QB Tua Tagovailoa, MIA (2 Viewers)

[Bracie Smathers]

Chris Nowinski, Ph.D.
@ChrisNowinski1
This is a disaster. Pray for Tua. Fire the medical staffs and coaches. I predicted this and I hate that I am right. Two concussions in 5 days can kill someone. This can end careers. How are we so stupid in 2022.

LINK to vid of play

 

[Insein]

Dolphins coach Mike McDaniel has confirmed Tua Tagovailoa suffered a concussion in Week 4 but insists he was not concussed in Week 3 against the Bills.​

Asked if he could say with 100 percent certainty that Tagovailoa was not concussed vs. Buffalo, McDaniel said yes. "I have absolutely zero patience for or ever would put a player in harm's way," McDaniel said. "That's not what I'm about at all and no outcome of a game would (influence me to be irresponsible with a player's health)." They are strong words from the rookie head coach, one we have certainly liked during his short time in Miami. Meanwhile, the NFLPA is vowing to press on with an investigation and has said it will pursue "every legal option." The most likely outcome could be that it is found Miami did nothing wrong, but that the league's concussion protocols must again be updated and modernized.
SOURCE: Adam Beasley on Twitter
Sep 30, 2022, 12:11 AM ET

I mean I believe him. Younger coaches don't seem to be the meathead, rub some dirt on it types. He just got hired so it's not like his job depended on a win. If the doctors told him That passed the protocol, then how can he sit him?

I think the beef should go with the doctors and the player. There is no real sure fire way to tell what a concussion is without the players input. Not the same thing but I'm coaching youth football for the first time this year as an assistant and we had 4 kids diagnosed with concussions. 3 of them I swear it's because they told the doctor they have the symptoms. It's been 4 weeks for 2 of them and all they have to say is they still have headaches to the doctor and it's automatically another week in the protocol. Otherwise they were still dancing around and joking on the sidelines with their friends after their hits. Only one of them were we certain he had a concussion and that was the kid who wanted to keep playing. He hid it for a few plays before we finally realized, he was out of it. We had to stop him from going out there.

In the NFL with millions of dollars at stake, players are going to lie and try to cheat the system. They want to be on the field. Doctors need to get better at recognizing the symptoms instead of relying on the players ability to pass the tests.

 

[TLEF316]

They apparently already released him from the hospital and he flew back with the team (at least that's what thr dolphins tweeted last night)

Why the rush? They realize they don't have another game on Sunday, right?

Lunacy

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I didn't say anything about Tua's injury in week 3 because it would have just sounded like sour grapes after a tough loss. But the league really needs to look into what the Dolphins are doing in terms of player safety. It seems highly likely to me -- a person with no medical training who hasn't evaluated the player in question -- that this guy was seriously injured in week 3 and should not have been playing football in week 4. The game needs to move past this kind of mindset when the brain is involved.

 

[Summer Wheat]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

They apparently already released him from the hospital and he flew back with the team (at least that's what thr dolphins tweeted last night)

Why the rush? They realize they don't have another game on Sunday, right?

Lunacy

I wondered the same thing...one minute its head and neck trauma, ambulance to Univ of Cinci Level-1 Trauma Canter and that's how it was reported. Next thing you know there is a report that he is conscious and has movement in all his extremities, we were told his parents were with him. A few minutes later in the game we were told he was going to be released and travel back with the team.

Felt rushed and forced from all sides involved

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year. I definitely think Miami needs to hit pause on doing any type of extension which he would technically be due or could be done in the 2023 Off Season

 

[Summer Wheat]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year. I definitely think Miami needs to hit pause on doing any type of extension which he would technically be due or could be done in the 2023 Off Season

I agree. There is no way Dolphins can extend him giving his injury history. It might only get worse going forward.

What is worrisome is Teddy is just as frail. Everytime Teddy takes a big hit it is danger.

 

[zamboni]

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

To be fair, there are plenty of non-mobile QBs out there that aren't overly big themselves. A lot of injuries are just bad luck when you don't get the offensive line protection or if you scramble and leave yourself vulnerable. Can happen at any time to any QB.

