Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
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QB Tua Tagovailoa, MIA (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Long Ball Larry
- Start date
Yes, good call. He just needs continued good health for himself and Tyreek Hill.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
On his 5th year option, Tua is a 23 million dollar cap hit. Miami (specifically McDaniel and Grier) both like Tua, so I assume he will resign. Figure his "market value" is somewhere around 35-40 mil per year (based on what the QB landscape looks like) on the normal end, and 50 mil on the high end. With his injury history and the need to create some cap space, Miami likely signs him to a 4 or 5 year 150 - 200 million dollar deal with it really being a 2 year deal with some dead money on year 3 if Tua doesn't improve (Roster bonuses etc on the contract to protect the phins and Tua if the concussions come back up etc). Grier for all of his faults has been good at creating deals that give Miami an "out" if the player craps the bed, or ways to mitigate the cap hits if the player works out and mIami needs the cap room.
They likely lower his cap hit to 10 million this year, freeing up 13 mil in cap space to help sign more guys for the 2 year "contender" window of 2024 and 2025.
2026 if Miami has won a title or not will be time for the "hard" choices. Stephen Ross wants to win and has money to burn. If he tells grier "buy me a championship" I am sure there will be a lot of signing bonus money to pay now and likely a "tear down and rebuild" in 2027 regardless of Tua and the Dolphins' fate.
They likely lower his cap hit to 10 million this year, freeing up 13 mil in cap space to help sign more guys for the 2 year "contender" window of 2024 and 2025.
2026 if Miami has won a title or not will be time for the "hard" choices. Stephen Ross wants to win and has money to burn. If he tells grier "buy me a championship" I am sure there will be a lot of signing bonus money to pay now and likely a "tear down and rebuild" in 2027 regardless of Tua and the Dolphins' fate.
Tua is a very likeable guy. I hope he and McDaniel solve some of the problems versus good teams.
>>Ok Vegas! Tua Tagovailoa hopped on the guitar with Darius Rucker & Daniel Jones was in the house supporting<<
>>Ok Vegas! Tua Tagovailoa hopped on the guitar with Darius Rucker & Daniel Jones was in the house supporting<<
I see what Ryan Clark was talking about.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Training Camp is still quite a few months off...what big event is there between now and then...oh that's right , the Draft
If they wanted to extend Tua, they could have done it already, price is just going up with each passing day IMHO
I'm 75% sure they will just extend him, maybe see what kind of trade offers might surface at the Draft.
I think Miami with all their talent on offense could draft another QB and let it ride for 2-3 years, see what happens while you have the best surrounding talent
Once they pay Tua, or if they have to give him $250M over 5 years, something around there, the dynamics of the team change almost overnight
And then there is no going back IMHO. What is the cap hit Denver must eat from Russ Wilson?
Be careful Mr Grier, seems like he is already
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Well, to be fair that's only Tua's memory of the situation. Memory is not reality, it's highly fallible. Most people would be shocked if they were able to see the reality of past situations juxtaposed against their memories of the same.Wow. I knew this has always been the talk on Flores but didn't expect Tagovailoa to be that honest.
x.com
x.com
So much of what he is saying seems "response driven". I doubt Flores, who has been incredibly magnanimous about this, including acknowledging he could have done things better, ever said to Tua "You suck."
I am sure Flores was a hard ###, a serious one, he seems to acknowledge that fact himself, but Tua, IMO is coming off as very thin skinned and shifting accountability for the outcomes of his career under Flores.
Let's also remember that Stephen Ross was actively trying to get rid of Tua for years. Both with Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady.
I am certain Tua has internalized that and vented all that past frustration on Flores rather than trying to take a well considered stance and not being a #### about it himself.
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FarFromHome
Footballguy
My opinion is that it's okay to be that old school hard nose coach. In today's world, if you are that hard nosed coach its critical to understand when it's gone past the point of helping and now is hurting. That's on the coach. In this specific relationship it started to hurt things. I'd assume it was a big reason why he doesn't coach the Dolphins anymore.
eighsse2
Footballguy
Agreed. And ideally a coach knows that different players are motivated by completely different methods. Some need to be cussed out over the tiniest imperfection, and some need to to be cheered on at every opportunity. But surely there are some stubborn coaches who only speak one language.
