Ran a 10k in June (10 Viewers)

[Ned]

Ok Ned...this was either some breakthrough (which recent HRs and paces have me contemplating whether it is)...or I was pushing too fast...

Background on yesterday's run...

Scheduled for 12 GA miles.

Nice cool 50 degree day with a light breeze keeping it nice and cool.

Slept just over 9 hours the night before (rare for me to actually be that rested).

Garmin screwed up when I got to the greenway and would not pick up the satellite. HR part was working so I used it only as an HR monitor and to keep the time. I know the greenway mileage well and its marked in a few places as well. I later reset it after loading my data and its now picking up the satellites again.

Mile 1...just getting a feel for pace...looked down and finished the first mile at 9:43 (HR was steady at 133...this is about midway of my projected recovery zone).

Miles 2-7...I was hitting the lap button when I got to the listed mile markers...so it should be pretty accurate. 9:38 average pace...HR steady from 137-141 (141 is in the lower part of my GA range...and I was hitting some hills in this area).

Miles 7-12...9:33 average 140-146 (146 is just getting to the upper range of GA...147-148 is what I try to keep it under).

Now, I did not know the paces til any mile was done really...or overall til I was back at home looking at the numbers.

My original plan (some of this being conservative backing off of McMillan which says 9:11) was to run the marathon starting at 9:25-9:30 pace and see how my HR was going. Because really, after about 14 miles...Im not sure how my body will respond to this pace.

But if my HR is going to be in GA range that long at that pace (and in low GA range...should I quit being a wimp and up my expectations? Or stay conservative and make darn well sure I don't death march the end of this thing).

Nice run!What's your max HR again? I can't quite remember, other than remembering it was a bit lower than mine (195). If you're using Pfitz's GA range, that's 70-81% mHR (136-158 for me). That's way too high IMO (well, learned from BnB). I think GA should be no higher than 75% mHR (147 for me). GA is meant to be the upper end of aerobic running, which should equate to the upper end of Zone 1, IMO. So I'd say your targets are a little high if you're, say, a 190 max or so (143 would be 75% of 190).

The sweet spot for long runs seems to be 71-73%, for me (139-143) or 135-139 for 190 mHR. You'll learn as your endurance improves, your HR will become more and more linear from start to finish. It's down right eerie watching it stay at 140 for miles on end.

RE: bolded. This is strictly from my own limited experience, so take it FWIW. I know I'm against the grain on this, but forget McMillan. He's far too agressive for first time marathoners. His calculator is assuming a highly trained runner. I think running the first half in GA range is the perfect approach for running your first marathon. There's very little upside to starting out at 80% mHR (which is the bottom end of MP in Pfitz's book) and bonking at mile 18. I know its not sexy and is a really hard temptation to ignore (I failed at this).

Play this first one very conservatively and enjoy the accomplishment. Don't get seduced into trying to chase an arbitrary time. Thats what marathons 2+ are for.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Ok Ned...this was either some breakthrough (which recent HRs and paces have me contemplating whether it is)...or I was pushing too fast...

Background on yesterday's run...

Scheduled for 12 GA miles.

Nice cool 50 degree day with a light breeze keeping it nice and cool.

Slept just over 9 hours the night before (rare for me to actually be that rested).

Garmin screwed up when I got to the greenway and would not pick up the satellite. HR part was working so I used it only as an HR monitor and to keep the time. I know the greenway mileage well and its marked in a few places as well. I later reset it after loading my data and its now picking up the satellites again.

Mile 1...just getting a feel for pace...looked down and finished the first mile at 9:43 (HR was steady at 133...this is about midway of my projected recovery zone).

Miles 2-7...I was hitting the lap button when I got to the listed mile markers...so it should be pretty accurate. 9:38 average pace...HR steady from 137-141 (141 is in the lower part of my GA range...and I was hitting some hills in this area).

Miles 7-12...9:33 average 140-146 (146 is just getting to the upper range of GA...147-148 is what I try to keep it under).

Now, I did not know the paces til any mile was done really...or overall til I was back at home looking at the numbers.

My original plan (some of this being conservative backing off of McMillan which says 9:11) was to run the marathon starting at 9:25-9:30 pace and see how my HR was going. Because really, after about 14 miles...Im not sure how my body will respond to this pace.

But if my HR is going to be in GA range that long at that pace (and in low GA range...should I quit being a wimp and up my expectations? Or stay conservative and make darn well sure I don't death march the end of this thing).

Nice run!What's your max HR again? I can't quite remember, other than remembering it was a bit lower than mine (195). If you're using Pfitz's GA range, that's 70-81% mHR (136-158 for me). That's way too high IMO (well, learned from BnB). I think GA should be no higher than 75% mHR (147 for me). GA is meant to be the upper end of aerobic running, which should equate to the upper end of Zone 1, IMO. So I'd say your targets are a little high if you're, say, a 190 max or so (143 would be 75% of 190).

The sweet spot for long runs seems to be 71-73%, for me (139-143) or 135-139 for 190 mHR. You'll learn as your endurance improves, your HR will become more and more linear from start to finish. It's down right eerie watching it stay at 140 for miles on end.

RE: bolded. This is strictly from my own limited experience, so take it FWIW. I know I'm against the grain on this, but forget McMillan. He's far too agressive for first time marathoners. His calculator is assuming a highly trained runner. I think running the first half in GA range is the perfect approach for running your first marathon. There's very little upside to starting out at 80% mHR (which is the bottom end of MP in Pfitz's book) and bonking at mile 18. I know its not sexy and is a really hard temptation to ignore (I failed at this).

Play this first one very conservatively and enjoy the accomplishment. Don't get seduced into trying to chase an arbitrary time. Thats what marathons 2+ are for.

 

[Ned]

Was gonna take a half-day vacation today so I could do my 30-miler today and my 20-miler tomorrow, but now I'm seeing 100% chance of showers and thunderstorms this afternoon, temps in the upper 60s, and winds at 20+ mph. Eff that. Next 3 days are supposed to be perfect for running (upper 40s and sunny), so I'll do the 30 tomorrow afternoon and 20 on Saturday.