All that said, perhaps Tua is leaving himself more vulnerable than other QBs. I'm sure some QB experts/scouts can and have weighed in on that.

 

[habsfan]

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year.

The question is, what would be the mechanism to cause or force this to happen? The system seems to be "you clear, you play". Tua might not be the sort of guy to put longer term health concerns ahead of football. I personally think in the bigger picture he needs to think about walking away while he can still walk but I seriously doubt he's had an "Andrew Luck moment" at this point.

 

[The Duff Man]

He is going to be more prone to concusssions now. I don’t think he will last in the league.

 

[JohnnyU]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year. I definitely think Miami needs to hit pause on doing any type of extension which he would technically be due or could be done in the 2023 Off Season

I agree. There is no way Dolphins can extend him giving his injury history. It might only get worse going forward.

What is worrisome is Teddy is just as frail. Everytime Teddy takes a big hit it is danger.

What is also as worrisome is that Teddy isn't very good.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year. I definitely think Miami needs to hit pause on doing any type of extension which he would technically be due or could be done in the 2023 Off Season

I agree. There is no way Dolphins can extend him giving his injury history. It might only get worse going forward.

What is worrisome is Teddy is just as frail. Everytime Teddy takes a big hit it is danger.

What is also as worrisome is that Teddy isn't very good.

He’s basically the same QB as Tua. Frail, weak armed but accurate QB with some mobility but not a dynamic runner.

 

[VikingFrog]

According to the NFL… He’s only had one concussion.

This has happened many times to QBs and other players. Heck, Higgins just came back from one in a week.

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

 

[Ministry of Pain]

According to the NFL… He’s only had one concussion.

This has happened many times to QBs and other players. Heck, Higgins just came back from one in a week.

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

Did you see the reaction he had to the hit? Looked like he had a seizure and his hands were crippled and fingers pointing in different directions, I thought he had broke his fingers or hand at first.

Scary to watch

 

[JohnnyU]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year. I definitely think Miami needs to hit pause on doing any type of extension which he would technically be due or could be done in the 2023 Off Season

I agree. There is no way Dolphins can extend him giving his injury history. It might only get worse going forward.

What is worrisome is Teddy is just as frail. Everytime Teddy takes a big hit it is danger.

What is also as worrisome is that Teddy isn't very good.

He’s basically the same QB as Tua. Frail, weak armed but accurate QB with some mobility but not a dynamic runner.

Tua looks like a lot better QB than Teddy from my side of the room.

 

[The Frankman]

The insidious thing about the whole thing was that I forgot if Tua was announced to have had a concussion Sunday, he wouldn't have been able to play yesterday. By rule the earliest you can get cleared of the protocol is five days. Thursday was Day 4...

 

[Summer Wheat]

According to the NFL… He’s only had one concussion.

This has happened many times to QBs and other players. Heck, Higgins just came back from one in a week.

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

Did you see the reaction he had to the hit? Looked like he had a seizure and his hands were crippled and fingers pointing in different directions, I thought he had broke his fingers or hand at first.

Scary to watch

Some caller on sports radio asked "Why was Tua giving gangs signs while he was down?"

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I would like to offer my hearty congratulations to all of the people who received their advanced degrees in epidemiology in 2020 and have now added a degree in neurology in the past four days!

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

According to the NFL… He’s only had one concussion.

This has happened many times to QBs and other players. Heck, Higgins just came back from one in a week.

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

Did you see the reaction he had to the hit? Looked like he had a seizure and his hands were crippled and fingers pointing in different directions, I thought he had broke his fingers or hand at first.

Scary to watch

That is called the "fencing response". It is absolutely no joke, but it is indication of a concussion, not a seizure, stroke or anything more serious.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year. I definitely think Miami needs to hit pause on doing any type of extension which he would technically be due or could be done in the 2023 Off Season

I agree. There is no way Dolphins can extend him giving his injury history. It might only get worse going forward.

What is worrisome is Teddy is just as frail. Everytime Teddy takes a big hit it is danger.

What is also as worrisome is that Teddy isn't very good.

He’s basically the same QB as Tua. Frail, weak armed but accurate QB with some mobility but not a dynamic runner.

Tua looks like a lot better QB than Teddy from my side of the room.

