Ran a 10k - Official Thread (2 Viewers)

[gianmarco]

Enjoy.  The 10K loop around the perimeter is maybe my favorite place to run.

Just noticed on our run today that I ran a few segments faster than you....

It was a very nice run today.  I will say, though, that running in Forest Park back home is pretty comparable.  Will try to get you guys out there come relay time.

 

[The Iguana]

Ran a 5k today. Nothing amazing time wise but I had considered bailing because of a really nasty head cold. Felt good enough when I got up that it would have just been a bad excuse if I skipped. Only goal was to speed up a bit each mile. Only have my Fitbit on and have realized I kind of hate carrying the phone with me so only have estimates on mile splits but they are pretty accurate, assuming the course was marked correctly. Mile 1 was about 9:18, mile 2 complete at about 18:18 and official time was 28:05.96. So pace for the last 1.1 was 8:54. Temp was about 40, light rain and a semi muddy course but very manageable. About 30 seconds slower than a month ago but that's ok. Similar course, as far as being flat and similar conditions - probably a little more windy. Considering I can't breathe through my nose half the time, I'm good with it. Felt pretty easy for the most part although I did a crappy job of warming up so first 1k was still kind of in warm up mode. 

Different note, the course was interesting. Basically had a 1k loop that went south and a 1k loop that went north. Did the south loop 3x and the north loop 2x. I kind of liked the set up. Place was a but infested by moles but didn't really present the problems that I first thought it might. Couple corners were getting a little sloppy toward the end, however, that the repeated traffic and rain was not helping.

Slow and steady for the old fat guy but it's coming along. 

Did search athlinks the other day. Found that I ran a 5k in just under 24 minutes about 5.5 years ago. That was when I was really into crossfit but not really running a ton. Was probably about 15 or 20 pounds lighter and definitely in better cardio shape. It was also a really flat, fast road course. But let's me know I have a lot more in me, IMO. Just harder to find it as the years and pounds have mounted. But definitley feeling encouraged and we will see where things go! 

 

[Zasada]

Dear Strava,

Why don't you give me those fairy-tale pretend medals anymore when I PR specific distances?  You didn't give me one earlier in the week when I PR'd my 5K (only noticed because my profile updated) and today I ran my fastest 30K (not fast my any measure but still my fastest) and nothing.  Nothing.

Don't you know that those pseudo-pretend medals keep me motivated?

Sincerely,

Zasada

 

[gruecd]

Just noticed on our run today that I ran a few segments faster than you....

Awww @gianmarco, what little you know about me... 

#mentalnote

 

[Ocram]

Awww @gianmarco, what little you know about me... 

#mentalnote

Enjoy your flight to New York next week. 

 

[gianmarco]

Awww @gianmarco, what little you know about me... 

#mentalnote

Oh, I do.... That's why I mentioned it

 

[SFBayDuck]

I’m in Boise this weekend and tried to go out on the trails near downtown. But this damned frozen water stuff all over the ground up there made that a no-go for me, so I ended up turning around and running on (gasp!) roads. 

I think tomorrow I’ll just stick to the river path, or maybe cruise through BSU campus  

 

[Zegras11]

I’m in Boise this weekend and tried to go out on the trails near downtown. But this damned frozen water stuff all over the ground up there made that a no-go for me, so I ended up turning around and running on (gasp!) roads. 

I think tomorrow I’ll just stick to the river path, or maybe cruise through BSU campus  

Greenbelt along the river.... it's 18 miles long

 

[Zasada]

I’m in Boise this weekend and tried to go out on the trails near downtown. But this damned frozen water stuff all over the ground up there made that a no-go for me, so I ended up turning around and running on (gasp!) roads. 

I think tomorrow I’ll just stick to the river path, or maybe cruise through BSU campus  

For next time.

Pretty much a requirement here in Alberta Nov-Apr.

 

[bushdocda]

I’m in Boise this weekend and tried to go out on the trails near downtown. But this damned frozen water stuff all over the ground up there made that a no-go for me, so I ended up turning around and running on (gasp!) roads. 

I think tomorrow I’ll just stick to the river path, or maybe cruise through BSU campus  

I’m smack in the middle of unceasing damned non-frozen water stuff. Will drink enough tonight to make a rain run seem like a great idea tomorrow. 

 

[bushdocda]

Was out shopping a bit today (season of giving!) and ducked into a good running shop. Trying to be chill since already has my list but damn those Saucony Freedom iso2s almost came home with me at full price. Hadnt seen them in person before. Will be in all Sauconys in 2019 unless I spring for some of them fast floatride Reeboks but prefer a lower drop than they have. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Greenbelt along the river.... it's 18 miles long

Not far enough 

 

[Ocram]

Forgot how much trail running helps your quads and other muscles in your legs you forget about hurts.

