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QB Tua Tagovailoa, MIA (2 Viewers)

Injury prone, bad luck, low ceiling.

Has anyone noticed that Fields is looking like a franchise. QB? It would've been near impossible for Grier to have drafted Fields at 1.06 in 2021, but with QB being the premier position in the NFL it would've made sense. But Grier would've been admitting he made a mistake in 2020 drafting Tua.

 
tangfoot said:
I watched the game last night and no, Fields does not look like a franchise QB.
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PFF ranks Justin Fields top QB of Week 9

I saw the game and agree with PFF.  What's not to like? Accuracy, mobility, good decisions. That throw on the run to the left to Mooney was nice. The announcers also said that Fields seemed to be getting better.  His arrow is pointing up. A lot of teams, including SF, made a big mistake IMO. Let's revisit at the end of the year.

 
tangfoot said:
Under 60 percent completion percentage and a QBR of 54.4. Are you sure you watched the first three quarters?
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Fields was under tremendous pressure in the beginning of a 4 quarter game including the INT.

>>Justin Fields had most of his production when pushing the ball down the field, completing 9 of 16 passes traveling 10+ air yards for 225 yards and a TD (+9.6% CPOE). Fields averaged 15.7 air yards/attempt, the 2nd-most by a QB in a game this season.<<

https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1457933514419044356?t=WKns5S0xSawN0zbPv2O_kw&s=19

>>Justin Fields aired it out all night, averaging 15.6 air yards per attempt (2nd-most by any QB in a game this season).

His 7 completions on balls 15+ yards downfield are tied for the most by a Bears QB over the past 15 seasons.<<

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/1457934293112602626?t=XS71d1tfrhMlyu0TtMXWuw&s=19

 
SoBeDad said:
Is this a benching?

>>For those who have decided not to spend their day watching two 1-7 teams on TV, Fox said Tua can't grip ball well enough to throw "all the way" downfield because of swelling. He said he had no pain and wanted to play today. Fox said Dolphins hopeful about Tua Thursday vs Ravens.<<

https://twitter.com/flasportsbuzz/status/1457409092490862598?t=mTVEjseMxJkCSC9ECJqv9g&s=19
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Wise Old Owl said:
Fins season is over. They have no real reason to push him to play when he's not 100%. 
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-There's room for both here. I certainly wondered if after the miserable performance Tua had Week 9 which NOBODY defended him, none of his usual rose-colored glasses fans came out to support him that week...when he threw for 4 TDs despite 2 COSTLY interceptions vs Atlanta, some fans wanted to start getting the anointing oils for him, last week abandon ship. 

-Let's be honest, he wasn't ready to play last year off the broken hip socket and then he busted up his ribs either more than we will ever know and again no matter how you want that arc to work, it doesn't. Either he was playing hurt since about the start of the season under major duress as his owner and GM kept flirting with DeShaun Watson in childish fashion...and now that the deadline has passed, like Wise Old Owl mentions there is no reason to play him...but that doesn't mean Tua should be penciled in as the starter next year. Not sure Tua has been healthy at all since he stepped on an NFL field and may never be. 

-I worry for Tua and harken back to when Flores felt the need to tell the media pressing for Tua to play in 2020 last year..."I gotta protect him" before finally they let Tua on the field. But I am concerned he simply isn't durable enough to play the position and all of his passes are lofts likely because of the poor kid's ribs, it's almost child abuse to subject him to NFL punishment and so Miami is now moving him to the emergency role. The owner wanted Tua and had to have Tua and ordered them to Draft Tua at No 5 and that's why Grier has a job still, this is on the owner, he makes the decisions and does his due diligence if you read the press clippings. 

I think its unfair to keep picking Tua apart, I think its unfair for Miami to continue sending him on an NFL field, they should admit they made a mistake and give him the rest of the money they owe him and simply release him, put him out of his misery before he is carried off on a stretcher.or the cart. 