Ok. I think they're about the same - I like my side of the room much better.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

Is this serious?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

Is this serious?

Yes. The "/s" at the end of a post stands for "serious"

/s

 

[sho nuff]

I didn't say anything about Tua's injury in week 3 because it would have just sounded like sour grapes after a tough loss. But the league really needs to look into what the Dolphins are doing in terms of player safety. It seems highly likely to me -- a person with no medical training who hasn't evaluated the player in question -- that this guy was seriously injured in week 3 and should not have been playing football in week 4. The game needs to move past this kind of mindset when the brain is involved.

I believe the league is or an ongoing investigation should be had of the league in that way. I was incorrect earlier in a post where I thought the investigation had concluded...apparently it was ongoing (which then letting him play looks even worse). Seems he did pass protocols or whatever...but hard to believe there won't be repercussions here whether by the league or against the league as well as the dolphins.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

Is this serious?

Yes. The "/s" at the end of a post stands for "serious"

/s

I'd say that's good to know - but I doubt I see many other people use it that way.

 

[Wildcat]

They apparently already released him from the hospital and he flew back with the team (at least that's what thr dolphins tweeted last night)

Why the rush? They realize they don't have another game on Sunday, right?

Lunacy

Not lunacy. When I had a concussion, I was released same day because there wasn’t a lot they could do. Let’s assume a tier 1 trauma hospital knows what they are doing more than fantasy football fans on a message board

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

They apparently already released him from the hospital and he flew back with the team (at least that's what thr dolphins tweeted last night)

Why the rush? They realize they don't have another game on Sunday, right?

Lunacy

Not lunacy. When I had a concussion, I was released same day because there wasn’t a lot they could do. Let’s assume a tier 1 trauma hospital knows what they are doing more than fantasy football fans on a message board

If anything, they would have been predisposed to be overly cautious, knowing what a high-profile case this was, and how anything they did would be under a microscope. But generally, I would suspect that they followed their protocols, and if they said he could be discharged and fly back to Miami, that's because it was safe for him to do so

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

Is this serious?

Yes. The "/s" at the end of a post stands for "serious"

/s

I'd say that's good to know - but I doubt I see many other people use it that way.

Just joking, GB. People generally use "/s" to mean "sarcasm".

 

[TLEF316]

They apparently already released him from the hospital and he flew back with the team (at least that's what thr dolphins tweeted last night)

Why the rush? They realize they don't have another game on Sunday, right?

Lunacy

Not lunacy. When I had a concussion, I was released same day because there wasn’t a lot they could do. Let’s assume a tier 1 trauma hospital knows what they are doing more than fantasy football fans on a message board

Were you getting right on a plane? I can't imagine that's a great thing for someone with recent brain trauma to do.

It just looks really bad on top of what happened last week. Different set of doctors obviously (and the official stance is that he DIDNT have a concussion on Sunday) but the whole thing just seems (on the surface) to be really sloppy.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

What’s everyone so worried about?

/s

Is this serious?

Yes. The "/s" at the end of a post stands for "serious"

/s

I'd say that's good to know - but I doubt I see many other people use it that way.

Just joking, GB. People generally use "/s" to mean "sarcasm".

Oh - no idea on these short-hands I guess.

 

[zeeshan2]

[Josina Anderson] “I’m told #Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa “traveled back with team in a neck brace. All (initial) scans were negative, nothing broken. Will have MRI when he gets back,” per a league source. I’m sure Tagovailoa was comforted by having family at the game & at the hospital.”

 

[SoBeDad]

If Tua had been in concussion protocol

The insidious thing about the whole thing was that I forgot if Tua was announced to have had a concussion Sunday, he wouldn't have been able to play yesterday. By rule the earliest you can get cleared of the protocol is five days. Thursday was Day 4...

I thought it was 5 steps. Which might usually be 5 or more days, but could be less IIRC.

 

[Doug B]

Just thinking out loud here ...

This might be a dumb idea, but could there be something like a "Looked bad on TV" rule? Basically, someone completely unaffiliated with the teams and the league would make judgment calls on "probable concussion?" from afar, using strictly the TV coverage. Not too different from what us fans do on Twitter -- though hopefully, people with credentials like those of Dr. David Chao (for example) would be employed.