One of my best friends is having his annual Halloween bash on Friday, so I was hoping to avoid having to run on Saturday, but it is what it is. Won't be my first hungover 20-miler, and I'm sure it won't be my last.

Have fun, gru. This is your first 30/20, right? I'm looking forward to hearing how this goes. This is territory most of us can only imagine.

Correct. I'm gonna take it pretty slow, so I'm not horribly worried. Probably 8:30-8:45 on the 30-miler, and then whatever my legs can muster for the 20-miler. I'm gonna try eating some real food (PB&J, pretzels, M&Ms) on the 30-miler, so that'll be the really interesting part.

GL! Pretzels sound down right horrible (dry) for running and eating. I don't know why, but I can't stop chuckling at the thought of running down the road with a full PBJ in hand. Can't wait to hear how this double turns out!

 

[Ned]

Ok Ned...this was either some breakthrough (which recent HRs and paces have me contemplating whether it is)...or I was pushing too fast...

Background on yesterday's run...

Scheduled for 12 GA miles.

Nice cool 50 degree day with a light breeze keeping it nice and cool.

Slept just over 9 hours the night before (rare for me to actually be that rested).

Garmin screwed up when I got to the greenway and would not pick up the satellite. HR part was working so I used it only as an HR monitor and to keep the time. I know the greenway mileage well and its marked in a few places as well. I later reset it after loading my data and its now picking up the satellites again.

Mile 1...just getting a feel for pace...looked down and finished the first mile at 9:43 (HR was steady at 133...this is about midway of my projected recovery zone).

Miles 2-7...I was hitting the lap button when I got to the listed mile markers...so it should be pretty accurate. 9:38 average pace...HR steady from 137-141 (141 is in the lower part of my GA range...and I was hitting some hills in this area).

Miles 7-12...9:33 average 140-146 (146 is just getting to the upper range of GA...147-148 is what I try to keep it under).

Now, I did not know the paces til any mile was done really...or overall til I was back at home looking at the numbers.

My original plan (some of this being conservative backing off of McMillan which says 9:11) was to run the marathon starting at 9:25-9:30 pace and see how my HR was going. Because really, after about 14 miles...Im not sure how my body will respond to this pace.

But if my HR is going to be in GA range that long at that pace (and in low GA range...should I quit being a wimp and up my expectations? Or stay conservative and make darn well sure I don't death march the end of this thing).

Nice run!What's your max HR again? I can't quite remember, other than remembering it was a bit lower than mine (195). If you're using Pfitz's GA range, that's 70-81% mHR (136-158 for me). That's way too high IMO (well, learned from BnB). I think GA should be no higher than 75% mHR (147 for me). GA is meant to be the upper end of aerobic running, which should equate to the upper end of Zone 1, IMO. So I'd say your targets are a little high if you're, say, a 190 max or so (143 would be 75% of 190).

The sweet spot for long runs seems to be 71-73%, for me (139-143) or 135-139 for 190 mHR. You'll learn as your endurance improves, your HR will become more and more linear from start to finish. It's down right eerie watching it stay at 140 for miles on end.

RE: bolded. This is strictly from my own limited experience, so take it FWIW. I know I'm against the grain on this, but forget McMillan. He's far too agressive for first time marathoners. His calculator is assuming a highly trained runner. I think running the first half in GA range is the perfect approach for running your first marathon. There's very little upside to starting out at 80% mHR (which is the bottom end of MP in Pfitz's book) and bonking at mile 18. I know its not sexy and is a really hard temptation to ignore (I failed at this).

Play this first one very conservatively and enjoy the accomplishment. Don't get seduced into trying to chase an arbitrary time. Thats what marathons 2+ are for.

I know I've said it before, but I still think back to you trying to get this point across to me. I still regret not really 'hearing' what you had to say. It's definitely one of those hind sight is 20/20 things.

 

[sho nuff]

Ok Ned...this was either some breakthrough (which recent HRs and paces have me contemplating whether it is)...or I was pushing too fast...

Background on yesterday's run...

Scheduled for 12 GA miles.

Nice cool 50 degree day with a light breeze keeping it nice and cool.

Slept just over 9 hours the night before (rare for me to actually be that rested).

Garmin screwed up when I got to the greenway and would not pick up the satellite. HR part was working so I used it only as an HR monitor and to keep the time. I know the greenway mileage well and its marked in a few places as well. I later reset it after loading my data and its now picking up the satellites again.

Mile 1...just getting a feel for pace...looked down and finished the first mile at 9:43 (HR was steady at 133...this is about midway of my projected recovery zone).

Miles 2-7...I was hitting the lap button when I got to the listed mile markers...so it should be pretty accurate. 9:38 average pace...HR steady from 137-141 (141 is in the lower part of my GA range...and I was hitting some hills in this area).

Miles 7-12...9:33 average 140-146 (146 is just getting to the upper range of GA...147-148 is what I try to keep it under).

Now, I did not know the paces til any mile was done really...or overall til I was back at home looking at the numbers.

My original plan (some of this being conservative backing off of McMillan which says 9:11) was to run the marathon starting at 9:25-9:30 pace and see how my HR was going. Because really, after about 14 miles...Im not sure how my body will respond to this pace.

But if my HR is going to be in GA range that long at that pace (and in low GA range...should I quit being a wimp and up my expectations? Or stay conservative and make darn well sure I don't death march the end of this thing).

Nice run!What's your max HR again? I can't quite remember, other than remembering it was a bit lower than mine (195). If you're using Pfitz's GA range, that's 70-81% mHR (136-158 for me). That's way too high IMO (well, learned from BnB). I think GA should be no higher than 75% mHR (147 for me). GA is meant to be the upper end of aerobic running, which should equate to the upper end of Zone 1, IMO. So I'd say your targets are a little high if you're, say, a 190 max or so (143 would be 75% of 190).

