Ran a 10k - Official Thread (8 Viewers)

[andyjayhawker]

I've done a handful of marathons, all relatively flat (e.g. Chicago). I'm considering doing a marathon in VT in a few months and the course profile is scary (obviously no where near what Duck and others face on a regular basis, but still pretty intense for a road race). There is a steep 400 ft climb early in the race, and then miles 8 through 17 are all uphill -- about 900 ft in total.

How much can I expect this to affect my pace? For a typical, flatter course, I'd be targeting about 7:25 pace.

 

[tri-man 47]

Chief, that's a good report with a solid self-assessment. Tell us more about the HR data (and remind me of your training data and/or max HR). What the above says to me is that a 175-177 HR is much too high for the early miles of a HM. The fact that you were running at a 177 HR for miles 4-7, but at a steadily decreasing pace, suggests that was not a sustainable HR. I'm guessing you saw the pace over the first two miles and felt like you "needed" to go faster. However, the HR data would have told you to keep it slower - whether due to training or the heat/humidity/course conditions. You state the "HR data was telling me I was OK," but is that the case? Again, a reminder of your training data will help to confirm or deny that.

--

andyj - the hills in that race will be depend on your training. If you train for hills, then you might slow some ..maybe drop to an 8:15-8:30 pace? But if you don't actively train on hills, then you could slip to 9-10:00 pace and maybe need to walk a bit. Particularly for a marathon, you need to stay within yourself (back to HR again!). You won't "win" on those hills, but you sure could "lose" if they elevate HR and burn your energy. And hills being hills, I'd worry just as much about the subsequent downhills and their effect on your quads.

 

[Ned]

2015 Ice Age Trail 50K

This is going to end up being longer than usual since this was much more than just the race for me; it was an entire weekend adventure. This was a different experience for me for so many reasons:

1. I'm flying out to meet a guy I've only known over the internet and sleeping at his house for the weekend. Granted, I've known him for 5+ years now, but there's still a part of me that thinks it was weird.
2. I was very under-trained; I've never gone into a race so unprepared before. I actually texted gruecd a month ago wanting to tap out. It seemed like I was making a giant mistake attempting to run my first ever ultra (on trails to boot!) where I was barely averaging 25mpw and had only run 5 double digit runs all year. He convinced me to run it with him as a fun run since he was equally "out of shape". After seeing him drop that 3:20 at Boston had me wondering all over again WTF I was thinking.
3. I don't know that I've ever approached a race as just a fun run. I was a little worried I wouldn't have fun trying to just run for fun (sounds really stupid now in hind sight).

Pre-Race

I was scheduled to fly out of Philly at 5:35pm on Friday. I took a half day off work so I can get a few things done around the house for my wife, but someone else had different plans. I work from home, so I get our 2 boys out the door for school every day. I'm in my office getting through the morning routine and I hear my oldest son (8) "Daddy come here". He's standing on one foot in his doorway of his bedroom. He stubbed his pinky toe on the door jamb while getting ready for school. It was sticking out sideways and he couldn't put any pressure on his foot; even standing on his heel hurt.

So I spent the entire morning getting his broken toe taken care of. Before I knew it, it was 1:00 and I hadn't even packed yet. I rushed around to get ready and then get a series of 6 different calls from US Airways. "you're flight is delayed 1hr". Then it was 2hrs, then back to on time. It finally settled on being 30mins late. OK fine. As I'm sitting at the airport waiting to board, they announce we're delayed with no ETA. I texted gruecd with yet another delay (we had dinner plans, but didn't want to drag them out too long). 10 minutes later they announce we're boarding. WTF IS GOING ON? Are these all signs I shouldn't be doing this??

Once I finally got on the plane, everything went fine. gruecd picked me up at the airport. After a somewhat nervous meet, things settled right in. I can't express my thanks to both he and his girlfriend enough. They opened up their gorgeous new home to me and took me right in as if I was a life long friend. They were overwhelmingly nice which felt awesome.

We went out to a nice pizza place in Milwaukee for dinner and a couple of beers. We inhaled some awesome pizza and I got to sample a good Polish beer (god help me I still can't pronounce it). After dinner we hit a bar to meet some of his girlfriend's friends. Everyone was a lot of fun to hang out with; I could've seen it easily getting out of control. We behaved after another beer and turned in at 11pm.

Race Day

Up and at'em at 5am. I didn't sleep very well. I've noticed lately that I'm just not sleeping well at anywhere else, but at home. I used to sleep amazingly in hotels and whatnot, but not any more. I just kept waking up thinking it was time to get up only to see the clock saying 1:43. :X

Weather was near perfect running conditions - 49 degrees, cloudy, but it was still humid. The plan was easy; run really slow, hit all of the aid stations, and power walk all of the bigger hills. We're here to have fun, not here to compete. All we wanted was to finish with a smile on our faces. I decided that since we were going to go so easy, I'd bring my iPhone 6+ with me to take pics along the way.

The course was a series of 2 distinct loops - a 13mi out/back loop on the Ice Age Trail and then a 9mi loop on the Nordic Trail that we'd run 2x. Each loop ended back at the start/finish area so runners could hit up their support crews/drop bags. There was also an aid station here. gruecd's girlfriend was there to support us and was a big help every time we came through here (3x).

Loop 1 - Ice Age Trail (~13.4 mi)

We started out and quickly settled into a very easy pace. The first 1.5mi was flat/smooth. A good little warm-up before getting into some real trails. We were running around 8:30s to start and agreed we should dial it back a bit. The GPS data is sketchy since we ended up recording 0.75mi short for the first 13mi loop, even though the course was wheel measured. I think all of the switchbacks in the woods and the cloudy skies accounted for the gap in distance.