Free Tua 

 
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Tua Tagovailoa (finger) is questionable for Week 10 against the Ravens.

The Dolphins are reportedly planning for Jacoby Brissett to start in Week 10 so fantasy managers should find a replacement for Tua if they were counting on him. Tua was active last week but only as an emergency backup option to Brissett. He is dealing with a fractured finger that notably affects his grip strength. The Dolphins managed just 17 points versus the lowly Texans with Brissett under center in Week 9. Expectations for the offense should be kept in check again this week.

SOURCE: Cameron Wolfe on Twitter

Nov 10, 2021, 4:44 PM ET
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SoBeDad said:
PFF ranks Justin Fields top QB of Week 9

I saw the game and agree with PFF.  What's not to like? Accuracy, mobility, good decisions. That throw on the run to the left to Mooney was nice. The announcers also said that Fields seemed to be getting better.  His arrow is pointing up. A lot of teams, including SF, made a big mistake IMO. Let's revisit at the end of the year.
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He definitely had a nice 4th quarter. But he was top QB in a week where almost every other top QB played terrible. 

 
On in relief of Jacoby Brissett (knee), Tua Tagovailoa completed 8-of-13 passes for 158 yards in the Dolphins' 22-10, Week 10 win over the Ravens, adding a rushing touchdown.  

Tagovailoa's score was a fourth quarter sneak that sealed the contest. In a saga only the Dolphins could engineer, Tagovailoa (finger) was supposedly too banged up to start but not too banged up to come on in relief. Brissett got his knee twisted up early in the third quarter and that was that. Only FOX reported Brissett was cleared to re-enter the game and actually could have continued playing, but coach Brian Flores wanted to go with Tagovailoa, anyways. A huge chunk of Tagovailoa's yardage (64) came on a coverage bust to Albert Wilson, though Brissett also took advantage of a miscommunication on Isaiah Ford for his longest completion (52). Tagovailoa relied on Jaylen Waddle's courage for a well-covered 35-yard gain late in the third quarter. If Tua's finger was an issue, we certainly didn't notice it. He will undoubtedly be under center against the Jets 10 days from now. That's typically a streamer spot, but Tagovailoa's weapons are so limited he might not be the premier plug-and-play QB2 of Week 11. 

Nov 11, 2021, 11:59 PM ET
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Dolphins head coach Brian Flores said Tua Tagovailoa will start in Week 11 against the Jets. 

Tagovailoa subbed in for an injured Jacoby Brissett last week against Baltimore, completing eight of his 13 passes for 158 yards and scoring on a fourth quarter QB sneak in Miami's stunning upset victory. Apparently his injured finger is healed enough to resume starting duties for the Dolphins. Tua had played well -- and posted solid fantasy numbers -- in two games before sustaining the finger injury. He has QB2 intrigue against an absolutely hopeless New York defense. 

SOURCE: Doug Kyed on Twitter 

Nov 15, 2021, 1:02 PM ET
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Truebluey said:
I think the playcalling and offensive scheme are better for him. They are giving him plays he can succeed in. And he's starting to feel it. 
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Dink n Dunk, one of the lowest rated for passes down the field, just saying let's keep some perspective. 

He is not even taking a full 2 seconds most of the time, he has busted ribs which is why it looks like he is shot putting the ball many times. 

I don't think the play calling is any different than it was a few weeks ago, don't think he is "feeling it" except the pass rush in his face any time he wants to try and drop back to even attempt a pass over 10-15 yards. 

I worry about his ability to absorb the grind of being the NFL and it's a legitimate question right now in his short NFL career. 

 
Ministry of Pain said:
Dink n Dunk, one of the lowest rated for passes down the field, just saying let's keep some perspective. 

He is not even taking a full 2 seconds most of the time, he has busted ribs which is why it looks like he is shot putting the ball many times. 

I don't think the play calling is any different than it was a few weeks ago, don't think he is "feeling it" except the pass rush in his face any time he wants to try and drop back to even attempt a pass over 10-15 yards. 