The sweet spot for long runs seems to be 71-73%, for me (139-143) or 135-139 for 190 mHR. You'll learn as your endurance improves, your HR will become more and more linear from start to finish. It's down right eerie watching it stay at 140 for miles on end.

RE: bolded. This is strictly from my own limited experience, so take it FWIW. I know I'm against the grain on this, but forget McMillan. He's far too agressive for first time marathoners. His calculator is assuming a highly trained runner. I think running the first half in GA range is the perfect approach for running your first marathon. There's very little upside to starting out at 80% mHR (which is the bottom end of MP in Pfitz's book) and bonking at mile 18. I know its not sexy and is a really hard temptation to ignore (I failed at this).

Play this first one very conservatively and enjoy the accomplishment. Don't get seduced into trying to chase an arbitrary time. Thats what marathons 2+ are for.

Actually I was never sure of my max and sort of backed into my HR zones based on my race results.I had since said forget that and did it with a full out 5k effort a while back.

Max at 197 based on those results which has fallen in line with me going no higher than 148 for my GA runs (and this seems consistent with a conversational pace and with other results from races and where my HR was and paces lined up with my HR for intervals and tempos and such).

And I agree...158 is too high for my GA runs as well.

I have forgotten McMillan...only used it slightly as a guide.

And I probably will still stick with that plan of around 9:30ish (depending obviously on HR).

The part I have going for me is while its not totally a flat course in Memphis...it is flatter than what I have been training on.

 

[2Young2BBald]

Was gonna take a half-day vacation today so I could do my 30-miler today and my 20-miler tomorrow, but now I'm seeing 100% chance of showers and thunderstorms this afternoon, temps in the upper 60s, and winds at 20+ mph. Eff that. Next 3 days are supposed to be perfect for running (upper 40s and sunny), so I'll do the 30 tomorrow afternoon and 20 on Saturday.

One of my best friends is having his annual Halloween bash on Friday, so I was hoping to avoid having to run on Saturday, but it is what it is. Won't be my first hungover 20-miler, and I'm sure it won't be my last.

Have fun, gru. This is your first 30/20, right? I'm looking forward to hearing how this goes. This is territory most of us can only imagine.

Correct. I'm gonna take it pretty slow, so I'm not horribly worried. Probably 8:30-8:45 on the 30-miler, and then whatever my legs can muster for the 20-miler. I'm gonna try eating some real food (PB&J, pretzels, M&Ms) on the 30-miler, so that'll be the really interesting part.

GL! Pretzels sound down right horrible (dry) for running and eating. I don't know why, but I can't stop chuckling at the thought of running down the road with a full PBJ in hand. Can't wait to hear how this double turns out!

For both of my HIMs and both 10 leg survival tri, I had pretzels late in each and they were heaven. Pairing them with some flat Coke and some M&Ms and it was just what I needed. After slamming sports drink and gels for 5+ hours, the salt and starch combo was a boost.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Was gonna take a half-day vacation today so I could do my 30-miler today and my 20-miler tomorrow, but now I'm seeing 100% chance of showers and thunderstorms this afternoon, temps in the upper 60s, and winds at 20+ mph. Eff that. Next 3 days are supposed to be perfect for running (upper 40s and sunny), so I'll do the 30 tomorrow afternoon and 20 on Saturday.

One of my best friends is having his annual Halloween bash on Friday, so I was hoping to avoid having to run on Saturday, but it is what it is. Won't be my first hungover 20-miler, and I'm sure it won't be my last.

Have fun, gru. This is your first 30/20, right? I'm looking forward to hearing how this goes. This is territory most of us can only imagine.

Correct. I'm gonna take it pretty slow, so I'm not horribly worried. Probably 8:30-8:45 on the 30-miler, and then whatever my legs can muster for the 20-miler. I'm gonna try eating some real food (PB&J, pretzels, M&Ms) on the 30-miler, so that'll be the really interesting part.

GL! Pretzels sound down right horrible (dry) for running and eating. I don't know why, but I can't stop chuckling at the thought of running down the road with a full PBJ in hand. Can't wait to hear how this double turns out!

For both of my HIMs and both 10 leg survival tri, I had pretzels late in each and they were heaven. Pairing them with some flat Coke and some M&Ms and it was just what I needed. After slamming sports drink and gels for 5+ hours, the salt and starch combo was a boost.

Flat Coke is now a standard for me at aid stations. Tough to carry on a training run, though.

 

[beer 302]

Flat Coke is now a standard for me at aid stations. Tough to carry on a training run, though.

So what's the scoop on the flat coke?

 

[2Young2BBald]

Flat Coke is now a standard for me at aid stations. Tough to carry on a training run, though.

So what's the scoop on the flat coke?

A couple of things. First, it settles the stomach. For the last 1/2 ironman I did, I used 7 gels and those can wreck havoc on the gut. The Coke made this much better. On a couple of endurance blogs and such you'll also see postings about the benefits of the sugar and the limited jolt from the caffeine. When I did the two 10 leg survival tris, is was nice to have something to get rid of the nasty lake taste after the third swim. Duck, not sure what type of hydration pack you are using, but Nathan makes a dual bladder pack that could be used for H2O or sports drink and flat Coke in the other bladder.

ETA, it looks like its touched upon in The Feedzone Cookbook along with Cake. I may have to pull this down on the Kindle.

 

[Ned]

Ok Ned...this was either some breakthrough (which recent HRs and paces have me contemplating whether it is)...or I was pushing too fast...

Background on yesterday's run...

Scheduled for 12 GA miles.

Nice cool 50 degree day with a light breeze keeping it nice and cool.

Slept just over 9 hours the night before (rare for me to actually be that rested).

Garmin screwed up when I got to the greenway and would not pick up the satellite. HR part was working so I used it only as an HR monitor and to keep the time. I know the greenway mileage well and its marked in a few places as well. I later reset it after loading my data and its now picking up the satellites again.

Mile 1...just getting a feel for pace...looked down and finished the first mile at 9:43 (HR was steady at 133...this is about midway of my projected recovery zone).