Chaka
Footballguy
The rumor is Flores was fired because he wouldn't tank, I forget if it was for Burrow or Lawrence but, allegedly it really ticked Ross off.
and the best hard nosed coaches do know when they are pushing it too far.
its all about knowing when to push and when not to. if a guy makes a mistake and you can see he feels really bad about it, you dont need to come down hard on the guy, hes probably beating himself up already. thats when a softer approach is needed.
tough but fair, and understanding (situationally) thats what you need if you are hard nosed. and lots of those types of coaches dont have that last part.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Not quite $35-$40M per year, more like $52M right now
Whatever, they could have extended him after year 3 for a ton less but they were scared with the concussions and didn't believe in him at the time...FTR: Mike McDaniel did
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
but not really, his final 2 seasons on a team that hasn't won a Playoff game in 23 years and stripped the team bare to start his run as Head Coach, he went 10-7/9-8 with no Hill, Waddle, Mostert or Achane...he had Waddle his rookie season.
19-15 and when he was fired Ross said we don't measure success for our head coaches by win totals.
The team has won just as many Playoff games under Mike McDaniel as they did under Flores.
Despite all the Tua fluff up and down the media, he has only started 1 Playoff game vs KC and the team scored a lonely TD in the Freezer Bowl at KC last year
We are now entering Year 5 and he's making a cool $52M per year, and so far we have really nothing to show for it as Miami fans.
And yet many love Tua and Mike
Marino played in 6 Playoff games his 1st 3 years in the NFL, 2 AFCC and a Super Bowl, everyone knew he was one of the best, you just never hear that with Tua
I defend Flores and do not doubt his story about Ross wanting to tank games for even a second but that's me, not all Miami fans think like I do, most don't
This whole sad story about Tua being the victim now 2 seasons removed entering Year 3 with Coach MM and we still haven't won a Playoff game
Not sure coddling Tua is working in terms of moving the needle in the Playoffs but I'm rooting for him to improve and make believers out of all of us.
I feel a lot of QBs could walk on to this team and have instant success right now with all the weapons.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
You forget he ran off Minkah and was also down on Jackson. He was basically an a hole and it tracks witht he way he was in New England. These were guys, mind you, who were coached by Nick Saban so it is not like they were entitled snowflakes either.
Sometimes you have to be humbled to become a good coach. See Pete Carroll.
Big Nate
Footballguy
Flores was absolutely horrible for Miami and the players. He was negative an ran them down. Good riddance.Well, to be fair that's only Tua's memory of the situation. Memory is not reality, it's highly fallible. Most people would be shocked if they were able to see the reality of past situations juxtaposed against their memories of the same.Wow. I knew this has always been the talk on Flores but didn't expect Tagovailoa to be that honest.
x.com
So much of what he is saying seems "response driven". I doubt Flores, who has been incredibly magnanimous about this, including acknowledging he could have done things better, ever said to Tua "You suck."
I am sure Flores was a hard ###, a serious one, he seems to acknowledge that fact himself, but Tua, IMO is coming off as very thin skinned and shifting accountability for the outcomes of his career under Flores.
Let's also remember that Stephen Ross was actively trying to get rid of Tua for years. Both with Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady.
I am certain Tua has internalized that and vented all that past frustration on Flores rather than trying to take a well considered stance and not being a #### about it himself.
Flores was a toxic coach, bringing negativity into the locker room. Cutting players down rather than raising them up. He was a cancer to the locker room.
Moreover Flores in his latest interview never dismissed Tua's comments as he knows there are a number of players and people in that locker room that saw it all. No love here for Flores and so glad he is gone, He set Miami back.
Big Nate
Footballguy
There is a big difference being a hard coach, pushing players and trying to get the most out of them and being a toxic, negative coach.
Imagine having a boss that cuts you down every day and says you don't belong, you aren't good, you aren't worth it. It was a toxic work environment. Flores had to go.
Big Nate
Footballguy
Don't get me started on Ross. F that guy.
Big Nate
Footballguy
This is true except the "cuss'd" part. No one needs to be degraded or spoken down to.