One potentially tricky part is that the people doing these judgments would have to be volunteers -- they could not have a financial relationship with the league or individual teams. Maybe it would be kind of a non-profit that could perform this service for multiple pro sports leagues, college football, etc. It would be completely electronic-information based. You wouldn't need a "concussion reviewer" at each stadium, arena, or rink. What you would need is a system -- unofficial or official -- of getting footage of a bad-looking head hit over to a remote concussion reviewer. Twitter reacts to probable concussions in near-real time -- surely 2022's information technology can be harnessed into a more formal framework?

 

[Wildcat]

They apparently already released him from the hospital and he flew back with the team (at least that's what thr dolphins tweeted last night)

Why the rush? They realize they don't have another game on Sunday, right?

Lunacy

Not lunacy. When I had a concussion, I was released same day because there wasn’t a lot they could do. Let’s assume a tier 1 trauma hospital knows what they are doing more than fantasy football fans on a message board

Were you getting right on a plane? I can't imagine that's a great thing for someone with recent brain trauma to do.

It just looks really bad on top of what happened last week. Different set of doctors obviously (and the official stance is that he DIDNT have a concussion on Sunday) but the whole thing just seems (on the surface) to be really sloppy.

They apparently already released him from the hospital and he flew back with the team (at least that's what thr dolphins tweeted last night)

Why the rush? They realize they don't have another game on Sunday, right?

Lunacy

Not lunacy. When I had a concussion, I was released same day because there wasn’t a lot they could do. Let’s assume a tier 1 trauma hospital knows what they are doing more than fantasy football fans on a message board

Were you getting right on a plane? I can't imagine that's a great thing for someone with recent brain trauma to do.

It just looks really bad on top of what happened last week. Different set of doctors obviously (and the official stance is that he DIDNT have a concussion on Sunday) but the whole thing just seems (on the surface) to be really sloppy.

Not sure if I got my point across. I would trust the doctors at the trauma center and their recommendation. If they think flying is fine, then flying is fine. I personally think the fact that he was released and is flying home is a good, positive thing. Many are so intent on trying to prove and unravel the conspiracy. Honestly we have way too much of that in today’s world. If there is something, it will come out. Until then, I’m not going to read into anything.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Just thinking out loud here ...

This might be a dumb idea, but could there be something like a "Looked bad on TV" rule? Basically, someone completely unaffiliated with the teams and the league would make judgment calls on "probable concussion?" from afar, using strictly the TV coverage. Not too different from what us fans do on Twitter -- though hopefully, people with credentials like those of Dr. David Chao (for example) would be employed.

One potentially tricky part is that the people doing these judgments would have to be volunteers -- they could not have a financial relationship with the league or individual teams. Maybe it would be kind of a non-profit that could perform this service for multiple pro sports leagues, college football, etc. It would be completely electronic-information based. You wouldn't need a "concussion reviewer" at each stadium, arena, or rink. What you would need is a system -- unofficial or official -- of getting footage of a bad-looking head hit over to a remote concussion reviewer. Twitter reacts to probable concussions in near-real time -- surely 2022's information technology can be harnessed into a more formal framework?

Isn't that what the current "spotter" system is?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Not sure if I got my point across. I would trust the doctors at the trauma center and their recommendation. If they think flying is fine, then flying is fine. I personally think the fact that he was released and is flying home is a good, positive thing. Many are so intent on trying to prove and unravel the conspiracy. Honestly we have way too much of that in today’s world. If there is something, it will come out. Until then, I’m not going to read into anything.

Yeah as "odd" as this all seems, unless people think University of Cincinnati Medical Center doctor's are totally incompetent or corrupt, then somehow this wasn't as bad as it seemed. It's hard to believe he wasn't concussed on Sunday based on what we all saw, and last night's incident was very scary looking - but somehow he seems to have survived it ok.

 

[TLEF316]

No, I got the point. Of course, the doctors that examined him during the game last week thought "he was fine" too.

Just seems very weird that the NFL...with how much they claim to value safety would settle for "fine" in a situation like this (Given how scary it looked last night).