Miles 2-7...I was hitting the lap button when I got to the listed mile markers...so it should be pretty accurate. 9:38 average pace...HR steady from 137-141 (141 is in the lower part of my GA range...and I was hitting some hills in this area).

Miles 7-12...9:33 average 140-146 (146 is just getting to the upper range of GA...147-148 is what I try to keep it under).

Now, I did not know the paces til any mile was done really...or overall til I was back at home looking at the numbers.

My original plan (some of this being conservative backing off of McMillan which says 9:11) was to run the marathon starting at 9:25-9:30 pace and see how my HR was going. Because really, after about 14 miles...Im not sure how my body will respond to this pace.

But if my HR is going to be in GA range that long at that pace (and in low GA range...should I quit being a wimp and up my expectations? Or stay conservative and make darn well sure I don't death march the end of this thing).

Nice run!What's your max HR again? I can't quite remember, other than remembering it was a bit lower than mine (195). If you're using Pfitz's GA range, that's 70-81% mHR (136-158 for me). That's way too high IMO (well, learned from BnB). I think GA should be no higher than 75% mHR (147 for me). GA is meant to be the upper end of aerobic running, which should equate to the upper end of Zone 1, IMO. So I'd say your targets are a little high if you're, say, a 190 max or so (143 would be 75% of 190).

The sweet spot for long runs seems to be 71-73%, for me (139-143) or 135-139 for 190 mHR. You'll learn as your endurance improves, your HR will become more and more linear from start to finish. It's down right eerie watching it stay at 140 for miles on end.

RE: bolded. This is strictly from my own limited experience, so take it FWIW. I know I'm against the grain on this, but forget McMillan. He's far too agressive for first time marathoners. His calculator is assuming a highly trained runner. I think running the first half in GA range is the perfect approach for running your first marathon. There's very little upside to starting out at 80% mHR (which is the bottom end of MP in Pfitz's book) and bonking at mile 18. I know its not sexy and is a really hard temptation to ignore (I failed at this).

Play this first one very conservatively and enjoy the accomplishment. Don't get seduced into trying to chase an arbitrary time. Thats what marathons 2+ are for.

Actually I was never sure of my max and sort of backed into my HR zones based on my race results.I had since said forget that and did it with a full out 5k effort a while back.

Max at 197 based on those results which has fallen in line with me going no higher than 148 for my GA runs (and this seems consistent with a conversational pace and with other results from races and where my HR was and paces lined up with my HR for intervals and tempos and such).

And I agree...158 is too high for my GA runs as well.

I have forgotten McMillan...only used it slightly as a guide.

And I probably will still stick with that plan of around 9:30ish (depending obviously on HR).

The part I have going for me is while its not totally a flat course in Memphis...it is flatter than what I have been training on.

Yeah 148 for GA is good for 197. Something's weird. Aren't you doing your LT runs at like 168 or so? That's why I always assumed your mHR was lower. If so, that's too low for 197. You should be in the upper 170s with 179 being pretty much the max for LT. What did your HR look like for your HMs?

 

[sho nuff]

Pushing high 160s-lower 170s for LT runs.

Could very well be doing the LT runs a bit slower than I should.

HR for HMs...

1st half that, looking back, I could have gone faster (just was not sure how my body would handle it)...AVG 168 (low 160s after warming up the first mile or two...then 170s in the middle section...high 170s and a mile at 181 to finish)

2nd half...173...similar to the 3rd one except that I was in the 170s earlier (hillier course) and from mile 10 on I was at 180 til the last mile(again, the hills here were bad...big hill at mile 10...that had me to the point of no return...felt it coming down a bit then another hill coming across a bridge over the river to downtown Nashville)

3rd half and my PR...172 average...similar to the first though I was up in the higher 160s earlier and the middle section hover around 170 did not last as long before I was in the mid to high 170s...last two miles were 179 and 181.

4th half Id like to forget...hah...hit the mid to high 170s by mile 5 up the hills and knew right then I let it go to high too soon. One downhill section during mile 7 got me to 173...but it was all high 170s after that and holding that for so long was not working.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Flat Coke is now a standard for me at aid stations. Tough to carry on a training run, though.

So what's the scoop on the flat coke?

A couple of things. First, it settles the stomach. For the last 1/2 ironman I did, I used 7 gels and those can wreck havoc on the gut. The Coke made this much better. On a couple of endurance blogs and such you'll also see postings about the benefits of the sugar and the limited jolt from the caffeine. When I did the two 10 leg survival tris, is was nice to have something to get rid of the nasty lake taste after the third swim. Duck, not sure what type of hydration pack you are using, but Nathan makes a dual bladder pack that could be used for H2O or sports drink and flat Coke in the other bladder.

ETA, it looks like its touched upon in The Feedzone Cookbook along with Cake. I may have to pull this down on the Kindle.

Agreed. It settles my stomach and is a nice change from gels/sports drink - and it's got sugar and caffeine. I wouldn't want to fuel on high fructose corn syrup exclusively, but throwing a little in every 4-5 miles has worked well for me to date.I use a Nathan 2L hydration vest, it's got a single bladder but has worked well for me so far. Although I do like the idea of dual bladders, even if it's just sports drink in one and water in the other. Too much of any one thing after 4-5 hours gets old real quick.

 

[Ned]

Pushing high 160s-lower 170s for LT runs.Could very well be doing the LT runs a bit slower than I should.HR for HMs...1st half that, looking back, I could have gone faster (just was not sure how my body would handle it)...AVG 168 (low 160s after warming up the first mile or two...then 170s in the middle section...high 170s and a mile at 181 to finish)2nd half...173...similar to the 3rd one except that I was in the 170s earlier (hillier course) and from mile 10 on I was at 180 til the last mile(again, the hills here were bad...big hill at mile 10...that had me to the point of no return...felt it coming down a bit then another hill coming across a bridge over the river to downtown Nashville)3rd half and my PR...172 average...similar to the first though I was up in the higher 160s earlier and the middle section hover around 170 did not last as long before I was in the mid to high 170s...last two miles were 179 and 181.4th half Id like to forget...hah...hit the mid to high 170s by mile 5 up the hills and knew right then I let it go to high too soon. One downhill section during mile 7 got me to 173...but it was all high 170s after that and holding that for so long was not working.

