be able to wipe your hands of this situation because the player wants to
Click to expand...
I'm not a lawyer, but I think the reasoning behind that is largely because of what the drunk person might do to harm other people (e.g. driving).

That doesn't really apply here in the same way.
 
elmanx said:
kface said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Tua’s going to want to keep playing. That’s how elite athletes are. This is where everyone around him needs to step in and tell him he can’t. At some point it becomes criminal if the team and league let him get back onto the field.
Click to expand...

It's interesting because in most states i believe it is very much illegal to keep selling liquor to someone that is intoxicated. Seems somewhat simliar that you shouldn't be able to wipe your hands of this situation because the player wants to
Click to expand...
I'm not a lawyer, but I think the reasoning behind that is largely because of what the drunk person might do to harm other people (e.g. driving).

That doesn't really apply here in the same way.
Click to expand...

Tell that to the people Phillip Adams killed
 
Damar Hamlin made the tackle on Tua
Hamlin did not do anything wrong
Tua launched himself forward trying to pick up the FD which he had accomplished and just needed to slide
 
kface said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Tua’s going to want to keep playing. That’s how elite athletes are. This is where everyone around him needs to step in and tell him he can’t. At some point it becomes criminal if the team and league let him get back onto the field.
Click to expand...

It's interesting because in most states i believe it is very much illegal to keep selling liquor to someone that is intoxicated. Seems somewhat simliar that you shouldn't be able to wipe your hands of this situation because the player wants to
Click to expand...

It's not a perfect analogy but yeah, this is kind of how I'm feeling about it. Tua's not going to take himself off the field. At some point someone else has to do it for him. Give him all his money and let him retire.

The thing that strikes me about it is (IIRC) none of his concussions looked like they came from those huge highlight-reel hits to the head or anything. Not trying to minimize it but he seems to have gotten concussed on plays that you see QBs get up from every week. I'm not a doctor so I have no idea if there's any validity to it, but I'd be concerned that he's just so much more susceptible to them now that it would be gross negligence to let him go back out and keep taking these shots. The two in one season weren't too many, obviously. This is the third (?). How many is too many? Someone upthread mentioned Steve Young, who famously had like seven big ones back when QBs weren't as protected as they are today.
 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
kface said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Tua’s going to want to keep playing. That’s how elite athletes are. This is where everyone around him needs to step in and tell him he can’t. At some point it becomes criminal if the team and league let him get back onto the field.
Click to expand...

It's interesting because in most states i believe it is very much illegal to keep selling liquor to someone that is intoxicated. Seems somewhat simliar that you shouldn't be able to wipe your hands of this situation because the player wants to
Click to expand...

It's not a perfect analogy but yeah, this is kind of how I'm feeling about it. Tua's not going to take himself off the field. At some point someone else has to do it for him. Give him all his money and let him retire.

The thing that strikes me about it is (IIRC) none of his concussions looked like they came from those huge highlight-reel hits to the head or anything. Not trying to minimize it but he seems to have gotten concussed on plays that you see QBs get up from every week. I'm not a doctor so I have no idea if there's any validity to it, but I'd be concerned that he's just so much more susceptible to them now that it would be gross negligence to let him go back out and keep taking these shots. The two in one season weren't too many, obviously. This is the third (?). How many is too many? Someone upthread mentioned Steve Young, who famously had like seven big ones back when QBs weren't as protected as they are today.
Click to expand...

I agree, and I'm not saying one equals the other. Just pointing out that there is guidance out there for helping people make a better decision
 
an analogy can be made with boxing. Lot of fighters have an iron jaw & can take a punch without going down, but once they finally get knocked down or out they seem to be much more prone to knockdowns with a lessor punch.
 
ghostguy123 said:
Tough break for Tua and Miami. Watching that play a few times it looked fairly benign compared to most NFL plays. I had thought he hurt his neck at first, cause that really didn't look like a concussion causing play.

If he wants to keep playing, I'd have no issue with it. The negligence talk and whatnot is overblown IMO. If he was a loved one I'd prefer he didn't, but he wouldn't be the first pro athlete to play himself into lifelong issues and certainly won't be the last.