We hit the first aid station at around 2.5mi out; it was awesome. So much food I didn't know what I wanted until I saw the plate full of Oreos. I freaked out like a little kid and shoved a whole cookie in my mouth. That was fun until I got a quarter mile down the trail and had to deal with the cotton mouth left behind by the cookie. I didn't carry any water, so that kind of sucked.

After the aid station, it was on. Some good trails that weren't super technical, but technical enough that we had to stay in single file and pay attention to what you were doing. At one point, we were running a very narrow ridge that was covered in rocks. Since this was an out/back loop, that meant 2-way traffic. Of course we were on this piece when the leaders came trucking through, so we spent a lot of time jumping off the side of the trails and hoping we don't get knocked down the side of the ridge.

There was 1 really big hill at around mile 6. It was fairly long, rocky, and pretty steep. At the top was the highest point of the course, so we stopped a volunteer to take a pic of us. Right after that was another aid station stop for more grub, and then back down we went. We kind of broke our rules here, but damn was it worth it. We started to fly down some of the more technical trails. We were running fast, but under control at about a 7:30ish pace. Right on the edge of being out of control on the technical stuff. The whole time I'm hootin' and hollerin' at gruecd as we flew down the trails. So much fun!

Somewhere at this point we were stuck behind a woman who finally yelled back to us to pass her on the left and muttered something about all the talking we were doing. I guess we were too chatty for her and she finally had enough.

His girlfriend snapped a good pic of us coming into the aid station after the first loop - My Link

We came back through to the start/finish area finishing the first 13.4mi in around 2:05; roughly a 9:20 pace and HR avg of 156. A bit faster than we had liked, but we were solid. I was super excited at this point; I'd never dreamed I'd feel this good 13mi into a trail run. I was so excited gruecd had to tell me to chill out a bit. I ran over to hit up the bathroom and then off we went for the next section.

Loop 2 - Nordic Trail; take 1 (~9mi)

This was the end of the technical stuff; the trails were wide open with nothing but short, but constant rolling hills. The "death by 1,000 papercuts" description was spot on. If you looked at the hills in a vacuum, they seemed simple. Just some short jaunts up a decent incline - no big deal. But factor in that you've already been running for 2hrs and had to do this 2x and it quickly became a bigger challenge.

The plan was to run this in around 90mins. Keep it slow/steady so we have enough to push the last loop harder. We ran all of the flats/downs and power walked all of the major ups. We hit mile 15.5 and that quickly became a pain in the ###. The rollers for the next mile were so constant that we just couldn't keep a rhythm going. We were tired and the best thing to do here is to keep running to get into that locked-in state. But with all of the rollers, that was proving to be too tough. We made a mental note that we'd need to deal with this again at mile 24.

Otherwise, it was a straight forward run. Just putting in the work, fueling and getting a breather at all of the aid stations. We hit the mile 20 aid station and there's this girl taking pics of us with her iphone as we approached. Odd, but OK whatever. Then as we're chowing down and chugging flat soda, I see her really looking at gruecd; she either thinks she knows him or wants to have his babies. A couple of minutes go by and she introduces herself. Come to find out she's a friend of his girlfriends and recognized him from Facebook pics. OK now that makes more sense.

We made it back to the start/finish area and agreed to spend about 5 minutes here to rest up. gruecd was cramping a bit in his calves, so he got a quick biofreeze treatment from his girlfriend. I think we made it through the first loop right on time - 90 minutes. The pace/effort was perfect. My HR was steady in the 150s and only ever hit the high 160's on some of the bigger hills that we power walked. You know there's some incline to it when you're hitting MP effort while walking.....

Loop 3 - Nordic Trail; take 1 (~9mi)

OK, now it was on. We're 22mi in and heading out for the final loop. I figured once we started this, there's no way we're not finishing this thing. I was tired, but that's to be expected after running 22mi of trails regardless of how easy you run. We started to notice the sun was trying to break through the clouds. Things were warming up quickly. I was sweating pretty good, but hydrating well. Side note - holy #### does gruecd sweat a lot!

I always end up with a single motto/saying during a run/race. Today's was 'so what'. Yes, I'm hot, tired, and things are starting to bark at me, but 'so what'. I'm finishing regardless of what happens, so just forget about it and put in the work. I was probably annoying gruecd with it, but I kept saying it out loud a lot.

The strange thing about this loop is the hills didn't seem as hard as they did the first time through. I think it was because we knew what was coming this go around, but it was a welcome relief to not have those 'holy crap' thoughts. When we hit the 'mentally noted' mile 24, we agreed to walk all of the ups on the constant rollers. We couldn't let this tough mile derail us, so we sucked up the pride and walked the majority of the uphills. Even running the downhills was becoming painful - my hips/quads were not happy. Another side note: this overall strategy proved to be very effective. Guys were passing us on the uphills that we were walking, but we passed them back each time we started to run again and never saw them again (aside from 1 guy we dubbed 'Mr. Efficient').

I was excited to get to mile 27 since it meant that I was now into mileage PR territory and it was only 4 more miles to go. I apparently made a faux pas and told a guy that was struggling that 'we were almost done' at this point. Sorry buddy, I was excited! At this point we were both starting to drag - the heat was catching up to us. We went to walking 1:00 spurts when we felt the need. I could tell at this point that gruecd was holding back for me, which was very cool of him (dude can grind!!). Instead of us chatting it up side by side, he's barking orders at me while I stayed 10ft behind him.

Somewhere around mile 29ish I pulled up along side of him and picked up the effort a smidge. He looked over at me and asked "where'd this come from?" I was getting fed up with the slogging and just wanted to finish. I told him I'd regret saying this, but I pointed out a guy I called 'big red' (why, I don't know) and said lets go catch him. I guess in my fatgued state he looked a lot closer than he really was. We got another look at the gap and laughed it off - he's too far out.

