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If it wasn't for the ankles I would be doing really well. Not overly tired and other than the quads and it bands I'm not really that sore. Even that soreness is manageable to the point that getting around isn't a problem. Lucky there's only one other person in my office so I went to work today without shoes. I physically can't get a pair of shoes on.
At mile 26, after a badly sprained ankle, knocked out a 9:14 mile. At mile 39, ran an 8:47 mile.
I have never been so happy to sweat my balls off like I was yesterday. Even as recently as last saturday I had to start my run in a long sleever and then take it off after two miles. I hate that crap.
Ran 7mi this morning with just a small coffee before heading out and I felt like complete ###. First time I've felt terrible on a fasted run. What's weird is the data for the run was fantastic - 8:42/141. My first mile skewed the HR... It was only 129 @ 8:58. I never see it that low to start off. If I exclude the first mile, the avg HR was still only 144.
How long have you been doing fasted runs?Ran 7mi this morning with just a small coffee before heading out and I felt like complete ###. First time I've felt terrible on a fasted run. What's weird is the data for the run was fantastic - 8:42/141. My first mile skewed the HR... It was only 129 @ 8:58. I never see it that low to start off. If I exclude the first mile, the avg HR was still only 144.
Off and on since beginning of April. Longest I've done is 10 miles, in humid FL of all places (as one of the best training runs of the year too).How long have you been doing fasted runs?Ran 7mi this morning with just a small coffee before heading out and I felt like complete ###. First time I've felt terrible on a fasted run. What's weird is the data for the run was fantastic - 8:42/141. My first mile skewed the HR... It was only 129 @ 8:58. I never see it that low to start off. If I exclude the first mile, the avg HR was still only 144.
Huh, so if I'm using Ned's standard for a "fasted" run then every run I do would qualify. I never go out on anything more than a cup of coffee. Hate trying to run after I eat. Interesting.Ran 7mi this morning with just a small coffee before heading out and I felt like complete ###. First time I've felt terrible on a fasted run. What's weird is the data for the run was fantastic - 8:42/141. My first mile skewed the HR... It was only 129 @ 8:58. I never see it that low to start off. If I exclude the first mile, the avg HR was still only 144.
What do you do about afternoon or evening runs? Last week I ate lunch (chicken, spinach, and tomatoes in a wrap with an apple and a yogurt) and figured I had a few hours before the rain stopped. There was a break in the rain and I didn't really want to run later in the afternoon, so I snuck out a half hour after eating lunch. I thought for sure I'd pay the price, but I was fine.Huh, so if I'm using Ned's standard for a "fasted" run then every run I do would qualify. I never go out on anything more than a cup of coffee. Hate trying to run after I eat. Interesting.Ran 7mi this morning with just a small coffee before heading out and I felt like complete ###. First time I've felt terrible on a fasted run. What's weird is the data for the run was fantastic - 8:42/141. My first mile skewed the HR... It was only 129 @ 8:58. I never see it that low to start off. If I exclude the first mile, the avg HR was still only 144.
Careful, that's what put me on the shelf for a while. My initial groin pull was minor but running on it created several different imbalance issues in the pelvic region that I am still recovering from. RICE, of course, then after it settles down you need stretching and strengthening.
Simple, I don't. I can probably count on one hand how many times I have run in the afternoon or evening. Virtually all of my runs occur first thing in the early morning (4am during the week, 7:30am on Saturday).
That's easy, give the bib to someone and have them run as your buddy. Do it all the time. I know it's stupid and I agree, the $ is paid what do they care, especially with that much advance notice but is what it is.