I'd do another mHR test. You shouldn't have much of a problem holding low-mid 170s with a 197 max. Sure it'll hurt some, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker. My HM on Sunday went 172-174-175-176-176-176-177-177-178-179-179-182-183-191.

 

[beer 302]

ETA, it looks like its touched upon in The Feedzone Cookbook along with Cake. I may have to pull this down on the Kindle.

Funny, just had a bike guy recommend Skratch drinks to me. Said it's all the rage with the crew he rides with.

 

[sho nuff]

Pushing high 160s-lower 170s for LT runs.Could very well be doing the LT runs a bit slower than I should.HR for HMs...1st half that, looking back, I could have gone faster (just was not sure how my body would handle it)...AVG 168 (low 160s after warming up the first mile or two...then 170s in the middle section...high 170s and a mile at 181 to finish)2nd half...173...similar to the 3rd one except that I was in the 170s earlier (hillier course) and from mile 10 on I was at 180 til the last mile(again, the hills here were bad...big hill at mile 10...that had me to the point of no return...felt it coming down a bit then another hill coming across a bridge over the river to downtown Nashville)3rd half and my PR...172 average...similar to the first though I was up in the higher 160s earlier and the middle section hover around 170 did not last as long before I was in the mid to high 170s...last two miles were 179 and 181.4th half Id like to forget...hah...hit the mid to high 170s by mile 5 up the hills and knew right then I let it go to high too soon. One downhill section during mile 7 got me to 173...but it was all high 170s after that and holding that for so long was not working.

I'd do another mHR test. You shouldn't have much of a problem holding low-mid 170s with a 197 max. Sure it'll hurt some, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker. My HM on Sunday went 172-174-175-176-176-176-177-177-178-179-179-182-183-191.

Just read my post again...mistyped that...should have said 194...not 197.

 

[2Young2BBald]

ETA, it looks like its touched upon in The Feedzone Cookbook along with Cake. I may have to pull this down on the Kindle.

Funny, just had a bike guy recommend Skratch drinks to me. Said it's all the rage with the crew he rides with.

The book is not available on Kindle, but I did read a few preview pages on Amazon and my buy the book. The guys uses bacon in quite a few of his recipes, I like his thinking. A BLT has become my go to lunch the day before race day.

 

[Sand]

Nice 25 mile ride tonight - 2,750ft. of climbing. Included three of the bigger climbs around here. Gonna sleep well tonight!

 

[tri-man 47]

Nice 25 mile ride tonight - 2,750ft. of climbing. Included three of the bigger climbs around here. Gonna sleep well tonight!

 

[gruecd]

2Young - You must love staying at Radissons, no??

 

[Ned]

Pushing high 160s-lower 170s for LT runs.Could very well be doing the LT runs a bit slower than I should.HR for HMs...1st half that, looking back, I could have gone faster (just was not sure how my body would handle it)...AVG 168 (low 160s after warming up the first mile or two...then 170s in the middle section...high 170s and a mile at 181 to finish)2nd half...173...similar to the 3rd one except that I was in the 170s earlier (hillier course) and from mile 10 on I was at 180 til the last mile(again, the hills here were bad...big hill at mile 10...that had me to the point of no return...felt it coming down a bit then another hill coming across a bridge over the river to downtown Nashville)3rd half and my PR...172 average...similar to the first though I was up in the higher 160s earlier and the middle section hover around 170 did not last as long before I was in the mid to high 170s...last two miles were 179 and 181.4th half Id like to forget...hah...hit the mid to high 170s by mile 5 up the hills and knew right then I let it go to high too soon. One downhill section during mile 7 got me to 173...but it was all high 170s after that and holding that for so long was not working.

I'd do another mHR test. You shouldn't have much of a problem holding low-mid 170s with a 197 max. Sure it'll hurt some, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker. My HM on Sunday went 172-174-175-176-176-176-177-177-178-179-179-182-183-191.

Just read my post again...mistyped that...should have said 194...not 197.

That doesn't make a big difference. You should be able to hold 170s just fine in a HM with a 194 max. The below are all the max HRs for the given run type based on what I've learned. YMMV, but it should be pretty close.

mHR  Recovery  MLR/LR  GA   LT197  133       144     148  179194  131       142     146  176

 

[Ned]

2Young - You must love staying at Radissons, no??

I'd stay there if she was there.

 

[BassNBrew]

2Young - You must love staying at Radissons, no??

That's pretty mean gru.Wouldn't surprise me if 2young kicked kneed punched headbutted you in the nads next time he sees you.

 

[2Young2BBald]

2Young - You must love staying at Radissons, no??

That's pretty mean gru.Wouldn't surprise me if 2young kicked kneed punched headbutted you in the nads next time he sees you.

In before the "only if he had a step stool comment"

 

[Sand]

2Young - You must love staying at Radissons, no??

That's pretty mean gru.Wouldn't surprise me if 2young kicked kneed punched headbutted you in the nads next time he sees you.

In before the "only if he had a step stool comment"

Well in that case - wouldn't surprise me if 2young kicked kneed punched headbutted you in the nads next time he sees you.

 

[MAC_32]

Ooooh, today's run was a good one. Calf is still a little tight, but not any worse and in fact I think it's better than it was either of the last 2 days. HR stayed under 140 for the entire hour and a half and I upped the mileage to 10.5!

In the midst of hour 3 of 4 before I do the hard 12 min run, sooo hungry...and this just in - coconut water is not edible. Holy crap I have never had something so awful. Untaste, UNTASTE NOW!