I've been coaching for 2 decades and agree with most of the rest. I often sit at night thinking about the different players on my team and how I can help each one and what will motivate them and how to bring out the best in them. Each player responds differently and needs to be pushed in different ways. How to challenge each player and put them in a position to be successful.
The coaches that only speak one language, especially "old school" are being moved out.
well, I'm gonna be a contrarian here.Flores was absolutely horrible for Miami and the players. He was negative an ran them down. Good riddance.Well, to be fair that's only Tua's memory of the situation. Memory is not reality, it's highly fallible. Most people would be shocked if they were able to see the reality of past situations juxtaposed against their memories of the same.Wow. I knew this has always been the talk on Flores but didn't expect Tagovailoa to be that honest.
x.com
So much of what he is saying seems "response driven". I doubt Flores, who has been incredibly magnanimous about this, including acknowledging he could have done things better, ever said to Tua "You suck."
I am sure Flores was a hard ###, a serious one, he seems to acknowledge that fact himself, but Tua, IMO is coming off as very thin skinned and shifting accountability for the outcomes of his career under Flores.
Let's also remember that Stephen Ross was actively trying to get rid of Tua for years. Both with Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady.
I am certain Tua has internalized that and vented all that past frustration on Flores rather than trying to take a well considered stance and not being a #### about it himself.
Flores was a toxic coach, bringing negativity into the locker room. Cutting players down rather than raising them up. He was a cancer to the locker room.
Moreover Flores in his latest interview never dismissed Tua's comments as he knows there are a number of players and people in that locker room that saw it all. No love here for Flores and so glad he is gone, He set Miami back.
There are two ways to motovate people who dont fall in line. There is the carrot(dangle benefits), and the stick(punish). some people respond better to the Carrot, some respond better to the stick. and as such, sometimes the A-hole coach will actually get the best out of his players. This type of coach didnt become popular for no reason. They get results, but lots of times their act will wear thin after a time.
and when you have a young talent such as Tua, its important to find a coach HE responds well to. I dont think Flores was a terrible coach I do think he wasnt suitable for the QB he was coaching. Team had a good record during his tenure so he did a lot of things right. Just not with Tua. As the priority was to develop that player that relationship (or lack of the same) ended up costing him his job. This happens all the time in pro sports.
and sometimes coaches need to learn a thing or two as well. we all do. and as a coach if he were hired again, hed probably be better for having learned this lesson.
do I think Flores is a good coach? Yes
Do I think he should have been fired? also yes.
Big Nate
Footballguy
These players, from the get go were ready to go. These weren't players who weren't "falling in line" from the start. If you dig into what was going on in MIA it was a disaster and it was getting worse each day that Flores was there.well, I'm gonna be a contrarian here.Flores was absolutely horrible for Miami and the players. He was negative an ran them down. Good riddance.Well, to be fair that's only Tua's memory of the situation. Memory is not reality, it's highly fallible. Most people would be shocked if they were able to see the reality of past situations juxtaposed against their memories of the same.Wow. I knew this has always been the talk on Flores but didn't expect Tagovailoa to be that honest.
x.com
So much of what he is saying seems "response driven". I doubt Flores, who has been incredibly magnanimous about this, including acknowledging he could have done things better, ever said to Tua "You suck."
I am sure Flores was a hard ###, a serious one, he seems to acknowledge that fact himself, but Tua, IMO is coming off as very thin skinned and shifting accountability for the outcomes of his career under Flores.
Let's also remember that Stephen Ross was actively trying to get rid of Tua for years. Both with Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady.
I am certain Tua has internalized that and vented all that past frustration on Flores rather than trying to take a well considered stance and not being a #### about it himself.
Flores was a toxic coach, bringing negativity into the locker room. Cutting players down rather than raising them up. He was a cancer to the locker room.
Moreover Flores in his latest interview never dismissed Tua's comments as he knows there are a number of players and people in that locker room that saw it all. No love here for Flores and so glad he is gone, He set Miami back.