I've always eaten something before running. For my long runs I'd eat a PB&J or bowl of oatmeal and banana. For shorter runs it was usually a banana. Food has never bothered me while running - though I'll occasionally have to ####.What do you do about afternoon or evening runs? Last week I ate lunch (chicken, spinach, and tomatoes in a wrap with an apple and a yogurt) and figured I had a few hours before the rain stopped. There was a break in the rain and I didn't really want to run later in the afternoon, so I snuck out a half hour after eating lunch. I thought for sure I'd pay the price, but I was fine.Huh, so if I'm using Ned's standard for a "fasted" run then every run I do would qualify. I never go out on anything more than a cup of coffee. Hate trying to run after I eat. Interesting.Ran 7mi this morning with just a small coffee before heading out and I felt like complete ###. First time I've felt terrible on a fasted run. What's weird is the data for the run was fantastic - 8:42/141. My first mile skewed the HR... It was only 129 @ 8:58. I never see it that low to start off. If I exclude the first mile, the avg HR was still only 144.
I think I could pull an anyong and eat 8 chicken breasts and be fine to run. Weird. Funny how people can be so different.
Man, what a great attitude but I'm still feeling for you - sucks to have something pretty much out of your control derail your race that far in, especially after gutting it out and going and going and going for so long. You know how WS100 focused I am, so that's the part that bums me out the most for you. But what an accomplishment for you, regardless of the rest.BassNBrew said:
. Well done, brother.
I double-agree. While standing on one foot (one variation is to use the superman pose), I can tell how much everything through the ankles and into the feet is working hard to keep the balance.Foot care - this is a worry of mine, as well. I've had blister issues in both of my 50Ms, and I have to get that figured out before I have to go from running 11 hours to running for 33. Several ultra people I know have recommended Fixing Your Feet, I just ordered it on Amazon. I would agree with you on the balance exercises for ankle strength - I'm always standing on one foot and moving the other leg around, or even trying to close my eyes while on one foot. I bet I do this 3-4 times throughout the day at random times for 30-60 seconds, on top of pulling out the balance disk a couple of times a week.
Most of all,
Give me the 30 degrees. There is no shelter from the heat.Juxtatarot said:
Yeah - done this a lot in my soccer days. Better than hamstrings, but still sucks. Really not much you can do but RICE. And DON'T try to stretch it until it has healed up a good bit. Really easy to retweak and become a chronic pain in the ###. I've found that if you just give it enough time they heal up well. Keep ####### with it and it becomes a real drag. All IMO, of course.prosopis said:
Me neither. I have to have at least an hour after eating, or I'll get side stitches. On the other end of the scale, if I my intestines are also suddenly completely empty the same thing can happen.MAC_32 said:
Thanks Duck.SFBayDuck said:Man, what a great attitude but I'm still feeling for you - sucks to have something pretty much out of your control derail your race that far in, especially after gutting it out and going and going and going for so long. You know how WS100 focused I am, so that's the part that bums me out the most for you. But what an accomplishment for you, regardless of the rest.
Nutrition - did you follow your "eat anything and eat often" strategy? Any details on what you really felt worked? I know this is really individual, but curious.
Trekking poles - I've thought about getting a pair of these, but have never used. Did you practice with them a lot? Did you find they helped, until they broke anyway?
Foot care - this is a worry of mine, as well. I've had blister issues in both of my 50Ms, and I have to get that figured out before I have to go from running 11 hours to running for 33. Several ultra people I know have recommended Fixing Your Feet, I just ordered it on Amazon. I would agree with you on the balance exercises for ankle strength - I'm always standing on one foot and moving the other leg around, or even trying to close my eyes while on one foot. I bet I do this 3-4 times throughout the day at random times for 30-60 seconds, on top of pulling out the balance disk a couple of times a week.
Most of all,
Correct, HR is just a form of biofeedback that indicates intensity, not the actual variable we are interested in. The higher the intensity (as indicated by HR), the higher the proportion of glycogen to fat burned. Now what that ratio is differs for each individual, and is determined by genetics (slow twitch v fast twitch muscle ratio), diet, and training. What's most interesting to me about HR is that it "figures in" or includes other stresses on the body besides the exercise intensity itself, things like work/life stress, diet stress, stimulant stress (caffeine), liver stress (those 3 nightcaps), overtraining, illness, lack of sleep, etc. While we'd like to ignore these as runners, the body doesn't differentiate very well and the HR will typically be impacted accordingly.