We finally heard the live music going on and the cheers at the finish. #### yeah, I just finished my first ultra. I really didn't want to be 'that guy' and sprint the finish, so we strided it in to a finish of 5:22 (10:22/155). Considering we spent a solid 15 minutes at all of the aid stations, that's a solid time considering we weren't racing, IMO. I looked up the results this morning and was surprised to see we finished 38th and 39th out of 195. Makes me slightly regret not training for this thing and not racing it.

Post Race

We went back to the car to clean up and change clothes. My quads were fried; the accumulation of those rollers really did a number on them. We hit the post-race BBQ and struggled to eat a full plate. As much as I wanted to eat, I just couldn't eat much. I think gruecd was in the same boat.

We went back to their place and I crashed for a nap while they went Mother's Day shopping. After the nap, we watched the Justin Bieber roast on TV while his girlfriend got ready (I was in tears laughing). We went downtown for dinner and stuffed ourselves on nachos, burgers, and beer. That quickly went from excitement to dragging ###. The long day plus stuffed guts brought us down hard. We hit a couple of bars for a few drinks and called it a night at midnight.

Now looking back at all of this, I am really glad I went for it and didn't back out. I went into this really unsure of what to expect and came out with an awesome memory and 2 new friends. I always like to reflect back after a big race on where I've come from. 5 years ago I used to be scared to run 5 miles. To think I just ran 31 miles worth of trails while not training for it blows my mind. I feel super lucky to be able to do this stuff.

gruecd - Thanks again for being such an awesome host. My door is always open whenever you're in DE area!

 

[Ned]

Chief, that's a good report with a solid self-assessment. Tell us more about the HR data (and remind me of your training data and/or max HR). What the above says to me is that a 175-177 HR is much too high for the early miles of a HM. The fact that you were running at a 177 HR for miles 4-7, but at a steadily decreasing pace, suggests that was not a sustainable HR. I'm guessing you saw the pace over the first two miles and felt like you "needed" to go faster. However, the HR data would have told you to keep it slower - whether due to training or the heat/humidity/course conditions. You state the "HR data was telling me I was OK," but is that the case? Again, a reminder of your training data will help to confirm or deny that.

Excellent post.

 

[Hang 10]

Chief, that's a good report with a solid self-assessment. Tell us more about the HR data (and remind me of your training data and/or max HR). What the above says to me is that a 175-177 HR is much too high for the early miles of a HM. The fact that you were running at a 177 HR for miles 4-7, but at a steadily decreasing pace, suggests that was not a sustainable HR. I'm guessing you saw the pace over the first two miles and felt like you "needed" to go faster. However, the HR data would have told you to keep it slower - whether due to training or the heat/humidity/course conditions. You state the "HR data was telling me I was OK," but is that the case? Again, a reminder of your training data will help to confirm or deny that.

Excellent post.

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/724983-ran-a-10k-ultra-weekends-for-duck-grue-ned-chiefd-a-hm/page-17#entry17946650

This is his last half. Doesn't look much different heart rate wise. Me thinks this issue could be mental or over training possibly.

 

[beer 30]

Chief, that's a good report with a solid self-assessment. Tell us more about the HR data (and remind me of your training data and/or max HR). What the above says to me is that a 175-177 HR is much too high for the early miles of a HM. The fact that you were running at a 177 HR for miles 4-7, but at a steadily decreasing pace, suggests that was not a sustainable HR. I'm guessing you saw the pace over the first two miles and felt like you "needed" to go faster. However, the HR data would have told you to keep it slower - whether due to training or the heat/humidity/course conditions. You state the "HR data was telling me I was OK," but is that the case? Again, a reminder of your training data will help to confirm or deny that.

--

andyj - the hills in that race will be depend on your training. If you train for hills, then you might slow some ..maybe drop to an 8:15-8:30 pace? But if you don't actively train on hills, then you could slip to 9-10:00 pace and maybe need to walk a bit. Particularly for a marathon, you need to stay within yourself (back to HR again!). You won't "win" on those hills, but you sure could "lose" if they elevate HR and burn your energy. And hills being hills, I'd worry just as much about the subsequent downhills and their effect on your quads.

This is why you pay the annual subscription fee to this thread

 

[Ned]

Chief, that's a good report with a solid self-assessment. Tell us more about the HR data (and remind me of your training data and/or max HR). What the above says to me is that a 175-177 HR is much too high for the early miles of a HM. The fact that you were running at a 177 HR for miles 4-7, but at a steadily decreasing pace, suggests that was not a sustainable HR. I'm guessing you saw the pace over the first two miles and felt like you "needed" to go faster. However, the HR data would have told you to keep it slower - whether due to training or the heat/humidity/course conditions. You state the "HR data was telling me I was OK," but is that the case? Again, a reminder of your training data will help to confirm or deny that.

Excellent post.

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/724983-ran-a-10k-ultra-weekends-for-duck-grue-ned-chiefd-a-hm/page-17#entry17946650

This is his last half. Doesn't look much different heart rate wise. Me thinks this issue could be mental or over training possibly.

It was hot and he was fighting a cold. The start of the last HM was much different, IMO.

Mile 1: 165HR. Pace 8:32

Mile 2: 177HR. Pace 8:19

Mile 3: 177HR. Pace 8:29 The first 3 miles of this course are basically a long uphill. A climb of 266 feet.

Mile 4: 174HR. Pace 8:15

Mile 5: 173HR. Pace 8:20

 

[tri-man 47]

2015 Ice Age Trail 50K

Somewhere at this point we were stuck behind a woman who finally yelled back to us to pass her on the left and muttered something about all the talking we were doing. I guess we were too chatty for her and she finally had enough.