Recovery run this morning was a little rough. 

 

[gianmarco]

Enjoy your flight to New York next week. 

I missed this.

Exactly!

 

[Zasada]

So I spent the weekend reading many websites/posts about how Higdon's marathon plan (which is what I'm using) is far inferior to pretty much anything else.  And I see @SteelCurtain is using Hanson's (which most sites think is awesome).  I'm five weeks from my Houston marathon attempt so it's not like I can switch at this point.

Panic!

 

[Juxtatarot]

So I spent the weekend reading many websites/posts about how Higdon's marathon plan (which is what I'm using) is far inferior to pretty much anything else.  And I see @SteelCurtain is using Hanson's (which most sites think is awesome).  I'm five weeks from my Houston marathon attempt so it's not like I can switch at this point.

Panic!

All the plans out there can make you successful.  Higdon's are fine.

You seemed to have adapted well to the long runs I've seen on Strava and that you've mentioned here.  At first I was skeptical about you running a marathon in a shorter number of training weeks than normal but I think you'll be fine.

No reason to panic.

 

[MAC_32]

So I spent the weekend reading many websites/posts about how Higdon's marathon plan (which is what I'm using) is far inferior to pretty much anything else.  And I see @SteelCurtain is using Hanson's (which most sites think is awesome).  I'm five weeks from my Houston marathon attempt so it's not like I can switch at this point.

Panic!

Where have you been reading that?  Granted I haven't ever followed a cookie cutter plan, but I modeled my spring attempt after the Higdon plan more than the others.

 

[Zasada]

All the plans out there can make you successful.  Higdon's are fine.

You seemed to have adapted well to the long runs I've seen on Strava and that you've mentioned here.  At first I was skeptical about you running a marathon in a shorter number of training weeks than normal but I think you'll be fine.

No reason to panic.

Thanks.  The long runs are definitely work for me but if I can just stay focused on *finishing* my first marathon I'm fairly confident.  I might have to walk a stretch or two (would like to avoid that if possible) but I'm pretty sure I can finish.  A bonus would be <4hrs but I'll leave that for how I feel during the race.

On my current plan I have one more 30+ km run to do and two 20km runs.  Funny how the latter seem like a relief when the former is the new "long run" standard.

@Juxtatarot I see your runs as they have been coming through the Strava feed but now just noticed how much of a machine you are.  No days off in the last 4 weeks and you're running roughly 90km+ a week.  Wow.  

 

[Zasada]

Where have you been reading that?  Granted I haven't ever followed a cookie cutter plan, but I modeled my spring attempt after the Higdon plan more than the others.

Won't list them all, but here are a few:

Reddit thread (to be taken with a grain of salt)

Random blog post

RunnersConnect Post (One of the more convincing ones)

One of the most deflating things I read in that last link (which made me feel like my 30km runs were not achieving what I hoped) was this body of text:

Hal Higdon’s plans follow the traditional marathon philosophy of running multiple slow, easy 20 milers. As you already know, I tend to believe that long, slow easy runs are overrated, especially for those running over 3:30 minutes or who are running less than 50 miles per week.

This is interesting:

Research has shown that your body doesn’t see a significant increase in aerobic development, specifically mitochondrial development, after you’ve been running for 2 hours. As a 3:45 marathoner, your easy long run pace is likely between 9:30 and 10:00 mile. So, a 20 miler will take you a little over 3 hours to finish.

Moreover, running all easy pace never challenges your aerobic threshold. Not one mile trains you to run at aerobic threshold.

You can’t improve an energy system if you never train it.

Finally, research has also shown that the longer your long runs, the greater your chance of injury.

By reducing your long runs (and getting more marathon specific) you can reduce injury risk and recovery time (allowing you to do more mileage and marathon-specific workouts during the week).

Our approach is to use marathon specific long runs, such as fast finish long runs and surge long runs, to better simulate the specific demands of the race while reducing wear and tear.

As an example, it’s easy for your body to burn fat as a fuel source when running slow (the energy demand isn’t high). However, to teach your body how to burn fat as a fuel source at marathon pace, you need to run at marathon pace while you’re already low on glycogen. This forces the body to use fat as a fuel source (at marathon pace) and therefore become more efficient at doing so.

20 miles of all easy running = 0 miles training to burn fat while running at marathon pace

16-18 miles with a 4-5 mile faster finish = 4 to 5 miles training to utilize fat as a fuel source while running at marathon pace.

I’ll admit, running 20 miles is good for muscular endurance. But, you never run at marathon pace while tired.

What does this mean?

Your muscular endurance is improved while running easy, but not when trying to run at marathon pace, which requires a different recruitment of muscle fibers. This approach is not very specific to what you’ll experience on race day and why your body isn’t capable of pushing through it.

Compare this to the muscular fatigue from a 16-18 miler with a fast finish.