and lay out my understanding:Ah, haven't read the boards for a couple of days because I have been insanely busy, and I come back to this. Could have used this yesterday when I bailed out of my scheduled 6 mile tempo run because I hit a bad patch.Or, arguably, the best of what makes us great - a desire for excellence, a willingness to push boundaries, and an uncompromising ability to persevere.Not human.Thanks for al the sweat gents. I'll post more tomorrow. Course was 20% boulder fields, 10% streams, and a bunch of mud and puddles. I sprained my ankle at mile 8-9. Got it looked at 20 miles later and it was swollen the size of a softball. Got it taped and continues on. Other ankle gave out about mile 75. Pretty much was hobbling from there. Busted one of my trekking poles that was serving as a ankle and it got ugly in a hurry. My gf has chronic back pain and her son has to check his blood sugar frequently through the day. I couldn't quit do a bum ankle. The grim reaper got me at mile 88 and handed me a black rose meaning my day was over. She said I could give it back to her next year when I finish. I did get a "visitor" award which was a rock with a plaque for reaching mile 79. To early to say, but I'm not seeing a next year…just not my type of course. I don't mind hilly, but I like runnable. For my build, less than 40% of this course is runnable.
What really sucked was that outside of the ankle, bad blisters, busting a trekking pole, and the brutal course conditions, I had an almost perfect day/night/day. Never got tired, digestive stuff and fueling was perfect, was crushing the uphill sections. Everything was just dialed in. I'll pull splits later, but I remember knocking out 9 min miles uphill around mile 25, dropping an 8x mile amongst several sub 10 min miles around mile 35-40, and a 9
LOL
I don't know what the ultra guys do, but on my last century (5:30, so not super long) I survived on ~60oz of weak gatorade, a couple packs of M&Ms, and one can of coke.LOL
None to me. I've done 15-20 mile training runs on a few GU's, Gatorade & water. The only time I've truly eaten during the run is the ultra's I've been involved with. At some point your body just gets hungry and you have to sustain it somehow which is why I'm always curious what the guys do for nutrition/hydration during an ultra. You can eat whatever you like but you really have to experiment with it to make sure you don't ingest stuff that is going to cause issues in the upcoming miles. I keep it simple as I don't want to "try" stuff during a race, salted potatoes rock, lots of banana and PBJ quarters for filler.
When I'm going to run a race of 1/2 marathon or longer I'll get up 3 hrs early (assuming I sleep to begin with) and eat lite..toast w/peanut butter & a banana to get something in my gut. Then, depending on length of race I might take a GU 1/2 hr before to get the digestive system working again so it doesn't go into shut down when you start racking up the miles.
The three hour pre-race timing is key - I'll take in some carbs before a race, along with protein and fat, to top off my glycogen stores as those three hours allow insulin levels to drop back down to levels that won't inhibit fat burning once you get moving.LOL
None to me. I've done 15-20 mile training runs on a few GU's, Gatorade & water. The only time I've truly eaten during the run is the ultra's I've been involved with. At some point your body just gets hungry and you have to sustain it somehow which is why I'm always curious what the guys do for nutrition/hydration during an ultra. You can eat whatever you like but you really have to experiment with it to make sure you don't ingest stuff that is going to cause issues in the upcoming miles. I keep it simple as I don't want to "try" stuff during a race, salted potatoes rock, lots of banana and PBJ quarters for filler.
When I'm going to run a race of 1/2 marathon or longer I'll get up 3 hrs early (assuming I sleep to begin with) and eat lite..toast w/peanut butter & a banana to get something in my gut. Then, depending on length of race I might take a GU 1/2 hr before to get the digestive system working again so it doesn't go into shut down when you start racking up the miles.
It really depends on what pace you are running at. What's the mix of fat and carbs you are using? The only reason to eat would be because it feels good or to top of the glycogen reservoir.