Why does this surprise me not at all? Great report! I really got a feel for the race. Congrats again to you both!

 

[Ned]

2015 Ice Age Trail 50K

Somewhere at this point we were stuck behind a woman who finally yelled back to us to pass her on the left and muttered something about all the talking we were doing. I guess we were too chatty for her and she finally had enough.

Why does this surprise me not at all? Great report! I really got a feel for the race. Congrats again to you both!

I forgot we had a little wager on the race.... First guy to fall owes the other one dinner. Amazingly, neither of us fell. gruecd almost bit it on a downhill at 30.5, but managed to stay upright.

 

[tri-man 47]

2015 Ice Age Trail 50K

Somewhere at this point we were stuck behind a woman who finally yelled back to us to pass her on the left and muttered something about all the talking we were doing. I guess we were too chatty for her and she finally had enough.

Why does this surprise me not at all? Great report! I really got a feel for the race. Congrats again to you both!

I forgot we had a little wager on the race.... First guy to fall owes the other one dinner. Amazingly, neither of us fell. gruecd almost bit it on a downhill at 30.5, but managed to stay upright.

...that would have answered the question: If a Clydesdale falls in the forest, does it make a sound?

 

[beer 30]

We hit the mile 20 aid station and there's this girl taking pics of us with her iphone as we approached. Odd, but OK whatever. Then as we're chowing down and chugging flat soda, I see her really looking at gruecd; she either thinks she knows him or wants to have his babies.

First, who doesn't?

Now looking back at all of this, I am really glad I went for it and didn't back out. I went into this really unsure of what to expect and came out with an awesome memory and 2 new friends. I always like to reflect back after a big race on where I've come from. 5 years ago I used to be scared to run 5 miles. To think I just ran 31 miles worth of trails while not training for it blows my mind. I feel super lucky to be able to do this stuff.

gruecd - Thanks again for being such an awesome host. My door is always open whenever you're in DE area!

Second, this is what's it's about. Nothing better than hanging with somebody during one of these and having a blast. Great job guys!

 

[ChiefD]

Great read Ned. Really cool you got to do this with grue. Love the pics.

 

[ChiefD]

Chief, that's a good report with a solid self-assessment. Tell us more about the HR data (and remind me of your training data and/or max HR). What the above says to me is that a 175-177 HR is much too high for the early miles of a HM. The fact that you were running at a 177 HR for miles 4-7, but at a steadily decreasing pace, suggests that was not a sustainable HR. I'm guessing you saw the pace over the first two miles and felt like you "needed" to go faster. However, the HR data would have told you to keep it slower - whether due to training or the heat/humidity/course conditions. You state the "HR data was telling me I was OK," but is that the case? Again, a reminder of your training data will help to confirm or deny that.

Excellent post.

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/724983-ran-a-10k-ultra-weekends-for-duck-grue-ned-chiefd-a-hm/page-17#entry17946650

This is his last half. Doesn't look much different heart rate wise. Me thinks this issue could be mental or over training possibly.

It was hot and he was fighting a cold. The start of the last HM was much different, IMO.

Mile 1: 165HR. Pace 8:32

Mile 2: 177HR. Pace 8:19

Mile 3: 177HR. Pace 8:29 The first 3 miles of this course are basically a long uphill. A climb of 266 feet.

Mile 4: 174HR. Pace 8:15

Mile 5: 173HR. Pace 8:20

Regarding the HR data, this is the first year I've had it for the races. So I'm really trying to learn where I need to be. During training, I was running in the 170's during my pace runs.

I'm really trying to figure all this out in my head regarding the data. When I look back at my data from my PR last spring, I was wearing a heart monitor until it quit on race day. But when I go back and look at those workouts, almost all of my runs I ran were in the 150's and 160's, including my easy runs.

Whereas this year, a lot of my training was done at the lower heart rate - in the 140's. With the speed work and pace runs mixed in. So last spring, I trained a heck of a lot faster than this spring.

So I don't know if this is a two steps back, one step forward type of year, where my body is starting to be trained properly at the right heart rates, and eventually I will really start to get faster.

Or, my body just responds better to training faster instead of slower.

 

[El Floppo]

Great read Ned. Really cool you got to do this with grue. Love the pics.

amazing in general... but ultra (get it ) amazing to do it with a pal. that seems like it would have been all kinds of suck/lonely/brutal going solo.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Or, my body just responds better to training faster instead of slower.

It's not an "either-or". It should be a "both". You should be doing the bulk of your miles in that relatively easy heart rate zone (like you have), but to be faster, you also have to specifically focus on that. I think that was the part of your training that was lacking, particularly skipping those tune up races. I also would recommend longer tempos than those Higdon ones. I'm convinced that I owe the bulk of the successes I've had to aggressive, long tempos.

 

[El Floppo]

Or, my body just responds better to training faster instead of slower.

It's not an "either-or". It should be a "both". You should be doing the bulk of your miles in that relatively easy heart rate zone (like you have), but to be faster, you also have to specifically focus on that. I think that was the part of your training that was lacking, particularly skipping those tune up races. I also would recommend longer tempos than those Higdon ones. I'm convinced that I owe the bulk of the successes I've had to aggressive, long tempos.

I'm totally out of the loop and still not training.... *caveat*

but... tempo runs and for me specifically, progressively longer out and backs (x3 in a typical workout), really helped me with increasing my pacing.

 

[MAC_32]

Or, my body just responds better to training faster instead of slower.

It's not an "either-or". It should be a "both". You should be doing the bulk of your miles in that relatively easy heart rate zone (like you have), but to be faster, you also have to specifically focus on that. I think that was the part of your training that was lacking, particularly skipping those tune up races. I also would recommend longer tempos than those Higdon ones. I'm convinced that I owe the bulk of the successes I've had to aggressive, long tempos.