You get 4-5 miles of running at marathon pace while tired.

 

[tri-man 47]

So I spent the weekend reading many websites/posts about how Higdon's marathon plan (which is what I'm using) is far inferior to pretty much anything else.  And I see @SteelCurtain is using Hanson's (which most sites think is awesome).  I'm five weeks from my Houston marathon attempt so it's not like I can switch at this point.

Panic!

Don't panic.  HIgdon's fine ...I used it for a number of my marathons.  Unless you're shooting for an aggressive goal and need specialized training, as @gruecd did with his sub-3:00 race, most any of the plans will suffice.  At heart, they're all quite similar - put in the miles, get in some long runs, work in some hills or intervals.  You have a particular advantage with the leg strength that comes from the mountain work.  That will mean a lot.  

Doing a bit of walking during the race is "allowed."  If nothing else, it helps to control the HR.  You could just walk through the aid stations to ensure you're getting in good fluids (instead of drinking on the run).  The fluids will be particularly important if you're at warmer temps than you're used to ...I see the heat acclimation as potentially the biggest issue you face.

eta: As I recall, Higdon mentions the consideration of finishing long runs at a faster pace, which is what the above link talks about (and fits grue's increasing-pace training runs).  So the simple adjustment is to pick up the pace at the end of the long runs.

 

[Zasada]

...I see the heat acclimation as potentially the biggest issue you face.

Yeah I'm hoping for 40-50 degrees at race time in Houston.  Which is normal for mid-Jan.  But it can also be 70+ (was that either last year or the year before) and that would put a big dent in things, given the humidity.

 

[gianmarco]

Man, it's going to be fun watching @Zasada smoke this thing.

Oh, @bushdocda, look what just dropped:  Our long awaited shoe....

 

[gianmarco]

Won't list them all, but here are a few:

Reddit thread (to be taken with a grain of salt)

Random blog post

RunnersConnect Post (One of the more convincing ones)

One of the most deflating things I read in that last link (which made me feel like my 30km runs were not achieving what I hoped) was this body of text:

Our approach is to use marathon specific long runs, such as fast finish long runs and surge long runs, to better simulate the specific demands of the race while reducing wear and tear.

As an example, it’s easy for your body to burn fat as a fuel source when running slow (the energy demand isn’t high). However, to teach your body how to burn fat as a fuel source at marathon pace, you need to run at marathon pace while you’re already low on glycogen. This forces the body to use fat as a fuel source (at marathon pace) and therefore become more efficient at doing so.

20 miles of all easy running = 0 miles training to burn fat while running at marathon pace

16-18 miles with a 4-5 mile faster finish = 4 to 5 miles training to utilize fat as a fuel source while running at marathon pace.

I’ll admit, running 20 miles is good for muscular endurance. But, you never run at marathon pace while tired.

What does this mean?

Your muscular endurance is improved while running easy, but not when trying to run at marathon pace, which requires a different recruitment of muscle fibers. This approach is not very specific to what you’ll experience on race day and why your body isn’t capable of pushing through it.

Compare this to the muscular fatigue from a 16-18 miler with a fast finish.

You get 4-5 miles of running at marathon pace while tired.

I have no marathon experience to help out with.  However, through reading this thread and getting input, especially from @MAC_32, i think the above quote is missing a very important component.  One of the reasons why Mac likes Higdon is the fact that you're doing the long run the day after doing speed work on Saturday.  He's pointed out to me on more than one occasion that the stacking of a long run right after a hard workout so that you're running on tired legs is one of the best things you can do to improve your performance.  And that makes sense.  You're not just running the last 4-5 miles on tired legs, you're supposed to be running the entire thing on tired legs. 

I recently linked an article here (I think) that mentioned that's exactly what a "recovery" run is.  It's not meant to clear lactic acid or make your muscles feel better.  It's meant to run slowly after a workout so that your body learns to recruit other less-used muscle fibers. 

The only reason I'd worry is if you hadn't been following the plan and doing your long runs the day after an SOS workout. 

My rookie $.02.

 

[gianmarco]

Recovery run article -- Real purpose of recovery runs

It is widely assumed that the purpose of recovery runs—which we may define as relatively short, slow runs undertaken within 24 hours after a harder run—is to facilitate recovery from preceding hard training. You hear coaches talk about how recovery runs increase blood flow to the legs, clearing away lactic acid, and so forth. The truth is that lactic acid levels return to normal within an hour after even the most brutal workouts.

Lactic acid doesn’t cause muscle fatigue in the first place, nor is there any evidence that the sort of light activity that a recovery run entails promotes muscle tissue repair, glycogen replenishment, or any other physiological response that actually is relevant to muscle recovery.

In short, recovery runs do not enhance recovery. Nevertheless, recovery runs are almost universally practiced by top runners. That would not be the case if this type of workout weren’t beneficial. So what is the real benefit of recovery runs?