It sucks, but that's the sport. If we want the sport to exist, then prepare to deal with stuff like this.
Click to expand...
Agreed. It would be tough if Tua comes back because there’s always that fear of the next hit being what finishes him off. The irony is that a guy who had literally died on the field (and thankfully revived) is the one who delivered the hit. If he came back to play, I wouldn’t rule out Tua coming back either. Again Hamlin gave us our biggest scare and it didn’t effect the NFL’s bottom line at all. The players accept the risks and the fans who watch know how violent it can be. I don’t fault anyone who has turned away from the sport, but I can’t ever see it getting to the point where the NFL’s popularity takes a dive, even knowing what we know now about concussions and CTE and all that.
 
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I don't think the league can keep him from playing, but I think the coach can say he's not playing anymore for the Dolphins. If he really cared about him, of course.
 
If you're a neurologist that Tua goes to visit now....good chance you're one of the absolute best in the country. You're the kind of guy with nothing to prove and more money than you could ever spend.

If I'm that guy......there's ZERO chance I'm telling Tua "yes, you can play". A......I dont want to open myself to the scrutiny/legal ramifications if it goes wrong and B....(obviously more importantly) I dont want it on my conscience.

Any doctor that seems him will obviously have an obligation to look at his brain and give him a factual accounting of what he sees but they're under no obligation to tell him he should play football (or sign off on it)
 
Max Power said:
ghostguy123 said:
Max Power said:
TheDirtyWord said:
In a lot of ways, Tua is 1 of 1 as it relates to concussions and the NFL response to them. Concussions happen every week in the NFL...but for Tua after now two incidents and head injuries that have been on national TV games along with the loss of consciousness (and fencing posture), there now is a focus on his fate that feels bigger than him.

Any appearance that even suggests he's being rushed back to the field of play will be judged and debated with much more intensity than any other player.
Click to expand...
Its really a lose / lose situation for everyone if he continues to play. Its only a matter of time before the next concussion and honestly the NFL will take a lot of heat for the next one. I can't see how any doctor would clear him for more hits to the head.

I think the right thing is for Tua to hang them up, but I respect his decision either way.
Click to expand...
So say the league takes "heat", what does that look like exactly? Will they lose money? Cause if it doesn't cost them money, they aren't gonna do anything about it.
Click to expand...
I think it boils down to an image thing. That "fencing" posture is one of the worst things to see on the field. Huge hits that injure players don't resonate as much. If Tua takes another hit and goes into "fencing pose" again... There's going to be a compilation video made of him taking repeated brain injuries. That is going to be a hard watch for the consumer, and I'd expect some corporations start having conversations if they want their brand tied to be a proud sponsor of the NFL with those visuals floating around.
Click to expand...
Sponsors are lining up. Players getting injured isn't going to stop that, and players wanting to play that are healthy enough to play (whether they should or not) certainly isn't going to stop that.
The only thing the NFL can do is make it as safe as possible while still being tackle football.
I think the NFL forcing a guy out who still wants to play and is still good at football would be worse for their image IMO.
 
Nobody will associate Tua's next concussion, if he returns, with Dolphins management. Nobody will say "I can't believe the Dolphins let him play." That will fall on the League. People will say "I can't believe the NFL let him go back out."

It might technically be true that it's the Dolphins call, but the League is responsible for managing the brand and as I said in the MIA-BUF thread, I'd bet a lot of money the League has all sorts of indirect ways to influence and pressure through various backchannels.

Seeing what I saw last night affects me. I felt a touch of guilt the first time I saw Tua go down, I felt a touch more last night. That along with Seau, Steve Young, and others, is why my son won't play tackle football. The League doesn't care about whether my white suburban kid plays football, of course. The League will care if he and I stop watching though.
 
Brutal for Tua. Just brutal. Football is a rough game. The human body isnt designed to run into other humans at full speed. Knees, hands, hamstrings. Just so different of injuries then head injuries. We are at the point where he needs to start thinking 20 years down the road. Its time for conversation with friends and family that actually care for him.
 
FarFromHome said:
Brutal for Tua. Just brutal. Football is a rough game. The human body isnt designed to run into other humans at full speed. Knees, hands, hamstrings. Just so different of injuries then head injuries. We are at the point where he needs to start thinking 20 years down the road. Its time for conversation with friends and family that actually care for him.
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Faust's link indicates those conversations have taken place. Seems his mom wanted him to retire after his last concussion. Imagine how that conversation plays out now.
 