If they really cared about the guy, it seems like it would make more sense to NOT subject him to a flight (change in pressure, possible turbulence, just general lack of comfort. Just seems like undue physical stress) for....I dont know.....maybe more than 3 hours after taking a hit like that.

Obviously not a doctor. I'm sure the good folks at the hospital in Cincy are more than competent at their jobs. But this just looks so bad all around.

 

[zamboni]

IMO if Tua hadn't stumbled around after that hit on Sunday, we might not be having this conversation. But the fact that it did happen leads the average person to (probably justifiably) think that something was wrong then - regardless of whether the team medical staff followed all the protocols and determined he could go back in. It's just a really bad look after seeing him have another scary reaction to the hit last night with his hands.

 

[Doug B]

Just thinking out loud here ...

This might be a dumb idea, but could there be something like a "Looked bad on TV" rule? Basically, someone completely unaffiliated with the teams and the league would make judgment calls on "probable concussion?" from afar, using strictly the TV coverage. Not too different from what us fans do on Twitter -- though hopefully, people with credentials like those of Dr. David Chao (for example) would be employed.

One potentially tricky part is that the people doing these judgments would have to be volunteers -- they could not have a financial relationship with the league or individual teams. Maybe it would be kind of a non-profit that could perform this service for multiple pro sports leagues, college football, etc. It would be completely electronic-information based. You wouldn't need a "concussion reviewer" at each stadium, arena, or rink. What you would need is a system -- unofficial or official -- of getting footage of a bad-looking head hit over to a remote concussion reviewer. Twitter reacts to probable concussions in near-real time -- surely 2022's information technology can be harnessed into a more formal framework?

Isn't that what the current "spotter" system is?

Two main differences:

1) The current spotters are actually at the stadiums.
2) The current spotters don't themselves make the "sit 'em" calls -- their role is limited to alerting team physicians on the sidelines to a potential head injury.

What I'm conceiving of basically takes team physicians and sideline staff out of the equation. No taking/passing sideline concussion tests. No mystery visits to the medical tent. None of that.

That's why I call it the "looked bad on TV" rule. If the league really, really, REALLY wants concussion issues curtailed, there will have to be some overcorrection -- that is, sitting the occasional player who had a bad head hit but (somehow) did not get concussed.

EDIT: Thinking about this some, ignatius ... in a formal system and especially in professional sports, you would still want spotters at the stadium. However, their role would be different -- they wouldn't be there to tag the team physicians when they see something. They would be there to upload footage** to the wider remote network of observers nationwide (or even worldwide -- who's to say a neurologist in Australia can't make a call on someone on an NFL game?).

** - which could be 99% automated so that a non-techie spotter could just press a button to upload the last 60 seconds of game footage or whatever.

 

[SwampDawg]

I keep reading there should be repercussions against the Dolphins for allowing him to play both last week and this week. But I thought the doctors doing the concussion evaluations were supposed to be independent hired by the NFL and not the team? If that is so and they cleared him why would the Dolphins be at fault? Yes you can say they could always choose to be more cautious and have held him out. But we all know what happens next right, a player is cleared by the NFL's Independent concussion doctors but the team holds them out. Player just misses some incentive and player sues saying they were cleared to play per the NFL doctors and wanted to but the team sat them to avoid paying. It has to be the players, league and teams working together and all in agreement to err on the side of caution. If all parties aren't in exact agreement then no protocol is going to work. What if the NFLPA's investigation finds that Tua lied to doctors during his evaluation? Will they out the player and recommend a fine? I know for soccer my son had to take a baseline test online to be used if needed for concussion testing. Does anyone think it past an NFL player to try and play "dumb" on that test so it is easier to pass if they had a concussion?

 

[SwampDawg]

Just thinking out loud here ...

This might be a dumb idea, but could there be something like a "Looked bad on TV" rule? Basically, someone completely unaffiliated with the teams and the league would make judgment calls on "probable concussion?" from afar, using strictly the TV coverage. Not too different from what us fans do on Twitter -- though hopefully, people with credentials like those of Dr. David Chao (for example) would be employed.