There are two ways to motovate people who dont fall in line. There is the carrot(dangle benefits), and the stick(punish). some people respond better to the Carrot, some respond better to the stick. and as such, sometimes the A-hole coach will actually get the best out of his players. This type of coach didnt become popular for no reason. They get results, but lots of times their act will wear thin after a time.
and when you have a young talent such as Tua, its important to find a coach HE responds well to. I dont think Flores was a terrible coach I do think he wasnt suitable for the QB he was coaching. Team had a good record during his tenure so he did a lot of things right. Just not with Tua. As the priority was to develop that player that relationship (or lack of the same) ended up costing him his job. This happens all the time in pro sports.
and sometimes coaches need to learn a thing or two as well. we all do. and as a coach if he were hired again, hed probably be better for having learned this lesson.
do I think Flores is a good coach? Yes
Do I think he should have been fired? also yes.
This wasn't just with Tua but a number of players in MIA. It just happens that Tua was asked the questions and its the latest news. This was being reported by others a long time ago.
I disagree. disaster would be 5-11 or something of the like. Team won as many games as they lost. so disaster isnt the word I'd use. team played decently.These players, from the get go were ready to go. These weren't players who weren't "falling in line" from the start. If you dig into what was going on in MIA it was a disaster and it was getting worse each day that Flores was there.well, I'm gonna be a contrarian here.Flores was absolutely horrible for Miami and the players. He was negative an ran them down. Good riddance.Well, to be fair that's only Tua's memory of the situation. Memory is not reality, it's highly fallible. Most people would be shocked if they were able to see the reality of past situations juxtaposed against their memories of the same.Wow. I knew this has always been the talk on Flores but didn't expect Tagovailoa to be that honest.
x.com
So much of what he is saying seems "response driven". I doubt Flores, who has been incredibly magnanimous about this, including acknowledging he could have done things better, ever said to Tua "You suck."
I am sure Flores was a hard ###, a serious one, he seems to acknowledge that fact himself, but Tua, IMO is coming off as very thin skinned and shifting accountability for the outcomes of his career under Flores.
Let's also remember that Stephen Ross was actively trying to get rid of Tua for years. Both with Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady.
I am certain Tua has internalized that and vented all that past frustration on Flores rather than trying to take a well considered stance and not being a #### about it himself.
Flores was a toxic coach, bringing negativity into the locker room. Cutting players down rather than raising them up. He was a cancer to the locker room.
Moreover Flores in his latest interview never dismissed Tua's comments as he knows there are a number of players and people in that locker room that saw it all. No love here for Flores and so glad he is gone, He set Miami back.
There are two ways to motovate people who dont fall in line. There is the carrot(dangle benefits), and the stick(punish). some people respond better to the Carrot, some respond better to the stick. and as such, sometimes the A-hole coach will actually get the best out of his players. This type of coach didnt become popular for no reason. They get results, but lots of times their act will wear thin after a time.
and when you have a young talent such as Tua, its important to find a coach HE responds well to. I dont think Flores was a terrible coach I do think he wasnt suitable for the QB he was coaching. Team had a good record during his tenure so he did a lot of things right. Just not with Tua. As the priority was to develop that player that relationship (or lack of the same) ended up costing him his job. This happens all the time in pro sports.
and sometimes coaches need to learn a thing or two as well. we all do. and as a coach if he were hired again, hed probably be better for having learned this lesson.
do I think Flores is a good coach? Yes
Do I think he should have been fired? also yes.
Chaka
Footballguy
I know. In fact he owned them.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
You want an owner who wants to win, and lets face it, It wasn't just (and still isn't) just Flores that is/was down on Tua. Grier was in his camp as was Ross for a time. Both the move for Brady (that cost us draft picks) and the move for Watson occurred when Tua was already on the team. MOP still doesn't like Tua. However, Ia msure at some point Grier and or Ross realized that the problem wasn't the talent, it was the coaching. Flores couldn't keep coordinators either, so somehting had to come to a head. I know that they tried to get McDaniel to be their OC in Flores' final year but SF blocked the deal by making McD the OC.
need2know
Footballguy
its a big year for miami and tua. they have to win at least one playoff game and prove they can play on the road in the cold. if they cant you know some changes are coming
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
back to fantasy. i love this guy this year. so many weapons. only downside is the lack of rushing.