 

[IvanKaramazov]

My chest cold has actually gotten worse, not better, over the past few days, so I finally decided it was time to see the doctor. Sure enough, it's pneumonia. Resting pulse: 101. Oxygen level: 89%. According to my doctor (a family friend and one of our tailgating buddies), it's technically walking pneumonia because I managed to walk in, but if it was any worse it would be collapsing-on-the-ground pneumonia. The good news is that a course of antibiotics should clear it up in a few days, so hopefully I can start running again next week.

 

[beer 302]

Ooooh, today's run was a good one. Calf is still a little tight, but not any worse and in fact I think it's better than it was either of the last 2 days. HR stayed under 140 for the entire hour and a half and I upped the mileage to 10.5! In the midst of hour 3 of 4 before I do the hard 12 min run, sooo hungry...and this just in - coconut water is not edible. Holy crap I have never had something so awful. Untaste, UNTASTE NOW!

Good to hear the calf is better sorta. I was just reading they did some kind of trial like this up in Raleigh related to the 1/2 marathon coming up, 55 runners signed up. Coconut water, noted

My chest cold has actually gotten worse, not better, over the past few days, so I finally decided it was time to see the doctor. Sure enough, it's pneumonia. Resting pulse: 101. Oxygen level: 89%. According to my doctor (a family friend and one of our tailgating buddies), it's talking walking pneumonia because I managed to walk in, but if it was any worse it would be collapsing-on-the-ground pneumonia. The good news is that a course of antibiotics should clear it up in a few days, so hopefully I can start running again next week.

Wow, that blows man but good you got in to get it checked. My wife has terrible respiratory problems, either ends up with bronchitis or pneumonia every year, soon as it starts getting cold so I know what you're going through. Especially with pneumonia, it takes a while to get back on your feet so don't rush it. Also, once you get it, you become more susceptible to getting it in the future so don't #### around with it if you feel like you are coming down with something again.Wife just got a pneumonia shot Tuesday, her arm felt like it was on fire Wednesday and she developed a red rash on her arm. By the time I got home she was hurting pretty good so we spent 3 hours at the urgent care getting pills. She's much better now, almost fully recovered from the steroid regiment she got put on but she has no luck when it comes to this stuff. She's the 1% of people that the side effects pertain to. She was supposed to get a flu shot this week as well, she cancelled that. FML

 

[sho nuff]

18/14 today...and a very successful run.

Have not had a chance to pull the data yet as I had to pick up my daughter and am just taking a small break before getting stuff packed up for a cub scout camping night (thankfully, I don't have to do the camping...just the set up).

Hilly part of the greenway for the GA miles to start went smooth...kept it on the low end of the GA and around 9:55/mile with the rolling hills.

Hit the flats and everything felt great. Miles rolling off between 9:10 and 9:20...with quite a few instances of being under 9/mile with the HR still hovering just a tiny bit above GA range. Those portions were mostly while following a young woman in some very tight shorts...great butt, great legs...and you know you are a real runner when I noticed all that...and still noticed that she had a damn nice stride and was close to a forefoot striker in some Newtons. Kind of went back and forth passing each other a few times before she peeled off to a parking lot.

Got back to the rolling hills and realized how much I loved the flat running today. Between just being the last 4 miles of the pace run and the rollers the pace came down a bit and the HR was going up. Still went very well and I was quite happy with today's run. Excited to see the data later tonight.

 

[gruecd]

30-miler went pretty well. First loop was about 10 miles. GU at 30 and 60 minutes. When I got back to the house, ate a half of a PB&J and drank a can of flat Diet Pepsi. Re-filled my handheld with Gatorade, used the bathroom and back out. Next loop was about 11 miles. Again, GU at 30 and 60 minutes. Got back, ate the other half of the sandwich and a snack pack of Peanut M&Ms. Drank another soda, took a couple of salt tabs, re-filled bottle, and back out. Last 9-mile loop, GU again at 30 and 60 minutes. Total 4:21:59 for 30.02 miles, or 8:44/mile.

Halloween party tonight, and then another 20-miler tomorrow. Oughtta be interesting...

 

[prosopis]

I have started training for my next half in December. I am using same plan but I have changed the numbers using McMillan's calculator to hopefully be sub 2 hrs in December.

I hit a new milestone and PB for me today. I did 5 miles at 8:42 pace.

It was 85 out when I did this and I was pretty uncomfortable. Legs are also still tired from Sunday?

Anyway for the first time I ran 5 miles at sub 9:00 pace I can hardly believe it.

 

[tri-man 47]

IK - hopefully you can heal up quickly.

gruecd - great job! Good luck tomorrow.

prosopis - fantastic!!! Great progress for you this year!

 

[beer 302]

I have started training for my next half in December. I am using same plan but I have changed the numbers using McMillan's calculator to hopefully be sub 2 hrs in December.

I hit a new milestone and PB for me today. I did 5 miles at 8:42 pace.

It was 85 out when I did this and I was pretty uncomfortable. Legs are also still tired from Sunday?

Anyway for the first time I ran 5 miles at sub 9:00 pace I can hardly believe it.

Nice job man!!! Funny how you hit a milestone and are all proud like then immediately start thinking, if I can do 5 at that pace, what about 6? Keep pushing man, I'm right there with you.Good week of prep for me, happy with all my runs except today's. Just couldn't get my mind made up on what I wanted to run, fast/slow/pace/sprint so it ended up being a hodge-podge but it was time on my feet hitting hills.

MON - 4 miles @ 9:24 pace. Hit the hills behind the house and felt really good. Didn't really intend to run at this pace but it felt good and the hills didn't seem to be putting up their usual fight so it worked out.

TUE - 8 miles @ 9:18 pace. Worked in a monster hill to try and simulate some of the climbs in the upcoming half and kicked it's ###. Followed it with a couple of hills that beat me like a step child this summer and kicked their ### too. beer - 2, hills - 0 so far.