My gameplan has changed as I'm trending more towards trails, but if I were focusing on road racing this is where I am right now too. I made many-a mistakes over the last few years, but my biggest swing-and-a-miss half training last Fall were those tempos. They were too short, I chose poor times to try to do them, I did them too often, and I failed them repeatedly.

 

[Ned]

Great read Ned. Really cool you got to do this with grue. Love the pics.

amazing in general... but ultra (get it ) amazing to do it with a pal. that seems like it would have been all kinds of suck/lonely/brutal going solo.

We actually talked about this during the run. Passing a lot of solo folks as we chatted up a storm it was clear they weren't having as much fun as we were. I couldn't have done this without gruecd being right there with me for every step of the run.

 

[pbm107]

I think this might have been the best weekend in the history of the thread. Awesome job guys.

Chief tough race, I think you have a good handle on what happened on race day with the pacing being a little too fast early. On the training side you are going to have to find out what works for you and what you like to do. Some people like running lots of miles, some like running a lot of quality tempo/intervals, and some can handle both.

I think a lot of improvement can be made by just running slow/low HR if you are increasing the training volume (mileage). With a marathon coming up in October I think you will get the most bang for your buck increasing your mileage this summer. I know this image shaped my training approach during my first marathon (I think Sand first posted it here).

 

[FUBAR]

You guys keep me motivated.

Suck index 154

47 mile bike, averaged exactly 20 mph, 149 bpm. Didn't realize how good a wind I had at first, was going around 23mph for the first 30 minutes, then headed into the wind. Yep, that slowed me down big time.

3 mile run. 8:30 pace and it sucked.

:X

 

[FUBAR]

Or, my body just responds better to training faster instead of slower.

It's not an "either-or". It should be a "both". You should be doing the bulk of your miles in that relatively easy heart rate zone (like you have), but to be faster, you also have to specifically focus on that. I think that was the part of your training that was lacking, particularly skipping those tune up races. I also would recommend longer tempos than those Higdon ones. I'm convinced that I owe the bulk of the successes I've had to aggressive, long tempos.

My gameplan has changed as I'm trending more towards trails, but if I were focusing on road racing this is where I am right now too. I made many-a mistakes over the last few years, but my biggest swing-and-a-miss half training last Fall were those tempos. They were too short, I chose poor times to try to do them, I did them too often, and I failed them repeatedly.

But other than that?

 

[Ned]

I think this might have been the best weekend in the history of the thread. Awesome job guys.

Chief tough race, I think you have a good handle on what happened on race day with the pacing being a little too fast early. On the training side you are going to have to find out what works for you and what you like to do. Some people like running lots of miles, some like running a lot of quality tempo/intervals, and some can handle both.

I think a lot of improvement can be made by just running slow/low HR if you are increasing the training volume (mileage). With a marathon coming up in October I think you will get the most bang for your buck increasing your mileage this summer. I know this image shaped my training approach during my first marathon (I think Sand first posted it here).

x 10

The entire OP in that link is outstanding. Read it 5x over! This quote really strikes a chord with me:

"The motivation for this type of post is often the frustration I have when I see people run themselves into the ground run at paces that are often two high to really have the kin dof effects they are hoping for, especially given the amount of effort they are putting into their training. I can't tell you how many times I've met someone who runs 25 miles a week (run only training) and wants to get faster in a 5K by pounding out 400s at a minute per mile faster than there race pace. It's not that its a bad workout, but that the focus is just put in the wrong place. "

Another response in that thread was a spot on analogy; sig worthy! "Doing speed at the key times of the year will put the icing on your cake, assuming you have cake. "

I'd also add that you need to broaden your outlook past today. Yes, you want to see gains after putting in a good training cycle. However, a lot of things need to line up just right for a breakthrough performance. Trying to get to the next level is hard, but when you add in being sick and it being hot/humid, you can't really beat yourself up too much over it.

Side Note: pretty cool to see Delaware athletes mentioned!

 

[Hang 10]

Definitely wont argue with PBM and Ned about an overall training strategy. That is definitely the smart way to do it. BUT I do think there's something else going on here. Most peoples half marathon times are pretty linear. Unless there's some setbacks most people progress year to year.

And as a broken record, I will say again...PLEASE run some shorter races, Chiefs. Whatever you do, do not just train long and slow for a long slow marathon. You should run a minimum of 3 races in training for this marathon. Even better would be something like 2 5k's, 1 10k and half. Learn how to race and find your weaknesses. Hell, if anything it will break up the monotony of training and give you a realistic snapshot of your fitness. It will definitely give you a better idea of what your race goal should look like.

 

[phatdawg]

So to continue this line of discussion, what are some good workouts to increase speed for a 5K? I set up a plan to better my 5K time at a race this summer and was going to follow Higdon's intermediate plan (which includes a day of either tempo run or 400s). I wasn't really sure at what pace I should run either of these, but I thought it was a good place to start.

 

[ChiefD]

Definitely wont argue with PBM and Ned about an overall training strategy. That is definitely the smart way to do it. BUT I do think there's something else going on here. Most peoples half marathon times are pretty linear. Unless there's some setbacks most people progress year to year.

And as a broken record, I will say again...PLEASE run some shorter races, Chiefs. Whatever you do, do not just train long and slow for a long slow marathon. You should run a minimum of 3 races in training for this marathon. Even better would be something like 2 5k's, 1 10k and half. Learn how to race and find your weaknesses. Hell, if anything it will break up the monotony of training and give you a realistic snapshot of your fitness. It will definitely give you a better idea of what your race goal should look like.

I do run speed work in the midst of all this training...just an FYI. It's not all 100% slow running.