Ministry of Pain said:
Scooby1974 said:
Ministry of Pain said:
Scooby1974 said:
Ministry of Pain said:
irish eyes said:
Simply baffling he didn't slide. I guess easy to say in the moment, but when you've had concussions...just don't get it
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Hero Ball to justify the contract, ALL NIGHT LONG
He could have just slid but he started running out of the pocket, he has taken off earlier in the drive to convert a 3rd down that covered some distance
He got way too confident he could just run and pick up the FD
He actually did convert on 4th down but he should have slid

-And McDaniel called a terrible run on 3rd and 3 down 31-10 deep in Bills' territory
McDaniel deserves a good chunk of the blame tonight
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McDaniels is going to be a wreck after this. The guy loves his players. He might have a hard time living with this and coaching with a full heart.
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He should retire alongside Tua, he did this to him
Maybe Flores was right, maybe Tua doesn't belong in the NFL
Remember how Tua was being painted as a victim...I just can't remember too many NFL QBs that were a success where they have to be painted as a victim
He needs help, he needs people to surround him that care and will take hi off the field

Woody is talking about it on ESPN Sportscenter right now
Encouraging him to retire
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Yikes, thats harsh. Mike McD is the coach, not Tua's wife. The man has to coach the guys he's given. He cant sit Tua on the bench.
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I'm just sharing that Woody is talking to Scott right now on ESPN and he says Tua needs to take a large step back and talk to his family, sounds like he is writing him off for '24
Might be harsh but Miami needs to tank now the rest of the year and start over

Miami has nowhere to go without Tua, they won't win more than 4-5 games anyways
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"He (McDaniels) should retire alongside Tua, he did this to him."

THAT is what I was referring to as Harsh.

Agreed that Miami is going nowhere without Tua, they weren't likely to go too far WITH him either, but the product on the field would have been more fun to watch.

Tank for ___________, time, indeed.
 
Ray_T said:
Todem said:
Buckna said:
Sucks for Tua, hope he's okay.

Sucks for fantasy, massive hit for pretty much all Dolphins for probably a good chunk of the season.
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I would be shocked if Tua plays another down.
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I think he will play, but it will be a while and he may never be the same again.
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It'll just be "rinse and repeat" this, if he comes back. He'll look like he did at the start of the game, and when he gets hit again, he'll curl up like a wasp sprayed by poison spray...again.

He needs to get out, as hard as it may be to hear as a 26 year old dude. Go use your brain, Tua! Go make life better off the field, have a family, etc.
 
Wigglytuff's Gruff said:
It was pretty innocuous as well.

The guy just seems to be unable to protect himself. I get it's 4th down and an important play but he's still throwing himself forward into linebackers head first.

Get out with your head intact at this point. No sum of money could persuade me to carry on personally. Guys got $90mil guaranteed anyway, no need to put yourself through this.
Click to expand...
My understanding from PFT this morning is that it is guaranteed if doctors say he is unable to play and won't clear him. If he is cleared and just decides to retire then money owed from that point on is void and the Dolphins could request back a large portion of his signing bonus. Now I would think that if he decided to hang it up they would reach some agreement and let him keep the majority of the signing bonus and just take the cap hit this year and clear the rest off the books. That might be wrong but that is what they presented.
 
Hoping and praying for Tua. While I think he should consider walking away from the game, I don’t think he should be forced to. He’s a grown man and should make that decision with his family. I don’t think the Dolphins should pressure him to come back, nor do I think they should pressure him to retire. I think their medical personnel need to be honest with him and to leave the ball in his court. Regardless—I hope for the best for him.
 
massraider said:
IF he retires, he give up 124 mill.

If he is 'forced' to retire, he gets that money.

He's not retiring.
Click to expand...
You're probably right. He only retires if his family has ultimate power over this decision. He has 2 small children and is close to his parents.

He already has earned 73 million, generational wealth for most people. Spoptrac has this caveat about the $124 mill - "barring a custom settlement."