I worry about his ability to absorb the grind of being the NFL and it's a legitimate question right now in his short NFL career. 
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Agreed, but he seems to rarely get even 1.5 seconds with this OL. Tua is very controversial among us Dolphins fans.

Only weapons are Waddle and Gesecki and no solid RB. I am in the camp of give the kid a chance, he is a good guy and is doing the best with what he has and is progressing.

I feel more optimistic with Tua than I ever did with Tannehill. Watson feels like a bigger risk (but with bigger upside) next year imo. Unsure if Watson could do much better behind this OL but I am no analyst.

 
Runnyb said:
Agreed, but he seems to rarely get even 1.5 seconds with this OL. Tua is very controversial among us Dolphins fans.

Only weapons are Waddle and Gesecki and no solid RB. I am in the camp of give the kid a chance, he is a good guy and is doing the best with what he has and is progressing.

I feel more optimistic with Tua than I ever did with Tannehill. Watson feels like a bigger risk (but with bigger upside) next year imo. Unsure if Watson could do much better behind this OL but I am no analyst.
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Fitzpatrick is proof that other QBs can function better behind that OL but I also feel Tua should be given some real slack for this pathetic excuse of an OL. 

My problem is the draft capital we would have to part with and then we also have $80m-$100M to spend in the off season, still have draft picks, wish the GM would leave but Miami is likely going to crawl back to 7-7 over the next 2 weeks. 

@NO(look terrible), @TN(look terrible right now) and then host New England Week 17/18. The Phins could potentially be 9-7 and rolling an 8-game win streak into Hard Rock last week of the season, then get crushed. 😆

 
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I think Fitz was behind a somewhat different OL, not a good one, but not this mess with two Offensive coordinators and some of these ridiculous play calls. Seems a different situation to me. I could be wrong.

I just want progress as a fins fan. I think coaching changes are needed. Sorry if I sound like a Tua defender, I see you are from Florida so I suspect you know more than I do. I just lurk the dolphins message boards.

It is ironic I hear and read the similar complaints while living in Denver about the Broncos (I am not a fan). I suspect the majority of NFL fans are unhappy about their team. Trying to be positive. Could be worse, we could be life long Lions fans.

 
I think Tua's last game as Dolphin starter could be this week vs NE.  With a good defense, the window for Miami to make a splash in the playoffs is short. I think they will be aggressive in going after Watson. The last game showed that he can make some nice throws when stepping up in the pocket, like this 45 yard pass to Waddle that traveled 55 air yards. And he can make nice accurate first read passes. But he's much less accurate making throws under pressure due to limited arm strength and he's not fast enough to buy much time in the pocket.  To be Brees-like he would need to be elite in decision making and reading defenses, which is hard for fans to ascertain, but its a rare ability. In a recent poll of 4,000+ fans over 60% voted to give Tua more weapons. But the AFC East will be super-competetive for years to come with the Bills and Patriots. Even the Jets will be improved next year as I think Wilson takes a big leap. 

 
NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the Dolphins "want to build around" QB Tua Tagovailoa rather than move on from him this offseason.

The Dolphins belief in Tua as their starter is "considered significant," according to Rapoport, with ESPN's Adam Schefter reporting the chances of Miami trading for Deshaun Watson are "greatly diminished" with HC Brian Flores gone. There's a lot of qualifiers here, as the Dolphins are a week into their coaching search and have no reason to devalue a quarterback they may be shopping this offseason. Tua hasn't come close to hitting draft expectations and his fate will ultimately be tied to Miami's next coach. Tua's downfield limitations held back the offense when healthy this year, and there are questions over his ability to hold up over a full season.

SOURCE: NFL Network

Jan 15, 2022, 11:03 AM ET
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Tua was good when he had a clean pocket. Bottom 3 without a clean pocket - he either scrambles or panics and makes bad throws. Very good in the red-zone and on 3rd down.