But I do plan to run some shorter races. It's always in my plan, but three kids playing soccer on weekends makes it difficult to plan around. I'm gone enough running in the evenings and weekends, so I hate to shortchange them on their games.

I've always tried to at least work in what I consider as a race day simulation, where I'll run a 5k and 10k distance at a faster pace. So I've done that quite a bit. I know it's not the same, but I at least have tried to run some faster paced stuff.

 

[Hang 10]

Definitely wont argue with PBM and Ned about an overall training strategy. That is definitely the smart way to do it. BUT I do think there's something else going on here. Most peoples half marathon times are pretty linear. Unless there's some setbacks most people progress year to year.

And as a broken record, I will say again...PLEASE run some shorter races, Chiefs. Whatever you do, do not just train long and slow for a long slow marathon. You should run a minimum of 3 races in training for this marathon. Even better would be something like 2 5k's, 1 10k and half. Learn how to race and find your weaknesses. Hell, if anything it will break up the monotony of training and give you a realistic snapshot of your fitness. It will definitely give you a better idea of what your race goal should look like.

I do run speed work in the midst of all this training...just an FYI. It's not all 100% slow running.

But I do plan to run some shorter races. It's always in my plan, but three kids playing soccer on weekends makes it difficult to plan around. I'm gone enough running in the evenings and weekends, so I hate to shortchange them on their games.

I've always tried to at least work in what I consider as a race day simulation, where I'll run a 5k and 10k distance at a faster pace. So I've done that quite a bit. I know it's not the same, but I at least have tried to run some faster paced stuff.

I definitely hear you with working around your families schedule. When I ran my 5K last weekend, ran the race and got right back in my truck went to a softball game. No time for the podium. It doesn't work every weekend but there are races out there that you may be able to work in. There really is no good substitution for a real race. I just can't muster the same effort solo.

 

[pbm107]

Whatever you do, do not just train long and slow for a long slow marathon.

Long and slow training doesn't equal long and slow marathon.

June 2012 191 miles 8:16 HR 147

July 2012 211 miles 8:33 HR 145

Aug 2012 172 miles 8:35 HR 146

Sept 2012 211 miles 8:33 HR 146

Oct 2012 256 miles 8:31 HR 143

No quality running (tempos or intervals) during this time period except for a half marathon run in Sept.

Nov 2012 Marathon 7:22 pace

I am sure one could find many examples of runners performing well in a marathon with limited mileage too, but I wanted to show that long and slow training with (relatively) heavy mileage doesn't equal long and slow marathon. Prior to June 2012 the most I had ever run was 161 miles in a month. The increased mileage was stimulus/stressful enough and worked on my weakness at the time (endurance).

I too would like to see how Chief performs at shorter distances.

 

[MAC_32]

Or, my body just responds better to training faster instead of slower.

It's not an "either-or". It should be a "both". You should be doing the bulk of your miles in that relatively easy heart rate zone (like you have), but to be faster, you also have to specifically focus on that. I think that was the part of your training that was lacking, particularly skipping those tune up races. I also would recommend longer tempos than those Higdon ones. I'm convinced that I owe the bulk of the successes I've had to aggressive, long tempos.

My gameplan has changed as I'm trending more towards trails, but if I were focusing on road racing this is where I am right now too. I made many-a mistakes over the last few years, but my biggest swing-and-a-miss half training last Fall were those tempos. They were too short, I chose poor times to try to do them, I did them too often, and I failed them repeatedly.

But other than that?

It was great!

 

[MAC_32]

So to continue this line of discussion, what are some good workouts to increase speed for a 5K? I set up a plan to better my 5K time at a race this summer and was going to follow Higdon's intermediate plan (which includes a day of either tempo run or 400s). I wasn't really sure at what pace I should run either of these, but I thought it was a good place to start.

My favorite go-to speed workout is up the ladder down the ladder

Find a track

Jog 100-Sprint 100

Jog 200-Sprint 200

Jog 300-Sprint 300

Jog 400-Sprint 400

Jog 800-Sprint 800 (optional, at first - trust me)

Jog 400-Sprint 400

Jog 300-Sprint 300

Jog 200-Sprint 200

Jog 100-Sprint 100

If done properly you'll want to vomit during the 400's, blackout somewhere towards the end of the 300, forget the final two intervals even happened, then you'll come-to laying in the infield with a heart rate somewhere out in the stratosphere. I then recommend a gallon of water quickly followed by pizza and beer.

 

[FUBAR]

So to continue this line of discussion, what are some good workouts to increase speed for a 5K? I set up a plan to better my 5K time at a race this summer and was going to follow Higdon's intermediate plan (which includes a day of either tempo run or 400s). I wasn't really sure at what pace I should run either of these, but I thought it was a good place to start.

My favorite go-to speed workout is up the ladder down the ladderFind a track

Jog 100-Sprint 100

Jog 200-Sprint 200

Jog 300-Sprint 300

Jog 400-Sprint 400

Jog 800-Sprint 800 (optional, at first - trust me)

Jog 400-Sprint 400

Jog 300-Sprint 300

Jog 200-Sprint 200

Jog 100-Sprint 100

If done properly you'll want to vomit during the 400's, blackout somewhere towards the end of the 300, forget the final two intervals even happened, then you'll come-to laying in the infield with a heart rate somewhere out in the stratosphere. I then recommend a gallon of water quickly followed by pizza and beer.

Love the workout. Hate putting it into the watch.

 

[tri-man 47]

I know this image shaped my training approach during my first marathon (I think Sand first posted it here).

Ned ...a great link for the front page.

 

[NREC34]

I think I've got plantar fasciitis in both feet. What's the best thing to do, stop running for awhile?

 

[Ned]

I know this image shaped my training approach during my first marathon (I think Sand first posted it here).

Ned ...a great link for the front page.

I put it there right after reading it!