>>If he's medically cleared to return to football, but opts to retire, he will forego the remaining $124M guaranteed (barring a custom settlement).<<

x.com

x.com x.com
 
I believe Frank Wycheck got the NFL and NFLPA to agree that if a CT scan of the brain showed *this* then a player couldn't play anymore.
Idk what "this" is above. I can't recall but Wycheck had a passion for getting the league to instill this before he died.

Sorry shoddy reply but I really think some doc could come in here and know exactly what I mean and explain this so I'm hopeful that happens.

I think there is a medical test and a policy that will block him from ever playing again
 
Mac Jones will be a free agent in 2025. Could he rehabilitate his career under McDaniel? If Tua is gone, Miami would be a desirable place for someone looking for a starting job.
 
SoBeDad said:
massraider said:
IF he retires, he give up 124 mill.

If he is 'forced' to retire, he gets that money.

He's not retiring.
Click to expand...
You're probably right. He only retires if his family has ultimate power over this decision. He has 2 small children and is close to his parents.

He already has earned 73 million, generational wealth for most people. Spoptrac has this caveat about the $124 mill - "barring a custom settlement."

>>If he's medically cleared to return to football, but opts to retire, he will forego the remaining $124M guaranteed (barring a custom settlement).<<

x.com

x.com x.com
Click to expand...
Players have insurance
Idk what percent he'd get and people would probably say what company would insure him after the previous concussions but ...it's not night n day as presented
 
Just on the flip side, we've had lots of football, who is the anti-concussion poster boy at QB?

I dont minimize the impact of concussions, we know about Mike Webster and Seau but compare old football players to old boxers. Their decline is much more present and they're taking continual headshots.

That said, theres a lot we dont know, Lou Gehrig was a footbal player first, you have Mongo McMicahel and Steve Gleeson, so just because you're not punchy doesn't mean there aren't long term neurological trauma impacts but theres also not a straight line of proof

So it becomes, Tua has a freedom of choice or maybe we rethink this entire game and hoppy. Or we function with a level of risk.
 
Bri said:
SoBeDad said:
massraider said:
IF he retires, he give up 124 mill.

If he is 'forced' to retire, he gets that money.

He's not retiring.
Click to expand...
You're probably right. He only retires if his family has ultimate power over this decision. He has 2 small children and is close to his parents.

He already has earned 73 million, generational wealth for most people. Spoptrac has this caveat about the $124 mill - "barring a custom settlement."

>>If he's medically cleared to return to football, but opts to retire, he will forego the remaining $124M guaranteed (barring a custom settlement).<<

x.com

x.com x.com
Click to expand...
Players have insurance
Idk what percent he'd get and people would probably say what company would insure him after the previous concussions but ...it's not night n day as presented
Click to expand...
On Twitter, overthecap guy said Dolphins have insurance that'll pay 49 mil.
Haven't seen anything about his own personal insurance
 
Bri said:
I believe Frank Wycheck got the NFL and NFLPA to agree that if a CT scan of the brain showed *this* then a player couldn't play anymore.
Idk what "this" is above. I can't recall but Wycheck had a passion for getting the league to instill this before he died.

Sorry shoddy reply but I really think some doc could come in here and know exactly what I mean and explain this so I'm hopeful that happens.

I think there is a medical test and a policy that will block him from ever playing again
Click to expand...
I think you're referring to PET scans using Tau tracers. I'm not sure how definitive they are, but if I were Tua I'd pay for a Tau PET scan. One agent is already FDA approved. Biomarkers in CSF and blood are almost ready for prime time in TBI, they're already being used in Alzheimer's diagnosis. We were part of a multi-center study of Vietnam vets with TBI, and the findings weren't strong as far as showing an association with TBI. There are lots of variations between individuals in terms of reslience.

From Harvard, a review.

Escalation of Tau Accumulation after a Traumatic Brain Injury: Findings from Positron Emission Tomography

•Patients with a history of head trauma should be assessed for long-term sequalae associated with head injury.
•Tau deposition is associated with chronic ramifications of head trauma.
•Tau-PET has shown promise in assessing the progression of chronic symptoms and degenerative conditions associated with head trauma.

Eta: I have the wrong link above. I'll look for the correct link later.
 
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