Surprisingly, Tua was top 3 on passes that traveled over 20 yards. But he doesn't have enough athletic ability to buy alot of time in the pocket, his oline was bad, and he needs to windup on longer passes.

So the book on Tua is simply to put pressure on him and he'll make a bad throw. 

>>Passer rating when under pressure: 27th at 55.3. Only Zach Wilson, Fields and Lawrence were worse. Burrow led the league at 92.4. Last year, Tagovailoa was also among the league’s worst QBs when facing pressure, with a passer rating of 45.6.

Passer rating with a clean pocket: 12th at 103.0, just behind Herbert at 103.4. Last season, Tagovailoa had a 99.3 rating with a clean pocket. His and Herbert’s passer ratings when they get good protection are virtually identical the past two years. But Herbert has been better when facing a pass rush (more so in 2020 than 2021) and completes more big plays (31 completions that traveled at least 20 air yards, more than twice as much as Tagovailoa).

Percentage of third down throws that become first downs: 5th at 45.5 percent (45 for 99). This was the second-most surprising stat about Tagovailoa, behind only...  Percentage of throws on 3rd and 8 or longer that become first downs: 5th at 35.8, which was surprisingly good - just ahead of Herbert.

Completion percentage inside the opponent’s 20-yard line: 2nd at 65.4. That’s one reason why the Dolphins were 12th best in the league in red zone offense, scoring touchdowns on 61.2 percent of their forays inside the other team’s 20 yard line.

Completion percentage on passes of 20 or more air yards: Third at 48.3 (14 for 29), behind only Kyler Murray and Herbert. But the Dolphins didn’t trust their offensive line enough to throw more of those types of passes.<<

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article256840522.html

 
Brent Sobleski@brentsobleski

Didn't see this earlier. Yikes.

“[Tagovailoa] can’t make every throw,” an unnamed member of Miami’s defense told Omar Kelly. “He’s only going to take us so far. I’m wasting my career here if that’s what we’re doing.”

 
Runnyb said:
Agreed, but he seems to rarely get even 1.5 seconds with this OL. Tua is very controversial among us Dolphins fans.
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Tua has really poor situational awareness at this level. He does not understand how to use and control space. The space around himself and the space around his receivers. I don't watch as much game tape as I used to, but those Alabama receivers bailed him out quite a bit at the college level.

His footwork also degrades under pressure and that's a massive red flag for a QB1. His level of touch on his passes was already questionable before he got to the NFL and now it's a much bigger concern.

McDaniel is here to infuse Shanahan's running system. So that means there appears to be some sunk cost fallacy here with Tua. It's not the kid's fault he's not Justin Herbert. That's something he can't control.

When you have flaws like this, you need to be a running threat to offset some of the harm you inflict on your own offense. He's not a playmaker and he doesn't make players around him better. In situations like this, the likely death note is that the NFL game is just moving too fast for him. It's not a crime for a QB to not to be able to process game speed at this level, but then that means the guy should be a QB2 or a QB3, not a QBOTF.

I don't see practical forward progression. McDaniel is going to have to work around what Tua can't give this team.

It's unfortunate so much chaos was created around this kid for no good damn reason at all. I don't see an Alex Smith 2nd half of the career type ending for him though, unfortunately.

 
GordonGekko said:
Tua has really poor situational awareness at this level. He does not understand how to use and control space. The space around himself and the space around his receivers. I don't watch as much game tape as I used to, but those Alabama receivers bailed him out quite a bit at the college level.

His footwork also degrades under pressure and that's a massive red flag for a QB1. His level of touch on his passes was already questionable before he got to the NFL and now it's a much bigger concern.

McDaniel is here to infuse Shanahan's running system. So that means there appears to be some sunk cost fallacy here with Tua. It's not the kid's fault he's not Justin Herbert. That's something he can't control.