 

[Hang 10]

Whatever you do, do not just train long and slow for a long slow marathon.

Long and slow training doesn't equal long and slow marathon.

June 2012 191 miles 8:16 HR 147

July 2012 211 miles 8:33 HR 145

Aug 2012 172 miles 8:35 HR 146

Sept 2012 211 miles 8:33 HR 146

Oct 2012 256 miles 8:31 HR 143

No quality running (tempos or intervals) during this time period except for a half marathon run in Sept.

Nov 2012 Marathon 7:22 pace

I am sure one could find many examples of runners performing well in a marathon with limited mileage too, but I wanted to show that long and slow training with (relatively) heavy mileage doesn't equal long and slow marathon. Prior to June 2012 the most I had ever run was 161 miles in a month. The increased mileage was stimulus/stressful enough and worked on my weakness at the time (endurance).

I too would like to see how Chief performs at shorter distances.

Definitely didn't mean to imply otherwise. Aerobic training is obviously paramount for marathon training. Just like to see chiefs prs at other distances...bet that would tell a story.

But this got me thinking. Im tentatively planning a marathon for mid November. I ran 150 miles last month. At this point I've got no idea what plan to use. Any thoughts on getting me to Boston.

TIA

 

[Juxtatarot]

So to continue this line of discussion, what are some good workouts to increase speed for a 5K? I set up a plan to better my 5K time at a race this summer and was going to follow Higdon's intermediate plan (which includes a day of either tempo run or 400s). I wasn't really sure at what pace I should run either of these, but I thought it was a good place to start.

I sound like a broken record but fill in your time for a recent race and your 5K goal on the McMillan calculator then click on the "Training Paces" tab. That will give you a good pace range to shoot for on tempos and speed work. He also has videos and information on how to do the workouts.

 

[pbm107]

But this got me thinking. Im tentatively planning a marathon for mid November. I ran 150 miles last month. At this point I've got no idea what plan to use. Any thoughts on getting me to Boston.TIA

Try running 200 miles this month and see how you body responds. If that works out for you try to run at least 200 a month for the rest of the summer, the more you can run the better. Run the last 12 weeks of the Pfitz 70 18 week plan. On race day aim for 2 minutes better than your BQ time, with your speed you have a chance if you can handle the miles.

 

[Hang 10]

But this got me thinking. Im tentatively planning a marathon for mid November. I ran 150 miles last month. At this point I've got no idea what plan to use. Any thoughts on getting me to Boston.

TIA

Try running 200 miles this month and see how you body responds. If that works out for you try to run at least 200 a month for the rest of the summer, the more you can run the better. Run the last 12 weeks of the Pfitz 70 18 week plan. On race day aim for 2 minutes better than your BQ time, with your speed you have a chance if you can handle the miles.

80% of runs at or under 150ish bpm?

 

[SFBayDuck]

2015 Ice Age Trail 50K

This is going to end up being longer than usual since this was much more than just the race for me; it was an entire weekend adventure. This was a different experience for me for so many reasons:

Great report, and sounds like a great time. Congrats again on being able to call yourself an ultrarunner, and you get to claim a new PR to boot!

 

[pbm107]

But this got me thinking. Im tentatively planning a marathon for mid November. I ran 150 miles last month. At this point I've got no idea what plan to use. Any thoughts on getting me to Boston.

TIA

Try running 200 miles this month and see how you body responds. If that works out for you try to run at least 200 a month for the rest of the summer, the more you can run the better. Run the last 12 weeks of the Pfitz 70 18 week plan. On race day aim for 2 minutes better than your BQ time, with your speed you have a chance if you can handle the miles.

80% of runs at or under 150ish bpm?

During base building I run all my miles below 145 (my max of 195), but I think your max is higher so 150 would be fine. When I was first started running 200 mile months it was a big jump for me and I was sort of on the verge of injury. If I would have added quality to the mix it probably would have put me over the edge and injured. I don't know what your mileage history is and what you can handle. I know that after three marathon training cycles I can handle a lot more than I could three years ago.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Whatever you do, do not just train long and slow for a long slow marathon.

Long and slow training doesn't equal long and slow marathon.

June 2012 191 miles 8:16 HR 147

July 2012 211 miles 8:33 HR 145

Aug 2012 172 miles 8:35 HR 146

Sept 2012 211 miles 8:33 HR 146

Oct 2012 256 miles 8:31 HR 143

No quality running (tempos or intervals) during this time period except for a half marathon run in Sept.

Nov 2012 Marathon 7:22 pace

I am sure one could find many examples of runners performing well in a marathon with limited mileage too, but I wanted to show that long and slow training with (relatively) heavy mileage doesn't equal long and slow marathon. Prior to June 2012 the most I had ever run was 161 miles in a month. The increased mileage was stimulus/stressful enough and worked on my weakness at the time (endurance).

I too would like to see how Chief performs at shorter distances.

This is basically the Maffetone method - do all of your running at a set sub-maximal aerobic HR, and you will get faster at that HR and that will carry over to improved pace at harder efforts. He obviously uses his 180-age formula, but I've heard him say it doesn't really matter what HR you choose as long as it's truly an aerobic effort. Volume is key to this, as the more you put in the faster and greater the improvements.

Like Lucho always says on Endurance Planet Ask the Coaches podcast, it's all about having enough training stress to force adaptation. If you're running everything at an easy/MAF pace, then you need to push volume to a point that it's producing adequate training stress, and continue to increase that volume as your body adapts. Once you plateau, then you need to change the stress and that's where Maffetone would introduce a period of intensity.