Todem
Footballguy
Hahaha gonna break your heart dude.
He got paid. He will promptly hurt his vagina And miss several games this season.
Let’s talk turkey and reality though about Tua the QB.
Tua the guy is a fun loving, good hearted soul. I think he is a great person.
Tua the QB vs winning teams that means against all over .500 for his career:
7-14
410/630 - 60% Comp %
4727 yards - 225 avg per game
28 TD’s - 1.33 per game
18 int - .86 per game
84.3 passer rating
0-1 in the post season
1 healthy full season completed in his career (of course he was extended now after that).
Franchise QB?
**** no.
Another year another Dolphins
Season wasted…..mark that down.
I am hopeful as always because despite Tua being our QB we have a **** ton of fire power at the skill positions and I am actually looking forward to watching this defense this season which may be a huge strength for us (it was last season until Chubb and Phillips went down).
But Tua? Sheesh…..one trick pony, can’t improvise in a league that demands it.
We ain’t going anywhere.
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
You lost me there
Ray Barboni
Footballguy
Todumb
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FarFromHome
Footballguy
Is he a pro bowl QB in all systems? Prolly not. Can he be pro bowl QB in McDaniels system with Tyreek and Waddle running routes? Yes sir. Does he have injury concerns? For sure. His concussion history is scary, but this isn't Olympic breakdancing. To quote Lucius Veras in the first Gladiator, "I like you Spaniard, I shall cheer for you."
nittanylion
Footballguy
That's a little harsh, isn't it?
Same for Goff and Purdy. There are a few QB who are greatly elevated by the players around them and the system they are in. But football is a team sport, so the best offense isn't always run by the best QB. But they still have to have some elite skills. But QBs get all the credit.
Todem
Footballguy
Pro Bowl? Who gives a
****.
Is he a Super Bowl caliber QB? Nope.
That’s the only Bowl that matters. Can he lead a team to the SB.
Odds say hell no.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
1,800/11 TD
2,650/18 TD
3,500/26 TD
4,600/29 TD
-He's gotten better each season, maybe he breaks Marino's single season passing yds mark for the Phins
5.084/48 TDs in '84
Yards I can imagine but not the passing Touchdowns, he'd be fortunate to hit 35
Can he win a Playoff game? Absolutely not but he's going to help Miami win the East and fill the stat box
I like Tua in Redraft as QB15 off the board, you gotta agree they're printing money in the double digit rounds of these Redrafts
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Tua does seems like a good target for those who like to wait on a QB. Currently going as qb15 with both Hill & Waddle to throw to.
RaidersAreOne
Footballguy
Yeah I am surprised so many people are down on him. I think there's a good chance he leads the league in passing yards.
this is true.
while the coach often takes a lot of the credit if the team wins and a lot of the blame if they dont it is rarely JUST the coach.
and in cases where ownership meddles it is hard to say what the situation truly was. sometimes the owner(or the GM) tells a coach to be hard on a player so he is.
in the end, its rarely just the Coach. the players have a say, so does the GM, the owner and the overall team culture. I hear it was a pretty dysfunctional setup with a lot of pressure to win, with the owner meddling and such, so I highly doubt all of this should be laid at the feet of the coach. He certainly was a part of this. no doubt of that but I wouldnt go blaming the coach for 100% of the issues that existed during his tenure.
he was but a medium sized cog in a large machine. certainly important, but not 100% of the equasion.
efactor
Footballguy
Sorry, but that's kind of an odd statement to make so definitively in a team sport. You could have said the same thing about Matt Stafford, Jared Goff, Jimmy Garoppolo, Joe Flacco, Matt Hasselbeck, Brad Johnson and wait for it, Nick Foles (or Carson Wentz if you prefer) and that's just the last 20 years.
AFC is tough sledding with KC and Baltimore to get past and chances are the Dolphins would have to beat them both. Tua isn't elite, but history shows you can go to the super bowl with competent QB play if the rest of your team is good.
TampaMike19
Footballguy
Right qb for the right system with the right infrastructure with the right receivers. Definitely was a good call to just wait and take him as your qb1. Plus he ran 11 yards on a carry. A slightly new wrinkle