When you have flaws like this, you need to be a running threat to offset some of the harm you inflict on your own offense. He's not a playmaker and he doesn't make players around him better. In situations like this, the likely death note is that the NFL game is just moving too fast for him. It's not a crime for a QB to not to be able to process game speed at this level, but then that means the guy should be a QB2 or a QB3, not a QBOTF.

I don't see practical forward progression. McDaniel is going to have to work around what Tua can't give this team.

It's unfortunate so much chaos was created around this kid for no good damn reason at all. I don't see an Alex Smith 2nd half of the career type ending for him though, unfortunately.
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I do think if Miami pours resources into the running game, a sorely lacking part of this offense almost the entire time Tua has been here, he is partly to blame because teams have no fear of his arm but if Miami can elevate into say a Top-10 running team, we know Coach M&M is going to implement Shanahan's style and approach and that means a huge commitment to the run, and that means likely limiting Tua to under 30 passes most weeks, using the strong base Defense Miami has developed, I do see some potential here for Tua to win more games but still be an avg to below avg QB. 

 
Ministry of Pain said:
I do think if Miami pours resources into the running game, a sorely lacking part of this offense almost the entire time Tua has been here, he is partly to blame because teams have no fear of his arm but if Miami can elevate into say a Top-10 running team, we know Coach M&M is going to implement Shanahan's style and approach and that means a huge commitment to the run, and that means likely limiting Tua to under 30 passes most weeks, using the strong base Defense Miami has developed, I do see some potential here for Tua to win more games but still be an avg to below avg QB. 
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So basically a younger, cheaper version of Jimmy G?

 
travdogg said:
So basically a younger, cheaper version of Jimmy G?
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If Bill Walsh ran this team as of today, he would try to trade Tua. If he couldn't, he'd likely cut him.

Tags just doesn't make players around him better. You aren't getting any splash plays. You aren't getting a guy who can create something out of nothing. You are getting a guy who creates more questions than answers.

Ross just needs to hire a smart GM and just get out of the entire way. It took years for the Knicks to hire Brock Aller, and even he is still road block often by Leon Rose, but you see the massive difference in what happens when you have someone who understands good resource management.

You can clearly see the Knicks moves made by Aller ( mostly asset accumulation) and the Knicks moves made by Leon Rose ( mostly for marketing reasons/nepotism/ego)  You can't have a power sharing situation for big decisions. Ross needs to butt out.

 
travdogg said:
So basically a younger, cheaper version of Jimmy G?
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Tua will be entering Year 3, he already makes close to $10M a season and while that's under the avg NFL Qb salary that starts, it's not like he is costing Miami $500k a season on a 3rd-4th round rRookie Deal like Wilson was for Seattle about a decade ago. 

Tua has a market value if you can believe it of over $30M a season right now on Spotrac. 1 Year from now, Miami has to either start extending Tua and pay him GOBS of MONEY or they can try and exercise a 5th year option but that doesn't always go well, Miami can slap the franchise tag for a year on top of that so they can technically mess around for another season or two without major commitment with Coach M&M tying to evaluate what they got. 

It's disturbing the Yale grad doesn't see the limitations many of us claim to see first hand. Should be interesting to see what happens Week 1 in '22. 

 
Ministry of Pain said:
Tua will be entering Year 3, he already makes close to $10M a season and while that's under the avg NFL Qb salary that starts, it's not like he is costing Miami $500k a season on a 3rd-4th round rRookie Deal like Wilson was for Seattle about a decade ago. 

Tua has a market value if you can believe it of over $30M a season right now on Spotrac. 1 Year from now, Miami has to either start extending Tua and pay him GOBS of MONEY or they can try and exercise a 5th year option but that doesn't always go well, Miami can slap the franchise tag for a year on top of that so they can technically mess around for another season or two without major commitment with Coach M&M tying to evaluate what they got. 