WED - 3 miles @ 10:00 pace. Junk miles, just working out the kinks before hitting the gym

THU - 10 miles @ 9:09 pace. Flatter course overall but from start to finish there is a good drop and climb back home. Busted it going out because I knew I would give back on the way home but (which I did) but overall was very happy with this run. It's the pace I would like to run at the half but I don't know if I can hold it for that long on those hills. beer - 3, hills - 0

FRI - 4 miles @ 10:10 pace. Junk miles again, just putting in time.

SAT - 13.1 miles @ 10:04 pace. As I said above, just never settled into a good spot for this run. The two long runs during the week felt great, this one, nada. The only part that felt really good for the whole 13 miles was the last one and I sprinted it. . .uphill. . .into a Sandy headwind for a 9:26 mile so that made me feel better.

 

[sho nuff]

Just the follow up on yesterday's run.

Miles 1-4 9:41-9:56...HR going from 140-145 (and not sure it would have even averaged 145 on the last mile if not for the pretty nice hill there). Smooth as silk.

Then the pace miles started...after the first mile you can tell I get into the flatter areas.

9:08/151

9:08/148

9:03/152

9:06/153

9:15/151

9:09/151

9:17/151

9:07/154

9:03/153

9:17/160 (big hill back over the bridge crossing the river)

9:16/155 (back into the rolling hills the last several miles)

9:13/155

9:31/157

9:27/155

Just such a big difference in getting to that flatter area of the run...those rollers do get to me and its definitely the thing in all races I need to be wary of.

 

[beer 302]

Just such a big difference in getting to that flatter area of the run...those rollers do get to me and its definitely the thing in all races I need to be wary of.

Amen, why I've been concentrating on hitting hills hard the last month or so. I'm convinced there isn't more than a 1/4 mile stretch of flat land in North or South Carolina so running races pretty much mean you will deal with hills. Don't like them but can't avoid them either. I'd love to have a shot at some flat land just to see where I would be.

 

[sho nuff]

Just such a big difference in getting to that flatter area of the run...those rollers do get to me and its definitely the thing in all races I need to be wary of.

Amen, why I've been concentrating on hitting hills hard the last month or so. I'm convinced there isn't more than a 1/4 mile stretch of flat land in North or South Carolina so running races pretty much mean you will deal with hills. Don't like them but can't avoid them either. I'd love to have a shot at some flat land just to see where I would be.

For the most part...my training runs are always on these rollers.This is the first time I crossed the bridge over to the flats during a training run (my PR half was mostly on those flat sections I ran yesterday).The good of this is that I do feel prepared for a lot of the hills in most races...and some of the races (like the one on the flatter section, the one in Murfreesboro I have run...and Memphis to an extent)...these other races are a bit flatter courses and I should see the benefits for the little bit of hills there are.

 

[gruecd]

8 beers last night, 8 hours of sleep, and then 20 faster-than-expected miles this morning at 8:41/mile. Last couple of miles today in the low 8's. Feeling really good going into JFK in 3 weeks!

 

[MAC_32]

Feeling great today. Zero ill effects from yesterday's twelve. Wasn't planning on anything tomorrow, but may go out for an easy five.

 

[tri-man 47]

Great training, guys! I drove up to Milwaukee area to cheer on my university's cross country teams in their conference meet this a.m. It's fun to give them some support (other than the mom of one of the girls, I was the only fan out there).

BTW, 2Young's son continues to rip off massive PRs ...

 

[beer 302]

Great training, guys! I drove up to Milwaukee area to cheer on my university's cross country teams in their conference meet this a.m. It's fun to give them some support (other than the mom of one of the girls, I was the only fan out there).

BTW, 2Young's son continues to rip off massive PRs ...

Saw that, he's dropped 2 minutes in about month seems like.Am I the only one that imagines grue like this?

 

[2Young2BBald]

Great training, guys! I drove up to Milwaukee area to cheer on my university's cross country teams in their conference meet this a.m. It's fun to give them some support (other than the mom of one of the girls, I was the only fan out there).BTW, 2Young's son continues to rip off massive PRs ...

Thanks TM and thanks to Sand for the comment on FB!! Yesterday was amazing to see. We planned out mile splits again and I was at each mile marker shouting out splits and where he stood in terms of breaking the 19 minute mark. His first mile was 6:01 and he had to fight a #### load of traffic. Mile 2 was 6:03 and I didn't get a third mile but the math puts it right around 6:02 or so. He had a massive kick. He wanted me at about the 200 to go mark shouting out the time and he must have passed 12 kids on that stretch to the finish. The finish corral was jammed and he had the where-with-all to slam his arms out to the side to be sure another runner didn't try and squeeze by. I am incredibly proud and even more pleased about how much fun he had this season. I just wish it didn't have to end so soon. As Sand noted on FB, his drops in the second 1/2 of the season have been impressive. I've charted his entire season, here is how it went (messy paste from Excel, but it gets the point across): 2012 RacesRace Time Vernier Hill 23:12 Algonac Invite 23:22 Westview Orchard 23:53 Stony Invite 1 22:35 Hanson's Invite 22:07Stony Invite 2 21:28 Willow Regional 20:24 Hanson's 9/10 20:36 Metro Beach 1 19:25 Metro Beach 2 18:45I can't wait for next season. He said he'd like to keep running through the winter and up to track season. He also wants to join me (and beat me handily) in a trail race in a few weeks and I am going to give him a trail running tutorial next weekend in preparation follow by gorge ourselves at BW3s.

 

[sho nuff]

That is freaking awesome 2young.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

8 beers last night, 8 hours of sleep, and then 20 faster-than-expected miles this morning at 8:41/mile. Last couple of miles today in the low 8's. Feeling really good going into JFK in 3 weeks!

That is insane. Congrats on getting through the 30/20. You're going to do great on your 50-miler.

 

[prosopis]

8 beers last night, 8 hours of sleep, and then 20 faster-than-expected miles this morning at 8:41/mile. Last couple of miles today in the low 8's. Feeling really good going into JFK in 3 weeks!

I cant wait for this race. Very excited for you.