I thought you might come out on that side. The reasoning behind the GU right before the ultra came from an old ultra guy. It was simple the way he explained it to me so I probably won't be able to do it justice but the basic idea is that as you run long, your body focuses on keeping essential organs & muscle groups supplied with blood/oxygen/nutrients while shutting down those that body doesn't need to continue doing what you are doing (running an ultra). One of the functions that shut down early is the digestive track, especially if you head into the race as we do with a pre-race meal occurring 3 hours before. The GU is simply used to keep the digestive system viable during the early portion of the race with the thinking that at some point along the way you will be hitting aid stations or taking in nutrition you pack. It will help alleviate jump starting the digestive system from being shut down to all of a sudden having to work overtime because you just pumped a bunch of calories in at an aid station (maybe causing cramps, bloating, etc right after an aid station stop).Now how scientific that is I don't know but it worked for him and he's run more miles than I've driven so I thought I'd give it a shot. Instead of a GU (which I really don't care for) I scarfed a banana (natures equivalent) about 30-45 minutes before the start of a 20 mile long run and it seemed work as intended or at least provided no ill effects. Did the same before the 50k and I was fine, felt like it helped.The three hour pre-race timing is key - I'll take in some carbs before a race, along with protein and fat, to top off my glycogen stores as those three hours allow insulin levels to drop back down to levels that won't inhibit fat burning once you get moving.LOL
When I'm going to run a race of 1/2 marathon or longer I'll get up 3 hrs early (assuming I sleep to begin with) and eat lite..toast w/peanut butter & a banana to get something in my gut. Then, depending on length of race I might take a GU 1/2 hr before to get the digestive system working again so it doesn't go into shut down when you start racking up the miles.
Of course that GU 1/2 hour before does the exact opposite and fires up that carb-burning engine again. Now that's probably a good thing to do for a 5K, 10K, maybe even a 1/2 marathon as you're going to be relying primarily upon glycogen anyway, but for marathons and beyond I think that, metabolically anyway, it's probably not helpful. From a metabolic standpoint in trying to maximize fat burning for a longer event, I wait until I am 15-30 minutes in as insulin no longer spikes like it does when at rest.
Again, my viewpoint is highly skewed to really long events - I haven't done a race shorter than three hours in over two years, and most of them have been 6-11 hours. The fast dudes in here could speak much better than I to race-day nutrition for "normal" events.
GL with this. If it's really "just" a pulled muscle, you can probably get by without a doctor. You need ice obviously, and also no running for a while. This assumes it's a minor pull where you can run on it now, albeit with pain. Home treatment is fine for something like that. Do take time off though. Any kind of pull/sprain/tear (different terms for the same thing) is the kind of injury that can get a lot worse if you don't give it time to heal.
The bolded section is key, especially for ultras - everyone is an experiment of one, particularly with nutrition. While blood is diverted from the digestive system to the working muscles during a race, which can contribute to stomach issues many experience, it seems to me pretty unlikely that it's just going to completely shut down early in a race and not function at all once some nutrition hits the stomach. But the point is that it works for your buddy, so if he's happy with that I would never suggest he do something different. As my last race report indicated, I'm still playing around with nutrition strategies and trying to figure out what works for me. I'm planning 2-3 50Ks over the summer with the primary goal of trying nail that down.
If it were me, I would want to be doing the half marathon at about 95% or at least half of it at 95%. You're still 9+ days out where you would get the fitness gains from that run. If it's 13 miles of junk miles I don't see the point other than some possible heat acclimatization. If you are really that much faster than 2:20, I would go run your own 13 miler the day before and take most of the edge off. Then the 13 miler the next day would be on tired legs which might help you later in the marathon. That would be sort of the play on the ultra training theory where rather than doing one long run, you do back to back medium days.
Love the two bolded sections. That's the kind of stuff that inspires.
The bad news was that another runner coming up from behind stepped on my right heel, which about took me to the ground and left me staggering. I’ll leave out my initial thoughts but I quickly got back to a good place of enjoying the day and the good fortune of spending a day or two in the woods.Love the two bolded sections. That's the kind of stuff that inspires.