One potentially tricky part is that the people doing these judgments would have to be volunteers -- they could not have a financial relationship with the league or individual teams. Maybe it would be kind of a non-profit that could perform this service for multiple pro sports leagues, college football, etc. It would be completely electronic-information based. You wouldn't need a "concussion reviewer" at each stadium, arena, or rink. What you would need is a system -- unofficial or official -- of getting footage of a bad-looking head hit over to a remote concussion reviewer. Twitter reacts to probable concussions in near-real time -- surely 2022's information technology can be harnessed into a more formal framework?

Isn't that what the current "spotter" system is?

Two main differences:

1) The current spotters are actually at the stadiums.
2) The current spotters don't themselves make the "sit 'em" calls -- their role is limited to alerting team physicians on the sidelines to a potential head injury.

What I'm conceiving of basically takes team physicians and sideline staff out of the equation. No taking/passing sideline concussion tests. No mystery visits to the medical tent. None of that.

That's why I call it the "looked bad on TV" rule. If the league really, really, REALLY wants concussion issues curtailed, there will have to be some overcorrection -- that is, sitting the occasional player who had a bad head hit but (somehow) did not get concussed.

EDIT: Thinking about this some, ignatius ... in a formal system and especially in professional sports, you would still want spotters at the stadium. However, their role would be different -- they wouldn't be there to tag the team physicians when they see something. They would be there to upload footage** to the wider remote network of observers nationwide (or even worldwide -- who's to say a neurologist in Australia can't make a call on someone on an NFL game?).

** - which could be 99% automated so that a non-techie spotter could just press a button to upload the last 60 seconds of game footage or whatever.

I thought the doctors doing the evaluations were independent, not just the "spotters". If that isn't correct then that is the easy answer. The NFL has an independent doctor assigned to each game to evaluate head injuries. Their decision is final, no input from the team, player or team medical staff.

 

[zamboni]

I keep reading there should be repercussions against the Dolphins for allowing him to play both last week and this week. But I thought the doctors doing the concussion evaluations were supposed to be independent hired by the NFL and not the team? If that is so and they cleared him why would the Dolphins be at fault? Yes you can say they could always choose to be more cautious and have held him out. But we all know what happens next right, a player is cleared by the NFL's Independent concussion doctors but the team holds them out. Player just misses some incentive and player sues saying they were cleared to play per the NFL doctors and wanted to but the team sat them to avoid paying. It has to be the players, league and teams working together and all in agreement to err on the side of caution. If all parties aren't in exact agreement then no protocol is going to work. What if the NFLPA's investigation finds that Tua lied to doctors during his evaluation? Will they out the player and recommend a fine? I know for soccer my son had to take a baseline test online to be used if needed for concussion testing. Does anyone think it past an NFL player to try and play "dumb" on that test so it is easier to pass if they had a concussion?

In a perfect world, that's probably the case. But the reality is I'm sure teams have some influence on the process. And most football players are wired to get out there and play as long as they are permitted to - they don't want to disappoint their teammates or themselves. It's probably not the way things should be, but it's the reality.

 

[karl.Racki]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year. I definitely think Miami needs to hit pause on doing any type of extension which he would technically be due or could be done in the 2023 Off Season

I agree. There is no way Dolphins can extend him giving his injury history. It might only get worse going forward.

What is worrisome is Teddy is just as frail. Everytime Teddy takes a big hit it is danger.

What is also as worrisome is that Teddy isn't very good.

He’s basically the same QB as Tua. Frail, weak armed but accurate QB with some mobility but not a dynamic runner.

Tua looks like a lot better QB than Teddy from my side of the room.

Maybe, but I would like to see Teddy get another game and then judge. He came in pretty cold and hasn't played in a while tbh.

 

[Doug B]

I thought the doctors doing the evaluations were independent, not just the "spotters". If that isn't correct then that is the easy answer. The NFL has an independent doctor assigned to each game to evaluate head injuries. Their decision is final, no input from the team, player or team medical staff.

Going by the informative link ignatius provided, it seems unclear whether or not the evaluator for a given injury is independent of the team -- looks like a sometimes-yes-sometimes-no thing:

Using the injury video review system’s monitor and recording equipment to monitor, the ATC spotter watches and reviews network footage of the game. If the ATC spotter observes a play that may have resulted in a concussion or injury on the field, he or she will call that team’s bench area to speak with a credentialed team physician or the head athletic trainer to relay the details of the potential injury he or she observed. The spotter will confirm the player’s jersey number and the situation in which the injury may have occurred.