The real benefit of recovery runs is that they increase your fitness—perhaps almost as much as longer, faster runs do—by challenging you to run in a pre-fatigued state (i.e. a state of lingering fatigue from previous training).

There is evidence that fitness adaptations occur not so much in proportion to how much time you spend exercising but rather in proportion to how much time you spend exercising beyond the point of initial fatigue in workouts. So-called “key” workouts (runs that are challenging in their pace or duration) boost fitness by taking your body well beyond the point of initial fatigue. Recovery workouts, on the other hand, are performed entirely in a fatigued state, and therefore also boost fitness despite being shorter and/or slower than key workouts.

Evidence of the special benefit of pre-fatigued exercise comes from an interesting study out of the University of Copenhagen, Denmark. In this study, subjects exercised one leg once daily and the other leg twice every other day. The total amount of training was equal for both legs, but the leg that was trained twice every other day was forced to train in a pre-fatigued state in the afternoon (recovery) workouts, which occurred just hours after the morning workouts. After several weeks of training in this split manner, the subjects engaged in an endurance test with both legs. The researchers found that the leg trained twice every other day increased its endurance 90 percent more than the other leg.

Additional research has shown that when athletes begin a workout with energy-depleted muscle fibers and lingering muscle damage from previous training, the brain alters the muscle recruitment patterns used to produce movement. Essentially, the brain tries to avoid using the worn-out muscle fibers and instead involve fresher muscle fibers that are less worn out precisely because they are less preferred under normal conditions. When your brain is forced out of its normal muscle recruitment patterns in this manner, it finds neuromuscular “shortcuts” that enable you to run more efficiently (using less energy at any given speed) in the future. Pre-fatigued running is sort of like a flash flood that forces you to alter your normal morning commute route. The detour seems a setback at first, but in searching for an alternative way to reach the office you might find a faster way—or at least a way that’s faster under conditions that negatively affect your normal route.

 

[gianmarco]

Don't panic.  HIgdon's fine ...I used it for a number of my marathons.  Unless you're shooting for an aggressive goal and need specialized training, as @gruecd did with his sub-3:00 race, most any of the plans will suffice.  At heart, they're all quite similar - put in the miles, get in some long runs, work in some hills or intervals.  You have a particular advantage with the leg strength that comes from the mountain work.  That will mean a lot.  

Doing a bit of walking during the race is "allowed."  If nothing else, it helps to control the HR.  You could just walk through the aid stations to ensure you're getting in good fluids (instead of drinking on the run).  The fluids will be particularly important if you're at warmer temps than you're used to ...I see the heat acclimation as potentially the biggest issue you face.

eta: As I recall, Higdon mentions the consideration of finishing long runs at a faster pace, which is what the above link talks about (and fits grue's increasing-pace training runs).  So the simple adjustment is to pick up the pace at the end of the long runs.

Yes.  Higdon calls it a 3/1 run.  You run the first 3/4ths of the run at your slower pace and then the last 1/4th at goal pace.  It's only found in his advanced plans and it's meant for experienced runners.  Which is why it also seems odd for that author to criticize his plan for lacking that training when it's actually in the plan. 

I should have done more 3/1 runs in preparation for my HM.  Probably another reason why I crashed for the last few miles.  As already stated, I was prepared to run the HM but not race it.  Based on what you're written, you're (smartly) looking to run this marathon, not race it. 

 

[Zasada]

I have no marathon experience to help out with.  However, through reading this thread and getting input, especially from @MAC_32, i think the above quote is missing a very important component.  One of the reasons why Mac likes Higdon is the fact that you're doing the long run the day after doing speed work on Saturday.  He's pointed out to me on more than one occasion that the stacking of a long run right after a hard workout so that you're running on tired legs is one of the best things you can do to improve your performance.  And that makes sense.  You're not just running the last 4-5 miles on tired legs, you're supposed to be running the entire thing on tired legs. 

I recently linked an article here (I think) that mentioned that's exactly what a "recovery" run is.  It's not meant to clear lactic acid or make your muscles feel better.  It's meant to run slowly after a workout so that your body learns to recruit other less-used muscle fibers. 

The only reason I'd worry is if you hadn't been following the plan and doing your long runs the day after an SOS workout. 

My rookie $.02.

I'm actually doing Higdon's Novice 2 Plan which has a rest day on Friday and the long run on Saturday.  On all three of my long (30k) runs, I have taken the rest day before.  Which kind of sucks, given the above logic.