 

[prosopis]

Great training, guys! I drove up to Milwaukee area to cheer on my university's cross country teams in their conference meet this a.m. It's fun to give them some support (other than the mom of one of the girls, I was the only fan out there).BTW, 2Young's son continues to rip off massive PRs ...

Thanks TM and thanks to Sand for the comment on FB!! Yesterday was amazing to see. We planned out mile splits again and I was at each mile marker shouting out splits and where he stood in terms of breaking the 19 minute mark. His first mile was 6:01 and he had to fight a #### load of traffic. Mile 2 was 6:03 and I didn't get a third mile but the math puts it right around 6:02 or so. He had a massive kick. He wanted me at about the 200 to go mark shouting out the time and he must have passed 12 kids on that stretch to the finish. The finish corral was jammed and he had the where-with-all to slam his arms out to the side to be sure another runner didn't try and squeeze by. I am incredibly proud and even more pleased about how much fun he had this season. I just wish it didn't have to end so soon. As Sand noted on FB, his drops in the second 1/2 of the season have been impressive. I've charted his entire season, here is how it went (messy paste from Excel, but it gets the point across): 2012 RacesRace Time Vernier Hill 23:12 Algonac Invite 23:22 Westview Orchard 23:53 Stony Invite 1 22:35 Hanson's Invite 22:07Stony Invite 2 21:28 Willow Regional 20:24 Hanson's 9/10 20:36 Metro Beach 1 19:25 Metro Beach 2 18:45I can't wait for next season. He said he'd like to keep running through the winter and up to track season. He also wants to join me (and beat me handily) in a trail race in a few weeks and I am going to give him a trail running tutorial next weekend in preparation follow by gorge ourselves at BW3s.

Awesome. You must be glowing.

 

[prosopis]

I had to bring my dog to a shot clinic early this am so I did not get out as usual. I then took the kids to see Hotel Transylvania. We then went to a local pub to catch second half of Az beating USC I had one beer and a chicken sammich at the pub.

Got home and decided I could not live with myself if I did not get a run in. Went out at sunset which was nice until it got real dark. I managed 12 miles @ 9:35 pace. I am glad I did it but man am I sore. I had really tired legs through the whole run. Tomorrow I can now rest guilt free.

 

[2Young2BBald]

I just realized I had a huge omission in my post about my boy and that's a HUGE THANK YOU to the speed guys in here!!!! I am certainly not a speed guy, but I used the collective learnings from this thread from those that are to mentor up my son. As you all can imagine, as a typical teenager who may not listen to dad, it gave me more credibility when I gave him advice when I could reference that this guy says this an he is an XX:XX runner at X distance, etc.

Checking the notebook, is it you, Koby, who was either a track coach. I thought I recalled someone posting something like this. If so (or if it was someone else), if you could post here or IM with some quick hit track off season workout nuggets I'd really appreciate. My son wants to hit the weight room over the winter and I just want to be sure he doesn't over due things to any one direction. He'll be talking to the track coach this week, but I'd like to have all kinds of perspective. For giggle, I got him one of those running parachutes on Amazon as a Xmas gift. He excelled at the 100M & 200M in middle school and is thinking he'll give the 400 a try based on X-Country.

 

[tri-man 47]

I had to bring my dog to a shot clinic early this am so I did not get out as usual. I then took the kids to see Hotel Transylvania. We then went to a local pub to catch second half of Az beating USC I had one beer and a chicken sammich at the pub.

Got home and decided I could not live with myself if I did not get a run in. Went out at sunset which was nice until it got real dark. I managed 12 miles @ 9:35 pace. I am glad I did it but man am I sore. I had really tired legs through the whole run. Tomorrow I can now rest guilt free.

Your turn to the dark side is now complete. 2Young - great, great stuff. If R does a trail race with you, you can show him how that arm swinging really works ...assuming he doesn't blow by you in the first 1/4 mile. Kids.

 

[2Young2BBald]

2Young - great, great stuff. If R does a trail race with you, you can show him how that arm swinging really works ...assuming he doesn't blow by you in the first 1/4 mile. Kids.

I have no visions of hanging with him, even for 100 yards. Cute exchange with him earlier today. He said, "Dad, trail running would be fun next weekend, but I already miss racing". So, we went to the Running in The USA site to see what we could find. We found an event with a 5K run on one of the HS X-Country courses that also has 5-Mile Trail Run. He's doing the 5K, I'll do the 5-Miler. If the 2011 field shows up, he has an outside chance to win the thing. We already had a 5-mile trail race scheduled for the next weekend. Regarding the arm swings, this was a key to his performance yesterday. A week ago, his framed stayed true, but his arms dropped almost to his waist. Yesterday, he maintained excellent posture, including arm swings throughout. We'd talked about maintaining posture even when hurting.

 

[Sand]

2Young - great, great stuff. If R does a trail race with you, you can show him how that arm swinging really works ...assuming he doesn't blow by you in the first 1/4 mile. Kids.

I have no visions of hanging with him, even for 100 yards. Cute exchange with him earlier today. He said, "Dad, trail running would be fun next weekend, but I already miss racing". So, we went to the Running in The USA site to see what we could find. We found an event with a 5K run on one of the HS X-Country courses that also has 5-Mile Trail Run. He's doing the 5K, I'll do the 5-Miler. If the 2011 field shows up, he has an outside chance to win the thing. We already had a 5-mile trail race scheduled for the next weekend. Regarding the arm swings, this was a key to his performance yesterday. A week ago, his framed stayed true, but his arms dropped almost to his waist. Yesterday, he maintained excellent posture, including arm swings throughout. We'd talked about maintaining posture even when hurting.

Just wanted to comment that his rate of improvement is just sick. Ridiculous. I'm sure he's a great kid and all, but I hate him all the same.

 

[mr. furley]

A week ago, his framed stayed true, but his arms dropped almost to his waist. Yesterday, he maintained excellent posture, including arm swings throughout. We'd talked about maintaining posture even when hurting.

i've recently read that the arms should remain low. switched to this and my shoulder pain has gone + breathing is easier.is it just a matter of preference or is there some science behind it?