The ATC spotter must speak directly to the team physician, unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant, or head athletic trainer when reviewing a potential injury. They cannot relay the information to other team staff assigned to answer the bench phones.

Additionally -- I would question whether or not someone standing on a team's sideline throughout a game (even someone not in pay of the league or team) can 100% of the time reliably maintain independence. Not talking about someone "cheating" for the team -- thinking more about getting caught in the moment, believing a concussed player's pleadings that he's really OK, leaning the wrong way on a borderline call, etc.

 

[SwampDawg]

I keep reading there should be repercussions against the Dolphins for allowing him to play both last week and this week. But I thought the doctors doing the concussion evaluations were supposed to be independent hired by the NFL and not the team? If that is so and they cleared him why would the Dolphins be at fault? Yes you can say they could always choose to be more cautious and have held him out. But we all know what happens next right, a player is cleared by the NFL's Independent concussion doctors but the team holds them out. Player just misses some incentive and player sues saying they were cleared to play per the NFL doctors and wanted to but the team sat them to avoid paying. It has to be the players, league and teams working together and all in agreement to err on the side of caution. If all parties aren't in exact agreement then no protocol is going to work. What if the NFLPA's investigation finds that Tua lied to doctors during his evaluation? Will they out the player and recommend a fine? I know for soccer my son had to take a baseline test online to be used if needed for concussion testing. Does anyone think it past an NFL player to try and play "dumb" on that test so it is easier to pass if they had a concussion?

In a perfect world, that's probably the case. But the reality is I'm sure teams have some influence on the process. And most football players are wired to get out there and play as long as they are permitted to - they don't want to disappoint their teammates or themselves. It's probably not the way things should be, but it's the reality.

There are only 16 games a week, the refs are mostly lawyers, doctors, etc that they fly around the country to do games. You can't tell me they can't find 16 head specialist and fly one into each game. This very much reminds me in racing IndyCar, NHRA and F1 all have their own safety teams that include doctors, EMT's, fire fighters, equipment, etc that they transport and take to each race and respond to all accidents and need to clear drivers. Nascar for years fought that and used local EMT's and doctors becasue they "understood" each track better. The real reason was cost and they didn't want the liability.

 

[Da Guru]

I just watched the replay in slomo.

Could not have been a cleaner tackle. Physics don`t match up in the NFL. At a high rate of speed 340lbs vs 210lbs. Tossed Tua like a rag doll.

100% agree, this is why i think Tua should not be in the NFL, the same thing is going to repeat itself if and when he returns to the field. he simply doesn't have the speed like a Kyler Murray to counter his frame which is not built for the punishment.

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

He needs to step away for a while, maybe the rest of the year. I definitely think Miami needs to hit pause on doing any type of extension which he would technically be due or could be done in the 2023 Off Season

I agree. There is no way Dolphins can extend him giving his injury history. It might only get worse going forward.

What is worrisome is Teddy is just as frail. Everytime Teddy takes a big hit it is danger.

What is also as worrisome is that Teddy isn't very good.

He’s basically the same QB as Tua. Frail, weak armed but accurate QB with some mobility but not a dynamic runner.

Tua looks like a lot better QB than Teddy from my side of the room.

Maybe, but I would like to see Teddy get another game and then judge. He came in pretty cold and hasn't played in a while tbh.

Teddy is a better than average backup who can win some games. Only problem is that teddy is also brittle.

 

[timschochet]

Yesterday in the game thread I posted that I thought it was irresponsible to assume without actual evidence that Tua suffered a concussion the week before, because by doing so you were basically calling the Dolphins corrupt and liars. I argued that watching the injury last week and concluding anything based on what you saw on TV doesn’t qualify as “actual evidence”.