Also I haven't been following the plan to the letter:

• Two of my three 30km runs were done on a day other than Saturday (because weather/life) 
  
• The plan has activities on five days of the week and in the last two weeks I have logged six days of activities in each
  
• The plan has me running ~54km weekly and in the last few weeks I've varied between 37 and 83 (avg 63)
  
• While I was in Toronto I didn't feel like running in the dark in a city I didn't know so I was all-treadmill, all the time (and tried to exceed the "effort" Higdon was recommending, so if it recommended an 8km run (which would normally be 40 minutes for me), I would do a 6km treadmill at 15% over 70 minutes)
  
• Some days of running have been trail runs, with reduced distance versus the plan but more elevation and longer duration (again, trying to match/exceed the equivalent "effort" of what Higdon was prescribing)
  

Geez after typing all that maybe I'm not really even following the plan at all.  More like the spirit of the plan.  Get the requisite number of long runs in and then equivalent/more effort for the other days. 

Not sure if I should be even more concerned now!  Hah.

I have two weeks of vacation starting at the end of this week and I plan to really hammer the miles/elevation during that time.  Then I move into taper pre-marathon.

 

[Zasada]

eta: As I recall, Higdon mentions the consideration of finishing long runs at a faster pace, which is what the above link talks about (and fits grue's increasing-pace training runs).  So the simple adjustment is to pick up the pace at the end of the long runs.

Thanks for this.  I will definitely incorporate over the next three weeks.

 

[JAA]

Don't panic.  HIgdon's fine ...I used it for a number of my marathons.  Unless you're shooting for an aggressive goal and need specialized training, as @gruecd did with his sub-3:00 race, most any of the plans will suffice.  At heart, they're all quite similar - put in the miles, get in some long runs, work in some hills or intervals.  You have a particular advantage with the leg strength that comes from the mountain work.  That will mean a lot.  

Doing a bit of walking during the race is "allowed."  If nothing else, it helps to control the HR.  You could just walk through the aid stations to ensure you're getting in good fluids (instead of drinking on the run).  The fluids will be particularly important if you're at warmer temps than you're used to ...I see the heat acclimation as potentially the biggest issue you face.

eta: As I recall, Higdon mentions the consideration of finishing long runs at a faster pace, which is what the above link talks about (and fits grue's increasing-pace training runs).  So the simple adjustment is to pick up the pace at the end of the long runs.

If you are putting in the time, dont panic.  What you need to make sure of if running your race.  Dont run someone elses race or run a race you cant run.  Run within yourself and you will do fine.

 

[brettdj]

Thanks guys - appreciate the experienced opinions.  It is frustrating because most of the time I feel pretty good and it's never bad enough where I'm in real pain, just annoying.

The nice thing for me is I cannot stand running in what I consider cold weather.  I'd much rather run when it's 60-70 out than 50 and below.  But I've lived in the South my entire life so the heat doesn't bother me (even if it may be affecting my runs).

I will not run below 70, 60's if sunny.  I just don't enjoy it enough to do it.  I will hit the indoor trainer until the temps are back up.

 

[JAA]

where do all the cool kids upload photos so they can be shared in thread like this?  I got some post surgery nasal shots im sure you folks will love

 

[JAA]

I will not run below 70, 60's if sunny.  I just don't enjoy it enough to do it.  I will hit the indoor trainer until the temps are back up.

I thought I was a running snob!

 

[JAA]

Funny I was just reading  @AAABatteries post.

Dude, hamstring injuries (and groins are a close 2nd) are the absolute worst.  They're so damn finicky; as you've experienced, just as you think its healed up, BAM it's back again.  You have to rest and rest more than you think you need to.  Don't stretch it, ice as much as you can stand, and let it heal on it's own.  Go see a good sports massage therapist.  I also wouldn't rule out going to a PT and getting them to work in it.

I know that feeling of "if I fall off the wagon I may not get back on", but if you keep going you're just going to make it worse.

I like Bromelain and Chelated Magnesium.  My groin injury was horrible, took months before I could jog again.  When I did I learned how to decrease my stride length and increase stride count.

Hamstrings are annoying, but .02 take the vits and ease back into it.

 

[JAA]

Went to the Podiatrist yesterday because I couldn’t put much weight on my left foot/ankle after the 11 miler Tuesday. He said I have Posterior Tibial Tendonitis, and recommended I get an x-ray. Also tried to put me in a walking boot but didn’t have one my size. He gave me some orthotics and told me not to run for 2 weeks. I’ve had some rough weeks after my half marathon. Haven’t been able to string together any runs. My Sciatica is killing me, and I think this is causing my left leg to pick up the slack. Which is having a negative impact on my surgically repaired knee. Which is spreading down to my leg/ankle/foot. Knee is really swollen along with my leg and foot. On top of all this, I’ve been really sick the last 2 and a half weeks. I just signed up for the Treasure Coast Marathon (same marathon I was a BMF last year). I planned to begin my training on Monday, not looking so well. Anyone deal with a pretty severe case of Posterior Tibial Tendonitis?