It's disturbing the Yale grad doesn't see the limitations many of us claim to see first hand. Should be interesting to see what happens Week 1 in '22. 
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What options does McDaniel have? He and Wes Welker and the new TE coach from SF, along with the new OC (maybe Curtis Johnson who coached Andre Johnson & Reggie Wayne at the U) will look at film before the draft to make draft and FA decisions. Maybe they draft another QB, maybe they wait until the deeper 2023 draft when they'll have more draft capital. It sounds like MM values input. We know Tua has a limited ceiling, like Garoppolo. If Tua doesn't improve, he'll be gone in 2023. 

For the most part, Grier & company have made good decisions on defense (X, Zeiler, Needham, Holland, Wilkins, Baker, Minkah), but have been poor at evaluating QB and Oline and RB. With input from MM and his coaches, I'm optimistic that Tua can be Garoppolo 2.0, or they find his replacement in 2023. 

 
SoBeDad said:
What options does McDaniel have? He and Wes Welker and the new TE coach from SF, along with the new OC (maybe Curtis Johnson who coached Andre Johnson & Reggie Wayne at the U) will look at film before the draft to make draft and FA decisions. Maybe they draft another QB, maybe they wait until the deeper 2023 draft when they'll have more draft capital. It sounds like MM values input. We know Tua has a limited ceiling, like Garoppolo. If Tua doesn't improve, he'll be gone in 2023. 

For the most part, Grier & company have made good decisions on defense (X, Zeiler, Needham, Holland, Wilkins, Baker, Minkah), but have been poor at evaluating QB and Oline and RB. With input from MM and his coaches, I'm optimistic that Tua can be Garoppolo 2.0, or they find his replacement in 2023. 
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Well, there are two sides to this. 1) yes, player evaluation is key and if you missed on the player then you can only hope to "hide" them while you search for a better one. 2) Perhaps a player needs a system that is more set to his strengths, and having crappy OCs with little imagination likely doesn't help that player (and having an O line that can't block is suicide).

Now, with all that being said, Miami's issue was not Tua. IF (big IF) Tua doesn''t get his ribs caved in playing the bills the phins likely win another game or two and make the playoffs.  If the phins o line sustained a block for more than 3 seconds we have more times for plays to develop.  If the running game was an actual threat, then maybe D lines aren't teeing off on Tua all the time.

MM Is here to deal with part 2 of the issue.  If Tua is a "better version" of Jimmy G then the phins should be just fine. If there is some real talent there that has been buried under a crappy O line then this should be his time to shine.  If he was a mistake, that should become quite apparent very soon as well.

 
The Miami Herald's Barry Jackson said there's "no doubt" Tua Tagovailoa will be the Dolphins' Week 1 starter. 

"Tua is the starter, Teddy the backup," Jackson said. "Period." Jackson is among the Miami beat writers countering a spate of online chatter last week about the Dolphins possibly giving Teddy Bridgewater a chance to start in 2022. Bridgewater, 29, said last week that signing with the Dolphins provided him a "unique opportunity." He was cagey when asked to explain his comment, prompting speculation that the team promised him a shot to usurp Tua as starter. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reported in January that the team wants "to build around" Tua rather than find an alternative under center. They're off to a good start, adding Tyreek Hill in a trade with Kansas City this month. 

RELATED: 

Teddy Bridgewater

SOURCE: Barry Jackson on Twitter 

Mar 28, 2022, 9:00 AM ET
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Speaking Wednesday, new Dolphins OC Frank Smith said the offense will not be limited vertically through the air, and Smith is "optimistic" about what he's seen from Tua Tagovailoa's arm strength.

Tagovailoa has never had the strongest arm or the best deep ball, and we don't expect that to change. Just having to ask the question and bring up the topic is enough to answer that. This isn't going to suddenly be a "let it rip" passing offense, and that's not great news for Tyreek Hill's fantasy prospects after playing with Patrick Mahomes. While Hill is still a back-end WR1, his ceiling isn't nearly what it was in Kansas City.

RELATED: 

Tyreek Hill

SOURCE: David Furones on Twitter

May 11, 2022, 3:49 PM ET
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