I thought my comments were pretty mild and logical but man was I attacked for them. Doesn’t matter I still think they’re true. Many are calling for an investigation this morning, the Union head promises to “pursue every legal option”- that’s fine, that’s all warranted. Maybe it’s true and the Dolphins really did deliberately play Russian Roulette with this dude’s brain. If they did then they deserve whatever’s coming to them. But I still find it unlikely and I think it’s irresponsible to just assume it’s true.

 

[SoBeDad]

If Tua had been in concussion protocol

The insidious thing about the whole thing was that I forgot if Tua was announced to have had a concussion Sunday, he wouldn't have been able to play yesterday. By rule the earliest you can get cleared of the protocol is five days. Thursday was Day 4...

I thought it was 5 steps. Which might usually be 5 or more days, but could be less IIRC.

The protocol has no mention of the number of days, just 5 steps. I imagine 2 steps could be done on 1 day, making it possible to return to play 4 days after a concussion. I recall a player returning on a Thursday, after a Sunday game, but I can't find it. Tua's concussion looks to be more serious than the typical concussion. He has 10 days to clear the protocol for a home game vs the NYJ, and the 7 more for the next game vs MIN. I think Miami should audition Skylar, even though Teddy made multiple good plays until the INT. I don't see Tua getting an extension.

Here are the steps:

>>The return protocol is broken down into a five-step process that includes:

1. Symptom Limited Activity
2. Aerobic Exercise
3. Football Specific Exercise
4. Club-based non-contact training
5. Full football activity/clearance

To reach "Full football activity," the final step in the return protocol, a player must be cleared by a club physician and examined by the independent Neurological Consultant assigned to the team. Only if both the team and independent physician agree can the player return to practice and game play.<<

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportskeeda.com/amp/nfl/how-long-concussion-protocol-nfl

 

[Doug B]

I keep reading there should be repercussions against the Dolphins for allowing him to play both last week and this week. But I thought the doctors doing the concussion evaluations were supposed to be independent hired by the NFL and not the team? If that is so and they cleared him why would the Dolphins be at fault? Yes you can say they could always choose to be more cautious and have held him out. But we all know what happens next right, a player is cleared by the NFL's Independent concussion doctors but the team holds them out. Player just misses some incentive and player sues saying they were cleared to play per the NFL doctors and wanted to but the team sat them to avoid paying. It has to be the players, league and teams working together and all in agreement to err on the side of caution. If all parties aren't in exact agreement then no protocol is going to work. What if the NFLPA's investigation finds that Tua lied to doctors during his evaluation? Will they out the player and recommend a fine? I know for soccer my son had to take a baseline test online to be used if needed for concussion testing. Does anyone think it past an NFL player to try and play "dumb" on that test so it is easier to pass if they had a concussion?

In a perfect world, that's probably the case. But the reality is I'm sure teams have some influence on the process. And most football players are wired to get out there and play as long as they are permitted to - they don't want to disappoint their teammates or themselves. It's probably not the way things should be, but it's the reality.

There are only 16 games a week, the refs are mostly lawyers, doctors, etc that they fly around the country to do games. You can't tell me they can't find 16 head specialist and fly one into each game. This very much reminds me in racing IndyCar, NHRA and F1 all have their own safety teams that include doctors, EMT's, fire fighters, equipment, etc that they transport and take to each race and respond to all accidents and need to clear drivers. Nascar for years fought that and used local EMT's and doctors becasue they "understood" each track better. The real reason was cost and they didn't want the liability.

Good discussion, guys -- just started a new thread on concussion protocol change proposals and such. Don't want to hijack this thread much further with non-Tua related posts.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Broken Hip Socket in late 2019, still started by Week 4-5-6 of his Rookie season when he should have been on injured reserve all year.
2021-Busted ribs Week 2, missed a few games with Brisett starting for Miami. He was never the same the first half of the season and Miami was 1-7
2022-Concussion Week 3, appears that way but nothing official so we don't want to say with certainty but then he sustains a vicious hit and concussion in Week 4

I agree that he's injury prone and he always will be, but you can't argue his grit. He's dealt with some serious injuries, and he always comes back. It's tough not to root for him. I just hope he gets good solid medical advice and clearance before playing again, whenever that is.

It's the NFL though. I'm cynical and I expect he'll be back in 2 or 3 weeks, and we'll all be praying he doesn't take a big hit.