That is bull####

Well, whats bull#### is that Posterior Tibial Tendonitis is what I was diagnosed with.  Got the xray and everything.  My symptoms were(are) no lateral movement without significant pain.  I even had some swelling when I tried to breast stroke for a hundred yards or so.  I can swim(free)/bike/run with absolutely 0 issue.  Try to go side-to-side or twist, ouchie.

Its been like 3 months and I havnt worked out much, especially in the past 4 weeks.  Still have it, cant do any twisting to the outside of my right side.

Im 99.99% confident its a mis-diagnosed meniscus issue.  I will need a MRI for them to believe me.  Then it will be surgery and like 1 month off.

My advice?  Dont believe the doctor.  Get the xray as soon as possible, then get to the MRI.  The best thing of me getting an xray is doc showed me my knees were in great condition.  No bone-on-bone, lots of reasonable spacing and nothing that looked bad.  #adultonsetathlete

 

[SFBayDuck]

where do all the cool kids upload photos so they can be shared in thread like this?  I got some post surgery nasal shots im sure you folks will love

I usually just link to the image on Facebook, but I could see not wanting to put some nosejob pics there.  But I've also used image hosting sights like tinypic or https://imgur.com/upload

 

[MAC_32]

I'm actually doing Higdon's Novice 2 Plan which has a rest day on Friday and the long run on Saturday.  On all three of my long (30k) runs, I have taken the rest day before.  Which kind of sucks, given the above logic.

Also I haven't been following the plan to the letter:

• Two of my three 30km runs were done on a day other than Saturday (because weather/life) 
  
• The plan has activities on five days of the week and in the last two weeks I have logged six days of activities in each
  
• The plan has me running ~54km weekly and in the last few weeks I've varied between 37 and 83 (avg 63)
  
• While I was in Toronto I didn't feel like running in the dark in a city I didn't know so I was all-treadmill, all the time (and tried to exceed the "effort" Higdon was recommending, so if it recommended an 8km run (which would normally be 40 minutes for me), I would do a 6km treadmill at 15% over 70 minutes)
  
• Some days of running have been trail runs, with reduced distance versus the plan but more elevation and longer duration (again, trying to match/exceed the equivalent "effort" of what Higdon was prescribing)
  

Geez after typing all that maybe I'm not really even following the plan at all.  More like the spirit of the plan.  Get the requisite number of long runs in and then equivalent/more effort for the other days. 

Not sure if I should be even more concerned now!  Hah.

I have two weeks of vacation starting at the end of this week and I plan to really hammer the miles/elevation during that time.  Then I move into taper pre-marathon.

The bolded is totally normal and there's no reason to be concerned. Watching @Hang 10 say #### you I won't do what you tell me then demolishing Richmond last November motivated me to do my own plan in Spring.  The cookie cutter is there for guidance; it doesn't need to be gospel.  I'm not going to pretend to understand what sorta conditions you've been training through up there, but I don't think it's far fetched for me to say January-March in a lake effect snow magnet like Cleveland has at least some correlation.  In order to maximize effectiveness you have to adjust based on mother nature.  Cold is one thing, 4-12" of mostly untreated ice and snow is a completely different beast.  Knowing that was why I needed the nudge away from the cookie cutter and into my own flexible plan.  I tried to keep it to the spirit of some Higdon, some Hanson, and some pfitz, but it was always done with mother nature (and my own calendar) in mind.

 

[MAC_32]

I have no marathon experience to help out with.  However, through reading this thread and getting input, especially from @MAC_32, i think the above quote is missing a very important component.  One of the reasons why Mac likes Higdon is the fact that you're doing the long run the day after doing speed work on Saturday.  He's pointed out to me on more than one occasion that the stacking of a long run right after a hard workout so that you're running on tired legs is one of the best things you can do to improve your performance.  And that makes sense.  You're not just running the last 4-5 miles on tired legs, you're supposed to be running the entire thing on tired legs. 

But @Zasada this reminds me - if you're not ready then don't force this.  We all want to run the marathon as fast as we can, but fact is most 'fail' in their first attempt.  They try to do more than they're currently capable.  This is why you see others in what you linked having success their 3rd and 4th times through.  It's not because they're doing a better program.  They're just more experienced.  They're able to effectively do more in their training.  Racing is just a function of the work you put in your training - the race is for all intents and purposes a victory lap.

@gianmarco is exactly right about why I've trended more and more towards Higdon.  But even in my spring program I had to modify it to be a little easier than it was written, so I could effectively complete each sequence. I tried in week 14 doing 10 at goal pace the day before a 17.  My body told me about 11-12 miles into that 17 that I could not do what's prescribed next week - 12 at goal pace with 20 the next day.  So I did the 12 at pace but squeezed in a 6 mile recovery between the pace run and the final long 20.  Then I felt at mile 14 of the 20 like I did at mile 11 of the previous weeks 17.  Those last 6 miles were a grind - and they were supposed to be.  But I worry that anymore may have led to an injury - a 9 mile grind has me tugging at my collar, which is why I think i was correct to audible.  And there was absolutely no way I could have done any of that in training for my first marathon attempt in 16. 