I'm trying to figure out what to do next, once I recover from this weekend, with the possibility of a Fall 100 miler. My inclination is to go back to my typical easy days on the trails because that's what I enjoy, but part of me wants to do a little reverse periodization of sorts and do a block of intensity (hill repeats and tempo primarily, don't see myself getting back on a track) to see if I can increase my speed and strength a bit before going back into more race-specific training.

 

[Hang 10]

But this got me thinking. Im tentatively planning a marathon for mid November. I ran 150 miles last month. At this point I've got no idea what plan to use. Any thoughts on getting me to Boston.

TIA

Try running 200 miles this month and see how you body responds. If that works out for you try to run at least 200 a month for the rest of the summer, the more you can run the better. Run the last 12 weeks of the Pfitz 70 18 week plan. On race day aim for 2 minutes better than your BQ time, with your speed you have a chance if you can handle the miles.

80% of runs at or under 150ish bpm?

During base building I run all my miles below 145 (my max of 195), but I think your max is higher so 150 would be fine. When I was first started running 200 mile months it was a big jump for me and I was sort of on the verge of injury. If I would have added quality to the mix it probably would have put me over the edge and injured. I don't know what your mileage history is and what you can handle. I know that after three marathon training cycles I can handle a lot more than I could three years ago.

I started the year off with a 225 mile month but come February my heart started going nuts. Overall my body handled the mileage fine though. I feel strong enough to increase the miles now. I guess I can always play the speed work by ear.

 

[Sand]

I know this image shaped my training approach during my first marathon (I think Sand first posted it here).

Ned ...a great link for the front page.

It is - there is a huge amount of wisdom condensed into that graph.

 

[Northern Voice]

Inspiring reading these reports. I'm finally at the point that I can run 5K without having to do 10 mins run, 1 min walk. Up to 7-8K distance overall. Losing weight helps, it sucked feeling my boobs jiggle when I started out, that doesn't happen anymore.

 

[Sand]

Inspiring reading these reports. I'm finally at the point that I can run 5K without having to do 10 mins run, 1 min walk. Up to 7-8K distance overall. Losing weight helps, it sucked feeling my boobs jiggle when I started out, that doesn't happen anymore.

Losing weight is huge. Great to see you keeping this up!

 

[tri-man 47]

I think I've got plantar fasciitis in both feet. What's the best thing to do, stop running for awhile?

You do need to back off ..it's hard to run through that. Take time to rest it, but do some stretching too. You could do the old trick of rolling the bottom of the foot on a tennis ball. Also, stretch the calf by standing on the edge of a stair and raising up and dipping down, and stretch the toes in front with a towel or elastic band. When I fought this some years back, it helped to sit on the edge of the bed in the morning and take a few minutes to loosen things up ...rotate the foot up and down, and in and out, and also spell out the alphabet with your toes (as a way to move the foot in numerous directions). If you do a good stretching session, you could then immerse it in ice cold water and/or take Motrin/Advil to reduce inflammation. Gotta be patient, though. This could linger for many weeks - unfortunately. As a way to keep working the legs, you could do both standing squats (while flat footed so as not to cause more problems) and leg lifts.

Were you scheduled for, or planning any, races?

--

Northern Voice, great to hear of your progress!

 

[FUBAR]

I know this image shaped my training approach during my first marathon (I think Sand first posted it here).

Ned ...a great link for the front page.

It is - there is a huge amount of wisdom condensed into that graph.

Yep

the comments at the bottom should be required reading for anyone in this thread, especially the aspiring tri-guys.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Inspiring reading these reports. I'm finally at the point that I can run 5K without having to do 10 mins run, 1 min walk. Up to 7-8K distance overall. Losing weight helps, it sucked feeling my boobs jiggle when I started out, that doesn't happen anymore.

I went from a D to a small B.

 

[Ned]

I think I've got plantar fasciitis in both feet. What's the best thing to do, stop running for awhile?

You do need to back off ..it's hard to run through that. Take time to rest it, but do some stretching too. You could do the old trick of rolling the bottom of the foot on a tennis ball. Also, stretch the calf by standing on the edge of a stair and raising up and dipping down, and stretch the toes in front with a towel or elastic band. When I fought this some years back, it helped to sit on the edge of the bed in the morning and take a few minutes to loosen things up ...rotate the foot up and down, and in and out, and also spell out the alphabet with your toes (as a way to move the foot in numerous directions). If you do a good stretching session, you could then immerse it in ice cold water and/or take Motrin/Advil to reduce inflammation. Gotta be patient, though. This could linger for many weeks - unfortunately. As a way to keep working the legs, you could do both standing squats (while flat footed so as not to cause more problems) and leg lifts.

Were you scheduled for, or planning any, races?

If you can get your hands on a lacrosse ball, they're perfect for PF since they're a lot harder than most balls :snicker:

 

[parasaurolophus]

Inspiring reading these reports. I'm finally at the point that I can run 5K without having to do 10 mins run, 1 min walk. Up to 7-8K distance overall. Losing weight helps, it sucked feeling my boobs jiggle when I started out, that doesn't happen anymore.

Had a 72 year old man that religiously followed this beat me in a half marathon last year. Absolutely nothing wrong with walking. Followed this strategy for much of my marathon PR. I had to walk twice because I thought my heart was going to pound out of my chest during my second fastest 5k time(just broke this PR a few weeks ago).

Would you rather run a time where you didn't walk or would you rather run a time that is 30 seconds faster and walked?

Either way, keep up the good work. I was where you are not that long ago. You are about to cross over into VERY rewarding territory. There will be some pain and suffering, but it is really amazing what can be done with lots of hard work. This thread is a testament to that.

 

[MAC_32]

A little different, but I received some great advice about 30 seconds before a trail race last summer. There is no shame in walking the uphills. Thought had never crossed my mind before, but it being my first over the river and through the woods race longer than 5 miles (ever) I gave it a shot. It was the first time I ever negative split.