I'm now to the point in which I think I can do that sequence, but I wasn't there yet in March. I totally understand the concerns with Higdon's mid-week structure and actually don't disagree.  But only for vets.  For newbs just focus on mastering the weekend.  Save the focus on the mid-week work once you're into the sequels.

 

[JAA]

Thanks @SFBayDuck!

Ok here are the pics of my post MIST surgery:  https://imgur.com/a/U90Hive

First pic is immediately post surgery from the hospital.  I now know why folks love and get hooked on fentanyl.  I had some in the recovery room and it was an out of body experience.

The three middle pics are my nose the first 2 days.  Full on blood drip where I had to change my dressing three times a day.  I am not built for bleeding all day long for multiple days.  I simply dont have it in my DNA to manage and maintain sanity.  I cant understand how some people deal with that.

The last pic was my last day when the full on bleeding stopped.  I was happy.

What I dont have pics of is the objects I have been blowing and pulling out of my nose the past 2 weeks.  These "clots" as my wife has referred to them as are, i guess creepy.  Every couple days I can feel a semi-blockage in my nose.  After some hard blowing I get this solid, silicone like, object whcih comes out my nose.  Sometimes is the size of a dime, other times the size of a nickel.  On time, last week it was larger than a quarter.  I was in the work bathroom and blew my nose a bit.  I got some thick mucous coming out of my nose.  When I used the tissue to pull it out, attached to it was this quarter size "clot".  I didnt believe it.  I coudnt believe it.  It was disgusting.  It still is disgusting.

Verdict is still out on if I am a bionic man yet.  While the nasal passages are wider and I can tell Im flowing much more air, they still hurt.  I still get blood in all my mucous ... lots of mucous.  I still get minor sinus headaches after lunch.  Overall I can tell Im healing but damn its been almost 3 weeks.  Im ready for this to be over.  I havnt swam or did weights since the procedure.

 

[bushdocda]

Man, it's going to be fun watching @Zasada smoke this thing.

Oh, @bushdocda, look what just dropped:  Our long awaited shoe....

Thanks, nice it looks like ship date is 1/2 - I’ll probably wait to see in store and compare against 9s and the freedom2s I now covet. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

But @Zasada this reminds me - if you're not ready then don't force this.  We all want to run the marathon as fast as we can, but fact is most 'fail' in their first attempt.  They try to do more than they're currently capable.  This is why you see others in what you linked having success their 3rd and 4th times through.  It's not because they're doing a better program.  They're just more experienced.  They're able to effectively do more in their training.  Racing is just a function of the work you put in your training - the race is for all intents and purposes a victory lap.

@Zasada  seems to have the right approach for this one.  His primary goal is to finish.  Not worrying so much about having a fast time and getting the practice in with several long runs makes the likelihood for a successful first marathon much higher. 

 

[gianmarco]

Thanks, nice it looks like ship date is 1/2 - I’ll probably wait to see in store and compare against 9s and the freedom2s I now covet. 

How do the Freedoms compare to the Kinvara?

I will say that the Kinvara 9 has me completely spoiled.  As much as I loved the 8, the 9 is that much better that I only want to run in those now. 

Speaking of which, I picked up another pair of 8's recently from Saucony as they were under $70.  I ran with them this past weekend in Central Park and there's something wrong with the left shoe.  There's a ridge under my toes and by the time I was done, my 3rd toe was killing me and hurt to walk on it yesterday.  I already contacted Saucony today and need to get these replaced.  Definitely something wrong with the shoe.  I'm hoping they make this a pain-free process.

 

[bushdocda]

@Zasada I agree you’ll be fine. The training you’ve been doing and your crazy mountain base are going to serve you well in Houston. The long Higdon runs taught me a lot mentally and physically but I think you are accustomed to long endurance feats with your hiking history already.  You sound like you are on the right track as far as finishing cycle strong and getting to the start line rested.  

 

[Zasada]

But @Zasada this reminds me - if you're not ready then don't force this.  We all want to run the marathon as fast as we can, but fact is most 'fail' in their first attempt.  They try to do more than they're currently capable.  This is why you see others in what you linked having success their 3rd and 4th times through.  It's not because they're doing a better program.  They're just more experienced.  They're able to effectively do more in their training.  Racing is just a function of the work you put in your training - the race is for all intents and purposes a victory lap. 

Yes, trying to keep my expectations/goals quite low.  Various race predictors suggest that, based on my 1:47 HM, I should be able to run a full in 3:44.  I have zero desire/expectations of even aiming for that.  My HM was as perfect as I could have ever hoped to run (ran a flat pace for almost the whole thing, but not one more km was in me by the finish).  Dreaming of two perfect races in a row (and also as my first two) is unrealistic.

Thus, the primary goal is to finish.  Even if it requires some walking.  Once I allow walking to enter the equation, I'm positive that I can achieve that.

Secondary goal is to see if I can do sub-4hrs.  I plan to run a 5:30 pace at the start (sub-4 requires a 5:40 pace) and see if I can hold that.  If I can, great.  If I can't, then I will sacrifice speed to ensure a finish.

My last long run (32km) is 12 days away.  I will try to run that close to 5:30 and it will give me a good idea of what is possible.

Appreciate all the tips, advice, and (most importantly) positive reinforcement here.  Love you guys.

 

[tri-man 47]

I have two weeks of vacation starting at the end of this week and I plan to really hammer the miles/elevation during that time.  Then I move into taper pre-marathon.

A late blitz can have a powerful impact, so yeah, go for it!  Just remember to stretch and stay loose after and between the runs so you don't injure yourself.  

 

[bushdocda]

How do the Freedoms compare to the Kinvara?

I will say that the Kinvara 9 has me completely spoiled.  As much as I loved the 8, the 9 is that much better that I only want to run in those now. 

Speaking of which, I picked up another pair of 8's recently from Saucony as they were under $70.  I ran with them this past weekend in Central Park and there's something wrong with the left shoe.  There's a ridge under my toes and by the time I was done, my 3rd toe was killing me and hurt to walk on it yesterday.  I already contacted Saucony today and need to get these replaced.  Definitely something wrong with the shoe.  I'm hoping they make this a pain-free process.

Haven’t tested freedom2s yet but just from the site description of more cushion and seeing them in person (very light and handsome shoe) the other day, they will get a test when I’m off over the holidays. I wouldn’t mind mining in more cushion for the pavement pushin’ as ive upped mileage over time and want to stay there. 

 

[-OZ-]

 One of the reasons why Mac likes Higdon is the fact that you're doing the long run the day after doing speed work on Saturday.  He's pointed out to me on more than one occasion that the stacking of a long run right after a hard workout so that you're running on tired legs is one of the best things you can do to improve your performance.  

Yes.  Higdon calls it a 3/1 run.  You run the first 3/4ths of the run at your slower pace and then the last 1/4th at goal pace.  It's only found in his advanced plans and it's meant for experienced runners.  

This was probably a weak link in my past training. With similar results you said. 

So yesterday was 12.5 with 6 one Mile intervals, today was 20.2 with the last 4 increasing effort. Not quite 3/1, I should have picked up the last 5 instead of last 4, but oh well. 

I'll assume there's not a LOT of difference between the marathon and 50k training. Of course I'm just looking to run the event in two weeks not race it. It's all about getting one long run in before tri season kicks in. 

 

[-OZ-]

 next time apply the icy hot after the hemorrhoid cream.

 

[Zasada]

@SteelCurtain congratulations on 3,000 miles!  That's so incredible.  And you hit it with a run that I would not have done.  That cold and windy would have kept me inside.

Can't wait to see your Boston performance.  I know it's a few months away but you're going to destroy it.

 

[gruecd]

Today's non-running-related PSA from someone (me) who's currently dealing with an identity theft situation:  Unless you're planning on applying for credit in the immediate future, go online TODAY and freeze your credit with all three of the major credit bureaus, along with NCTUE and ChexSystems.  Perhaps if I'd done this earlier I wouldn't have a fraudulent Kay Jewelers credit card account and a fraudulent AT&T Wireless account (plus whatever other accounts I haven't discovered yet)... 

There's a special place in hell for these #######s... 

 

[tri-man 47]

Today's non-running-related PSA from someone (me) who's currently dealing with an identity theft situation:  Unless you're planning on applying for credit in the immediate future, go online TODAY and freeze your credit with all three of the major credit bureaus, along with NCTUE and ChexSystems.  Perhaps if I'd done this earlier I wouldn't have a fraudulent Kay Jewelers credit card account and a fraudulent AT&T Wireless account (plus whatever other accounts I haven't discovered yet)... 

There's a special place in hell for these #######s... 

Sorry to hear!

And: Done (this has the links to all three credit bureaus)

Something didn't go right with Experian, so I need to mail stuff to them, but Equifax and TransUnion were quick, easy, and free on-line processes.

 

[gruecd]

Sorry to hear!

And: Done (this has the links to all three credit bureaus)

Something didn't go right with Experian, so I need to mail stuff to them, but Equifax and TransUnion were quick, easy, and free on-line processes.

You should do NCTUE and ChexSystems, too.  NCTUE is apparently the one that most cell phone companies use.